Character Competitive Impressions

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I'm actually curious about actual advice to give players. This is an easy playstyle to perform as Villager, so countering it should be easy yet I couldn't find that to be the case.

I know there must be something I was missing, but the recommendations from you guys that players need to change characters and counterpick is worrisome. All it is is basic all-bases-covered camping, I doubt it's actually dominant enough to require specific tools. But that is definitely my current impression, which I'm looking to change via insight and knowledge.

...btw, what stage were you on?

 

[Conda]

...btw, what stage were you on?

Omegas

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Omegas

Which ones specifically?

 

[Conda]

Which ones specifically?

It was a dozen matches, I couldn't tell you. I'm aware of the possible differences of each, but again citing stage choice importance as an element important to countering such braindead safe camp-play is still worrisome. There has to be a more logical solution.

Whoops, Meta-Fixed.

Meta Knight's a boss.
Secretly the best ****ing character in the game still, holy ****.

I think he's higher than I placed him (B-), but eh, I only feel like he's going to go up.
You're definitely rewarded for precision with this character, and he comes with the mobility specs and ground tools (dash attack/grab, rolls) to compete with all of the best.
Tyrant probably has the best MK in the world, on numerous occasions he's pushed ZeRo a lot further with the bat than his monkey-rat.
Dimension Cape makes me moist.
I want to see perfect MK; because it has everything you've ever wanted. Combos and juggles that won't end until death every time.

What qualities do you think make him more and less viable as a solomain compared to other swordies/speedsters? What character (between Marth, MK, Shulk, or Ike) do you think reigns supreme as the sword-only archetype?

I'm feeling your unbridled enthusiasm may be a shock to people who aren't under the same impressions you are regarding MK. What does MK offer that provides dependability and demands respect the way the other top-20-ish characters do? He doesn't have a projectile, reflector, or counter, which puts him in a tool-deficient state much like characters like Captain Falcon, which I think people recognize is a legitimate matchup-effecting quality.

For the record I know he has great qualities, I just think this discussion would be enriched with your answer, since you're one of the few who is excited about MK.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

It was a dozen matches, I couldn't tell you. I'm aware of the possible differences of each, but again citing stage choice importance as an element important to countering such braindead safe camp-play is still worrisome. There has to be a more logical solution.


What qualities do you think make him more and less viable as a solomain compared to other swordies/speedsters? What character (between Marth, MK, Shulk, or Ike) do you think reigns supreme as the sword-only archetype?

I'm feeling your unbridled enthusiasm may be a shock to people who aren't under the same impressions you are regarding MK. What does MK offer that provides dependability and demands respect the way the other top-20-ish characters do? I know he has great qualities, I just think this discussion would be enriched with your answer, since you're one of the few who is excited about MK.

Oh yeah I know, I was just curious for no reason lol


Also, did you try Rush down during any of your matches with the villager?

 

[Conda]

Oh yeah I know, I was just curious for no reason lol


Also, did you try Rush down during any of your matches with the villager?

Yup, I'd get my damage in but it'd reset to neutral and he'd set up camp again. Can't get early gimp kills on him so I had to build him to kill percent, giving him enough time to do the same while camping out. The main question, I suppose, is what advice would you give to players to deal with a Villager who is hanging on the ledge with a tree set up on 1 chop, dropping down and up B-ing to regrab ad-nauseum, tossing lloids out, pocketing any projectiles, switching ledges, and using fair when you approach the ledge?

In a tournament, you can respond by not approaching and winning by %, but FG goes to sudden death. So you're forced to approach. It's stalling, which isn't tournament-legal iirc, but it is in For Glory.

 

[Radical Larry]

So, My Smash Corner did a video about a Fox true combo recently, but thing is, it's nothing new (especially for me, I've used it since day one on the 3DS game), but I will say it is quite the viable combo, easily getting your opponent of guard and ending in a sweet resulting SS U-Smash or a regular F-Smash. The downside is yes, opponents can DI and get out of it, but even after that, it would be hard to truly get out of it since the opponent would be at a point of being punished hard by Fox, and in some cases, KO'd by U-Air or a well read U-Smash.

It's nothing new, but it is a viable tactic that isn't considered broken; or as broken as Link's Jab Infinite Combo or Rosalina's Luma Jab Infinite. Fox's Double Tap Rootbeer Jab (that's what I call it, since it's not a true infinite) is another good tactic to sweep your opponents off guard, but also one that can lead to punishes against opponents with unsafe recoveries (which is almost all of the cast). Does it affect his tier placement, well, it would only help him a little bit, probably one slot above.

 

[HeavyLobster]

So I was stuck in an airport post apex about 2-days ago and decided to try to bring together a tier list to fulfill some boredom, we got about half to two thirds through it and I just finished it up. This is assuming apex ruleset, which means that the miis are shafted.

S+:
S-:

A+:
A-:

(ordering less important)
B+:
B-:

(ordering not important)
C:

D:

Diddy is domination. Maybe not in results yet, but in terms of the amount of Diddy Kongs at Apex? It was kinda crazy. The best players were going to get high or knock each other out no matter what (as a post I said earlier, things like reaction speed and skill are more important than character selection), this goes to show this character isn't subverting large skill gaps and many characters seem to be competitive towards the top within the S/A tiers. I rate diddy as just that degree better than Sheik, his vastly dominant neutral + reward game skews match ups heavily in his favour, forward air and down tilt out space just about everyone and everything and we all know about down throw and up throw follow ups. We'll see how things go as time goes on, but there seems to be a small push towards ousting the Monkey in some places. I think the community is praying for Mewtwo to come early. Among other things I feel rage favours diddy heavily, especially more than Sheik and many of his compatriots, the safety gained on shield is ludicrous and we all know about his kill power and combo potential. Two stocks emphasises rage-sweeps and hence this also helps Diddy perform (imo; but I'm not going to vehemently debate it). Customs and more stages may also help against current Diddy.

Oh Sheik, how scary art though. You have the most options in the cast and excessive room to grow. Everything about Sheik executed at a top level is amazing and new things are discovered (and shown) at every event. We have frame data already to tell us what this character can do, and weaknesses are really hard to find with her 4 frame back air and various combos/frame traps for bouncing fish and vanish. The only reason we can see this character not being above Diddy is the consistency of the rewards Diddy can accomplish against the current Sheiks when she can only afford to make 1/5th of the mistakes as Diddy. With what is considered a guaranteed "diddy nerf", Sheik may take the cake in the long run, but IMO it will probably be a good meta, there is room to out play current Sheik with a multitude of characters, something I don't really see in Diddy's case. However, not to deny the reality, but Sheik doesn't lose any match up.

Okay I guess my original pre-US day feels have come back to me with Sonic as third, but I feel the characters in this tier are extremely close. Rosalina is a match up dominatrix much like you'd expect some niche characters but without the weaknesses/exploits required to actually have troubling match ups. Luigi is becoming a very common threat, boasting what could be great match ups with both Sheik and Diddy, people call this character stupid and I'll happily admit he is; the grab game, neutral, competent recovery and general mobility allow Luigi to compete with every character no matter what but we're yet to see if the range and aerial mobility weakness will be exploited successfully in the future. ZSS has everything, love you baby~ She doesn't have an infallible game plan though and mistakes in recovery or in getting the kill can be costly and hard to come back from, but that Up-B though! (pray it won't get nerfed). Pikachu may be out of luck with their best player retiring (FOR NOW, kukuku, you'll be back ESAM) but I've yet to see anyone within the high level competitive player base that disagrees with how strong he is, I would probably be considered underrating Pika with this position, but rereadparagraphopeningsentence; this character may be in trouble in the long run though, with an already complicated Sheik match up looming and Diddy continuing to develop while Pika seemingly stalls although most can agree the strengths are there for him to be a true Diddy threat.
Ness, Yoshi, Olimar, Fox and Facon; practically all characters I believe are capable of dominating but seem significantly harder to be consistent with across all match ups, likely a noticeable weakness limiting them. Ness being less mobile, Yoshi is janky and suffers against shields and strong camping, Olimar has a lot fairer neutral now than in Brawl primarily because he has a much less dominating grab but could still prove ever more potent, Fox struggles without a strong grab game and light weight features for a melee range character, Falcon can be destroyed but destroys everything back and I hope he continues to show us his moves and remain a viable competitive choice (if you're wondering why: Dash grab is godlike).

Characters in B+ feel much like the upper mid tier (or lower high tiers) of Brawl that were Toon Link, Fox, Lucario and co. They make splashes, but they aren't consistent. In reality it's a mid tier but the group comprising that power level has vastly expanded which is pretty amazing. Reliable secondary usage or main usage with usually great local/regional results, competitive in various match ups against high/top tiers for sure. B- has some controversial choices I'm sure, but I feel like most are either tried and tested (and definitely good but not top/high tier) or are given some current benefit of the doubt (the Links, Jiggs). Greninja is also in a gray area where I'm not entirely sure yet.

C is what I would describe as the extra niche tier. I don't doubt that everyone of these characters are capable of doing well in tournaments in specific match ups. I feel however a lot of their abilities are weakened by strong camping playstyles or in finding the kill which no matter how "hype" the results or matches are that we see them win it, I tend to not rate them as consistently able to achieve this at all. Like I mentioned in B, the power level of this grouping feels much closer to what mid tiers were like in Brawl, which to me is quite crazy how small it really is.

I'm just going to go and say that there is some cop outs here in my mind, characters which I feel are just too underrated/seen by some to really place any higher although I don't really feel they're worthless or unviable. Mii fighters are carrying under the assumption of 1111 and I really don't feel they are able to compete within that environment. I'd otherwise be confident in stating that all these characters deserve to be buffed (the exception being miis/palutena) without there being too much worry of a new overwhelming force. In some ways, I could've done C+ and have had D as C- but I do feel like the distinction is there that didn't feel as pronounced in my S/A/B. If it makes you feel that much better you could consider it as such, I wouldn't be adamant against it.


Anyway among other things, perhaps it's time to look into doing a few "official" steps towards a tier list, if anything the prelude to that would be proper character discussions (like early Brawl) for every character pushed at a hyper pace and then followed by some sort of "THING". I'm all ears for any ideas/insight on the whole prelude chapter, how THINGs go can be variously different.

This is a really good tier list. I am curious about your thoughts on Bowser Jr, who doesn't seem all that bad to me and looks like a character with untapped potential.

 

[warionumbah2]

Dtilting someone near the ledge will force them go into their free fall animation, so you basically got a free stage spike with bair so long as they miss the tech.

Outside of sm4sh MK plays similar to melee fox but if I were compare him to anyone in sm4sh it would be falcon. He pretty much trades his range, damage per hit on normals for a recovery that bypasses edge guard attempts, disjointed hitboxes and a smaller hurtbox.

I can think of 4 kill set ups on the spot. Mk has better options out of dash than marth and overall superior ground game,better off stage game and recovery than ike as well as better ground mobility and faster ground moves than Shulk. Frame 3 dtilt that causes tripping...bruh.

Tall characters will be forced to get their shield poked by mach tornado, he sharks extremely well on BF with Utilt, Uair and mach tornado. Safe f-smash that kills below 100% with a sweet spot killing sooner approximately 10% sooner. His MU against the top is far better than the other swordsman especially Marth. If Sonic becomes popular or more popular then i don't see how anyone can solo main him but he's one of if not the best sword user in the game. MK can score good strings against Diddy since he falls pretty fast and there's not much he can do to escape it so long as the MK is on point with his moves. If you can't successfully follow up on his DA and Down throw why use him?

His weaknesses are his short range and weight. He's got frame traps,disjointed hitboxes,small hurtbox,9th dash in the game,6 jumps,insane recovery,safe f-smash,somewhat safe dash attack,good dash grab,kill setups,enough speed to zonebreak and can fool people who DI down throw by using forward throw which comes out too fast for people to react to. His damage per hit isn't that much of a problem when he has a special that does 23% fresh.

Down throw --> Dash --> Opponent airdodges out of fear --> Nado = 29-30%

 

[Smog Frog]

why is zard so low on that list? didnt we all agree recently that zard is one of the best heavies?

 

[Twizman]

If there is a patch I would like to see the following receive buffs to up them into A tier: Metaknight, Fox, Pacman (grab), Olimar. C'mon Nintendo make this crazy balanced I wanna see a huge variety at the top! :D

If you could buff any character to make them more viable competitively who would it be? : )

 

[Nobie]

I keep hearing about how Dedede has these very polarized matchups, but which ones does he actually win? Is there any consensus on this sort of thing?

 

[HeavyLobster]

I keep hearing about how Dedede has these very polarized matchups, but which ones does he actually win? Is there any consensus on this sort of thing?

D3 generally does well against fellow heavies, Mac, and swords. He also clobbahs dat dere Kirbeh pretty well.

 

[Thinkaman]

This is a really good tier list. I am curious about your thoughts on Bowser Jr, who doesn't seem all that bad to me and looks like a character with untapped potential.

Shaya's placement of Bowser Jr. gave me pause as well. I'm also not sure that default Brawler and Palutena are QUITE that low. And yeah, I'd bump up Charizard a bit.

 

[Smog Frog]

yoshi has damage racking and kill setups as numerous as sheik, just want to throw that out there

i am ready to be flamed

 

[Nobie]

D3 generally does well against fellow heavies, Mac, and swords. He also clobbahs dat dere Kirbeh pretty well.

Ah, I did recall just now that Dedede is an especially bad matchup for Meta Knight (aka Kirby with a Sword).

 

[hey_there]

Yup, I'd get my damage in but it'd reset to neutral and he'd set up camp again. Can't get early gimp kills on him so I had to build him to kill percent, giving him enough time to do the same while camping out. The main question, I suppose, is what advice would you give to players to deal with a Villager who is hanging on the ledge with a tree set up on 1 chop, dropping down and up B-ing to regrab ad-nauseum, tossing lloids out, pocketing any projectiles, switching ledges, and using fair when you approach the ledge?

In a tournament, you can respond by not approaching and winning by %, but FG goes to sudden death. So you're forced to approach. It's stalling, which isn't tournament-legal iirc, but it is in For Glory.

Having come across the same type of Villager a lot on For Glory, I feel your pain. I think the biggest issue you may be overlooking is that For Glory always has some slight input lag. For the same reason that scrubs can spam rolling on For Glory and see success because they're harder to punish on reaction due to the slight input lag, Villager can put up a brick wall online and it will be superficially hard to get past when it's reinforced by lag, however slight. Offline Villager is not the same as Online Villager.

My thought process when I see a ledge camper Villager is kill the tree/wait until it disappears, duck high fairs/lloids, powershield low fairs, and don't be afraid to land an aerial off stage, but get back to the main platform ASAP. If you get a stock lead, stop approaching and stay center stage just out of fair/bair range. Campy matches suck, and as a Luigi main, Villager has forced me to start picking up a secondary just to deal with him/her.

 

[Kofu]

Campy matches suck, and as a Luigi main, Villager has forced me to start picking up a secondary just to deal with him/her.

I am the mayor here, and I don't want any men in green occupying my town!

Seriously, though, I agree: campy matches suck and Villager can be one of the main offenders. I think it's important to know your options for hitting people grabbing the ledge in this game, not only to combat ledge camping but also to nail recoveries in general.

 

[Antonykun]

Yes please
Only when you have all the air speed in the world but float as if it's air transformation on PS2, is when you wish you had your fast fall speed back.
Honestly.

Melee puff is disappointed in you.

 

[FullMoon]

So I was stuck in an airport post apex about 2-days ago and decided to try to bring together a tier list to fulfill some boredom, we got about half to two thirds through it and I just finished it up. This is assuming apex ruleset, which means that the miis are shafted.

S+:
S-:

A+:
A-:

(ordering less important)
B+:
B-:

(ordering not important)
C:

D:

Diddy is domination. Maybe not in results yet, but in terms of the amount of Diddy Kongs at Apex? It was kinda crazy. The best players were going to get high or knock each other out no matter what (as a post I said earlier, things like reaction speed and skill are more important than character selection), this goes to show this character isn't subverting large skill gaps and many characters seem to be competitive towards the top within the S/A tiers. I rate diddy as just that degree better than Sheik, his vastly dominant neutral + reward game skews match ups heavily in his favour, forward air and down tilt out space just about everyone and everything and we all know about down throw and up throw follow ups. We'll see how things go as time goes on, but there seems to be a small push towards ousting the Monkey in some places. I think the community is praying for Mewtwo to come early. Among other things I feel rage favours diddy heavily, especially more than Sheik and many of his compatriots, the safety gained on shield is ludicrous and we all know about his kill power and combo potential. Two stocks emphasises rage-sweeps and hence this also helps Diddy perform (imo; but I'm not going to vehemently debate it). Customs and more stages may also help against current Diddy.

Oh Sheik, how scary art though. You have the most options in the cast and excessive room to grow. Everything about Sheik executed at a top level is amazing and new things are discovered (and shown) at every event. We have frame data already to tell us what this character can do, and weaknesses are really hard to find with her 4 frame back air and various combos/frame traps for bouncing fish and vanish. The only reason we can see this character not being above Diddy is the consistency of the rewards Diddy can accomplish against the current Sheiks when she can only afford to make 1/5th of the mistakes as Diddy. With what is considered a guaranteed "diddy nerf", Sheik may take the cake in the long run, but IMO it will probably be a good meta, there is room to out play current Sheik with a multitude of characters, something I don't really see in Diddy's case. However, not to deny the reality, but Sheik doesn't lose any match up.

Okay I guess my original pre-US day feels have come back to me with Sonic as third, but I feel the characters in this tier are extremely close. Rosalina is a match up dominatrix much like you'd expect some niche characters but without the weaknesses/exploits required to actually have troubling match ups. Luigi is becoming a very common threat, boasting what could be great match ups with both Sheik and Diddy, people call this character stupid and I'll happily admit he is; the grab game, neutral, competent recovery and general mobility allow Luigi to compete with every character no matter what but we're yet to see if the range and aerial mobility weakness will be exploited successfully in the future. ZSS has everything, love you baby~ She doesn't have an infallible game plan though and mistakes in recovery or in getting the kill can be costly and hard to come back from, but that Up-B though! (pray it won't get nerfed). Pikachu may be out of luck with their best player retiring (FOR NOW, kukuku, you'll be back ESAM) but I've yet to see anyone within the high level competitive player base that disagrees with how strong he is, I would probably be considered underrating Pika with this position, but rereadparagraphopeningsentence; this character may be in trouble in the long run though, with an already complicated Sheik match up looming and Diddy continuing to develop while Pika seemingly stalls although most can agree the strengths are there for him to be a true Diddy threat.
Ness, Yoshi, Olimar, Fox and Facon; practically all characters I believe are capable of dominating but seem significantly harder to be consistent with across all match ups, likely a noticeable weakness limiting them. Ness being less mobile, Yoshi is janky and suffers against shields and strong camping, Olimar has a lot fairer neutral now than in Brawl primarily because he has a much less dominating grab but could still prove ever more potent, Fox struggles without a strong grab game and light weight features for a melee range character, Falcon can be destroyed but destroys everything back and I hope he continues to show us his moves and remain a viable competitive choice (if you're wondering why: Dash grab is godlike).

Characters in B+ feel much like the upper mid tier (or lower high tiers) of Brawl that were Toon Link, Fox, Lucario and co. They make splashes, but they aren't consistent. In reality it's a mid tier but the group comprising that power level has vastly expanded which is pretty amazing. Reliable secondary usage or main usage with usually great local/regional results, competitive in various match ups against high/top tiers for sure. B- has some controversial choices I'm sure, but I feel like most are either tried and tested (and definitely good but not top/high tier) or are given some current benefit of the doubt (the Links, Jiggs). Greninja is also in a gray area where I'm not entirely sure yet.

C is what I would describe as the extra niche tier. I don't doubt that everyone of these characters are capable of doing well in tournaments in specific match ups. I feel however a lot of their abilities are weakened by strong camping playstyles or in finding the kill which no matter how "hype" the results or matches are that we see them win it, I tend to not rate them as consistently able to achieve this at all. Like I mentioned in B, the power level of this grouping feels much closer to what mid tiers were like in Brawl, which to me is quite crazy how small it really is.

I'm just going to go and say that there is some cop outs here in my mind, characters which I feel are just too underrated/seen by some to really place any higher although I don't really feel they're worthless or unviable. Mii fighters are carrying under the assumption of 1111 and I really don't feel they are able to compete within that environment. I'd otherwise be confident in stating that all these characters deserve to be buffed (the exception being miis/palutena) without there being too much worry of a new overwhelming force. In some ways, I could've done C+ and have had D as C- but I do feel like the distinction is there that didn't feel as pronounced in my S/A/B. If it makes you feel that much better you could consider it as such, I wouldn't be adamant against it.


Anyway among other things, perhaps it's time to look into doing a few "official" steps towards a tier list, if anything the prelude to that would be proper character discussions (like early Brawl) for every character pushed at a hyper pace and then followed by some sort of "THING". I'm all ears for any ideas/insight on the whole prelude chapter, how THINGs go can be variously different.

I think this is a pretty good tier list. Though I think Greninja and Olimar should be in B+. Bowser Jr should be in C and Charizard could also be in B-. Those are just minor nitpicks though.

I'm a bit confused on Shulk though. His Smashes are all laggy even if they have a lot of reach and his recovery is very gimpable. I understand that the arts allow him to adapt to situations, but that still doesn't change the fact that his Smashes are all laggy which makes him very easy to punish, Air Slash doesn't immediatelly grab the ledge which could be a problem for him as well. His F-Air a N-Air are really good though, but I don't it really makes up for the rest.

Buster and Smash help him deal damage and kill, respectively, but they also help the opponent damage and kill him faster, so using those arts is a bit of a gamble since it really can go both ways. Jump and Speed are very good, yes, though Speed suffers a bit with Shulk's laggy smashes. Jump helps him recover better though, which is great, I don't know what drawbacks those two arts have though. Shield is... I don't know.

As far as his other specials go, Vision is an amazing counter, Backslash is pretty bad unless you get good reads and Air Slash is good for killing I think, but as a recovery it's not that good.

So I think Shulk should be in B-. He's a very adaptable character with the Monado Arts, but at the same time it's not too hard to use them against him, I feel.

Feel free to correct me though. I don't know much about him.

 

[Thinkaman]

Post-Apex update of my outlook:

My List: (1v1, no customs, ordered within each level)








My List: (1v1, customs, ordered within each level--each level relative to the above)








Obviously, some characters benefit more from customs (like Palutena and Ganondorf) than others who either do not depend on specials (Diddy, Jigglypuff), have superior defaults (Sheik, Ness), or suffer from the overall environment shift (Rosalina.) However looking at how it affects everyone, while clearly some characters move down on the tier list as characters with the best customs pass them on the way up, no one is bumped down an entire tier.

Moves up 4 tiers relative to a no-customs list:
Moves up 2 tiers relative to a no-customs list:
Moves up 1 tiers relative to a no-customs list:


Things I debated on:
Yeah, I still think is (trivially) better than .
I'm rebuilding confidence in as a true top character, but still believe that she has a lot more trouble acting like a god when all the peasants get anti-Luma customs.
has more problems than /, but her strength is undeniable. She just has too many tools that make beating low-tier peasants too easy. Real Talk: ZSS Up-B might be the game's stupidest move.
I'm not 100% sure that moves up to the highest level with the handful of small advantages his customs can grant. I never really bought that he was top-3 in the meta as we knew it, but let's not start underrating him (or ZSS) because of Apex.
Speaking of ! He might not have performed well at the very top, but Apex clearly showed us that he's really, really good. Custom fireballs really round out his worst matchups.
is still good, to the surprise of no one. I just want to emphasize this, since he didn't appear at Apex.
So is pretty good it turns out! We had had a building amount of proof for some time, but 2nd at Apex is as resolute as anyone could ask for. I don't at all think he's a top tier--in fact without the option for Tackle Pikmin I think he (barely) can't even crack the 2nd highest tier. But good matchups against certain top characters make it impossible to ignore him.
We've all said quite a lot about . He did the LoL thing, where he got nerfed and was forgotten, but is still a fine, top-50% character.
My biggest change was moving down significantly . A lot of the talk here has matched my own experience: As people get better at both dealing with his limited options and killing in general, he has become way less intimidating. He still has some really crazy custom options though.
is a really, really good character but has some non-trivial limitations. I think is all around a superior heavyweight, but 'zard has unique options that let him deal with a lot of tough matchups. While Dragon Rush is still CRAZY good and helps him immensely, Flare Blitz is proving to be more and more useful everyday, especially as a key trump card in certain matchups. Meanwhile, it turns out the f1 super armor on Rock Hurl is a crucial anti-juggle tool that saves his neck in many of his worst matchups.
Yeah, is good. In my experience heavyweights despise him, and he very well might be Little Mac's single worst matchup. ( is also a nightmare imo) Jury is still out on his customs, or if he really deserves to be bumped to that center tier. (Currently I am leaning towards no, with customs--specifically Dreadnado--bumping him over the edge.)
I'm surprised at the lack of faith recently in ; he just seems like a transparently solid character. I feel like the amount of damage he does for landing reasonable hits single-handedly prohibits him from being in the bottom third of the cast. And of course, his customs are fantastic! Grounding Dash has f1 armor and combos into up-b 1 for 31% total.
is still a decent character, and still a top-3 beneficiary from customs.
surprised us all at Apex; I have more faith him his default moveset now, but I still think he's a bottom-third character. MVD had to work twice as hard as his opponents, and it showed. What's more, if players get used to default can traps and learn to work around DHD's EXTREMELY limited kill options, he has nowhere to go but down. The good news is, Zigzag Shot exists and makes the character twice as good, particularly at high level play. You can work around the normal can in many situations. You cannot work around the zigzag can short of hitting it away.
I don't buy the negative nancy train. Even with her crappy default specials, she is not a bottom 5 character. There's just no way. All of her gimmicks make her just too flexible, and her grab reward + workable KO potential keeps an otherwise lackluster skeleton from actually being a bad character. Yes, her d-tilt sucks. Diddy's jab sucks, so hopefully Palutena mains can copy their innovative solution of not using that move. Of course, that might not be a fair comparison since Diddy has crazy true combos out of d-throw, but... Oh wait.
Let it be forever known that anyone who says is the worst character in the game is wrong. Just totally, absolutely wrong. Everyone wants to reduce Little Mac to this simplistic, binary character with a flawed design:

• He can never recover? Wrong, he has a limited selection of options that still get the job done, while having the best on-stage edge-guarding in the game himself.
• He can only play on FD? Wrong, he sometimes even prefers platforms, since juggles--not just edge-guarding--is his true weakness. Stage transitions are generous to him. BF isn't a third as bad for him as people think (he can FH between platforms perfectly), while Smashville actually is and he should strike it.
• He has no air game? Wrong, like his recovery, he has limited options that get the job done. Nair, all four of his specials, and buffered KO Punch all empower an aerial Little Mac to transition back to the ground.

Real Talk: If we had double reaction speed, LM would skyrocket up the list. (To be fair, Diddy and Sheik would also have their position at the top cemented.)
's customs are also really important to him--I totally overlooked them in the game's early days. It's funny--I figured his up-b options would be important and the rest--especially the side-b ones--a joke. Turns out default up-b is absolutely pivotal, and his side-b options are what let him crucially tailor his approach and recovery mixups on a matchup basis.
The rest of my low tier is . Man, are these REALLY the worst characters in this game? This seems impossible.
's disjoint and KO potential demand respect; the idea that even this "nerfed" Marth could be "bad" is asinine. I feel very similarly about for his respective strengths. (The main difference is, Falco gets Void Reflector) is worse, but a tier worse? I just can't buy it. Lucina gets ZERO respect for her advantages around her, and many seem to live in a fantasy world where all attacks are perfectly space tippers.
I think has some really bad matchups rooted in her range issues, but has a solid harassment game and otherwise has no crippling flaws. Jumbo Hoop gives her insane shield pressure, ranged OoS threat, and a great damage source--it's not a top move in the game, but it is exactly what the doctor ordered for her. Weighted Header is also a really potent pressure tool in a lot of matchups when rapidly auto-cancelled. Volatile Breathing is a really curious solution for certain juggle-heavy matchup like Mario--the true purpose of the move is f1 super armor on startup, so you can use it like a second air-dodge that can chain immediately into your normal one.
is a worse , but there's a lot worse things you could be. Doc up-b is what it is: a great move, and nothing more. People can deal with it, but it will always be good. I do think that customs help him more than Mario, in spite of Pills and Up-B being better to begin with. This is because I think default Fireballs and up-b are already Mario's best options in most cases. The few matchups Mario WOULD prefer fast Fireballs, it will be even more important for Doc to be able to take fast pills because of Doc's inferior mobility. Finally, I can't help but assume the option of down-b 2 is highly valuable to Doc in lots of matchups--certainty more so than to Luigi.
feels like a solid mid-tier in many matchups, and an awful character in others. He's a great character crippled by poor mobility and a lack of the anti-juggle options most other heavies have. I feel uncomfortable putting him as bottom 5, but who the hell else will I put?
Ditto for . I need to see way more of her as well.
Okay, let's finally talk about . I am currently confident she is the worst 1v1 character in the game. (Though not at all bad in 2v2, and maybe even top 5 in 4v4. Like, have you seen her played in 4v4? She really is that crazy.) But how much worse? It's hard to quantify.
is in many ways like Brawl Ganondorf, in that her bad-ness is offset by the potential to at any point convert normally small mistakes into absurd advantages. Farore's Wind can be done OoS, and is one DI-read away from killing anyone at like 50%. SH dair auto-cancels, does 15%, and links to usmash or Farore's if they don't tech--which can be fairly expected when you are using this as a roll punish. Bair and fair are still the strongest two aerials in the entire game, and hit on f6/f9 respectively. Her uair is one of the strongest vertical killers in the game. Phantom is actually one of the game's highest damage Shield-Break punishers, for what that is worth.
The difference between and Brawl Ganon though, is several bits of good news. She has fast melee options, a long range (but slow) grab, an invincible reflector, and one of the best recoveries in the game. I totally buy that she is the worst character, but hell if this isn't a pretty good worst character.
's customs intrigue me, specifically Din's Blaze and the Phantoms. They do not seem obviously useful or not; I'm not confident that they could bump her up. The main factor is Din's Blaze as an edge-guard tool, which I (and I think just about everyone) initially overlooked. The full utility of the Phantoms also remains to be seen. For now, I'm going to err on the side of leaving her down there.

Thoughts?

 

[Aunt Jemima]

With custom moves, Kirby moved DOWN? I'm terribly confused by this. I'd say that Kirby is around the top 5 or so that benefits from custom moves.

 

[Thinkaman]

yoshi has damage racking and kill setups as numerous as sheik, just want to throw that out there

The difference is that Sheik's harassment, damage-racking, and edge-guarding tools apply more readily to more matchups such that it easily outmatches the benefit Yoshi has at killing sooner in many situations.

Trust me, I do think Yoshi is a really, really good character though, and probably the most "underrated" top-10 character in the discussion currently.

With custom moves, Kirby moved DOWN? I'm terribly confused by this. I'd say that Kirby is around the top 5 or so that benefits from custom moves.

Look at who Kirby is surrounded by on each side:



Barring DK and Villager, those are possibly the top 10 characters in terms of benefiting from customs.

Kirby does benefit, but not to the degree of THOSE characters, who all have major flaws addressed.

I'm curious as to how you'd evaluate Kirby's benefit from customs as top-5.

 

[Radical Larry]

Again, looks like people really sleep on Link in the tier lists, and rate him a low tier. He's not even that bad, he's a very viable character that deserves at least, at lowest, upper-mid tier. There's no reason for him to be a low tier character whatsoever. Sure, there aren't any tournament results for him, but that's because a lot of people are still sleeping on him.

 

[Locke 06]

Characters "with potential" that haven't been explored yet, mostly mentions of Bowser Jr. And maybe Shulk, shouldn't be any higher than how they're being played and what we know about them right now. Also, I generally find "potential" to be overrated. Peach, for example, has been stated to be awesome when someone masters her float. I don't disagree, but, with that in mind, what does her MU spread look like? Just a reminder, as tools should define MU's which should define the place on a tier list.

While each character board is biased to different degrees, most of them have some sort of matchup thread and tourney thread that should be able to help.

I'll probably post some thoughts on the notable tier lists, but later. Reserved's post on Kirby's customs (upper cutter and jumping inhale/ice breath) was the most notable thing I saw. Fully agree that Kirby gains a ton from customs and makes certain MU's much better.

 

[Steam]

Post-Apex update of my outlook:
My biggest change was moving down significantly . A lot of the talk here has matched my own experience: As people get better at both dealing with his limited options and killing in general, he has become way less intimidating. He still has some really crazy custom options though.

I couldn't really disagree more here. Most top lucarios agree that his optimal custom set is still 1-1-1-1 with a different aurasphere sometimes in very specific matchups or doubles. He also has great kill setups out of aurasphere and can pull many of his old brawl tricks to get sideB grabs on you. In brawl he was a character with numerous decent options, and in this game he's that and better. He's highly versatile in this game and almost always sees high reward when he gets a hit. Also every time I see lucario on the same tier as DK I get mad. I think luc will end up surging up peoples' lists once we see a trela 2.0 using him. Currently the only old top player using Lucario (junebug) apparently doesn't own/practice the game and afaik mainly plays P:M. I think we have a few people getting there but sadly I went out like a buster at apex so I couldn't show off the tech

why is everyone rating peach so high <_>

 

[Thinkaman]

I couldn't really disagree more here. Most top lucarios agree that his optimal custom set is still 1-1-1-1 with a different aurasphere sometimes in very specific matchups or doubles.

Sorry, I realize that "crazy" might have implied "superior", "broken", or even "good". It's more like Mega Man: I actually like his 1111 setup, but think his other options are unusually different and interesting. Lucario is one the few characters I would actually counterpick customs on--in particular aura sphere options like you said.

Thoguh re: Lucario in general, note that I'm still rating Lucario higher than many here, including Dabuz. Don't shoot the messenger!

why is everyone rating peach so high <_>

Peach is pretty good! Flexible options, good kill power; I'd be surprised she isn't being used more, but she's quirky and hard to pick up on a whim.

 

[Kofu]

My impression of Lucario is that he has significant range issues for a supposed top tier, and that characters who don't have to respect his main forms of controlling space (Aura Sphere and Force Palm) will naturally give him a hard time. I don't think he's a bad character but the only thing about him that really stands out IMO is Aura, which means he's quite reliant on it. If he was designed with less reliance on that mechanic and had better basic stats, he'd feel more solid as a character in my eyes.

 

[FullMoon]

I'm not really sure of where to place Lucario. Aura is really powerful and Aura Sphere is a great projectile, but is moves have quite a bit of start-up and are lacking in range. I thought he wasn't going to be very good, but when I got completely wrecked once while playing against one (in fact I believe it was @ Steam or at least someone with the same nickname) I'm not really sure of what to think of him.

 

[hey_there]

Speaking of ! He might not have performed well at the very top, but Apex clearly showed us that he's really, really good. Custom fireballs really round out his worst matchups.

What do you believe are Luigi's worst match ups and how do his custom fireballs help? I'll agree that Iceballs really help in the Yoshi match up, but from my personal play with Luigi in customs on, none of his fireballs seem to do much for his worst match up (Villager) or other match ups he's disadvantaged in (Duck Hunt, Fast Fireball Mario, Mega Man, Sanic[imo]). Bouncing Fireball is quicker and longer ranged, but the increased cool down means that Luigi isn't really accomplishing much with it in these match ups.

On the note of ice projectiles, I tried out Ice Slasher with Mega Man again and it surprised me with how good it is. I think it's really being overlooked by Mega Mains. Sheik's penetrating needles destroy shields, and let her put on immense pressure between shield poking and the threat of a broken shield. And I'm surprised default PKT is considered better than Lasting PKT on Ness. It just seems completely better in almost every way possible. Easier to control, racks up huge % in no time, better for recovery. It even goes through SV/T&C balloons =).

 

[Saturn_]

why is everyone rating peach so high <_>

She has amongst the best recovery in the game, which didn't surprise me, and Up-B kills, which did surprise me.

 

[Nobie]

Post-Apex update of my outlook:
Okay, let's finally talk about . I am currently confident she is the worst 1v1 character in the game. (Though not at all bad in 2v2, and maybe even top 5 in 4v4. Like, have you seen her played in 4v4? She really is that crazy.) But how much worse? It's hard to quantify.
is in many ways like Brawl Ganondorf, in that her bad-ness is offset by the potential to at any point convert normally small mistakes into absurd advantages. Farore's Wind can be done OoS, and is one DI-read away from killing anyone at like 50%. SH dair auto-cancels, does 15%, and links to usmash or Farore's if they don't tech--which can be fairly expected when you are using this as a roll punish. Bair and fair are still the strongest two aerials in the entire game, and hit on f6/f9 respectively. Her uair is one of the strongest vertical killers in the game. Phantom is actually one of the game's highest damage Shield-Break punishers, for what that is worth.
The difference between and Brawl Ganon though, is several bits of good news. She has fast melee options, a long range (but slow) grab, an invincible reflector, and one of the best recoveries in the game. I totally buy that she is the worst character, but hell if this isn't a pretty good worst character.
's customs intrigue me, specifically Din's Blaze and the Phantoms. They do not seem obviously useful or not; I'm not confident that they could bump her up. The main factor is Din's Blaze as an edge-guard tool, which I (and I think just about everyone) initially overlooked. The full utility of the Phantoms also remains to be seen. For now, I'm going to err on the side of leaving her down there.

Thoughts?

I think Smash 4 Zelda's recovery is such an important factor in dictating her effectiveness. She's not only extremely difficult to edge guard, but the fact that her recovery is also part of her punish game, which can then lead into a KO, can really dictate her matches and even instill a bit of fear into her opponents. A few characters aren't that bothered by being off-stage, like G&W, Villager, Meta Knight, and Wii Fit Trainer, but Zelda just by being out there forces you to play super carefully or eat Farore's Wind. I know shields are great and all in this game, but whenever I fight Zelda I feel like half the match is me in shield trying not to get caught off-guard.

I don't know who she would beat to move up the tier list, but I feel like any character that relies heavily on gimps is either at a disadvantage or at the very least has to drastically alter their normal game plan.

 

[DavemanCozy]

She has amongst the best recovery in the game, which didn't surprise me, and Up-B kills, which did surprise me.

It's not just that, F-air, N-air, fsmash, U-air, B-air, pretty much a lot of her moveset can KO. Her Side-B actually hits shields now instead of going right through them, which makes the move infinitely better to apply pressure with and threaten from a distance. Her running speed on the ground is significantly better (still slow in comparison to the rest of the cast), and she can space her aerials precisely thanks to her float letting her weave in and out.

Her recovery is great, but I wouldn't call it among the best. Yes it covers great distance, but the thing with Peach's recovery is that it involves commitment.
She covers great distance with her double jump (now buffed from Brawl), float, and Up-B, but she is also forced to commit with her float and Up-B. In other words: you can only float or airdodge, you can't do both at the same time. Once you use the float, you've lost it until you land again. The umbrella gives her great distance when recovering, but it also doesn't let her airdodge nor toss out aerials to protect herself while she gracefully falls back.
Good Peach players obviously find ways past this, which requires good spacing and maneuvering.

She's still really good though. I'm happy to see her back as a formidable character (like actually, screw her Brawl double jump).

 

[Thinkaman]

I just did some looking to Kirby's customs in more detail and have some questions for @ Aunt Jemima .

I didn't realize Upper Cutter was (f5) invincible. That's actually pretty nice, more of a recovery improvement than I thought.

I don't understand the focus you gave on using FH Hammer Bash to gain enough height to survive a (failed) Meteor Stone. You can do the same thing with a single DJ, which is much faster. It's not like Kirby needs to preserve his DJs in that situation.

Meteor Stone is nice, but I don't ultimately see it as a huge improvement. It's a lot of trouble, harder to land, and tbqh normal Stone has crazy KO power anyway--enough to KO most off-stage opponents. I'd probably use Burying Stone in most matchups, since it's just so much more useable.

What I suspect the biggest difference of opinion is, is the value of Kirby's neutral-b options. They seem pretty good--frankly strictly superior, but not a huge upgrade? I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on these options specifically.

 

[Steam]

I'm not really sure of where to place Lucario. Aura is really powerful and Aura Sphere is a great projectile, but is moves have quite a bit of start-up and are lacking in range. I thought he wasn't going to be very good, but when I got completely wrecked once while playing against one (in fact I believe it was @ Steam or at least someone with the same nickname) I'm not really sure of what to think of him.

That's the thing though, Lucario's weakness is that he lacks in super strong tools, but he has many workable options and many unique ways to control his movement (down B approaches through projectiles, wavebounce aurasphere approach, dair stalling still exists) that let him get in on people and get the big punishes/juggles. And really due to what he does to shields, he forces you to play aggressive and actively space him out. and God help you if you get scared against lucario and sit in shield too much or he reads a single dodge out of you.

 

[FullMoon]

I see. I would need to have more practice against good Lucario in order to really understand how he works and form an opinion on him since I rarely see anyone even play him. He does look very promising though.

 

[Thinkaman]

What do you believe are Luigi's worst match ups and how do his custom fireballs help? I'll agree that Iceballs really help in the Yoshi match up, but from my personal play with Luigi in customs on, none of his fireballs seem to do much for his worst match up (Villager) or other match ups he's disadvantaged in (Duck Hunt, Fast Fireball Mario, Mega Man, Sanic[imo]). Bouncing Fireball is quicker and longer ranged, but the increased cool down means that Luigi isn't really accomplishing much with it in these match ups.

Luigi's problem has been and always will be matchups where he is forced to approach (and can't). Fireball is the closest thing he has to a solid, robust approach tool, so he struggles where the normal fireball isn't enough for whatever reason. I always assumed Luigi had an issue in the Yoshi, ZSS, and Pikachu matchups, and that different fireballs would help him there. Villager it obviously won't make a difference.

That said, I'm obviously no Luigi expert, and I'll be the first to admit it.

On the note of ice projectiles, I tried out Ice Slasher with Mega Man again and it surprised me with how good it is. I think it's really being overlooked by Mega Mains. Sheik's penetrating needles destroy shields, and let her put on immense pressure between shield poking and the threat of a broken shield. And I'm surprised default PKT is considered better than Lasting PKT on Ness. It just seems completely better in almost every way possible. Easier to control, racks up huge % in no time, better for recovery. It even goes through SV/T&C balloons =).

Ice Slasher is pretty decent, but I think Crash Bomber is pretty decent too. (Certainly underrated) Overall, I think DB fits more into MM's toolkit and game plan more?

Sheik's Needles 2 are really big threat, I'm a big fan. But the significantly lower damage and range takes away a lot of the harassment supremacy that makes the defaults so unfair.

Default PKT is an insanely good move. The lasting one is slower, much less rewarding on hit, and actually a more vulnerable recovery. I've played around with it quite a bit, and it's definitely not worth it. (Unlike the other characters, here, I won a tourney with Ness on Monday. )

 

[Ulevo]

I'm not really sure of where to place Lucario. Aura is really powerful and Aura Sphere is a great projectile, but is moves have quite a bit of start-up and are lacking in range. I thought he wasn't going to be very good, but when I got completely wrecked once while playing against one (in fact I believe it was @ Steam or at least someone with the same nickname) I'm not really sure of what to think of him.

Lucario's moves are generally pretty fast. Nair, Fair, Dtilt, Jab all come out quickly and have good recovery, while dash attack can cross up. The moves that aren't so fast, like AS or FP, trade speed for range and power. He has good approach mix ups with AS, BRAS, FP is useful at higher % depending on the match up, and his grab game is pretty solid. Couple that with his aerial speed, and you have a pretty solid character in neutral. His edge guards are also really good, and his counter commands a lot of respect, even shutting down certain projectile options.

I feel Lucario is misunderstood. A lot of people have the consensus that he's a bad character at 0% and a broken character at 150%, but this isn't really the case.

 

[Locke 06]

On the note of ice projectiles, I tried out Ice Slasher with Mega Man again and it surprised me with how good it is. I think it's really being overlooked by Mega Mains.

Umm... I don't think so. 4% with little direct follow up potential. More laggy than crash bomber and no kill power when compared to danger wrap. Works well against those who suffer in the air, but decreased range, speed, and startup/cooldown really hurt its utility.

I love the move, and use a lot more than most Mega Mans that I know of, but it takes a lot to get used to the increased lag on his side-B customs and crash bomber is very good. What Ice Slasher does is fill a defensive hole in Mega Man's horizontal zoning game by allowing him to take stage control with a projectile. As a defensive Mega Man player, I use it a lot, but I don't think it's a great move (unlike Skull Barrier which is one of the more interesting reflectors in the game... even though Leaf Shield is also very good). I probably use Ice Slasher 35% of the time I play with customs.

@ Thinkaman - I believe it depends on how you play MM. Danger Wrap gives him a semi-anti air that KO's but has terrible horizontal range. Off stage, Danger Wrap is really good to deter people from edge guarding and it has other applications that I admittedly know little about. I dislike Danger Wrap since I focus my game on horizontal zoning, but I respect those that use it. I think he already anti-airs pretty well with disjointed lingering usmash, SH pellets, Uair, disjointed FAir/BAir, with the occasional utilt anti-air.


If the meta is rushdown, the anti-meta is poor approaches because the top characters are going to approach you anyway, Rosalina and Mega Man are the anti-anti-meta.

If your character can't deal with this, you're in for a long game against Mega Man.

 

[hey_there]

Luigi's problem has been and always will be matchups where he is forced to approach (and can't). Fireball is the closest thing he has to a solid, robust approach tool, so he struggles where the normal fireball isn't enough for whatever reason. I always assumed Luigi had an issue in the Yoshi, ZSS, and Pikachu matchups, and that different fireballs would help him there.

Iceballs are a boon against Yoshi. Default fireballs do fine against ZSS and the match up feels pretty close to even, but Iceballs are good against her too. I imagine Iceballs help against Pika, but I haven't played any good Pika mains ever, so I can't comment on that match up at all. Villager is a jerk.

Lasting PKT seems better to me, but I trust you know better than me on Ness, especially if you took a tournament with him =P.

Umm... I don't think so.

I just read your link on Ice Slasher+Skull Barrier. Great stuff! I hadn't seen anything posted positively about it which is why I brought it up, but you've already covered it much better than I ever could.