Character Competitive Impressions

[Nabbitnator]

Sorry, I realize that "crazy" might have implied "superior", "broken", or even "good". It's more like Mega Man: I actually like his 1111 setup, but think his other options are unusually different and interesting. Lucario is one the few characters I would actually counterpick customs on--in particular aura sphere options like you said.

Thoguh re: Lucario in general, note that I'm still rating Lucario higher than many here, including Dabuz. Don't shoot the messenger!



Peach is pretty good! Flexible options, good kill power; I'd be surprised she isn't being used more, but she's quirky and hard to pick up on a whim.

That's the main reason we don't see more peach players. She isn't like a get up and go character like diddy or shiek. It seems not a lot of people want to take the time to learn her ins and outs but she is a very good character.

 

[Shaya]

I will feel quite grim about Bowser Jr, especially without customs for time to come.
I've had quite a few encounters, and while he has pretty amazing combos, some of which can take 60-80%, that's almost all he has, and it really really shows. However, out of all the listings, BJ is one of the most contentious. I just don't see how this character gets kills (please don't list me his kill moves, I know them all and think they're bad), he has a terrible grab, and a third to half of his moveset is dysfunctional/useless. There's room to grow but I don't think he can compete as a solo main by any stretch unless you're godlike; I ran into Tweek at Apex, the NY/NJ Bowser Jr and for the most part he also feels the character is weak (although perhaps I've interpreted him a bit too severely), his only benefit being his insane damage output.

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I don't think of MK as a swordsman much at this stage, I think he is so accentuated around his dashing game that he barely uses his tilts or any other move for "poking" or spacing like you'd expect a swordsman to do. As someone mentioned (warionumber2?) he seems a lot more like a captain falcon. He's complete rush down and he can never do anything but that lest he's likely losing. From experiences, I don't see what stops him from doing his stuff although he treads on wire in terms of mistakes he's able to make. Among other things I believe I ledge cancelled shuttle loop on town and city's higher platforms and was hence able to "combo" shuttle loop into shuttle loop which killed, was glorious.
Oh yeah, and Meta Knight off stage? It isn't brain dead like sheik but it's highly effective, I'm confident that getting a back air off stage against someone will be a stock taken for like 90% of the cast at any percent, while cleanly killing people as low as 60%.


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I'll consider Lucario bad until someone can show us something in tournament. I always make the Ganondorf comparison for one extreme yet the other one that hurts is Mario. He has similar short range but no weaknesses in his mobility, his frame data has little holes and his ability to combo, rack up damage, camp/zone and finding the kill seem to reflect on how underwhelming Lucario's neutral/moveset actually is; especially if you're to contrast him to Brawl. You would play Lucario in a similar fashion as Mario but come out behind in every situation until you're at 70-100%, at which point the most viable characters are starting to look for kills (with set ups that will do the job) while Lucario will need to start looking for hard reads/super mess ups from the opponent due to fear. I'm sure the dynamic is there for a really solid player to take out characters and sets against great players, but I just don't think he can be anything but middle tier due to his weaknesses/deficiencies.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Lucario isn't misunderstood. He's just...not scary. He gets great reward off a read when he has aura. He has some nice grab set-ups.

He has NOTHING safe on block., besides spaced AS and jab 1 I suppose.

What is there to misunderstand?

How does he attack.? Or do anything that isn't a guess?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Melee puff is disappointed in you.

Difference is Yoshi doesn't have an aerial like Jiggly bair he can spam along with multiple jumps.

20XX will still shutdown hungrybox which is kinda why he won paragon, only like 1 god was there while I guess MM 500-1k is the next big thing to create "hype" since there was like 2 or 3 callouts for money matches the past few days on the smash reddit.

 

[Conda]

Default pkt os best because when using it as a projectile, it dissipates on hit. When you hit with lasting pkt, it continues and you have to hit the ground with it to end it. This was why Ness's was better than Lucas's in Brawl as a projectile for this reason too.

 

[TTTTTsd]

@ Shaya your placing of my character seems correct but I'm having trouble deciding whether the Doctor is C or D. Only going by some recounts from the general idea that he handles stuff like Luigi better than Mario does, it might be safer to relegate him as C tier niche for counterpicks like that until we figure out where his meta goes/any future developments.

Dunno, just a gut feeling. Otherwise list seems pretty spot on honestly. High tier Luigi is funny but it's real in this game.

 

[Steam]

Lucario isn't misunderstood. He's just...not scary. He gets great reward off a read when he has aura. He has some nice grab set-ups.

He has NOTHING safe on block., besides spaced AS and jab 1 I suppose.

What is there to misunderstand?

How does he attack.

Spaced nair, spaced bair, spaced ftilt (usually) and aurasphere charge are all safe on block (aurasphere charge is essentially unblockable and sets up a tech chase on a lot of characters). And at higher aura shield stun goes up, so a lot more stuff becomes safe. Of course no one's seen all that stuff unless they've played kami or I, so it makes sense people think he's bad.

 

[FullMoon]

I see you really did pick up Greninja, @ Nabbitnator =P

As far as customs are concerned for Greninja, I think Shifting Shuriken is the only one that really matters and it can be a real game changer. It has transcendent priority like fully charged Water Shuriken (just tested it, it goes through Lucario's charged Aura Sphere at max Aura no problem), is a bit slower but still a decently fast projectile, and it very easily combos into Up-Smash, which allows Greninja to score kills very early.

Right off the bat the MUs that are made easier with Shifting Shuriken are Rosalina (shuriken goes through Luma and hits Rosa for some Up-Smash goodness), Sonic (hits him out of Spin Dash right into a combo), Bowser Jr, Duck Hunt, Megaman, and R.O.B because it goes through the projectiles that usually stop normal shurikens like Mecha Koopas and Gyro. There might be others, but these are the ones that come into mind.

I think with Shifting Shuriken Greninja can be a very scary opponent to fight because once you are at kill percent, being hit by the shurikens is pretty much a guaranteed KO unless the Greninja messes up and misses the Up-Smash. The big problem with it is the lag in the move making you unable to spam it without risking getting punished. So against characters like Captain Falcon, Little Mac and most heavies I think normal shurikens might be better for disrupting them.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Spaced nair, spaced bair, and aurasphere charge are all safe on block (aurasphere charge is essentially unblockable and sets up a tech chase on a lot of characters). And at higher aura shield stun goes up, so a lot more stuff becomes safe. Of course no one's seen all that stuff unless they've played kami or I, so it makes sense people think he's bad.

I will give you bair. Though it's not exactly what I would call a solid pressure tool. Nair I'm not so sure on. I would think thats match-up dependent. I don't think Bowser or DK would have difficulty punishing that.

Also you being good at the game doesnt mean your character isn't inferior. Case in point, look at the character that represents my avatar.

Also I actually won't say he's bad. I think he's average backed up by an incredibly powerful game breaking mechanic.

 

[NairWizard]

I don't buy the negative nancy train. Even with her crappy default specials, she is not a bottom 5 character. There's just no way. All of her gimmicks make her just too flexible, and her grab reward + workable KO potential keeps an otherwise lackluster skeleton from actually being a bad character. Yes, her d-tilt sucks. Diddy's jab sucks, so hopefully Palutena mains can copy their innovative solution of not using that move. Of course, that might not be a fair comparison since Diddy has crazy true combos out of d-throw, but... Oh wait.

I think that she is a bottom-5 character just because of the characters that she's surrounded by at the bottom. People are drastically underrating Swordfighter, Samus, and other perceived bottom-5 in this game; they are not nearly as bad as you think. Intelligently played Dededes are way more fearsome than intelligently played Palutenas with default movesets.

Her normals don't give her many options, especially in close-range situations, and she has an abnormally large hurtbox given her weight (Rosalina is comparable, but Rosalina has Luma, which keeps people out). Once you get in on Palutena she is functionally a light Ganon with bad options and better escapes from combos (just Warp, mostly; it's hard to escape with her n-air).

Now, you're making a mistake if you conflate bottom 5 with bad. I don't think that Palutena is bad, just not above 5 or more other characters in this game.

Let it be forever known that anyone who says is the worst character in the game is wrong. Just totally, absolutely wrong. Everyone wants to reduce Little Mac to this simplistic, binary character with a flawed design:

It seems to me that you're reducing the argument against Little Mac as well. I don't think that Little Mac is the worst character in the game because you throw him off the stage and he dies, no. Rather, he's so polarizing that I think he has more bad matchups (and more here indicates degree as well) than just about anyone else. There are many matchups where Little Mac is facing so much of an uphill climb that he you may as well select someone else, and I'm not just talking about Diddy and Sheik (though Sheik is strong against Mac). If a tier list is meant to indicate competitive viability, then Little Mac is the least viable solo main, perhaps next to Zelda and default Swordfighter. But if your tier list doesn't value consistency (and you consider, say, secondary potential, which Little Mac does have), then LM is higher.

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@people who mentioned Peach: no, she isn't just underused because she's hard to use. She also has legitimate problems against the Top Tiers. She has trouble against characters who can swat her with massive autocanceled aerials--hello Diddy, hello Sheik. Peach is a great character who oozes KO power for some reason and does massive damage and has loads of options, but it's just a case of bad MU ratios against popular characters. She probably passes the bar against Pikachu, Sonic, Olimar, Fox, ZSS... man, basically everyone! But then she's lousy against the game's two best characters (and maybe Mario/Luigi/Villager too, actually; not to sugarcoat the truth). At least for now.

If she could just get a better Sheik OR Diddy MU everything would change for her, and she would probably be Top Tier. Just one MU close to even among the top two. I think she can do it against Sheik, but it will take some development of her metagame to get there.

 

[Shaya]

Oh and I love Palutena a lot and hardly think she's bad.
But I as I said before, the D tier is a bit of a cop out, because someone has to be there. And when we're looking at things, it seems that the characters that best suit that region are those we know can be better but aren't doing so easily at all.

Also all those things you mentioned Steam as safe are all slower 'set ups' than reaction speed and are mildly consistent punishes otherwise.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I think that she is a bottom-5 character just because of the characters that she's surrounded by at the bottom. People are drastically underrating Swordfighter, Samus, and other perceived bottom-5 in this game; they are not nearly as bad as you think. Intelligently played Dededes are way more fearsome than intelligently played Palutenas with default movesets.

Her normals don't give her many options, especially in close-range situations, and she has an abnormally large hurtbox given her weight (Rosalina is comparable, but Rosalina has Luma, which keeps people out). Once you get in on Palutena she is functionally a light Ganon with bad options and better escapes from combos (just Warp, mostly; it's hard to escape with her n-air).

Now, you're making a mistake if you conflate bottom 5 with bad. I don't think that Palutena is bad, just not above 5 or more other characters in this game.



It seems to me that you're reducing the argument against Little Mac as well. I don't think that Little Mac is the worst character in the game because you throw him off the stage and he dies, no. Rather, he's so polarizing that I think he has more bad matchups (and more here indicates degree as well) than just about anyone else. There are many matchups where Little Mac is facing so much of an uphill climb that he you may as well select someone else, and I'm not just talking about Diddy and Sheik (though Sheik is strong against Mac). If a tier list is meant to indicate competitive viability, then Little Mac is the least viable solo main, perhaps next to Zelda and default Swordfighter. But if your tier list doesn't value consistency (and you consider, say, secondary potential, which Little Mac does have), then LM is higher.

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@people who mentioned Peach: no, she isn't just underused because she's hard to use. She also has legitimate problems against the Top Tiers. She has trouble against characters who can swat her with massive autocanceled aerials--hello Diddy, hello Sheik. Peach is a great character who oozes KO power for some reason and does massive damage and has loads of options, but it's just a case of bad MU ratios against popular characters. She probably passes the bar against Pikachu, Sonic, Olimar, Fox, ZSS... man, basically everyone! But then she's lousy against the game's two best characters (and maybe Mario/Luigi/Villager too, actually; not to sugarcoat the truth). At least for now.

If she could just get a better Sheik OR Diddy MU everything would change for her, and she would probably be Top Tier. Just one MU close to even among the top two. I think she can do it against Sheik, but it will take some development of her metagame to get there.

Mario and Luigi seem even for her. Now villager I don't know. Sheik seems like it can be doable in time but it can only happen once more people dabble with what they can do with her tools.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I think this is a pretty good tier lgh I think Greninja and Olimar should be in B+. Bowser Jr should be in C and Charizard could also be in B-. Those are just minor nitpicks though.

I'm a bit confused on Shulk though. His Smashes are all laggy even if they have a lot of reach and his recovery is very gimpable. I understand that the arts allow him to adapt to situations, but that still doesn't change the fact that his Smashes are all laggy which makes him very easy to punish, Air Slash doesn't immediatelly grab the ledge which could be a problem for him as well. His F-Air a N-Air are really good though, but I don't it really makes up for the rest.

Buster and Smash help him deal damage and kill, respectively, but they also help the opponent damage and kill him faster, so using those arts is a bit of a gamble since it really can go both ways. Jump and Speed are very good, yes, though Speed suffers a bit with Shulk's laggy smashes. Jump helps him recover better though, which is great, I don't know what drawbacks those two arts have though. Shield is... I don't know.

As far as his other specials go, Vision is an amazing counter, Backslash is pretty bad unless you get good reads and Air Slash is good for killing I think, but as a recovery it's not that good.

So I think Shulk should be in B-. He's a very adaptable character with the Monado Arts, but at the same time it's not too hard to use them against him, I feel.

Feel free to correct me though. I don't know much about him.

Here are some considerations.
Aerial lag can be canceled by a precast Art activation which gives him multiple follow ups. Shield Art decreases shield stun and effective health of the shield to approx ~75 health instead of 50.
Reduced shield stun makes oppositions moves *less safe*. This also applies to him to a slightly lesser degree.

Speed doesn't really have qualm with his smashes. You can hypen Usmash regardless and force a reposition with his dash grab and condition them to defend against your grab freeing up his aerials. This is in addition to him breaking through projectile games with strong air and ground speed.

Buster gives shulk more damage then it does his opposition. It ends up making his unsafe moves safe via additional shield stun, besides the follow up benefits.

Jumps drawback is 20% more damage received.

Anyways shulks utilt,ftilt,fsmash,usmash,dsmash,bair,uair, air slash kill so he's not hard pressed for a smash. Not to disregard a fluke Back Slash, F-air chain, difficult d-air off stage, or a rather obnoxiously strong counter. Basically only thing he doesn't kill with is..... Umm dtilt,jab, Nair, and throws.

Which is also why I stopped complaining about Lucario.

His qualm is start-up basically making Grab/jab/shield his best friends, neither grab or jab have his otherwise impressive range. The end lag on his moves isn't even a biggie. If he had the 5 frame startups that others have...oh lawd. Everyone respect his utilt though and given speed shulk basically walks faster then Kirby runs... He doesn't have problems forcing a decision in advantage.

Food for thought.

 

[FullMoon]

Here are some considerations.
Aerial lag can be canceled by a precast Art activation which gives him multiple follow ups. Shield Art decreases shield stun and effective health of the shield to approx ~75 health instead of 50.
Reduced shield stun makes oppositions moves *less safe*. This also applies to him to a slightly lesser degree.

Speed doesn't really have qualm with his smashes. You can hypen Usmash regardless and force a reposition with his dash grab and condition them to defend against your grab freeing up his aerials. This is in addition to him breaking through projectile games with strong air and ground speed.

Buster gives shulk more damage then it does his opposition. It ends up making his unsafe moves safe via additional shield stun, besides the follow up benefits.

Jumps drawback is 20% more damage received.

Anyways shulks utilt,ftilt,fsmash,usmash,dsmash,bair,uair, air slash kill so he's not hard pressed for a smash. Not to disregard a fluke Back Slash, F-air chain, difficult d-air off stage, or a rather obnoxiously strong counter. Basically only thing he doesn't kill with is..... Umm dtilt,jab, Nair, and throws.

Which is also why I stopped complaining about Lucario.

His qualm is start-up basically making Grab/jab/shield his best friends, neither grab or jab have his otherwise impressive range. The end lag on his moves isn't even a biggie. If he had the 5 frame startups that others have...oh lawd. Everyone respect his utilt though and given speed shulk basically walks faster then Kirby runs... He doesn't have problems forcing a decision in advantage.

Food for thought.

I see. I've gone against plenty of Shulks before and for the most part we were in even ground, though the constant n-air spam approach that most of them seem to do all the time is really annoying. I never really understood how he played so I think I understand him a bit better now. I can see why he'd be in mid-high now.

 

[Tagxy]

I hate Brawl because I DO understand it.

Even without the BS, the majority of the cast simply can't compete at a high level.

Redundant, the BS is why much of the cast couldnt compete. At its core it had very deep gameplay.

Anyways;

I think most people have a pretty accurate representation of pika with the current meta. I'm honestly super excited for the future of this character and have so much Id like to share about him, I just dont want him to do well until after the next balance patch.

Well alright heres one thing Ill share since it came courtesty of @Budget Player Cadet_ . Yesterday I decided to test some things regarding fair. Fair doesnt combo into pikachus moveset besides up-angled ftilt, grab, and jab. Not bad but dash attack has the same frame data as ftilt so it seemed weird it wouldnt work. I tested it a bit, it seems to only have one frame to window thats almost impossible to get due to the way buffering works.

After a bit of testing I finally figured out by fastfalling fair right after the last hit that connects with the opponent (or earlier), pikachu hits the ground a couple frames earlier and has time to f-tilt, grab, jab, dash attack, and dtilt (this will be a big deal later). There's also certain conditions that allow him to combo fair to upsmash (involves him getting popped into the air after the second hit, then falling to the ground before being able to jump.) This makes fair > dash attack a reliable kill move around 140%-150% at 0 rage. Fair to upsmash is less consistent, but you should be able to recognize the situation and react accordingly.

I rate this 4 out of 5 stars on coolness. More to come after the patch.

 

[Cenizas]

This is more of a pet peeve than anything, but it absolutely irks me whenever Dark Pit is above regular Pit in any tier list. From the known differences, I don't understand why people would think Dark Pit is better than Pit ever.

Electroshock's knocks back people best when used closer to the ledge because of its 45 degree angle. The 90 degree angle on upperdash makes it so that it can be used more consistently for kills. Pit's KB on f-tilt is flat out better, period. And, Dark Pit's more damaging arrows don't seem as notable as the ones you can actually aim well with. While they're both good characters, Dark Pit only seems good to me because he has the majority of Pit's moves. The most I can see from Dark Pit is being used is in an MU where the other character has bad horizontal recovery or a stage with closer horizontal blast zones, which isn't even that big of deal when Pit has a good f-tilt.

Thoughts?

 

[Shaya]

I didn't really intend to say that Dark Pit was better than Regular Pit. But the Rosalina match up difference is quite crucial and even with everything else on Pit being 'better', fact is DP one shots Luma on reaction from 1/3rd of the stage away at any time, easily putting his MU with her 5 to 10 points better (or more for all we know). Everything else in every other match up is generally situational, where aiming arrows is probably putting 5 points extra on regular Pit in quite a few match ups but it isn't game changing in what we've seen him played in thus far.

 

[Cenizas]

I didn't really intend to say that Dark Pit was better than Regular Pit. But the Rosalina match up difference is quite crucial and even with everything else on Pit being 'better', fact is DP one shots Luma on reaction from 1/3rd of the stage away at any time, easily putting his MU with her 5 to 10 points better (or more for all we know). Everything else in every other match up is generally situational, where aiming arrows is probably putting 5 points extra on regular Pit in quite a few match ups but it isn't game changing in what we've seen him played in thus far.

That's pretty interesting, I'm not that well versed in (Dark) Pit or Rosalina, so the more you know I suppose.

 

[Asdioh]

I just did some looking to Kirby's customs in more detail and have some questions for @Reserved.

I didn't realize Upper Cutter was (f5) invincible. That's actually pretty nice, more of a recovery improvement than I thought.

Hey where'd you get that info? I once made a post in an attempt to find frame data on some of Kirby's specials, and I noticed that Upper Cutter lost to frame 5 moves, but beat out (rather than traded with, like I expected) frame 6 moves. Is the invincibility really frame 5? Maybe only on the aerial version? Fun fact, aerial Upper Cutter actually goes higher than the grounded version. Final Cutter is the opposite.

Meteor Stone is nice, but I don't ultimately see it as a huge improvement. It's a lot of trouble, harder to land, and tbqh normal Stone has crazy KO power anyway--enough to KO most off-stage opponents. I'd probably use Burying Stone in most matchups, since it's just so much more useable.

Neither do I. As far as customs-off goes, I think Stone is Kirby's most viable special in this game. It is an amazing edgeguard against so many characters, and it's not a gimmick. Meteor Stone makes it even more deadly, but outside of trumping, I don't know if the risk is worth it. I don't know if I agree with Burying Stone, the only time that move is better than default Stone is when used on stage, and I basically never use Stone on stage anyway. Reserved tells me Burying Stone is pretty safe even if you whiff it onstage, but I'm not sure I buy it.

What I suspect the biggest difference of opinion is, is the value of Kirby's neutral-b options. They seem pretty good--frankly strictly superior, but not a huge upgrade? I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on these options specifically.

Well, default Inhale is trash tier, so since Jumping Inhale gives you Babby's First Monkey Flip, it's pretty nice. Ice Breath is viable in some matchups, at least.

I just think Upper Cutter by itself is one of the best customs period. Top 20 at least (out of 376!)

I didn't really intend to say that Dark Pit was better than Regular Pit. But the Rosalina match up difference is quite crucial and even with everything else on Pit being 'better', fact is DP one shots Luma on reaction from 1/3rd of the stage away at any time, easily putting his MU with her 5 to 10 points better (or more for all we know). Everything else in every other match up is generally situational, where aiming arrows is probably putting 5 points extra on regular Pit in quite a few match ups but it isn't game changing in what we've seen him played in thus far.

Kinda interesting how that itty bitty Luma can change a character's tier spot by itself. Kinda like how I debate taking Inhale or Jumping Inhale against Rosa, since default Inhale practically 1hkos Luma if you spit rosalina at it.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So, uh, why would you ever spit Rosalina at Luma? Rosalina's power for Kirby is amazing; it just beats everything since your fake Luma isn't hittable. I don't really fear Kirby in general, but he does have two things that worry me as Rosalina. He's really tiny and Rosalina often struggles to hit characters that small (grab whiffing landing lag animations in particular is always infuriating when it happens), and the power he can steal from her is extremely obnoxious. I'd think which Inhale variant you chose would be based mostly off whichever one was most likely to let you steal my power, which is probably Jumping Inhale.

I also see the primary value of Stone and variants as a juggle escape. I pop you up in the air and go for a chase, and if I just go in hard you Stone through (provided you're launched high enough to have time of course, but as Kirby who is both light and floaty that should happen a lot). I might go up more cautiously to try to bait Stone out, but of course you in that case don't actually Stone and just get down more easily than you would otherwise. There's some aspect of prediction here back and forth on it, but it's just an extra dynamic I have to worry about when juggling Kirby that I don't have to worry about and respect when juggling most other characters. Of course, this would seem to also suggest default Stone as the best option overall, but that's just how I look at that move and how it plays out.

The interesting thing is that we probably agree on which customs are most dangerous with Kirby but feel that way for different reasons.

 

[Thinkaman]

Hey where'd you get that info? I once made a post in an attempt to find frame data on some of Kirby's specials, and I noticed that Upper Cutter lost to frame 5 moves, but beat out (rather than traded with, like I expected) frame 6 moves. Is the invincibility really frame 5? Maybe only on the aerial version? Fun fact, aerial Upper Cutter actually goes higher than the grounded version. Final Cutter is the opposite.

I tested it myself, but it was a quick and dirty test. I'd sooner believe it's f6 and my single test was wrong.

Reserved tells me Burying Stone is pretty safe even if you whiff it onstage, but I'm not sure I buy it.

In my limited experience, it sort of is? "Pretty safe" is hard to quantify.

I just think Upper Cutter by itself is one of the best customs period. Top 20 at least (out of 376!)

Wow, really? I mean, I think it's his best option, but it doesn't wow me. I guess I can see how you could view it that way though?

 

[Asdioh]

Wow, really? I mean, I think it's his best option, but it doesn't wow me. I guess I can see how you could view it that way though?

It could be because I'm used to Kirby's specials being unusable trash for 1v1 in every smash game. But Upper Cutter gives him a ZSS-type kill option off the top, a Marth-type UpB OoS, and a ridiculously good recovery/stagespike.

So, uh, why would you ever spit Rosalina at Luma?

Because it's satisfying! You're right though, if you take her power, you basically get a free way to knock luma away anytime you want. Unless of course you get hit once and lose the power from RNG, because you gotta keep it canon to the Kirby games!

I also see the primary value of Stone and variants as a juggle escape. I pop you up in the air and go for a chase, and if I just go in hard you Stone through (provided you're launched high enough to have time of course, but as Kirby who is both light and floaty that should happen a lot). I might go up more cautiously to try to bait Stone out, but of course you in that case don't actually Stone and just get down more easily than you would otherwise. There's some aspect of prediction here back and forth on it, but it's just an extra dynamic I have to worry about when juggling Kirby that I don't have to worry about and respect when juggling most other characters. Of course, this would seem to also suggest default Stone as the best option overall, but that's just how I look at that move and how it plays out.

I don't really see it. I guess you're right about Stone being dangerous in that "the option is there" but nobody really ever gets hit by Stone when chasing Kirby upwards. A good player will avoid it and punish every time.

The interesting thing is that we probably agree on which customs are most dangerous with Kirby but feel that way for different reasons.

Nah probably not. Upper Cutter is unquestionably the best. Final Cutter and Wave Cutter have niche uses, but those are outclassed by Upper Cutter being available at any time. Jumping Inhale is easier to land than default, so yeah. The hammers are all gimmicks, but Hammer Bash is probably the best, since it kills light characters vertically quite early, and is kinda safe if you jump and use it. Stones I believe are preference, and I prefer default.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So, uh, why would you ever spit Rosalina at Luma? Rosalina's power for Kirby is amazing; it just beats everything since your fake Luma isn't hittable. I don't really fear Kirby in general, but he does have two things that worry me as Rosalina. He's really tiny and Rosalina often struggles to hit characters that small (grab whiffing landing lag animations in particular is always infuriating when it happens), and the power he can steal from her is extremely obnoxious. I'd think which Inhale variant you chose would be based mostly off whichever one was most likely to let you steal my power, which is probably Jumping Inhale.

I also see the primary value of Stone and variants as a juggle escape. I pop you up in the air and go for a chase, and if I just go in hard you Stone through (provided you're launched high enough to have time of course, but as Kirby who is both light and floaty that should happen a lot). I might go up more cautiously to try to bait Stone out, but of course you in that case don't actually Stone and just get down more easily than you would otherwise. There's some aspect of prediction here back and forth on it, but it's just an extra dynamic I have to worry about when juggling Kirby that I don't have to worry about and respect when juggling most other characters. Of course, this would seem to also suggest default Stone as the best option overall, but that's just how I look at that move and how it plays out.

The interesting thing is that we probably agree on which customs are most dangerous with Kirby but feel that way for different reasons.

Spitting Rosalina out sends Luma flying over half the length of Smashville. It's a pretty reliable way to kill it since AFAIK Luma can't attack as long as Rosalina is inside Kirby.

Not to say it's better than copying Rosalina and using that instead, but it's something Kirby can do.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

It could be because I'm used to Kirby's specials being unusable trash for 1v1 in every smash game. But Upper Cutter gives him a ZSS-type kill option off the top, a Marth-type UpB OoS, and a ridiculously good recovery/stagespike.

Because it's satisfying! You're right though, if you take her power, you basically get a free way to knock luma away anytime you want. Unless of course you get hit once and lose the power from RNG, because you gotta keep it canon to the Kirby games!

I don't really see it. I guess you're right about Stone being dangerous in that "the option is there" but nobody really ever gets hit by Stone when chasing Kirby upwards. A good player will avoid it and punish every time.

Nah probably not. Upper Cutter is unquestionably the best. Final Cutter and Wave Cutter have niche uses, but those are outclassed by Upper Cutter being available at any time. Jumping Inhale is easier to land than default, so yeah. The hammers are all gimmicks, but Hammer Bash is probably the best, since it kills light characters vertically quite early, and is kinda safe if you jump and use it. Stones I believe are preference, and I prefer default.

I'm right there with you
Upper > Wave >Final
Bash > Flip > Giant (though I blew off giant very quickly)
Stone/Gstone >= Meteor.
Jumping >Ice > Inhale.

Jumping is good even if the copy ability you would receive is bad.

I recently started seeing more potency in Hammer Flip, but I'd still go with Bash because it is a respectable punish option, I do appreciate the jump boost, and I like it in the air.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I will give you bair. Though it's not exactly what I would call a solid pressure tool. Nair I'm not so sure on. I would think thats match-up dependent. I don't think Bowser or DK would have difficulty punishing that.

Also you being good at the game doesnt mean your character isn't inferior. Case in point, look at the character that represents my avatar.

Also I actually won't say he's bad. I think he's average backed up by an incredibly powerful game breaking mechanic.

those nair's to tipper f smash's killing at 50% still hurt >.<

 

[Steam]

I will give you bair. Though it's not exactly what I would call a solid pressure tool. Nair I'm not so sure on. I would think thats match-up dependent. I don't think Bowser or DK would have difficulty punishing that.

Also you being good at the game doesnt mean your character isn't inferior. Case in point, look at the character that represents my avatar.

Also I actually won't say he's bad. I think he's average backed up by an incredibly powerful game breaking mechanic.

I'm not trying to flaunt skill, in fact I'm doing the opposite. I'm trying to say the character has options/technology that exists that most players haven't even seen or are aware of but none of the lucario mains have it together enough to place in high profile events with it or live in unknown regions. For any given character that reached apex top 16 we've pretty much seen all they're capable of at this point in the metagame. At the same time everyone freaks out the first time they get aurasphere charge -> JC upsmashed by lucario because no one knows he can do that. bair is bad for pressure but nair when spaced is solid because of 0 landing lag. He also still has the mechanic from brawl where he can start sideB in the air and have the grab instantly come out when he lands, that in itself is huge at kill% to keep people from feeling safe in their shield.

 

[Emblem Lord]

2 things

1) In the end its going to come down to match-ups. Who does Lucario beat and why. He MIGHT beat Sheik. Who else? I think Diddy beats him. ZSS as well. Maybe Sonic. Losing to 3 of the 4 best chars in the game does not bode well. I think the Pits beat him too for the record. I feel anyone that can exert dominance over him in neutral which is not THAT difficult because his tools are kind of limited will give him a hard time.

2) Mark my words on this day. ZSS, Sheik, and Diddy are the strongest in the game and they have a ton of room to grow. Give it 6 months. They WILL invalidate half the cast if not more.

 

[Smog Frog]

are you implying that other characters dont have similar room to grow? also, i can honestly only imagine like 1/3rd of the cast being invalidated, if not less.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

2 things

1) In the end its going to come down to match-ups. Who does Lucario beat and why. He MIGHT beat Sheik. Who else? I think Diddy beats him. ZSS as well. Maybe Sonic. Losing to 3 of the 4 best chars in the game does not bode well. I think the Pits beat him too for the record. I feel anyone that can exert dominance over him in neutral which is not THAT difficult because his tools are kind of limited will give him a hard time.

2) Mark my words on this day. ZSS, Sheik, and Diddy are the strongest in the game and they have a ton of room to grow. Give it 6 months. They WILL invalidate half the cast if not more.

Don't scare me >.<

 

[Shaya]

Inevitable competitive 'fate'.

 

[HeroMystic]

It is inevitable, just not sure if it'll just be those three and not four, five, or maybe even ten characters.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

That's why low tier heroes are da best

 

[warionumbah2]

Some characters are already invalid against the top characters. If the character has bad MU against the most common tournament picks then wow.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

meh whatever not gunna stop me from using what ever character i want. if im gunna win its gunna be on my terms.

 

[Tagxy]

It wont be strongest per say, but most popular, even though these tend to correlate. In Brawl having a good MU vs wolf was more relevant then having a good MU vs Pika. That didnt stop pika from being good.

Also even though I understand it I kind of lol at ZSS and Sonic being so high in peeps list because I feel like pikachu wrecks them. Rosalina too kind of.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I already feel invalidated playing against ZSS.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Redundant, the BS is why much of the cast couldnt compete. At its core it had very deep gameplay.

Anyways;

I think most people have a pretty accurate representation of pika with the current meta. I'm honestly super excited for the future of this character and have so much Id like to share about him, I just dont want him to do well until after the next balance patch.

Well alright heres one thing Ill share since it came courtesty of @Budget Player Cadet_ . Yesterday I decided to test some things regarding fair. Fair doesnt combo into pikachus moveset besides up-angled ftilt, grab, and jab. Not bad but dash attack has the same frame data as ftilt so it seemed weird it wouldnt work. I tested it a bit, it seems to only have one frame to window thats almost impossible to get due to the way buffering works.

After a bit of testing I finally figured out by fastfalling fair right after the last hit that connects with the opponent (or earlier), pikachu hits the ground a couple frames earlier and has time to f-tilt, grab, jab, dash attack, and dtilt (this will be a big deal later). There's also certain conditions that allow him to combo fair to upsmash (involves him getting popped into the air after the second hit, then falling to the ground before being able to jump.) This makes fair > dash attack a reliable kill move around 140%-150% at 0 rage. Fair to upsmash is less consistent, but you should be able to recognize the situation and react accordingly.

I rate this 4 out of 5 stars on coolness. More to come after the patch.

What you did sounds like the frame cancel Falco can do with his Dair.

Is this what this is then, a frame cancelled Pika Fair? Or is it different?

 

[webbedspace]

(2:28:10) What the frig happened to the KO punch? (Yes, I know Mario was at 10%, but, really.)

 

[Lavani]

(2:28:10) What the frig happened to the KO punch? (Yes, I know Mario was at 10%, but, really.)

Aerial KO Punch. Does way less damage and knockback.

 

[PMMikey]

I'm seeing in a lot of these tier list that Lucina is being placed very low. Yeah she doesn't have tippers like Marth but she way more viable than what everyone is placing her at.