Character Competitive Impressions

[HeavyLobster]

seeing as u main ganon and d3 i can see why.

Also my brother plays Pika. I've gotten to the point where I can generally win by outplaying him but it is very annoying.

 

[Runic_SSB]

I think ZeRo tapped out Diddy to his fullest potential.

I really don't think Diddy is even close to tapped out, he just has a few obviously great moves and people are focusing solely on those. If you look at Diddy Kongs now, they almost never use their ground options except banana, down throw and utilt, and even his air game is pretty much just uair and fair. Ftilt and dtilt have a ton of utility, nair is an excellent move for a number of situations, his fthrow and bthrow are great for setting up edgeguards (which he's pretty damn good at), and his smashes are better than people give them credit for. Right now people are just using the things that are the most obvious in their effectiveness (which also explains Diddy's dominance in general), but as the meta develops, we're going to be seeing a lot more of his moveset.

 

[Makorel]

At the same time, Pit's Up B is kinda Eruption bait, and I had no problems smacking around that Dark Pit whenever they tried to use Side B to recover. Probably a case where we need high level footage to figure out who screws over who more recovery wise.

This is why I pretty much always fire an arrow as I fall past the edge. If the other player is camping the ledge and not attempting to seal the deal then they either take damage/hitstun or they're forced to shield/dodge giving my up B enough time to get back safely. Feel free to call me on the apparent safety of this but at any rate I don't think I've ever been unable to get back on the ledge doing this.

 

[Pazx]

People are talking about Shulk having untapped potential and a high skill ceiling (both of which are true) but isn't he fundamentally a bad character? He's got good aspects but dramatic drawbacks.

Also that tier list is booty.

Bold claim: WFT is top 10. An off-stage game that probably beats Puff and Sheik, fantastic juggle game, 2 spammable projectiles (planking with header/sun salutation is quite good), deep breathing, the ability to heal and brilliant hitboxes on most moves. I don't buy into the "WFT can't hit anyone" mindset, even if it was somewhat true (it's not, stop saying it is) I think she could be the D3 of this game in that she might struggle to touch Diddy and co. but absolutely invalidates worse characters, particularly the heavies. This isn't even considering custom moves.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Tell me your secret. I hate the rat.

The strat is pretty much "be heavy". Charizard hits so much harder than Pikachu and dies so much later that you can be losing the neutral pretty badly and still win the game. I just kinda jab, grab, and Flamethrower a lot while mixing in fishing expeditions with power moves, and it works out okay. The fact that Charizard out ranges and out prioritizes Pikachu's entire moveset to a ridiculously huge extent helps too; Pikachu is so much faster, but if you can just get your moves out, they'll consistently beat everything Pikachu does. There are times fighting characters like Pikachu and Sheik as heavies that you will take stupid amounts of damage without actually accomplishing anything, but it's okay just stay calm and keep looking for your openings and know you can make it all up in a hurry.

It probably helps to have customs which I always do. Rock Hurl is disruptive of attempts to combo you, and I really feel like Flare Blitz is just the worst side special option. Dragon Rush lets you punish so much stuff you couldn't otherwise while also being generally incredible as a recovery option, and Blast Burn is hard to hit with but seriously if it's fresh and you have rage it kills Pikachu at 60% which is the kind of power that just forces respect. I kinda feel like Flare Blitz is a worst of both worlds compromise, not much faster than Blast Burn and not much stronger than Dragon Rush with the extra distance it gets over Blast Burn being another downside since it can easily kill you if you use it to shoot off-stage (Dragon Rush recovers faster and thus is way safer to use in those situations); everyone else who plays Charizard seems to like it but I really have grown to dislike Flare Blitz a lot.

---

There is just no way Wii Fit Trainer is a remotely viable character without Jumbo Hoops. All of her buttons lose to all of everyone else's buttons; you need solid reads to hit with anything, and if the opponent is smart about your jab (holds up when being hit, mashes hard if they get grounded which won't be often) you don't really have a good combo game so you need Ganon level reads to play your basic game for not Ganon level rewards. Her projectile zoning seemed good on 3ds where it was really hard to control our characters, but on Wii U it's pretty easy to get around. She has good speed to power and a lot of other random good attributes, but she just needs a way to beat stuff in neutral in any kind of way at all and I don't see a way that works without Jumbo Hoops.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

im also not gunna say i know what a full tapped character looks like either.

I'd provide a link, but I think the mods frown on that sort of thing. :D

Has anyone seen this tier list? http://imgur.com/Tl7i7Iy

It's supposedly from February 2015, so recent. I have no idea if it's legitimate or not, but if so it looks promising. No S or SS tier, lots in the B+/B/B- range. Plus my old main from Melee is top tier 8)

This is, of course, if it has any worth.

I'm going to make a bold claim: Bowser is a tier too high and on the wrong end of the list. He is almost certainly bottom 5. The change to airdodges removes basically his last safe landing option, most of his moves are garbage, his combos are mediocre, his throws are bad... Like, I don't really know where to even start. :/

 

[HeavyLobster]

The strat is pretty much "be heavy". Charizard hits so much harder than Pikachu and dies so much later that you can be losing the neutral pretty badly and still win the game. I just kinda jab, grab, and Flamethrower a lot while mixing in fishing expeditions with power moves, and it works out okay. The fact that Charizard out ranges and out prioritizes Pikachu's entire moveset to a ridiculously huge extent helps too; Pikachu is so much faster, but if you can just get your moves out, they'll consistently beat everything Pikachu does. There are times fighting characters like Pikachu and Sheik as heavies that you will take stupid amounts of damage without actually accomplishing anything, but it's okay just stay calm and keep looking for your openings and know you can make it all up in a hurry.

It probably helps to have customs which I always do. Rock Hurl is disruptive of attempts to combo you, and I really feel like Flare Blitz is just the worst side special option. Dragon Rush lets you punish so much stuff you couldn't otherwise while also being generally incredible as a recovery option, and Blast Burn is hard to hit with but seriously if it's fresh and you have rage it kills Pikachu at 60% which is the kind of power that just forces respect. I kinda feel like Flare Blitz is a worst of both worlds compromise, not much faster than Blast Burn and not much stronger than Dragon Rush with the extra distance it gets over Blast Burn being another downside since it can easily kill you if you use it to shoot off-stage (Dragon Rush recovers faster and thus is way safer to use in those situations); everyone else who plays Charizard seems to like it but I really have grown to dislike Flare Blitz a lot.

So my problem is that I'm playing the wrong meta instead of the custom meta where fatties actually stand a chance.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I'd provide a link, but I think the mods frown on that sort of thing. :D



I'm going to make a bold claim: Bowser is a tier too high and on the wrong end of the list. He is almost certainly bottom 5. The change to airdodges removes basically his last safe landing option, most of his moves are garbage, his combos are mediocre, his throws are bad... Like, I don't really know where to even start. :/

very few characters have safe landing options just di towwards the ledges.

 

[etecoon]

I'm going to make a bold claim: Bowser is a tier too high and on the wrong end of the list. He is almost certainly bottom 5. The change to airdodges removes basically his last safe landing option, most of his moves are garbage, his combos are mediocre, his throws are bad... Like, I don't really know where to even start. :/

Not that bold. Bottom 5...idk who bottom 5 would be but Bowser not being good should be obvious, this character type has consistently been screwed over in nearly every iteration throughout the series. DK is the only big heavy that has much potential in this game IMO. For Bowser, being a giant target that is super easy to combo, juggle, and edge guard doesn't have much upside

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Not that bold. Bottom 5...idk who bottom 5 would be but Bowser not being good should be obvious, this character type has consistently been screwed over in nearly every iteration throughout the series. DK is the only big heavy that has much potential in this game IMO. For Bowser, being a giant target that is super easy to combo, juggle, and edge guard doesn't have much upside

His customs shoot him to top 15 easy at least. or custom should i say. (but i do have a personal love for turbulent bomb)

 

[The_Law]

The strat is pretty much "be heavy". Charizard hits so much harder than Pikachu and dies so much later that you can be losing the neutral pretty badly and still win the game. I just kinda jab, grab, and Flamethrower a lot while mixing in fishing expeditions with power moves, and it works out okay. The fact that Charizard out ranges and out prioritizes Pikachu's entire moveset to a ridiculously huge extent helps too; Pikachu is so much faster, but if you can just get your moves out, they'll consistently beat everything Pikachu does. There are times fighting characters like Pikachu and Sheik as heavies that you will take stupid amounts of damage without actually accomplishing anything, but it's okay just stay calm and keep looking for your openings and know you can make it all up in a hurry.

It probably helps to have customs which I always do. Rock Hurl is disruptive of attempts to combo you, and I really feel like Flare Blitz is just the worst side special option. Dragon Rush lets you punish so much stuff you couldn't otherwise while also being generally incredible as a recovery option, and Blast Burn is hard to hit with but seriously if it's fresh and you have rage it kills Pikachu at 60% which is the kind of power that just forces respect. I kinda feel like Flare Blitz is a worst of both worlds compromise, not much faster than Blast Burn and not much stronger than Dragon Rush with the extra distance it gets over Blast Burn being another downside since it can easily kill you if you use it to shoot off-stage (Dragon Rush recovers faster and thus is way safer to use in those situations); everyone else who plays Charizard seems to like it but I really have grown to dislike Flare Blitz a lot.

I can agree with you. As a pikachu main myself, I find trouble against charizard. The main issue being it's hard to actually land a KO

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I've been trying DK, and overall, he seems pretty solid. Don't get me wrong, he's combo food for a lot of characters, but this meta is working in his favor from what I'm getting. This is mostly due to the explicit removal of chain grabs, since as a big heavy character he used to be a victim to a lot of those. On a stage like battlefield, this guy wrecks. His aerials are at their best due to the platforms (Uair, Bair, and Nair). Edgeguarding is also one of his strengths (gimp with Nair, spike with fair or Dair if you're really feeling it, or just straight up murder with Bair) unless the opponent recovers low, in which case, it's best to avoid offstage shenanigans. DK is surprisingly mobile in the air and on the ground, which is a plus especially considering he hits like a truck with great range. And his back throw kills when fresh which is awesome for closing stocks. However, he has several matchups that really shut him down, such as Sheik. I use him mostly as a counterpick for this reason.
Thoughts on the King of Swing?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I've been trying DK, and overall, he seems pretty solid. Don't get me wrong, he's combo food for a lot of characters, but this meta is working in his favor from what I'm getting. This is mostly due to the explicit removal of chain grabs, since as a big heavy character he used to be a victim to a lot of those. On a stage like battlefield, this guy wrecks. His aerials are at their best due to the platforms (Uair, Bair, and Nair). Edgeguarding is also one of his strengths (gimp with Nair, spike with fair or Dair if you're really feeling it, or just straight up murder with Bair) unless the opponent recovers low, in which case, it's best to avoid offstage shenanigans. DK is surprisingly mobile in the air and on the ground, which is a plus especially considering he hits like a truck with great range. And his back throw kills when fresh which is awesome for closing stocks. However, he has several matchups that really shut him down, such as Sheik. I use him mostly as a counterpick for this reason.
Thoughts on the King of Swing?

well at least hes got a pretty decent mu vs diddy.

 

[thehard]

well at least hes got a pretty decent mu vs diddy.

How do you figure that?

 

[Emblem Lord]

I would not call WFT hitboxes brilliant.

Unless I was completely bat **** insane

 

[thehard]

I would not call WFT hitboxes brilliant.

Unless I was completely bat **** insane

They're weird but I'm convinced the weirdness is a good thing. Just wait until some weirdo weirdly mains WFT and uses her weird hitboxes to the detriment of the opponent and not the user.

 

[Antonykun]

sheesh apparently everyone is top 15 with customs on.

 

[etecoon]

very few characters have safe landing options just di towwards the ledges.

His bigger problem is that this doesn't even work, between his being so heavy and big, slow movement, and slow attack speed once you've hit him into the air you can just keep hitting him. He falls slowly too and down B has a lot of startup, it's just really hard to even get to the ledge vs quicker characters. His upside for this should be that he's stronger than most of the cast but this doesn't even really pan out to any significant degree unless you're hitting people with fsmashes and down B regularly somehow when characters like Diddy, ZSS, and Rosalina can also kill relatively early and with much more reliability

I've been trying DK, and overall, he seems pretty solid. Don't get me wrong, he's combo food for a lot of characters, but this meta is working in his favor from what I'm getting. This is mostly due to the explicit removal of chain grabs, since as a big heavy character he used to be a victim to a lot of those. On a stage like battlefield, this guy wrecks. His aerials are at their best due to the platforms (Uair, Bair, and Nair). Edgeguarding is also one of his strengths (gimp with Nair, spike with fair or Dair if you're really feeling it, or just straight up murder with Bair) unless the opponent recovers low, in which case, it's best to avoid offstage shenanigans. DK is surprisingly mobile in the air and on the ground, which is a plus especially considering he hits like a truck with great range. And his back throw kills when fresh which is awesome for closing stocks. However, he has several matchups that really shut him down, such as Sheik. I use him mostly as a counterpick for this reason.
Thoughts on the King of Swing?

I see him as the one hope for this character type to be any kind of successful in this game. He has the mobility and range, the ability to seriously threaten shields with breaks, his grab, AND a few attacks that are safe on block, edge guarding and juggling potential, and a strong as **** charge attack with super armor. Is it enough to overcome being combo food, somewhat easy to edge guard himself, and that his range means he's constantly throwing his hurtbox way out there as well as a hitbox? Not sure in the long run, but he's the closest to viable the big like a house and hits like a train character has gotten I feel

 

[PMMikey]

I

Thanks for telling me that. Now I know not to take you seriously.

Also saying you don't believe in tier list is akin to saying you don't believe the Earth is round. Believe whatever you wish. Doesn't make you any less incorrect.

And match-ups aren't that important? My goodness. I truly have no more words. I think I will take a break from this thread.

Sorry to upset you, just how I feel about it. Explain to me what makes the tier list important.

 

[Antonykun]

I

Sorry to upset you, just how I feel about it. Explain to me what makes the tier list important.

*grabs popcorn*
In all seriousness though you really can't expect zelda to consistently do well tournamnets

 

[Yonder]

sheesh apparently everyone is top 15 with customs on.

Someone should literally make a post compiling every character that has been said to be "top 10-15 with customs" thing. Big project...but I know for a fact this statement is true.

Could start by tossing top 15 customs into the search box idk...

 

[PMMikey]

*grabs popcorn*
In all seriousness though you really can't expect zelda to consistently do well tournamnets

Maybe it's cause I'm a little new to this, but I haven't fought many Zeldas before. I just haven't grasped why it's important.

 

[Antonykun]

Maybe it's cause I'm a little new to this, but I haven't fought many Zeldas before. I just haven't grasped why it's important.

I an all fighting games there is an essence of imbalance. Because of this imbalance no two characters are as powerful as each other. Because of that Matchups are created to determine who does well against who. Because of Matchups tier lists are created to catalouge who has the best Matchup spreads.

This is a very poor and butchered explanation but i think it gets the point across.

 

[PMMikey]

I an all fighting games there is an essence of imbalance. Because of this imbalance no two characters are as powerful as each other. Because of that Matchups are created to determine who does well against who. Because of Matchups tier lists are created to catalouge who has the best Matchup spreads.

This is a very poor and butchered explanation but i think it gets the point across.

It does, thank you really.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Bowser's dair can screw with people trying to landing trap him; it eats through most stuff if they try to just stay right under him and intercept. If they try to trap you by staying off to the side (such that they can punish dair), breathe fire as you fall to cover your landing. If they stay right under you and just hold shield, either side special that for the air grab or, if their shield is a little low, let the Bowser Bomb fly to pop that shield. Honestly IMO Bowser has a relatively easy time getting down compared to most characters since he has a lot of tools specifically for that purpose; he has other disadvantages, but I think he's decent overall.

 

[Antonykun]

It does, thank you really.

Phew, I was worried this would end up much worse than it actually did.

 

[NairWizard]

The thing about read-based heavies vs. combo-based light characters is that the burden of performance is on the light characters. The heavies don't mind messing up that much by design; they kill early and enjoy Rage, so trades are usually favorable for them. This doesn't mean that heavies are skilless, far from it, but the lower margin of error is built into their design so that they can take some risks and pull ahead. By contrast, light characters have to minimize risky scenarios and trades to win. In other words, they have to lame out the heavies in neutral.

Usually when you see a Charizard winning against a Sheik at high level it's because the Sheik is messing up (not to take anything away from the Charizard). Just look at False vs. Trela at Sky's invitational, or Denti vs. Trela a while back on 3DS. But if we are talking about a well-played (high-level) Charizard vs. a well-played (high-level) Sheik, where the Sheik is making minimal mistakes, then Sheik comes out ahead.

The strat is pretty much "be heavy". Charizard hits so much harder than Pikachu and dies so much later that you can be losing the neutral pretty badly and still win the game. I just kinda jab, grab, and Flamethrower a lot while mixing in fishing expeditions with power moves, and it works out okay. The fact that Charizard out ranges and out prioritizes Pikachu's entire moveset to a ridiculously huge extent helps too; Pikachu is so much faster, but if you can just get your moves out, they'll consistently beat everything Pikachu does. There are times fighting characters like Pikachu and Sheik as heavies that you will take stupid amounts of damage without actually accomplishing anything, but it's okay just stay calm and keep looking for your openings and know you can make it all up in a hurry.

The problem is that Charizard is not even remotely safe in neutral, and Pikachu doesn't have to approach. You can tjolt until Charizard approaches you and then QA to the other end of the stage if he walks forward and powershields (if he runs, he commits to dash attacking, grabbing, or jumping, so you can time a f-air, which will win almost always, trust me). Now, to deal with this strat, Charizard can run behind and grab you if you QA past him, or he can toss out a hitbox. Pikachu can mix up QAs in place and outside of Charizard's dash grab range, and if Charizard misses his aerial or up-smash his attacks have enough lag on them that Pikachu can punish and start a combo. It may sound like it's a 50:50 read for Charizard but it's much worse because of the many angles of QA. I very rarely get hit out of this against heavies, especially because intelligent use of Tjolt coaxes shields. To make matters worse, there are gaps in Charizard's aerial hitboxes that allow Pikachu to f-air or b-air through. Also, d-tilt and f-air are moderately difficult for Charizard to deal with at max range.

The big thing that Pikachu needs to avoid doing is running in to nab a KO, because that's how you get killed (by rock smash, grab, d-smash, anything). Just wait and keep camping; the KO will come to you. Tjolts are much less effective on Battlefield but Quick Attack cancels come into play there, and I'd say the matchup is even better there because of those (Lylat too). Rock Smash prevents lengthy up-air juggles on Charizard anyway, so it's not like the platforms help Charizard land in general.

Generally just get the % lead and then lame Charizard out. It's not free by any means, but it's certainly in Pikachu's favor, unlike the Greninja MU, where it doesn't matter if you lame Greninja out or not because he's fast and hard to punish.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

very few characters have safe landing options just di towwards the ledges.

Yes, but his ledge options are also crap. And while few characters really have safe landing options, few have the completely cluster**** that is Bowser's:
- abysmal air speed (means he's gonna eat more punishment before he gets to the ledge)
- Really laggy aerials with mediocre low-angled hitboxes
's bad. Real bad.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Yeah, Charizard's neutral game is really mediocre. Pikachu runs circles around him.

It's a difficult as hell MU if the Pika knows what they're doing.

 

[thehard]

I think by Smash 5 Nintendo might be able to make heavies truly viable. I like the direction they're taking by being liberal with super/heavy armor, Bowser's perpetual armor, Bowser's MASSIVE buffs that STILL won't make him high tier (just goes to show how much work heavies need), new ledge mechanics, rage, etc. I think they just need to not be KO'd as early and do a bit more damage all around. (or make the lighter characters lighter/do less damage, or both)

Don't get me wrong, there are some good heavies (that only get better with customs) but it still feels like you need to put in way more work than any speedster character, for variable reward, and it's been like this for essentially the entirety of Smash history.

Maybe I'm being too pessimistic.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Bowser's dair can screw with people trying to landing trap him; it eats through most stuff if they try to just stay right under him and intercept. If they try to trap you by staying off to the side (such that they can punish dair), breathe fire as you fall to cover your landing. If they stay right under you and just hold shield, either side special that for the air grab or, if their shield is a little low, let the Bowser Bomb fly to pop that shield. Honestly IMO Bowser has a relatively easy time getting down compared to most characters since he has a lot of tools specifically for that purpose; he has other disadvantages, but I think he's decent overall.

Bowser's dair is phenomenally laggy and falls to the same "sit there and block" strategy that virtually everything he has to land with does. His sideB is an option against that, but it's tiny - not great against the real issues, which is things like landing on metal blades or Luma. His DownB... If you can't react to that in time, then you're not very good. Oh, and you get to eat literally whatever kill move they want to throw at you because it's got like a full second of landing lag. These tools are bad, and they do virtually nothing to make up for the miserable fall speed, air speed, and lack of safe options.

Sorry to upset you, just how I feel about it. Explain to me what makes the tier list important.

The thing about tier lists is that they give you a good impression of who in a game is better and who is worse. It depends on the game - the tier list for Street Fighter 4 is extremely condensed, with almost the entire cast being viable enough to win major tournaments to some degree, whereas the tier list for Melee basically has a huge cut-off point around the 7th spot where no-one beneath it stands a chance - but a character being higher on the tier list than another basically says, "this character can be expected to have better matchups against more metagame-relevant characters". Or, in other words, "this character is more tournament-viable".

Also, Pon-3 FTW. /)

Bowser's perpetual armor

I think there's like one matchup where this matters at all, Luigi, and that's not a matchup Bowser does particularly well in. Oh, right, Little Mac. That's a thing. Seriously, it's a nice touch, but it's so weak and unreliable that it might as well not be there. Buff that to, say, armor anything below 5%, then we'll talk about bowser being good.

...God, that would be Brawl- bowser all over again. <3

 

[Smog Frog]

is the pika mu taking into account the zard outruns pika on the ground?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Don't get me wrong, there are some good heavies (that only get better with customs) but it still feels like you need to put in way more work than any speedster character, for variable reward, and it's been like this for essentially the entirety of Smash history.

I don't feel that heavies work harder. I think light weights *work* the hardest.
I don't believe losing means you *work harder*.

Heavies have the highest "effective health" vs Light weights at the lowest. Light weights should have substantial reward, and to an extent they do but frankly I feel the general trend in Smash 4 is that being a light weight sucks as and by light I mean the bottom 5 on the weight list.

To my perspective the game is *trying* to make you work the least as a heavy. Those efforts are just not so relevant as players get better, which is why I *think* people initially hyped up Bowser.

 

[Emblem Lord]

The very nature of heavies makes it hard to make them viable. Only games I ever played where heavies are good is when they have amazing tools that force characters to play their game.

Potemkin in GG is the best example. But his options are pretty insane. Unblockable ground pound that forces opponents to jump. He has an anti-projectile barrier so zoning just doesnt work that well. AA grab that does serious damage. Insane normals that beat EVERYTHING except swords and invincible normals.

Basically the mitigating factor is HORRIBLE mobility because in most fighters being able to get around easily means alot.

The heavies in this game are just TOO weak in neutral. That's why imo DK is the strongest heavy. Solid mobility and pokes. Great defensive option with his up b.

He def loses to several top tiers which hurts him alot though.

 

[Spinosaurus]

is the pika mu taking into account the zard outruns pika on the ground?

It doesn't really matter when Pikachu has Quick Attack.

 

[thehard]

I think you're right @ ChronoPenguin . I think the problem is heavies are LIMITED in how hard they can work, due to startup/endlag, large frames, etc.etc.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Whenever people try to slow play me with Charizard, I just use lots and lots of Flamethrower. It's pretty much completely safe, and I'm content to win very slowly this way if you want to slow play me since to be honest Flamethrower is easier to land than Thunder Jolt if we're both not approaching at all. Dragon Rush will also catch Pikachu trying to run away with Quick Attack very well, but even if I have Blast Burn (or heaven forbid Flare Blitz) you had better be careful not to leave yourself open to dash attacks which isn't exactly easy. Quick Attack is a good tool, but it's not invincible and has commitment so if you want to be safe using it 100% of the time you're going to have to be psychic or the Charizard is going to just have to not contest your spacing at all which won't happen. If we get close, I have my jab and grab game, both of which do mountains of damage with huge hitboxes. Charizard's neutral is way better than you guys are giving it credit for being; Charizard has a better neutral than DK.

The theory that if you don't make mistakes fast characters are best is true, but it's a moot point since even the very best players make large numbers of mistakes. Yeah when you watch someone like Charizard lose it's mostly him getting smacked around a lot by someone way faster, but that doesn't mean he couldn't have won if things had gone just a bit differently.

To be clear @ Budget Player Cadet_ you are suggesting Bowser will lose to someone staying directly under where he's going to land and holding shield. For one you can just neutral land and grounded Whirling Fortress their punish attempt (or jab or grab depending on your mood and what they went for). For two you can air grab. For three there really are times where you will land that Bowser Bomb especially if they are relying super heavily on shield. Standing in place under someone holding shield isn't intimidating as a landing trap; I glossed over that one mostly because it's so easy to deal with. If you do anything to actually prevent Bowser's landing by attacking, he can dair and beat whatever button you hit (dair also generally eats spotdodge, an important point). If you try something ranged, he breathes fire. There isn't a simple algorithm to stop Bowser from getting down; his aerial mobility is poor, but if having lower aerial mobility than your opponent's grounded mobility were a deal breaker, it would be impossible for the entire cast to land against Sonic which is of course not true. Other than aerial mobility, Bowser has pretty much the best possible tools to help him get down; if he has great difficulty, who has it easy?

 

[thehard]

The theory that if you don't make mistakes fast characters are best is true, but it's a moot point since even the very best players make large numbers of mistakes. Yeah when you watch someone like Charizard lose it's mostly him getting smacked around a lot by someone way faster, but that doesn't mean he couldn't have won if things had gone just a bit differently.

I think the point is while mistakes do happen, a lot of light characters still punish better than heavies. And "perfect play" only becomes more and more attainable the longer a game's competitive lifespan lasts.

How often do players counterpick from a light/medium to a heavy character? That sort of thing.

 

[Smog Frog]

as long as 20xx doesnt arrive, everyone barring some exceptions will be viable

 

[Antonykun]

as long as 20xx doesnt arrive, everyone barring some exceptions will be viable

"Even Swordfighter?"
"Especially Swordfighter"