Character Competitive Impressions

[Shaya]

Any early tier list discussion is BANNED
AND thoughtless balance suggestions

But, it's going to happen in some form or another. So here it is, please be careful and respectful.

Keep relative discussions on character strengths, weaknesses, abilities and viability to here.
You should avoid "definitely top tier" or "definitely low tier", or "second best character in the game" etc etc.
However, I'm sure anyone who has sat down to play the game or is now watching latest footage while also having a Melee or Brawl background will have an inkling or impression about differences. People know how match ups go for many characters in previous games, and considering the new tools or other changes that have occurred one could have an idea on how things will be different.

Furthermore discoveries that have heavily affected the viability of characters in the past, such as having a chain grab (Falco, Dedede) or being chain grabbed (Ness, Fox, Wario) may be brought up and discerned ("Snake may have many issues because if you grab his cypher while he recovers he doesn't get it back", "Dedede seems to be able to down throw chain grab a large portion of the cast at any percent").

For those who are interested in previous game tier lists or match up information to bolster their knowledge, please refer to here:
Latest Brawl Tier List: http://smashboards.com/threads/official-swf-tier-list-v8.335959/
Latest Brawl Match Up Chart: http://smashboards.com/threads/official-swf-matchup-chart-v3-0.338390/
Latest Melee Tier List: http://smashboards.com/threads/2013-community-tier-list.336113

 

[Anomalous Adam]

Link seems to be buffed a lot from his previously installment and is probably the best demo character so far from what I've played of him against level 9 cpu's(Outside of exploiting the villager's shovel grab). I dunno, just my two cents.

 

[Bedoop]

Although I only own the Demo, I guess I'll join the fun.

Link, in my eyes, is AMAZING compared to his Brawl Form. Not only is he a good character in range, but he's now able to get up-close-and-personal, big thanks to his new Dash Attack.
I've also seen that going; 'Bomb > Dash Attack' is pretty useful at low-mid percents.

But what do I know, I come from Brawl with little-to-no Advanced Experience. Sm4sh is hopefully my time of Glory.

 

[Shaya]

A thing to note is that between Melee and Brawl there was a general understanding that characters like Zelda or Bowser were buffed in every way and started earlier on being considered middle tier characters. Sometime character designs are still not sufficient to compete, even if they have received many buffs. The ability to approach and get a kill are two of the most important traits characters need, and even if they have longer range or better kill power, it may not be enough.

It feels like characters such as Bowser have finally been "normalised" a bit, to the extent at which he can compete while still having his same feel/design in previous games.

 

[Anomalous Adam]

Although I only own the Demo, I guess I'll join the fun.

Link, in my eyes, is AMAZING compared to his Brawl Form. Not only is he a good character in range, but he's now able to get up-close-and-personal, big thanks to his new Dash Attack.
I've also seen that going; 'Bomb > Dash Attack' is pretty useful at low-mid percents.

But what do I know, I come from Brawl with little-to-no Advanced Experience. Sm4sh is hopefully my time of Glory.

That's true about his dash attack, it's even mentioned as one of the tips on the demo that his dash attack has been buffed, haha. The tip says to strike with the tip!(Ironic, right?) although, it seems very punishable, I'll have to try that bomb idea. I'm going to be playing around with more of the characters but I'll update with any new impressions I get from the characters.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Characters that have impressed me are Rosalina, Bowser and Palutena.

Rosalina feels like the IC replacement and seems like a zoning goddess, Bowser just feels really nice to play as, has big hitboxes and relatively fast moves and Palutena feels like everything Zelda wanted to be. lol.

 

[Ffamran]

A thing to note is that between Melee and Brawl there was a general understanding that characters like Zelda or Bowser were buffed in every way and started earlier on being considered middle tier characters. Sometime character designs are still not sufficient to compete, even if they have received many buffs. The ability to approach and get a kill are two of the most important traits characters are rated on in all the games.

Yeah, the Prima Guide for Brawl was really wacky probably due to first impressions and misinformation - the author(s) didn't know you could even choose your direction for Fire Fox, Fire Bird, and Fire Wolf/Wolf Shoot.

As for my impressions: Ganondorf is wicked. He's really powerful and faster than in Brawl - he reminds me of Ike in Brawl. Ganondorf looks much more fluid than in Brawl.

 

[Anomalous Adam]

Yeah, the Prima Guide for Brawl was really wacky probably due to first impressions and misinformation - the author(s) didn't know you could even choose your direction for Fire Fox, Fire Bird, and Fire Wolf/Wolf Shoot.

When I first got Brawl I bought that guide. I think they had Toon Link, Marth, and Diddy as top characters. I actually hung onto every word back then, what a fool I was haha.

 

[Bedoop]

It appears Mario's cape puts him to a screeching halt, so Cape Gliding (as far as I know) is no longer possible.
However, this could be used like Game & Watch's 'Bucket Brake' and add to his survivability, but I'll have to look more into that.

 

[Ffamran]

When I first got Brawl I bought that guide. I think they had Toon Link, Marth, and Diddy as top characters. I actually hung onto every word back then, what a fool I was haha.

Captain Falcon was top tier too in that guide, but... Yeah... But now, I think the Capt.'s back!

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Pikachu seems to be really strong this time around. He can combo, gets kills pretty fast, and he's a generally fast character. He does die a bit fast, though. Most likely one of my favorite characters right now.

 

[Ffamran]

Pikachu seems to be really strong this time around. He can combo, gets kills pretty fast, and he's a generally fast character. He does die a bit fast, though. Most likely one of my favorite characters right now.

Kind of makes sense from a Pokémon stand point since Pikachu is a glass cannon.

 

[Anomalous Adam]

Has Pikachu's Up B been nerfed? Never really been a pikachu player but it seems shorter and he's not able to 'move' with it like he was before, now it seems like more of a recovery move.

 

[ミスティック Speed]

Has Pikachu's Up B been nerfed? Never really been a pikachu player but it seems shorter and he's not able to 'move' with it like he was before, now it seems like more of a recovery move.

No- in fact....it has the same, or longer range then before.

 

[The Light Music Club]

Pikachu feels better compared to Brawl, and Ike feels faster to me. Duck Hunt Dog has really impressed me though, as has Lucina.

Has Pikachu's Up B been nerfed? Never really been a pikachu player but it seems shorter and he's not able to 'move' with it like he was before, now it seems like more of a recovery move.

I actually think it's longer and seems to stun more than Brawl's version. The only thing I miss is that you can't QAC.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

Marth and Lucina are interesting. Marth definitely suffers some nerfs but I've seen players on stream adapt really well. I can't tell what this means for Marth long term but right now he's just a decently performing characters with some obvious flaws.

Falco seems to have suffered an overall nerf to the critical elements of his movesets, via startup on spike and ending lag on blaster. Jab, f-tilt, and d-tilt are all fantastic combo starters. I think we'll actually see a more in-the-fray, combat heavy falco this time around with the potential for some very interesting move strings. I hope his spike is still viable in the meta. His recovery has gotten buffed like crazy with the side-b -> up-b. He is probably not gonna be an easy gimp by super successful edgegaurds. Also, he might even be an increased threat while recovering because more falcos will be comfortable using side-b to recover knowing they can firebird later.

Shulk's range really is astounding. That's all I've got to say about him.

Need to gather impressions of Robin.

I'm very curious to see how Falcon and Dorf develop. I'm really hoping we see more priority and physics that are conducive to some pretty devestating combos. The stomp to knee gifycat that was on reddit gives me some hope that classic melee falcon is somewhat back but I don't know if it was a genuine combo or not.

All thoughts from watching stream. Don't put too much stock into my analysis

Just some thoughts Good analysis from everyone, imo. Excited to hear your thoughts guys. I see lots of opinions on every character but not really any consensus on any. Which is good, imo. It kind of shows this game is deeper than we thought.

 

[kataridragon]

I've seen some gameplay but I'm gonna stick with the demo charcters since that's all I have gotten to play with.

Mario:
Very good compared to other demo characters. Quick moves. Combos well. Lacks range.

Link:
The best in the demo IMO. Strong moves, Good range. His meteor makes him an even bigger threat then before. Recovery is improved greatly. Lacks combos.

Pikachu: Decent overall. Some strong attacks. Combos well. Nothing major. Landing lag.....

 

[ToadsterOven]

Two things I have a pretty strong feeling about that I feel many will agree with me on:

1. Metaknight according to @Zipzo 's popular retail demo impressions thread from last week has gotten some well deserved nerfs after he effectively made playing as just about anyone who's not him, Snake, Wario, Pikachu, Diddy Kong, or any other high ranking character on the Brawl tier list a very moot point. Notable ones being his shuttle loop working very differently in the absence of gliding and some of his attacks either getting some lag/startup time attached to them or just a nerf in general (doing not as much damage as in Brawl) This effectively means there is a 99.9% probability that we won't be seeing the mysterious swordsman from Dream Land with his own spot/rank this time. Of course, he will still be not one to mess with in the hands of experts, but from the sound of Zipzo's strong impressions of him in 4, competitive players who face off against Metaknight should they lose can at least know that they lost because their opponent was the better player, not because MK is cheap to use/abuse! This should gratify players who hated MK with a burning passion during the Brawl era, but particularly during the whole "METAKNIGHT MUST BE BANNED AT ALL COSTS!" debate (which for those demanding his ban was justified due to Brawl's godawful sense of roster balance)

2. After watching some Bowser gameplay on the 3DS version, I believe it is safe to say the King of the Koopas will be competitively viable this time instead of being a punching bag/low ranking tier scrappy like he was in Melee and Brawl. His big improvements in the speed/agility department and the total revamp of his moveset to compliment his newer healthier figure (courtesy of the Wii Fit Trainer?) will go a long way towards benefiting his approaching game as well as his KO game. It might be a stretch to say at this point in time that he will be one of the top used characters in competitive tournaments, but he will certainly see a great more deal of use than he did in Melee/Brawl era of big name tournaments. That much I feel is certain regarding Bowser, but time shall tell exactly where he stands overall competitively.

 

[Malcolm Belmont]

Based on what you have played, who do you think is going to be Top Tier. This is still early stages but there must be some standouts

 

[Mamp]

From what I've seen of the game so far, it looks very balanced. Imo, nobody stands out as being 'broken', and I feel like most, if not all characters will be viable from a competitive standpoint. Bowser, ZSS, DHD, Robin, Villager, Pikachu, and Dedede are the standouts atm tho. @Mew2King is of the opinion that Bowser is overpowered, but only time will tell; this is only day 1, after all!

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Link:
The best in the demo IMO. Strong moves, Good range. His meteor makes him an even bigger threat then before. Recovery is improved greatly. Lacks combos.

Link's combos at low % seem decent enough from what I've seen on Zero's youtube channel though. Dthrow, jab, utilt, bomb and the boomerang all look like they have combo potential. For what it's worth, I've yet to notice an outstanding weakness about Link but if he does turn out to have a major weakness I really, really doubt it's going to be combos.

Also Link's shield is ridiculous. He can block a fully charged Arcthunder of Robin by just standing there.

 

[Malcolm Belmont]

From what I've seen, Bowser, Zero Suit, Robin, DHD, Pikachu, Dedede, and Villager are all really good, but I think it's far too early to tell, or even think about putting together a tier list.

I know that but i still want to know who is good.Also is Little Mac good in 1v1?

 

[HermitHelmet]

FAAAR too early to tell, but Pac-Man, DHD, Falcon, and Palutena would be my early guesses.

 

[Raziek]

From what I've seen, Bowser, Zero Suit, Robin, DHD, Pikachu, Dedede, and Villager are all really good, but I think it's far too early to tell, or even think about putting together a tier list.

This list seems pretty accurate, I'm of the same opinion that all of these characters are at least strong, aside from maybe Pikachu.

 

[Malcolm Belmont]

Lucina actually looks pretty strong, anyone else agree?

 

[SamSun]

I only have the demo, so I'm a little limited in experience. but out of the demo characters, I think Villager is definitely the strongest.
His gyroid is probably the best move out of all the moves available in the demo, it covers the entire ground, and is quick enough that you can use it to cover your approach.

Pocket is a monster. it combined with gyroid makes it nearly impossible to get camped by opponents. (invincibility frames for what seems like 1/4 of the entire move? crazy)

Fair and Bair combined with your long lasting nair make for a very strong gimp game, not to mention that you can go literally as deep as you want, and still recover to the top blastzone. (best recovery in the game? I think Villager is un-gimpable)


I'm not impressed with Pikachu, except his Fair seems pretty hard for some characters to deal with.

Also, interesting thing I haven't seen many people mention, Pikachu can break out of a lot of combos by mashing Thunder. it seems to come out on frame 1? you can get the thunder to come down in the middle of Mario's utilt strings a lot of the time.

 

[Marcusjll]

Villager, ZSS and Lucina, maybe

 

[Raider 88]

I'm also not impressed with Pikachu. I feel like it's way harder to kill with pika in this game...and I think that's going to be a huge deal in Smash 4.

 

[iruchii]

I've played a lot with Dedede, Yoshi, Jigglypuff, Robin, Greninja and Bowser Jr. Here are my "pros and cons" write ups.

[Bowser Jr.]
+ Amazing midrange options
+ Very good tilts and aerials
+ Great (tech)chasing potential with SideB
+ SideB makes up for slow ground movement
+ Good recovery options
+ Decent projectile game
- KO moves are unreliable
- Few follow up on grabs
- Punishable start-ups
- Smash moves a tad too slow for their power
- Moves not very damaging, hard to rack up percentages

[Yoshi]
+ Very fast movements and recoveries
+ SHIELD DESTROYER with Dair and DownB
+ Safe and fast jab
+ Nair is godlike
+ Decently heavy, yet agile
+ Strong neutral game
+ Eggs are better than before
+ Bair is safe and pressures shields, KOs with last hit
- Recovery still lacking
- Gimping is too risky, so has to rely on smash attacks
- SideB and NeutralB still useless
- No double jump cancelling
- Reduced armor frames (?)

[Dedede]
+ Heavy as ****
+ Very strong aerial moves
+ Combos out of down and up throw
+ Extreme offstage prowess
+ Gordo Toss is risky, but a very strong tool
+ UpB now snaps to ledge
+ Dtilt is an amazing move and follow up
+ Finishers on jab and Ftilt are really good
- No more easy Bair gimping (although Bair kills now)
- DownB still useless
- Utilt nerfed -- not strong enough to kill, not weak enough to combo
- Dash attack is still suicide
- Heavy as ****
- Gordos can be reflected with any move

[Jigglypuff]
+ Queen of Offstage
+ Fair just strong enough to keep a wall of pain
+ Bair is a strong kill move now
+ Uair combos into itself, other aerials, and Rest
+ Rest is good again (not Melee good though)
+ Pound destroys shields and punishes air dodges
+ Buffed ground movement
+ Really good air and spot dodges
+ Recovery is still the same (great)
- UpB still useless
- NeutralB nerfed from Brawl
- Pound now stops you in the air, lagged on the ground
- Throws are hard to combo from
- Still lightest character in the game
- Still dies when shield breaks, which is more common than ever now

[Robin]
+ NeutralB is unpredictable and strong
+ SideB is spammable and provides great pressure
+ DThrow and UThrow can combo into aerials
+ FThrow kills at around 110%
+ Fast normals with decent hitboxes
+ Fair and Bair are great approaching moves
+ Jab combo is really good
+ Jab whiff is strong
- Bad, predictable recovery
- DownB is too situational, not very good at all
- Expendable tomes/sword only provide headaches
- No KO power without the electric sword or fully charged NeutralB
- No fast, reliable out-of-shield move
- Disappointing range for a sword-user
- Lightweight and floaty

[Greninja]
+ Fast as ****
+ Good fastfall speed
+ Slippery as **** with SideB and UpB
+ Smash attacks are great -- fast, long range, powerful
+ Fair is strong and safe
+ Dair provides good and safe shield pressure
+ NeutralB is a really good edgeguard tool
+ UpB and natural high jump make up for good recovery
- Utilt sucks, has less range than it appears, barely combos
- Ftilt and Dtilt do no damage at all, hard to rack percentages
- Weird movement properties
- Light and easy to get comboed
- Hard time KOing without smash moves, predictable
- DownB is bad, like Lucario bad

If I had to say, from what I've played with and against friends, Lucina, Duck Hunt, Sheik and Bowser are looking really strong. I also like Yoshi and Dedede a lot.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Gordos can be reflected with any move

Is it a proper reflection (Dedede takes damage, reflecting character is now immune) or just a deflection like Melee Mewtwo?

 

[iruchii]

Is it a proper reflection (Dedede takes damage, reflecting character is now immune) or just a deflection like Melee Mewtwo?

It's a proper reflection. Anything that hits a Gordo will send it back, and Dedede takes damage from them.

 

[goodspeed87]

Villager is incredible to me. So many tricks... his dash attack (potted plant) can hit below-stage at an angle. You can chop the tree off stage or drop the bowling ball down. That fair/bair slingshot is Brutal!! Zoning or off-stage finishes are insane with Lloid Rocket + fair/bair. Don't have a bad thing to say about the kid, mind-games & tricks for days.

 

[The Light Music Club]

FAAAR too early to tell, but Pac-Man, DHD, Falcon, and Palutena would be my early guesses.

Pac-Man? He's way too slow! The rest I can agree with. At least Palutena and DHD.

The newcomers I like the best:
Palutena
DHD
Villager
Lucina

Those are the top 4 I think out of newcomers. (Not in that order)

 

[Xinc]

Thoughts:

Link is beyond amazing. Forward Air and back air have almost nonexistent lag, dair spikes at the beginning of the attack and afterwards, the attack can be used as a kill move. It's also like TL's, as that it bounces twice on a shield and he gets no lag afterwards. The up air has a lot of landing lag but is pretty strong. He also has a different animation, which is slightly amusing. The boomerang seems better, the arrows are faster, but the bomb doesn't explode on shield. Nevertheless, it's a good item to hurt recovering opponents by throwing the bomb right over the ledge (double jump, down toss). The tether seems to be nerfed, as it comes out later, but he still doesn't get any landing lag if he whiffs it. Neutral air, I'm sure, has a chance to trip, as I managed to trip Mario once (not been able to recreate, sorry). Up tilt is a good move at low percents for combos and up smash is good under platforms. Overall, he's better than before, but still probably not as good as his PM counterpart.

Mario: He is good. With the physics change, he's gotten more options with retreat pivot ftilt or fsmash. His Up B is a kill move, and so is his tornado. The fireballs seem to last longer and the cape is still a good recovery, despite halting him in midair. His back air has low lag and is a good gimp move. His Up B still does that weird bump thing if he lands on the stage, though, oddly enough. His downthrow is an amazing combo starter, leading to up tilt or even a regrab. He can even string up airs and lead to a fair (even though doc is better with that) Best version of Mario to date.

Pika looks like his side B got buffed. It goes farther. The thunder combo breaker is an interesting change to him as well, especially since it looks like thunder goes thru a platform. His downsmash is difficult to SDI since we have no C stick, so it's easy for him to get all hits. It looks like his Neutral Air can send people off a semi spike angle at the near end of the hit.

Haven't really gotten the chance to play as Megaman or Villager yet.

 

[Supermario12]

I've played as Link in every smash and this is probably the best he's ever felt. His dash A is basically a smash attack, thats how powerful it is. He's also great at OK'ing, the best in the demo IMO.

Villager is great. His moves are extremely satisfying when pulled off . He's a weird balance between very powerful and very weak, its a unique style. P.S: OK'ing 3 players by cutting down the tree is one of the most satisfying things I've ever felt in smash.

Pikachu and Mario didn't seem to change so much IMO, but theres nothing wrong with them. I like how when Mario uses the cape now it makes the little spinning noise like it did in Super Mario World.

Over all the game runs really smooth, I can see all the characters movements, and most importantly you can pull off combos again. Demo gets a A in my eyes.

 

[adom4]

Any impressions on R.O.B so far?
He looks like he got pretty buffed.

 

[SmasherP83]

Every character looks as if they've improved so I hope to try them all out when the game is out.

 

[Tackman91]

I have some trouble killing stuff with Pikachu, it seems like his forward smash is his only move capable of killing at reasonable percentages and unless the CPUs do something stupid like putting themselves in a vulnerable state high up above me, I have a hard time connecting with it.

I see a lot of people very excited about Pikachu, so am I just missing something?

 

[The Light Music Club]

Right now my best characters are:

-----DHD,

-----
-----

Reflet is too slow though for me. I don't know why she's so slow, and some of her attacks (specials) are hard to hit with. Especially Nosfuratu, Gigafire isn't the best either.

 

[Auramaniji]

I'm pretty sure that everyone in the game is rather balanced out very well.
(What's the need to prove that one character's abilities is better than the rest, there could be possible updates on the game that changes it anyways.)