Character Competitive Impressions

[Conda]

lemme know when major TO's hosting regional tournaments are allowing customs. Till then I will just keep acting like they don't exist.

Because for discussion purposes, they don't.

Wario - Great aerial footsies, COMMAND GRAB MIX-UPS, solid recovery, Waft is scary and demands respect. Though this could be bias since Malcolm lives in my region.

I lose hope for DK when will lost to keitaros diddy at a local. Will is a much stronger player then Keitaro or at least at the time he was. idk how much better keitaro has gotten in these last two weeks.

When tiers decide the match, things don't bode well for that character.

Ike? No. He fares no better then Marth vs the top tiers except Sonic imo due to having a reliable jab. Rob? Yeah, I can see it. Puff? Ehhh. Respect pound and she is less scary.

Peach? What has she done? Does she beat any top tiers?

Thats what this all comes down to in the end. Can this character beat or at least hold their own vs the best chars. If they can't then thats when the label of unviable comes out.

Can this character SOLO a tournament.

Correct regarding "when tiers decide the match, things don't bode well for that characters."

For readers and onlookers, what he means is that a characters can be "solid" and "work", but if another characters is so much MORE solid and works in so many different ways (mixup potential, and higher skill ceiling due to more decision-making to master), then your "solid" character suddenly - compared to others - likely won't perform solidly.

It's too early to realise what characters this applies to, or to what extent. A solid character may be worse than one higher up in the tiers for clear reasons, but a good player may be able to break through and give himself a player advantage with good knowledge of matchups. Of course, this depends on the opponent not having the same knowledge.

When BOTH players have the same matchup knowledge (unlikely, but a necessary example to emulate mature-meta play), then it comes down to what character is more solid & has more options, and who has the advantage in the matchup. It also comes down to player-based elements as well, such as mindgames, conditioning, trapping, and so forth. And these player-based elements are something tier lists try to take into account regarding the potential a character has when played to their strengths - often those strengths lie in their ability to capitalize from mixups, mindgames, and such.

It's only early tier lists that take the on-paper attributes super literally and seriously. Once the meta develops, then we also begin factoring in the rewards characters earn based off of mixup potential, option variety, and such - something more difficult to tell when players are not playing in a super knowledgeable way yet (understandably).

-

Regarding Peach - she has a lot of playstyle variety available via floating and jump-cancelling, but people are still not sure if she's worth learning and if the rewards will be there. People are understandably hesitant to make her movement options second-nature, because it takes a ton of practice to get to that point (Which you need to be as peach to play her properly). She requires more brain-processing during matches than a lot of other characters, and that can clog up your brain during a match. Meanwhile if you play Diddy, you're clear to figure out when to grab, banana toss, and monkey flip.

 

[Emblem Lord]

This is how I feel about Shulk. All my buddies tell me to play him. I have always played footsie chars so I know how to space and I know I could do work with Shulk and his potential is sky high. But is it worth it? imo he loses to Sheik and probably always will. ZSS is probably closer to even. I think he might lose to Sonic. Diddy idk, but I thnk it may favor Diddy slightly.

Shulk will take MONTHS to master. Diddy takes weeks.

Is it worth it to invest time in the the most complicated character in the game and he probably won't break past top 10?

I would say no.

 

[Antonykun]

lemme know when major TO's hosting regional tournaments are allowing customs. Till then I will just keep acting like they don't exist.

Because for discussion purposes, they don't.

Wario - Great aerial footsies, COMMAND GRAB MIX-UPS, solid recovery, Waft is scary and demands respect. Though this could be bias since Malcolm lives in my region.

I lose hope for DK when will lost to keitaros diddy at a local. Will is a much stronger player then Keitaro or at least at the time he was. idk how much better keitaro has gotten in these last two weeks.

When tiers decide the match, things don't bode well for that character.

Ike? No. He fares no better then Marth vs the top tiers except Sonic imo due to having a reliable jab. Rob? Yeah, I can see it. Puff? Ehhh. Respect pound and she is less scary.

Peach? What has she done? Does she beat any top tiers?

Thats what this all comes down to in the end. Can this character beat or at least hold their own vs the best chars. If they can't then thats when the label of unviable comes out.

Can this character SOLO a tournament.

Now I'm really curious why Wario is an honorable mention rather than on the main list.

Regarding Peach, she's not doing much because she has "Pikachu Syndrome". I'm calling it pikachu syndrome cuz Pikachu was the first character I knew that had this She is so difficult to play as especially compared to Diddy and the crew that most players ignore her. Give her more time for a really good player to pick her up and learn all her convoluted inputs and you'll see her do better.

 

[etecoon]

still, half the cast is far too much to be invalidated by a small quantity of just 3 characters. its more realistically a third or a quarter.

also none of these characters are meta knight level so dont give me any of that

I feel that Sheik and Diddy are both very MK esque, there was a tendency to overrate MK's matchup spread and there now seems to be a tendency to overrate how "balanced" this game is. Sheik and Diddy don't really lose to anyone, that's what made MK attractive and the more people lose to cheese as other characters the more they'll consider using Sheik or Diddy. Sheik and Diddy don't destroy every character in the game either, but as more and more people start using them more people will argue that they do.

The viable cast is deeper than 3 characters for sure, maybe more like 10-15, but the farther down you go the more you need to play more than one character for matchup counterpicking. With Sheik, Diddy, ZSS, or Sonic you can put all of your time into one character and never be at much of a disadvantage for it, where to use dabuz as an example a Rosalina might want to second Olimar to deal with Diddy and then you have to warm up another character and worry about how consistent you can be with less practice, and your less developed characters are likely to be more shallow and easier to read. That's what a Brawl Meta Knight or this game's Sheik or Diddy can do for you, not only being overpowering characters but they make playing well easier also, it's hard to master and stay consistent with multiple characters

 

[Sinister Slush]

It should be called Yoshi syndrome.
Been hyped up since 3DS as top 2 (when sheik was best and it was a toss up of either rosalina yoshi or anybody) or 5 for so long yet no big 1st place or even top 5 in decent sized regionals.

At least Pikachu has seen play from NAKAT if ness and fox isn't winning games for him while trying to avoid diddy and ESAM before he quit for now.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike does better than Marth against the top tiers. Better combo game, more consistent KOing, faster CQC options, longer recovery distance, longer range, still has DACIT from Brawl.

I'll want to see the footage from that stream with Ryo, but I suspect the MU against Diddy ain't terrible. Not in Ike's favour, but I don't see it being 35-65 either. Sonic you already mentioned as being better for Ike than Marth (from my experience in tournaments its around neutral, can argue all day who if anybody has the slight edge). Sheik and ZSS are losses, but against I don't see them being terrible losses. Certainly manageable, I beat the ZSS I went up against.

Going through your list

Probably beats: Luigi, Pit, Dark Pit, Rosalina, Captain Falcon

Probably neutralish: Sonic, Mario, Fox, Pikachu, Ness, Shulk

Probably loses: Diddy, Sheik, ZSS

I have no clue because they play so weird: Pac-man, Dog Hunt, Villager

I've stressed this before, but keep this in mind: Ike can play near laglessly when he wants to. Stick with Jab/Fair/Bair/Grab/Dtilt/Nair. Gives us both ground and air options, as well as combo options (including combos to kill moves at kill percents), with very little risk on our side.

You spoke about Pac-man not being used optimally yet. I think Ike hasn't been used optimally yet. The three I think Ike loses against are tough ones to have in the lose column, but I don't see them as unreasonable to win against. If that entire list up there becomes the core group, Ike can easily make it into the top 8 reliably. And if you can make top 8, you can win tournaments.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

This is how I feel about Shulk. All my buddies tell me to play him. I have always played footsie chars so I know how to space and I know I could do work with Shulk and his potential is sky high. But is it worth it? imo he loses to Sheik and probably always will. ZSS is probably closer to even. I think he might lose to Sonic. Diddy idk, but I thnk it may favor Diddy slightly.

Shulk will take MONTHS to master. Diddy takes weeks.

Is it worth it to invest time in the the most complicated character in the game and he probably won't break past top 10?

I would say no.

Thats very much determined by ones mindset no? we all have a hidden interest to make a statement of some form.

im not gunna claim you have any other reason to main marth other than love for the character. (unless u don't like him then i would be just confused)
simply said we all could simply drop our characters for top tiers.

Top 8 means nothing to me personally. what i always considered viable is what win's tourny's consistently. It also helps if multiple people also use said character and get similar results.

And from what iv seen. thats just diddy. Diddy is the only viable character from what iv seen. shieks are rarely winning tourny's often enough for me to look at them. witch to me means somthing.

Sure we can say they have room to grow with shiek and people can only get better. But honestly we have been saying this since the 3ds and its been like 2-3 months since the wiiu version has been out. but results have not been all that different.

How long does it take for a shiek to be worth a damn?

And is it worth it to main her over the obviously simpler to learn diddy?

in my opinion for a play to only win stand point. No

But i have extra variables in my own mindset that i will always take into first and foremost.

But really though if we are all playing strictly to win i don't know why people would opt to use any other character than diddy.

 

[Ffamran]

Are retreating aerials common in all of not many matches? If they are, then Yoshi has all of his aerials being safe on shield. This thread is new, but it's starting something: http://smashboards.com/threads/list-of-moves-that-are-safe-on-shield.390257/.

 

[HeroMystic]

But really though if we are all playing strictly to win i don't know why people would opt to use any other character than diddy.

I think ZeRo tapped out Diddy to his fullest potential. In this case, it's just a matter of seeing if a character's potential is greater than Diddy's peak. A lot of people see that in Sheik, and some see that in Shulk.

If playing strictly to win, people will use Diddy in current tournaments while training other characters they feel are worth the investment.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I think ZeRo tapped out Diddy to his fullest potential. In this case, it's just a matter of seeing if a character's potential is greater than Diddy's peak. A lot of people see that in Sheik, and some see that in Shulk.

If playing strictly to win, people will use Diddy in current tournaments while training other characters they feel are worth the investment.

im also not gunna say i know what a full tapped character looks like either.

 

[Conda]

I think ZeRo tapped out Diddy to his fullest potential. In this case, it's just a matter of seeing if a character's potential is greater than Diddy's peak. A lot of people see that in Sheik, and some see that in Shulk.

If playing strictly to win, people will use Diddy in current tournaments while training other characters they feel are worth the investment.

Diddy is great and he can do a lot of things many characters have to work harder to do. He's got SH AD options, grab combo options, grab kill options, kill throw options, projectile camping options, projectile approach options, projectile kill confirms, projectile combo starters, stage control options, a command grab, a horizontal jump that doesn't place him in freefall, etc.

But other characters have those things too. Maybe not ALL of those things in one stupidly stupid package, but that also makes Diddy quite dislikeable. Not much fun to main a character people hate Unless you only want to win, but there's no fun in winning as Diddy aside from the cash prize.

Jokes aside, other characters can do what Diddy can do, just not the same obvious and easy way. Diddy tosses a banana to hit confirm into other things - either kills, or combos. Whatever Diddy feels like - he can do it all. But other characters can hit confirm into combos or kills too. Not ALL of them, but many of them and when you play such a character, it's important to utilize these options.

Learning these options are tougher though. Diddy's bananas give him a huge toolkit in one, but other characters have a lot of their toolkit's effectiveness spread out. I wouldn't be so quick to assume Diddy is Smash 4's 20XX, he has a limit and doesn't have EVERYTHING going for him - the strength of other characters in the game puts him in check. So, while he's very easy to play and use at a very effective level, that doesn't mean he's the only character that'll be worth using in 4 years.

All of this doesn't mean Diddy isn't the best. He likely is.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I think ZeRo tapped out Diddy to his fullest potential. In this case, it's just a matter of seeing if a character's potential is greater than Diddy's peak. A lot of people see that in Sheik, and some see that in Shulk.

If playing strictly to win, people will use Diddy in current tournaments while training other characters they feel are worth the investment.

Nope, not even close. Zero's very good with Diddy, but even he has room for improvement. There's definitely ways to improve as Diddy, even if I'm not sure he has as much room to grow as Sheik or someone like that. Diddy's not only amazing now, but has enough upside to at worst be co-best in the game with Sheik.

 

[Chuva]

Peach? What has she done? Does she beat any top tiers?

For what it's worth, she does well enough against Rosalina and Pikachu, and given her strengths (strong frame traps, variety of kill moves, aerial pressure and space control with turnips/float footsies) I wouldn't be surprised if she could at least hold her own against Sonic.

Now that it appear people are finally coming to terms with Pikachu being a palpable threat, I look forward to what the future holds for Peach and Meta Knight; the untapped potential in both characters is real (not on the same level as Pikachu, but enough to be on a tier of viability similar to the Pits imo)

We`re discussing the Rosalina matchup right now at the Greninja boards. Mind if I post this there?

Sure, feel free to

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ike does better than Marth against the top tiers. Better combo game, more consistent KOing, faster CQC options, longer recovery distance, longer range, still has DACIT from Brawl.

I'll want to see the footage from that stream with Ryo, but I suspect the MU against Diddy ain't terrible. Not in Ike's favour, but I don't see it being 35-65 either. Sonic you already mentioned as being better for Ike than Marth (from my experience in tournaments its around neutral, can argue all day who if anybody has the slight edge). Sheik and ZSS are losses, but against I don't see them being terrible losses. Certainly manageable, I beat the ZSS I went up against.

Going through your list

Probably beats: Luigi, Pit, Dark Pit, Rosalina, Captain Falcon

Probably neutralish: Sonic, Mario, Fox, Pikachu, Ness, Shulk

Probably loses: Diddy, Sheik, ZSS

I have no clue because they play so weird: Pac-man, Dog Hunt, Villager

I've stressed this before, but keep this in mind: Ike can play near laglessly when he wants to. Stick with Jab/Fair/Bair/Grab/Dtilt/Nair. Gives us both ground and air options, as well as combo options (including combos to kill moves at kill percents), with very little risk on our side.

You spoke about Pac-man not being used optimally yet. I think Ike hasn't been used optimally yet. The three I think Ike loses against are tough ones to have in the lose column, but I don't see them as unreasonable to win against. If that entire list up there becomes the core group, Ike can easily make it into the top 8 reliably. And if you can make top 8, you can win tournaments.

Why do you think Ike beats the Pit's? They have better pokes and similar range. CF I think is even. His reward and mobility are just better.

 

[Djent]

I think ZeRo tapped out Diddy to his fullest potential. In this case, it's just a matter of seeing if a character's potential is greater than Diddy's peak. A lot of people see that in Sheik, and some see that in Shulk.

When is it true that any character is "tapped out" 3 months into a game? Is the game that shallow? That would explain a lot.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

When is it true that any character is "tapped out" 3 months into a game? Is the game that shallow? That would explain a lot.

*shots fired*

 

[HeroMystic]

When is it true that any character is "tapped out" 3 months into a game? Is the game that shallow? That would explain a lot.

I don't think the game has so much technical depth that you could do a lot more with him. I mean, you could do what M2K did vs ESAM and do a lot of Up-B shenanigans but he only did that because ESAM was wrecking Diddy's face off-stage.

Other characters on the other hand has a lot more room to grow, some more than others. Mario for instance I feel has a decent amount of potential but not enough to completely revolutionize him but rather to refine and tune up his playstyle.

I'm completely willing to be happily wrong, but that's what my gut tells me.

 

[incrediblej]

@ Nidtendofreak
I don't like playing ike but can support some of ike advantages but against pits and CF no CF is much better than in brawl and the pits aren't severely faster but still faster and have similar range as ike I can agree completely with the neutrals pikachu can rack up damage but he can't kill with man of his moves, shulk is about the same range and speed, mario is about the same level as ike, sonic is less punishable, ness and fox I don't play them much on sm4sh so I cant speak for them

 

[Emblem Lord]

Please remember this is a VERY different era.

I'm old school guys. There was no youtube when I was coming up. Internet wasn't big yet. You had local scenes and different people coming up with tech. When everyone met at majors thats when you shared knowledge. It would takes years and years for a solid metagame to develop.

Now with how fast we communicate and share information with videos, a games meta can solidify in less then a year. Especially such a popular game as this one.

It's not so much the game is shallow. Times have changes and alot of you are simply too young to know what it was like in the early days of fighters to really make a comparison.

 

[Ffamran]

Why do you think Ike beats the Pit's? They have better pokes and similar range. CF I think is even. His reward and mobility are just better.

Guardian Orbitars, Phantom Slash, and Reflect Barrier destroys Ike's recovery. Ike would have to recover high all the time which is where I believe Pit thrives, Palutena can just Up Smash or use any of her aerials, and where Zelda can punish with her aerials or Farore's Wind Ike. Ike needs to stay on the stage against them which might not be a problem against Zelda and no customs Palutena, but Pit's ground game is good, so I think Ike might be at a disadvantage against them, especially Pit.

On Peach, her issue is like Yoshi and Captain Falcon, well, more like Pac-Man, Mega Man?, and Greninja: little to no results. We all seen ZSS, Rosalina, Luigi, Sheik, Fox, Sonic, and Diddy, but the wins Peach has are relatively unknown or little. At this point, she's in the same position as Melee Jigglypuff and Brawl Sonic, but also like Shulk meaning you have to be dedicated if you're playing as Peach. She's solid at a basic level, but that's not going to do much if someone mastered or is close to mastering Diddy.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Guardian Orbitars, Phantom Slash, and Reflect Barrier destroys Ike's recovery. Ike would have to recover high all the time which is where I believe Pit thrives, Palutena can just Up Smash or use any of her aerials, and where Zelda can punish with her aerials or Farore's Wind Ike. Ike needs to stay on the stage against them which might not be a problem against Zelda and no customs Palutena, but Pit's ground game is good, so I think Ike might be at a disadvantage against them, especially Pit.

On Peach, her issue is like Yoshi and Captain Falcon, well, more like Pac-Man, Mega Man?, and Greninja: little to no results. We all seen ZSS, Rosalina, Luigi, Sheik, Fox, Sonic, and Diddy, but the wins Peach has are relatively unknown or little. At this point, she's in the same position as Melee Jigglypuff and Brawl Sonic, but also like Shulk meaning you have to be dedicated if you're playing as Peach. She's solid at a basic level, but that's not going to do much if someone mastered or is close to mastering Diddy.

i swear if they gave zelda the ability to hold a phantom slash charge she would be a legit potent threat.
i feel almost all charge moves that can't hold a charge are just so lack luster.
marth and lucina would freaking love that on shield breaker Xd

 

[NairWizard]

I believe that Pikachu has the best Diddy matchup and that Meta Knight has the best Sheik matchup. I think that both are 55:45 MUs. That says a lot, when there are two characters who don't have any MUs worse than 55:45 (they may have a few more 55:45s, but that's still close enough to even to be called even).

For what it's worth, I also don't see Pikachu as losing any MU more than by 5 points or so. I think that his worst MU is Greninja, which is a slight loss at 55:45. This is just because of KO power and disjoints mixed with speed. The kit works particularly well against Pikachu. Megaman might be in the same bucket, except that tjolt camping + canceling projectiles with attacks is stupidly effective against him for some reason (makes him approach if you time right, and his approach is fun for Pikachu). I'll list some of Pikachu's matchups, because it occurs to me that people might not be aware:

slight disadvantage (45:55)


even (50:50 or slight variation thereof)


slight advantage (55:45)


convincing advantage (60:40 or better)


I was pretty conservative with my evens list because I haven't played the top players of each character (for example, I've played top Fox, but not top Rob, so it's hard to know if Rob loses as badly as Fox; from my Rob experience I'd say no). If any characters are missing it's because I really have not played against them at all in a tournament/competitive setting.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I believe that Pikachu has the best Diddy matchup and that Meta Knight has the best Sheik matchup. I think that both are 55:45 MUs. That says a lot, when there are two characters who don't have any MUs worse than 55:45 (they may have a few more 55:45s, but that's still close enough to even to be called even).

For what it's worth, I also don't see Pikachu as losing any MU more than by 5 points or so. I think that his worst MU is Greninja, which is a slight loss at 55:45. This is just because of KO power and disjoints mixed with speed. The kit works particularly well against Pikachu. Megaman might be in the same bucket, except that tjolt camping + canceling projectiles with attacks is stupidly effective against him for some reason (makes him approach if you time right, and his approach is fun for Pikachu). I'll list some of Pikachu's matchups, because it occurs to me that people might not be aware:

slight disadvantage (45:55)


even (50:50 or slight variation thereof)


slight advantage (55:45)


convincing advantage (60:40 or better)


I was pretty conservative with my evens list because I haven't played the top players of each character (for example, I've played top Fox, but not top Rob, so it's hard to know if Rob loses as badly as Fox; from my Rob experience I'd say no). If any characters are missing it's because I really have not played against them at all in a tournament/competitive setting.

i can vouch for samus being losing against the pika mu. like it did not feel impossible to win since i did win every here and there. but it took some hard reads. along with having very little control over any of the space samus wants.

 

[Asdioh]

Hold on, what makes MK so good against Sheik? Heck, what makes him better against Sheik than Kirby? The Kirby boards have listed the Sheik matchup as 50:50 but I still think arguments could be made for the matchup actually being in Kirby's favor. Which is why I wish more people played "#1 character Sheik" instead of "#2 character Diddy Kong" (I disagree with Sheik being better than Diddy, for those who still think that)

 

[warionumbah2]

Hold on, what makes MK so good against Sheik? Heck, what makes him better against Sheik than Kirby? The Kirby boards have listed the Sheik matchup as 50:50 but I still think arguments could be made for the matchup actually being in Kirby's favor. Which is why I wish more people played "#1 character Sheik" instead of "#2 character Diddy Kong" (I disagree with Sheik being better than Diddy, for those who still think that)

He can seal kills far better than Kirby and edgeguard Sheik better thanks to his disjointed hitboxes, he can also ignore edgeguard attempts from her using DC. Both of them have problems with the damage per hit area but MK F-Smash(safe af) and mach tornado gives him the edge especially on BF. And of course better mobility than Kirby.

Sheik has a stronger close range game and long range game but MK has the superior mid range game, if Sheik had better kill set ups it would be even but MK has kill set ups in almost every situation.

 

[FullMoon]

I believe that Pikachu has the best Diddy matchup and that Meta Knight has the best Sheik matchup. I think that both are 55:45 MUs. That says a lot, when there are two characters who don't have any MUs worse than 55:45 (they may have a few more 55:45s, but that's still close enough to even to be called even).

For what it's worth, I also don't see Pikachu as losing any MU more than by 5 points or so. I think that his worst MU is Greninja, which is a slight loss at 55:45. This is just because of KO power and disjoints mixed with speed. The kit works particularly well against Pikachu. Megaman might be in the same bucket, except that tjolt camping + canceling projectiles with attacks is stupidly effective against him for some reason (makes him approach if you time right, and his approach is fun for Pikachu). I'll list some of Pikachu's matchups, because it occurs to me that people might not be aware:

slight disadvantage (45:55)


even (50:50 or slight variation thereof)


slight advantage (55:45)


convincing advantage (60:40 or better)


I was pretty conservative with my evens list because I haven't played the top players of each character (for example, I've played top Fox, but not top Rob, so it's hard to know if Rob loses as badly as Fox; from my Rob experience I'd say no). If any characters are missing it's because I really have not played against them at all in a tournament/competitive setting.

Oh, so I'm not the only one who thought Greninja had an advantage over Pikachu, good.

 

[Yokoblue]

Oh, so I'm not the only one who thought Greninja had an advantage over Pikachu, good.

Sakurai obviously doesnt know how to balance things... He should know that water is weak against lightning... Seriously has he even studied the characters before putting them in ?
Don't start to bring Protean into the mix !

 

[HeavyLobster]

Sakurai obviously doesnt know how to balance things... He should know that water is weak against lightning... Seriously has he even studied the characters before putting them in ?
Don't start to bring Protean into the mix !

Poor Charizard wasn't so lucky.

 

[danzibr]

Has anyone seen this tier list? http://imgur.com/Tl7i7Iy

It's supposedly from February 2015, so recent. I have no idea if it's legitimate or not, but if so it looks promising. No S or SS tier, lots in the B+/B/B- range. Plus my old main from Melee is top tier 8)

This is, of course, if it has any worth.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Poor Charizard wasn't so lucky.

Are you so sure? Charizard seems to do pretty well against Pikachu from my experience.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

lemme know when major TO's hosting regional tournaments are allowing customs. Till then I will just keep acting like they don't exist.

Because for discussion purposes, they don't.

Wario - Great aerial footsies, COMMAND GRAB MIX-UPS, solid recovery, Waft is scary and demands respect. Though this could be bias since Malcolm lives in my region.

I lose hope for DK when will lost to keitaros diddy at a local. Will is a much stronger player then Keitaro or at least at the time he was. idk how much better keitaro has gotten in these last two weeks.

When tiers decide the match, things don't bode well for that character.

Ike? No. He fares no better then Marth vs the top tiers except Sonic imo due to having a reliable jab. Rob? Yeah, I can see it. Puff? Ehhh. Respect pound and she is less scary.

Peach? What has she done? Does she beat any top tiers?

Thats what this all comes down to in the end. Can this character beat or at least hold their own vs the best chars. If they can't then thats when the label of unviable comes out.

Can this character SOLO a tournament.

I've only seen malcom go to xanadu once and he hadn't really adapted to smash 4 wario and still took 5th place and should have gotten higher he messed up on the fox matchup. How does malcom do consistently in ur region?

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Now I'm really curious why Wario is an honorable mention rather than on the main list.

Regarding Peach, she's not doing much because she has "Pikachu Syndrome". I'm calling it pikachu syndrome cuz Pikachu was the first character I knew that had this She is so difficult to play as especially compared to Diddy and the crew that most players ignore her. Give her more time for a really good player to pick her up and learn all her convoluted inputs and you'll see her do better.

Because people don't know enough about him except that he's good enough to be considered top 15. Not enough wario mains his meta is just developing slower than the rest. Wario has some of the best edge guarding in the game with waft and bite.

 

[dragontamer]

Has anyone seen this tier list? http://imgur.com/Tl7i7Iy

It's supposedly from February 2015, so recent. I have no idea if it's legitimate or not, but if so it looks promising. No S or SS tier, lots in the B+/B/B- range. Plus my old main from Melee is top tier 8)

This is, of course, if it has any worth.

I still dislike how Reddit's voting methodology works out. Still, it shows that the community is improving in this game. Honestly, I take random player's tier lists (ie: Shaya posted some thoughts earlier) over the voting-methodology that Reddit has.

For that tier list in particular, it is much better than Reddit lists of the past, but is still filled with some WTFs. Gannondorf and Ike are probably better than Lucina. Marth seems to be overrated. Metaknight and Kirby also seem underrated, while Capt. Falcon is overrated IMO.

 

[Trespayne]

Has anyone seen this tier list? http://imgur.com/Tl7i7Iy

It's supposedly from February 2015, so recent. I have no idea if it's legitimate or not, but if so it looks promising. No S or SS tier, lots in the B+/B/B- range. Plus my old main from Melee is top tier 8)

This is, of course, if it has any worth.

That list actually looks fairly accurate. More accurate than eventhubs for sure.

I think R.O.B should be higher than I've seen him in most iterations of tier lists. He has some of the best projectiles in the game. His neutral A is a safe approach and defensive move with little lag. Up smash was buffed and U air is a great kill move from down throw. U throw also kills at decent percentages. Side B is a great roll catcher at any percentage medium and up. His recovery is solid and can attack out of it easily.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

That list actually looks fairly accurate. More accurate than eventhubs for sure.

I think R.O.B should be higher than I've seen him in most iterations of tier lists. He has some of the best projectiles in the game. His neutral A is a safe approach and defensive move with little lag. Up smash was buffed and U air is a great kill move from down throw. U throw also kills at decent percentages. Side B is a great roll catcher at any percentage medium and up. His recovery is solid and can attack out of it easily.

List is bad I feel. My main is bottom 15 when knowledge and top players like Dabuz m2k zero and shaya have Wario top 15 and high mid to high tier. There are a bunch of things on that list I don't like.

 

[FullMoon]

Sakurai obviously doesnt know how to balance things... He should know that water is weak against lightning... Seriously has he even studied the characters before putting them in ?
Don't start to bring Protean into the mix !

Well if we're going by Pokémon logic, Pikachu would lose to Greninja all the time because Greninja is faster and Pikachu has wet paper defenses. Type advantages aren't everything, bro.

 

[SwoodGrommet]

Has anyone seen this tier list? http://imgur.com/Tl7i7Iy

It's supposedly from February 2015, so recent. I have no idea if it's legitimate or not, but if so it looks promising. No S or SS tier, lots in the B+/B/B- range. Plus my old main from Melee is top tier 8)

This is, of course, if it has any worth.

- Pit should go up a tier.
- Metaknight is way too low.
- King DeDeDe should go up a tier or two.
- I personally think Yoshi should come before Ness.
- I feel Robin should be a tier higher.
- Ike should be up a tier.
- Mii Gunner is way too low.
- Lucario is always high in tier lists, but I never see any Lucario mains!

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Why do you think Ike beats the Pit's? They have better pokes and similar range. CF I think is even. His reward and mobility are just better.

Pokes and range I had accounted for. Assuming top level of play and all of that, I think Ike's slight advantage in range + good aerial speed + Bair/Fair is enough to cause some serious trouble for most characters, Pits included.

What I HAD forgotten about, are the Orbiters. In my defence, the Dark Pit I played against in tournament was.... bad. Really bad. I wasn't rely on that experience for my opinion on where to place them, but that player never used the Down B so I kinda forgot it existed.

Recovering high isn't a problem with Quick Draw, the longer you charge it the higher up you can land and have minimal landing lag. But its certainly a negative. At the same time, Pit's Up B is kinda Eruption bait, and I had no problems smacking around that Dark Pit whenever they tried to use Side B to recover. Probably a case where we need high level footage to figure out who screws over who more recovery wise.

Captain Falcon has great mobility, but not much for disjointed range. Sonic's mobility and rewards are better than Falcon's, and I know from experience against Sonics that actually knew what they were doing that Ike's range can shut down that mobility fairly well as long as you play correctly. Add on top of that Falcon having a larger hitbox which means Ike has an even easier time juggling him and an inferior recovery in exchange for more KOing power. Could be evenish, I'd lean more towards advantage atm.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Are you so sure? Charizard seems to do pretty well against Pikachu from my experience.

Tell me your secret. I hate the rat.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Tell me your secret. I hate the rat.

seeing as u main ganon and d3 i can see why.