Character Competitive Impressions

[Smog Frog]

"Even Swordfighter?"
"Especially Swordfighter"

barring some exceptions

 

[Ffamran]

The very nature of heavies makes it hard to make them viable. Only games I ever played where heavies are good is when they have amazing tools that force characters to play their game.

Potemkin in GG is the best example. But his options are pretty insane. Unblockable ground pound that forces opponents to jump. He has an anti-projectile barrier so zoning just doesnt work that well. AA grab that does serious damage. Insane normals that beat EVERYTHING except swords and invincible normals.

Basically the mitigating factor is HORRIBLE mobility because in most fighters being able to get around easily means alot.

The heavies in this game are just TOO weak in neutral. That's why imo DK is the strongest heavy. Solid mobility and pokes. Great defensive option with his up b.

He def loses to several top tiers which hurts him alot though.

In general, heavies and slow weapons, vehicles, and such are usually not that viable in any game unless something is done to make them substantially great like the Biggoron Sword in Ocarina of Time which granted, wasn't slower than the Master Sword, but the fact that you lose the Master Sword in the final battle for period of time, the Biggoron Sword doing twice the damage of the Master Sword, and its reach was enough for people to go without a shield and technically, you don't even need the shield for most of the game, except for the Spirit Temple and the Spirit Barrier part of Ganondorf's Castle.

Darksiders 2 had heavy weapons that dealt more damage per hit and covered a wider area than claws, gauntlets, and bucklers the other secondary weapon. Why were they not used? DPS. The damage per second you got from using your scythes and the hand-to-hand secondary weapons were insane. Oh, and there were a set of "weak" hand-to-hand weapons that had the ability to stall you in the air and I believe, stun enemies in the air. In a more combo and I want to wreck **** environment, there is no reason to use the heavy weapons.

Have you seen people Jump Cancel Dante's/Vergil's Beowulf's Beehive/Starfall? It's fast and powerful unlike the rest of Beowulf's moveset. People still did it with Dante's Gilgamesh which basically had a different name for the same move: Full House. With JC, there is no end-lag, so being able to spam a powerful move like that makes a lot of other moves moot unless you're actually trying to style the game.

This was also another reason why Terra suffered in Birth by Sleep in comparison to Ventus, the speedy wind, light elemental kid with the famous Dodge Roll and Aqua, the powerful magician with the infamous Cartwheel. So, you had a kid who could run circles around people and hit them left and right without them knowing where he was and a Keyblade Master who had powerful magic, could one-shot people - I think she can -, cover a large area with magic, and had a dodge with a lot of I-frames. What does Terra have? Oh, yeah, good natural melee range and "powerful" hits. Did I mention he had Dark Knight qualities, so he could hurt himself to do more "damage" or that he was slow as sin on foot or that his Dash was slow as a dodge? Yeah, people hated using Terra for the more insane boss fights.

So, with heavies, you have to do something insane to give them a strong edge. Ike has good range, air speed, and attack speed for a heavy which makes him viable, especially in comparison to the other heavies. Ganondorf is on the right track for a mighty glacier, but that would have been better if SSB wasn't so keen on mobility. Do customs help, yes, but only if tournaments allow them. At this rate, Ganondorf will be a read-heavy character and that means if someone plays perfectly against Ganondorf, then Ganondorf has no chance. Bowser is mobile, but his attacks aren't, especially his infamous Side Smash. Oh, it's telegraphed, but if it hits, that's if it hits, then it will destroy you.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

To be clear @ Budget Player Cadet_ you are suggesting Bowser will lose to someone staying directly under where he's going to land and holding shield.

Not necessarily. Sit there and block is probably the wrong way of putting it; it's more of a "sit there and react". It's certainly better against him than against a heck of a lot of other characters, though. If I think about most of the matchups I've played recently, I can't name one where it works better. No, the real problem comes from characters who can punish your landing with a projectile which knocks you around enough to be a problem, or combos into a situational reset. Megaman really is the worst offender here, and I will contend that that is quite possibly the most horribly lopsided matchup in the game. And then there's Rosalina, and Lucario, and Diddy, and...

Other than aerial mobility, Bowser has pretty much the best possible tools to help him get down; if he has great difficulty, who has it easy?

Anyone with a decent juke (ZSS, Sheik, Diddy, Pika, that Frog-Ninja-Thing, Fox, Peach, etc.), anyone with item projectiles they can drop (Diddy, Link, Tink, Peach), anyone with really solid air movement (Yoshi, Shulk, Jiggs, Wario), anyone with long-ranged and/or relatively safe aerials (Sheik, Luigi, probably others I'm missing), anyone with a special that provides a safe landing option...

Bowser's tools for getting down include a mediocre, low-damage in-front-of-him projectile that isn't going to stop anything substantial, two stall-then-falls which are both horribly unsafe on block and reasonably easy to react to, a really laggy air command grab with lousy range, and his fair, which is worse for landing than aerials from a great many characters I could name. Now add that his fall speed is middling and his air speed is abysmal. This is a recipe for someone who gets destroyed on landing.

Also will someone please explain this 20xx meme to me?

 

[Kofu]

I go back and forth on my opinion of Charizard. On one hand he feels really ridiculous between his run speed, absurd grab range, various armored/partial invincibility moves, and high power. On the other hand, you get him in disadvantage and he feels very limited. He has options to get out of juggles but they're high commitment for him and if he uses the wrong one he's even more screwed. Plus he feels like he has the worst hurtbox in the game...

I don't think Bowser's throws are terrible. I think they can be favorably compared to Jigglypuff's in that they don't directly lead into anything but deal heavy damage (as do both characters' pummels) and give him positional advantage. His almost seem better because both his FThrow and BThrow will kill near the ledge.

EDIT: Shulk has good air movement? Maybe in Jump/Speed arts, but even then he can't weave worth beans.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I think the point is while mistakes do happen, a lot of light characters still punish better than heavies. And "perfect play" only becomes more and more attainable the longer a game's competitive lifespan lasts.

How often do players counterpick from a light/medium to a heavy character? That sort of thing.

Eh I think the problem for Heavies is really mid-weights.

As for the extremes
Jiggly,Kirby, G&W, Rosaluma, Pikachu, Olimar, Fox

vs
Charizard, Ganon, Bowser, DDD, Bowser Jr, Donkey Kong.

Yes Rosa, Pika and Fox stand out among the roster but I'd say it's not particularly bad for heavies.

 

[thehard]

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, the heavies are good, I just think they have more pronounced weaknesses (which become significantly mitigated with customs) than the other weight classes. It's always harder to play patient/punish than rushdown, especially if you're just starting out.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, the heavies are good, I just think they have more pronounced weaknesses (which become significantly mitigated with customs) than the other weight classes. It's always harder to play patient/punish than rushdown, especially if you're just starting out.

Of those LW's though only Pika and Fox really rushdown...

 

[NairWizard]

Whenever people try to slow play me with Charizard, I just use lots and lots of Flamethrower. It's pretty much completely safe, and I'm content to win very slowly this way if you want to slow play me since to be honest Flamethrower is easier to land than Thunder Jolt if we're both not approaching at all.

*raises eyebrow* Huh? This here makes me wonder if you've even played the matchup at all.

Flamethrower isn't safe at all; saying that it's easier to land than Thunderjolt is a little bit crazy. If you Flamethrower and I'm out of Flamethrower range, Quick Attack is a free punish on the Flamethrower. Pikachu can jump or angle QA so that it goes over the Flamethrower (or under if angled up; but if it's angled up or diminished a little bit and angled straight forward, Pikachu can actually run under it and up-smash). This is bad for Charizard in every conceivable way because he becomes completely stationary and I can land wherever I want with QA to start my combo as I please. Flamethrower is a situational tool against Pikachu at best, not something you want to be throwing out in neutral. Flamethrower also does not create openings for Charizard, because he can't act immediately afterwards.

Tjolt, on the other hand, does create openings for Pikachu, as it forces a response from Charizard that Pikachu can punish. And there's nothing Charizard has that will punish me for Tjolting, not even Dragon Rush (go ahead, try it, I will dodge every time).

Dragon Rush will also catch Pikachu trying to run away with Quick Attack very well, but even if I have Blast Burn (or heaven forbid Flare Blitz) you had better be careful not to leave yourself open to dash attacks which isn't exactly easy.

Dragon Rush is much better than Flare Blitz, but it still won't catch Pikachu out of QA. You underestimate QA if you think it's so punishable that Flare Blitz can consistently punish it. QA is just flat out better than most punishers. If you shield it and Pikachu goes over your shield, the time it takes you to unshield and punish is greater than Pikachu's endlag and Pikachu can safely move away from whatever you're going to hit with afterwards. If you try to aerial it, oftentimes it'll just go through your aerial anyway and Pikachu won't get hit. And finally, if you actually get hit by it, there's non-trivial hitstun, and you won't be able to punish in time. Yes, Quick Attack is that dumb. Characters who can contest with QA are characters with great OOS options like Villager n-air, but even that is more prediction than reaction. Charizard has...up-b out of shield, and if he whiffs he's free to anything from charged up/f-smash to Thunder.

Yeah when you watch someone like Charizard lose it's mostly him getting smacked around a lot by someone way faster, but that doesn't mean he couldn't have won if things had gone just a bit differently.

60:40 in general doesn't mean that "you couldn't have won if things had gone just a bit differently." Obviously no one is saying that Charizard just falls over and dies flailing helplessly "o woe is me, Pikachu is too strong!" But Pikachu has a solid advantage, and at high level, a skilled Pikachu vs. a skilled Charizard matchup favors the Pikachu player to win.

There are tons of matchups that Pikachu should have more trouble with than Charizard, of all things.

At least, not for the reasons listed here. If anything, you can talk about how Charizard has passable edgeguarding against Pikachu, or how having a kill throw makes it difficult to get a grab in on Charizard in order to get the KO, but Flamethrower and punishing QA? That's definitely the wrong path, imo.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Yes, but his ledge options are also crap. And while few characters really have safe landing options, few have the completely cluster**** that is Bowser's:
- abysmal air speed (means he's gonna eat more punishment before he gets to the ledge)
- Really laggy aerials with mediocre low-angled hitboxes
's bad. Real bad.

Just to give you a heads up bowser has the same air speed as toon link, villager and ness.

iv never had trouble di'ing to safty with bowser expecially if that means they have to hit me from the side to combo. witch can be punished by reatreting fairs or bairs depending on where your facing.
i can't help but feel your adding a bit to much hyperbole to this.

 

[TriTails]

Luigi's mobility is decent: Not bad, but worth noting that it's a weakness when you take into account he doesn't have the versatility to mix up his approaches beyond using Cyclone.

Luigi's mobility is straight bad. Not decent or anything. I mean, yay for...
-> 2nd highest jumping height!
-> Cyclone boosts ground mobility!
-> Traction slides him so far when he dash cancel!
-> 2nd longest PP! (Never seen it in tourneys though)

But meh for...
-> Below average dashing speed (30th out of 48 characters, tied with Wario, Kirby, and Ike. Wario and Kirby have stubby legs, and Ike is carrying a huge freaking dang sword man. Why the hell Luigi is as slow as them?)
-> 2nd slowest air speed. Like, WTF Nintendo?
-> Traction makes things awkward
-> Cyclone is punishable
-> Bad acceleration and deceleration (?)

Eh, he can mix up his approaches with something like PP(?) or just spaced B-airs in general, Missile if you're real, but I get your point.

But if he can't grab you Luigi legitimately struggles because the only other way he's going to combo you is with N-air and good luck getting that in during neutral.

U-tilt. And Luigi doesn't need to combos to hit hard (Those attacks' damage outputs man). And there is always the U-smash combo for those who is desperate .

Luigi's recovery is only amazing if you can do Jumpless Cyclone, which is something that only special humans can do. Otherwise his recovery does have holes in it and is exploitable.

Doesn't matter because MUs are assuming both players can use their characters to their full potential, and the legendary Jumpless Cyclone is neccesary for full potential Luigi .

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Just to give you a heads up bowser has the same air soeed as toon link, villager and ness.

iv never had trouble di'ing to safty with bowser expecially if that means they half to hit me from the side to combo. witch can be punished by reatreting fiars or bairs depending on where your facing.
i can't help but feel your adding a bit to much hyperbole to this.

How's his air acceleration? IIRC, this is a different stat, and perhaps the more relevant one when you're being juggled.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

How's his air acceleration? IIRC, this is a different stat, and perhaps the more relevant one when you're being juggled.

ah his air accereation and deceleration? im not sure is some one fully calculated this yet. it might mean somthing more. but i know it not to be as bad as characters like shulk and zard thats for sure.

 

[Pazx]

Just to give you a heads up bowser has the same air soeed as toon link, villager and ness.

iv never had trouble di'ing to safty with bowser expecially if that means they half to hit me from the side to combo. witch can be punished by reatreting fiars or bairs depending on where your facing.
i can't help but feel your adding a bit to much hyperbole to this.

Toon Link has projectiles and quick disjointed moves, Villager has projectiles and zoning tools as well as a frame 3 nair (and a decent dair), Ness has good aerial deceleration and a far smaller hurtbox.

@ ChronoPenguin the only notoriously "bad" lightweight character is Kirby. Puff has an immense punish and offstage game, Olimar came second at APEX, and G&W has some throw combo shenanigans (which are undoubtedly easier on heavies) and oil panic which is currently a huge threat in teams. I'm not convinced any of them are worse than the heavies in general.

 

[FullMoon]

Luigi's mobility is straight bad. Not decent or anything. I mean, yay for...
-> 2nd highest jumping height!
-> Cyclone boosts ground mobility!
-> Traction slides him so far when he dash cancel!
-> 2nd longest PP! (Never seen it in tourneys though)

I thought the second highest jump height was Greninja's?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Toon Link has projectiles and quick disjointed moves, Villager has projectiles and zoning tools as well as a frame 3 nair (and a decent dair), Ness has good aerial deceleration and a far smaller hurtbox.

@ ChronoPenguin the only notoriously "bad" lightweight character is Kirby. Puff has an immense punish and offstage game, Olimar came second at APEX, and G&W has some throw combo shenanigans (which are undoubtedly easier on heavies) and oil panic which is currently a huge threat in teams. I'm not convinced any of them are worse than the heavies in general.

i already wrote out bowsers options durring reatreat di'ing and they works fairly well. im just saying bowser landing options. well not fantastic get the job done. and beside toonlinks projectiles dont really get im out of juggles or is air buttons.

@ FullMoon
you are correct

1 falco
2 greninja
3 zzs

 

[TriTails]

@ ChronoPenguin the only notoriously "bad" lightweight character is Kirby. Puff has an immense punish and offstage game, Olimar came second at APEX, and G&W has some throw combo shenanigans (which are undoubtedly easier on heavies) and oil panic which is currently a huge threat in teams. I'm not convinced any of them are worse than the heavies in general.

Falco? Little Mac? (82 weight value. Kirby is 77)

I thought the second highest jump height was Greninja's?

Er.... I tried to test him with Luigi (And Sheik) and they look the same...

But oh well, whatever. Luigi already jumps pretty darn high anyway.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Toon Link has projectiles and quick disjointed moves, Villager has projectiles and zoning tools as well as a frame 3 nair (and a decent dair), Ness has good aerial deceleration and a far smaller hurtbox.

@ ChronoPenguin the only notoriously "bad" lightweight character is Kirby. Puff has an immense punish and offstage game, Olimar came second at APEX, and G&W has some throw combo shenanigans (which are undoubtedly easier on heavies) and oil panic which is currently a huge threat in teams. I'm not convinced any of them are worse than the heavies in general.

Im not saying they're worse then heavies.

 

[Ffamran]

Well, @zCyRo found this out about Falco's Fair. Yay, footstool shenanigans. I can't wait for this to be patched out like Falco's Fair spiking with fastfalling... Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zQksk1c50U.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Well, @zCyRo found this out about Falco's Fair. Yay, footstool shenanigans. I can't wait for this to be patched out like Falco's Fair spiking with fastfalling... Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zQksk1c50U.

can we dub that the cyro combo?

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I miss Falco's fair fastfall shenanigans...

 

[Asdioh]

the only notoriously "bad" lightweight character is Kirby

What are you talking about dude? Have you seen Kirby's meta advancement lately? Are you ready for the return of.... Backthrowcides a la Melee??!!

http://puu.sh/fCCtn/9ac92abc31.webm

 

[FullMoon]

What are you talking about dude? Have you seen Kirby's meta advancement lately? Are you ready for the return of.... Backthrowcides a la Melee??!!

http://puu.sh/fCCtn/9ac92abc31.webm

Oh man that must've sucked.

 

[Nobie]

Re: Bowser in the air conversation

1) Down Air and Down B have different fall timings which can screw up attempts to counter them
2) I'm not hearing a lot about Neutral Air, which I would assume is his best method for getting down
3) Do you really want to deal with Bowser in the air too much when Back Air auto-cancels and kills at dumb percents? If you decide not to change, then Bowser can simply land and attack from the ground.

 

[NairWizard]

It just occurred to me that if Captain Falcon had Quick Attack, he would be the best character in the game bar none. Scary.

 

[Kofu]

Re: Bowser in the air conversation

1) Down Air and Down B have different fall timings which can screw up attempts to counter them
2) I'm not hearing a lot about Neutral Air, which I would assume is his best method for getting down
3) Do you really want to deal with Bowser in the air too much when Back Air auto-cancels and kills at dumb percents? If you decide not to change, then Bowser can simply land and attack from the ground.

1. This is true. Honestly, the best way to catch Bowser landing is to stay just out of his range but close enough to punish. DAir is fairly difficult to challenge (but possible!) because of its fall speed and hefty damage, while Bowser Bomb has a good chance of breaking a shield. They both also have shockwaves that make direct ground confrontations challenging, although jumping makes this easier.
2. Not really. NAir doesn't have a finishing hit and deals poor hitstun. Most characters can take then hit then hit back before Biwser gets safe because NAir has bad ending lag.
3. Bowser's aerials have good range but have poor recovery times. It can be risky to challenge him in the air, yes, but the same can be said for most characters. When he's put into the air, he's at disadvantage, not you. (Kind of makes me want his huge janky aerial side-b hitbox back lol.)

 

[Conda]

Toon Link has projectiles and quick disjointed moves, Villager has projectiles and zoning tools as well as a frame 3 nair (and a decent dair), Ness has good aerial deceleration and a far smaller hurtbox.

@ ChronoPenguin the only notoriously "bad" lightweight character is Kirby. Puff has an immense punish and offstage game, Olimar came second at APEX, and G&W has some throw combo shenanigans (which are undoubtedly easier on heavies) and oil panic which is currently a huge threat in teams. I'm not convinced any of them are worse than the heavies in general.

Olimar didn't come second at Apex. It was heavy Rosalina with Olimar used only a couple of times. Can't misrepresent the results. Afaik Oli was used to beat M2K's diddy, but couldn't beat ZeRo's diddy. And that's all Olimar really did. Olimar didn't make it to second alone the way AMSA's greninja, Abadango's PacMan, etc made it to the top 16/8.

 

[Yonder]

I've been siliently editing for a while on microsoft word my own little tier list. I'll post what I have so far.

Top tier:
High tier:
Upper Middle tier:

Lower Middle tier:

Low tier: [Default]
Not ranked: [Customs]



Of note:

may be surpassed in the future by or if his recovery is exploited enough. Or his HOO HAA throw gets patched That's all it'll take.

Brawler edges Falcon out just because Shotput basically.

Villager is tricky, great, and I can see him replacing Pikachu's position on my list. Underrated.

Lucario is still potent. Aura is like having Marth's tippers on all the time. And he has the mobility and spotdodges to avoid attacks for a while.

Duck Hunt I think will be more threatening when his projectiles are exploited to the max. MVD has shown us a good Duck Hunt

ROB is underrated, amazing projectiles, weight, usable recovery, amazing Up air and D throw to set it up at times, and solid kill power. Some bad matchups like Fox [reflector + jab lock] holds him back though.

Pit and Lame Pit are the jack of all trades [sides amazing recovery] and master of none. I don't see them moving at all.

Shulk is going to wreck face soon with the best overall range in game and proper monado art use. I expect high tier soon.

Bowser is getting a lot of unnecessary criticism. He has awesome ground mobility, takes forever to kill, fair is fantastic offstage, and bair doing 19% is no joke when it comes out fast with range. Just don't use him against characters like Sheik, ZSS, where he can get blitzed with speed.

Mac's recovery really IS that crippling. He has to approach too with his lack of range. Throws are underwhelming and only nair is pretty much usable in the air.

Game and Watch: Fantastic edgeguarder. Bucket great in certain matchups[Lucario, Ness] but doesn't hit hard and dies too quickly. Potential though. At least bacon is usable in this game.

Lucina is the most pointless character in this game, sadly. No reason to use her over Marth. Even though Marth was nerfed at least tippers are still scary.

Not ranking Olimar. I know he's better on the Wii U version due to stupid AI on the 3DS version, the only version I have. Otherwise I'd put him last.

No customs were taken into account during this tier list. Otherwise everyone "would be top 15." lol.

There are no bottom tiers in this game.

 

[Conda]

My Customs-on tier list.

Top 15:


Bottom:

 

[ParanoidDrone]

In Swordsman's defense, I think customs let him be the only sword wielder with a reflector. Unless you count Pit/Dark Pit as swordsmen I guess?

 

[Smog Frog]

My Customs-on tier list.

Top 15:


Bottom:

zelda's customs are ****ing **** tho lol

 

[Kofu]

In Swordsman's defense, I think customs let him be the only sword wielder with a reflector. Unless you count Pit/Dark Pit as swordsmen I guess?

Swordsman's reflector is much better than the Pits' reflector(s) anyway. At least specifically for reflecting projectiles. The Pits have various other things going for them, though. Like, you know, range and speed.

I'd stick Zelda down there with Swordfighter BTW.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

In Swordsman's defense, I think customs let him be the only sword wielder with a reflector. Unless you count Pit/Dark Pit as swordsmen I guess?

Its the same as Mario's cape, gimp capabilities and all. Pit cannot replicate that as Orbitars do not have a cape effect.
Power thrust also does 13% alternatively

If I recall you can also drag them down while they're being hit by F-air, land and get a dtilt off.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

zelda's customs are ****ing **** tho lol

there actually not bad. they just don't solve any of her core issues. phantom breaker is to be respected. and i guess that dins fire mines thing can be use full for edge gaurding.

 

[Antonykun]

zelda's customs are ****ing **** tho lol

That's the joke.
Also can we stop talking about Miis like they have customs? Either they are allowed with (at least) all their moves or they are not allowed at all. Anything in the middle is a spit in the face for the guys.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I've been siliently editing for a while on microsoft word my own little tier list. I'll post what I have so far.

Top tier:
High tier:
Upper Middle tier:

Lower Middle tier:

Low tier: [Default]
Not ranked: [Customs]

I honestly think Yoshi should be put in the Not Ranked section for now if people are gonna make more tier lists in this thread. When the likes of characters that're much MUCH lower like Link or Samus are bringing in results, yet Yoshi isn't...

Yeah I'm sure people get where I'm going with this, people at least see everyone above lower middle played in tournaments/during APEX the past few months but where's all the Yoshi results if people honestly think he's worth keeping in top 10 and sometimes (this list included) above characters like Pikachu Ness and Luigi?

 

[Antonykun]

I just realized Swordfighter has now become the official whipping boy for this thread.
I remembered back when I half sarcastically said they cried when Sakurai said they aren't planning more patches.
@Thinkaman did say they're at least better than Zelda. I wonder why.

 

[Smog Frog]

I honestly think Yoshi should be put in the Not Ranked section for now if people are gonna make more tier lists in this thread. When the likes of characters that're much MUCH lower like Link or Samus are bringing in results, yet Yoshi isn't...

Yeah I'm sure people get where I'm going with this, people at least see everyone above lower middle played in tournaments/during APEX the past few months but where's all the Yoshi results if people honestly think he's worth keeping in top 10 and sometimes (this list included) above characters like Pikachu Ness and Luigi?

yoshi just has a case of peach syndrome. dont be so pessimistic about such an optimistic green dinosaur

 

[Yonder]

I honestly think Yoshi should be put in the Not Ranked section for now if people are gonna make more tier lists in this thread. When the likes of characters that're much MUCH lower like Link or Samus are bringing in results, yet Yoshi isn't...

Yeah I'm sure people get where I'm going with this, people at least see everyone above lower middle played in tournaments/during APEX the past few months but where's all the Yoshi results if people honestly think he's worth keeping in top 10 and sometimes (this list included) above characters like Pikachu Ness and Luigi?

*Shrug* I have NO idea why people aren't playing him. Super heavy, great recovery, hits hard, versatile projectile, great mobility great meteor, great priority, good range, he's basically the jack of all trades like Pit/Lame Pit. Except I would call him the err...queen of all trades, because he does everything above average, but not amazing. He has no real noteworthy flaws sides maybe a meh side special? I'm not a Yoshi expert, someone needs to enlighten me on his flaws.

 

[TriTails]

Yeah I'm sure people get where I'm going with this, people at least see everyone above lower middle played in tournaments/during APEX the past few months but where's all the Yoshi results if people honestly think he's worth keeping in top 10 and sometimes (this list included) above characters like Pikachu Ness and Luigi?

I do believe MU determine tier lists. Thing is, Luigi's MUs aren't all that great... I do believe Yoshi and Pika have better MUs.

Luigi...
Loses to Villager and ROB hard
Loses to Diddy, Sheik, Pikachu, Rosalina, Jigglypuff, LM, Duck Hunt (?), Pac-Man, Greninja, Toon Link (Maybe?), (Dark) Pit slightly
Even with Marth, Captain Falcon, Mega Man (?), ZSS, Yoshi (?), Fox (Some may missing here, like a lot)
Advantage to everybody else.

Not sure about:
- Ike (He has great reach, but his attack speed is pretty slow compared to Luigi, and Luigi combos him hard. However, his attacks are stupidly strong)
- Shulk (Same as Ike. Greater range, but slow attacks. and weaker power)
- Meta-Knight (Mobility maaannnn. And U-air for a thousand times plus ASL shenanigans. Meanwhile, his range isn't all that great)
- GnW (Eats Fireballs with Bucket, and extremely tricky to fight. Not sure where to put him)
- Lucario (Luigi destroys him in close combat, but he can camp)
- Ness (His specials has lots of end lag/leaves him vunerable, and we all know how brutal Luigi's punish game is. But his aerial mobility and B-throw...)
- Falco (Mobility ain't great, but his F-smash is strong as heck. And his reflector reflects Fireballs like no one's business. But when fighting him.... Personally, I prefer the air.)
- Peach (I don't have much experience against her)

Luigi has disadvantages against pretty lot of top tiers (Apparently, Diddy and Sheik included) and his top tier advantage is probably only Sonic Speed!.

Just my opinion .

 

[Ffamran]

yoshi just has a case of peach syndrome. dont be so pessimistic about such an optimistic green dinosaur

Or an optimistic, orange, chubby dragon that is not actually a Dragon-type according to Pokémon.

Anyway, I just found out that Falco's Jab combo does not actually true combo, well, it does but separately: Jab 1 to Jab 2 true combos, but Jab 2 to Rapid Jab does not and Rapid Jab true combos into Rapid Jab finisher. Also, figuring out how the frames go together is a pain in the ***.