Character Competitive Impressions

[Ffamran]

Zelda is certainly not mid tier.

Low tier easy.

Also...combos? What?

She has this: http://youtu.be/95h9SQwRK04.

Marth has this: http://youtu.be/fmlQDmck4VE.

Robin has this: http://youtu.be/_ymMT0dUfzk.

And Kirby has this: http://youtu.be/g2z09zf-xA4.

They're all from a user named Muramishi. I don't remember if this user was part of Shoryuken.com or not. Someone said he should post these at Shoryuken or something in the Falco combo exhibition.

 

[Emblem Lord]

This is purely contingent upon the opponents reaction time. But still Robin would be at a few frames of disadvantage depending on how the attack was avoided and which attack was used.

Also Sheik doesnt have to dodge a thunder.

She can just duck and dash in. Only Thoron would hit her.

Zelda stuff - Several things you listed are not 100% guaranteed. Good stuff though. Next question. How dos she consistently hit people that dont just run into her stuff? She lacks the ability to create opportunities.

 

[dragontamer]

This is purely contingent upon the opponents reaction time. But still Robin would be at a few frames of disadvantage depending on how the attack was avoided and which attack was used.

Erm... yes. That's the deal with projectile characters. But you're trading frame disadvantages for space control. If you want frame advantages, you wouldn't be playing a zoning character. You'd be playing a speedster like Shiek or Mario.

 

[Macchiato]

This is purely contingent upon the opponents reaction time. But still Robin would be at a few frames of disadvantage depending on how the attack was avoided and which attack was used.

Also Sheik doesnt have to dodge a thunder.

She can just duck and dash in. Only Thoron would hit her.

Zelda stuff - Several things you listed are not 100% guaranteed. Good stuff though. Next question. How dos she consistently hit people that dont just run into her stuff? She lacks the ability to create opportunities.

mix up approachs something she lacks. also jab and dtilt is a good way to create openings

 

[dragontamer]

mix up approachs something she lacks. also jab and dtilt is a good way to create openings

I've always found Zelda's defensive game to be pretty good.

Once you master the invincibility frames, Neutral-B beats ALL SH Aerials approaches, forcing opponents to approach Zelda on the ground. (or perhaps Empty SH -> Fast fall dash in to punish neutral-B's cooldown) Opponents can't camp, due to Up-B and Side-B.

Zelda doesn't seem to have any options to stop a grounded opponent from running in, aside from maybe a single Side-B to kinda-pressure the opponent's dash. Down-B does seem to force jumps, but I haven't played with her / against her enough to figure it out quite yet.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Erm... yes. That's the deal with projectile characters. But you're trading frame disadvantages for space control. If you want frame advantages, you wouldn't be playing a zoning character. You'd be playing a speedster like Shiek or Mario.

Here is the difference between Dhalsim and Robin. You avoid Dhalsim's projectile it leaves him in strong position to punish unless you have a speedy option. Robin is not in a strong position to punish when someone avoids her stuff on reaction even with just universal options. You have to be pre-emptive with Robin and try to get opponents to literally run into her attacks. Robin also has garbage mobility like Dhalsim. Unlike Dhalsim though she doesnt have an amazing escape option. Dhalsim can teleport to escape. Robin has to actually guess with that horrible roll or try to fight back with her jab. Her jab is solid but its 4 frames. Nothing amazing.

I think all the thunders have around 40 frames of recovery. I need to check Robin's data again.

That's...alot.

 

[Robert26]

Anyone want to Smash on the Wii U ? my ID is morphius88. I'll be on around 6, just add me. Thx and look forward to the challengers:-)

 

[Furret]

Is Zelda a good character? I know she has a bad design (tall and light) and her up smash was nerfed to hell, but I haven't heard/seen anyone analyze her competitive viability yet.

U tilt replaces a lot of the function of the old up smash and While they gave her a really good new kill option they made her a lot of other ones weaker or have more ending lag (U smash kills later, has a smaller hitbox and people fall out of it now, F smash people fall out of it more often, D smash lost the intangible leg and has less killing power, Fair and Bair have so much ending lag you will have landing lag, U air kills later, U tilt no longer is a kill option, F tilt has a smaller hit box). Her Dair is better though. Her grab is still hella slow and they gave her a second situation based projectile. she feels really bad to be honest, but the U special alone could get her some use in doubles.

also @ Macchiato believes everyone is high or mid tier, I wouldn't listen to him (someones has be last buddy, although zelda isn't the worst)

Zelda is certainly not mid tier.

Low tier easy.

Also...combos? What?

D throw shenanigans and u tilt/d tilt follow ups
you can get u throw follow ups at lower %s (aka 0%) and U air combo starters are just bad, but you can do those

Zelda stuff - Several things you listed are not 100% guaranteed. Good stuff though. Next question. How dos she consistently hit people that dont just run into her stuff? She lacks the ability to create opportunities.

her approach is still butt, pivot grab was nerfed because Zelda can only have one nice thing. and as mentioned earlier in the post 2 situational projectiles. Approach with Nair and even that is worse from the last game, she can try to use U special as an approach and it will catch certain things. Defensively though this character is much better, with low ending lag on Jab (but stupid starting lag), Dtilt/Utilt both having good uses and with her improved N special she can be more difficult to approach.

 

[meleebrawler]

I've always found Zelda's defensive game to be pretty good.

Once you master the invincibility frames, Neutral-B beats ALL SH Aerials approaches, forcing opponents to approach Zelda on the ground. (or perhaps Empty SH -> Fast fall dash in to punish neutral-B's cooldown) Opponents can't camp, due to Up-B and Side-B.

Zelda doesn't seem to have any options to stop a grounded opponent from running in, aside from maybe a single Side-B to kinda-pressure the opponent's dash. Down-B does seem to force jumps, but I haven't played with her / against her enough to figure it out quite yet.

Uncharged Phantoms can mess up opponent's spacing on the ground with their pushy body
(as well as ruining Mac's recovery). Teleporting in place can act like those custom pseudo-counters
while also freaking out those who fear it's power, and if you get lucky with the first hit and think fast...
elevator.

 

[dragontamer]

I think all the thunders have around 40 frames of recovery. I need to check Robin's data again.

That's...alot.

And Dhalsim's Yoga Fireball has 48 frames of cooldown. Heh, I was wondering why it felt a lot like Dhalsim.

I do realize its a different game. 40 frames for a projectile doesn't really seem that crazy to me. SHs are all around 40 frames, and unless the opponent is preemptively rolling against your thunders, you really aren't getting into a major disadvantage from a frame-data perspective. Your opponent still has to close the distance, and in practice, the ~40 frames of recovery from Thunder / Elthunder doesn't give me much trouble... mainly because I'm standing very far away from them.

Speedsters like Sonic and Capt. Falcon are of course an exception.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I just thought it was common knowledge that Marth significantly fell from grace in this game and that Lucina isn't any better.

it is common knowledge but he obviously felt otherwise to put him that high. like he did not even defend it.

 

[LonkQ]

I gotta say, I'm not really impressed with Zelda either, partially because some of her moves plain don't work at times on top of a lacking aerial game. Up B OOS is a nice tool for early kills but in many ways she just feels limited.

 

[Nocally]

Elfire yes. The *thunders, no. Not in my experience. It is a mistake for Robin to overuse Elfire. The "Thunder" series has very low cooldown, and opponents usually don't get strong "punishes" against me.

Opponents are usually in a "SH Fair" situation though, which is often a disadvantaged position for Robin. So Shiek, who's SH Fair seems to beat out Robin will force Robin into some major pressure when Shiek SH over an Elthunder. However, Thunder and ElThunder seem to come out too fast for reaction at the footsie distance I'm talking about... so a preemptive SH Fair from Robin is the strategy at that particular footsie distance IMO.

(Shiek SH over the ElThunder, Fairs the landing, forcing Robin to shield, and then Shiek has a Grab/Jab mixup to continue the pressure). The mental issue here however is very similar to Street Fighter Fireballs. Robin can beat out any SH game by preempting the opponent's attacks with powerful aerials of his own, or anti-air with (lulz) LSDSmash or UTilts, or a preemptive aerial (SH Nair, SH LSFair)

The opponent can spend a movement option to dodge out the *Thunder. Usually either a roll or a jump. From there on out, your opponent's movement is limited, and the favor is in Robin.

-----------

.

I would say you are right with your analysis, but you forget something, small characters like Pikachu can just duck/crawl right under the Thunder* attacks. It's still a good punishment tool after some landing traps, but ducing under it is still a viable option.
(I don't know about the footsie distance you were talking about, but I just wanted to tell you about the option of crawling)

 

[Road Death Wheel]

2 thing about zelda that really bug me about her is her inability to hold a phantom charge. (iv stated this before)
and that her air side b puts her into free fall. thats rediculous reatreating air side b's and advancing as well could of been a big part of her game plan. and would definitly give her a much better control game.

but besides that she has a few good pokes and some nice combos. nair to landing to tilts are true combo. in the same way pika bair to landing can true combo. the hitstun is just enough.

 

[HeavyLobster]

If you keep getting Flame Choked on last stock and Wizard Footed when trying to combo constantly, as well as seeing multiple U-Tilts and Warlock Punches, that's me.

Ganondorf is a very, very intimidating and actually viable character. If he can land a grab on you (it's not that hard actually), he can D-Throw > F-Air, U-Throw > U-Air, etc. His throws have so much potential, and he has the most powerful throw in terms of damage, which is his F-Throw (13% damage and can lead up to combos). Sure, you may bring up the argument he has the worst grab in the game, but he doesn't, his grab game may be bad, but certainly not the worse (I miss more grabs with Falcon than I do Ganon). His grab game can extend further to his Flame Choke, specifically his non-techable aerial FC, which can lead up to some nasty roll chases. The most likely thing is that the opponent will indeed try to attack, so a good, quick SH D-Air should do the trick due to its slow, but reliable speed.

And his Wizard's Foot > Wizard's Foot ground combo, which leads off the edge, is amazing at moderate percents, and it's an entirely viable gimping move due to this fact: the first attack sends the opponent off stage, and if you time it right, the second attack should eat their second jump up and send them even further back. Now, this method definitely doesn't work with Fox, Falco, Kirby Cast, Jigglypuff or certain others, but to characters like Pit, Dark Pit and Rosalina, if Ganon gets back on the stage, he will edge-guard like no tomorrow on you until you're KO'd, and will NOT let you get back on the stage. Sometimes, on characters like Duck Hunt, he can trick the opponent by using U-Air and then recovering, just to ensure an insulting edge-guard. Oh, and don't get me started on the Sourspot of Ganondorf's D-Air; that thing's more of a sweetspot.

No one really knows the usefulness of the U-Tilt, other than being a very powerful vertical-horizontal KO tool and an instant shield breaker. However, it's perfect for certain characters trying to get back on the stage, especially those not careful enough to even recover correctly, and its range is beyond menacing, as it covers a lot of range horizontally and vertically. This is also a good tool for mind games, especially at the edge, again, since if an opponent is trying to recover, and gets up on the stage, Ganondorf can simply turn around and activate the U-Tilt.

His combos are plentiful, and a tad underrated. Like above, he has D-Throw > F-Air, and U-Throw > U-Air, but he has, like explained by everyone, Dash Combos. All of his aerials can be used with Dash Attack, especially the mainly used U-Air. There are many other ones, like D-Tilt > F-Tilt and such, but people have to experiment and implement. Ever tried Dash Attack > U-Air > F-Air? Quite useful for racking up the damage quickly.

Customs...where do I even begin; his 2nd N-Spec, Warlock Blade, is a great pressure tool, as well as a fast and efficient attack, with a chance of breaking the shields off opponents. This is especially deadly to Jigglypuff, obviously, but there is so much potential, such as the bettered use of the combo, N-Spec > U-Tilt, if the shield is broken, because the U-Tilt becomes the new Warlock Punch. Then there's his Wizard's Dropkick, which gives his shoddy recovery a better chance, as its horizontal distance goes well with his vertical recovery U-Spec. If Dark Fists is involved, he has a better and more powerful recovery and attack. I'd prefer that moveset over any other, unless I want early kills by the D-Spec 1.

I might try making an MU chart for Ganondorf myself, and I enjoy using him in the game; he's a very viable character to me, and you guys do not know what you are missing with him. He's a really great and steel-solid character. Sure, he lacks in range, but it's dangerous to go against him in Footsies, especially when he lands the hit. His range is compensated by certain customs, though. An annoying and a viable character, something I enjoy playing; not deserving of low tier.

What are your thoughts on Ganondorf?

Camp harder vs. Ganon. He really struggles against a good camp game. If you go aggro against Ganon with most anyone except Sonic, Sheik, and sometimes Falcon it's pretty easy for Ganon to kill you. Of course every good Ganon has lots of experience against camping and won't get flustered. You do have to be on point when it comes to keeping him out, because if he gets inside the castle walls your entire village is getting burned to the ground, so to speak.
Edit: Wait, I just noticed your comments on Ganon's throws. Since when is U-throw -> Uair an actual combo and not just a juggle? Also D-throw -> Fair only ever works if your opponent DIs in, so it's limited to scenarios when you're near the ledge. Ganon only really can ever get D-throw->iDA at 0% or sometimes D-throw ->Dropkick at low-mid %s off throws with any sort of reliability, neither of which is particularly impressive reward from a grab that's very hard to land on a defensive player. You're missing more grabs with Falcon than Ganon because Falcon's faster and therefore a bit harder to control, and because you're using them more often because Falcon's grab game is better. Flame Choke is awesome, but Ganon's regular grab game, while still useful and valuable for a number of reasons, really isn't all that great. All of the combos you listed are non-guaranteed strings. Please lurk the Ganon boards before telling everyone he's high tier.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Camp harder vs. Ganon. He really struggles against a good camp game. If you go aggro against Ganon with most anyone except Sonic, Sheik, and sometimes Falcon it's pretty easy for Ganon to kill you. Of course every good Ganon has lots of experience against camping and won't get flustered. You do have to be on point when it comes to keeping him out, because if he gets inside the castle walls your entire village is getting burned to the ground, so to speak.

Yes he and claims his prize on his galiant war horse with the villages most prized maiden of royal blood.

...So to speak.

 

[thehard]

Hm so Diddy Kong's jetpack can be absorbed by G&W's Bucket and it fills 2/3. I'm not sure of the exact behavior but the CPU charged right at me and I'm pretty sure I went unscathed with the bucket out? Don't remember if you could do this in Brawl.

Also, to whoever asked about Captain Falcon usage dropping off a few pages ago, I saw this coming. He's really overrated and I think people are just now learning this. Maybe ZeRo will turn some heads again, though.

 

[LonkQ]

The only poke that seems really good is Dtilt. I think most of my issue is that Zelda requires precision to do decently, but most heavies output similar damage without as many glaring holes in their moveset and don't need a sweetspot. Up B OOS is great for early kills but besides that I just can't think of many benefits she has.

 

[Furret]

The only poke that seems really good is Dtilt. I think most of my issue is that Zelda requires precision to do decently, but most heavies output similar damage without as many glaring holes in their moveset and don't need a sweetspot. Up B OOS is great for early kills but besides that I just can't think of many benefits she has.

over looking N special, but for the most part I agree

 

[Road Death Wheel]

The only poke that seems really good is Dtilt. I think most of my issue is that Zelda requires precision to do decently, but most heavies output similar damage without as many glaring holes in their moveset and don't need a sweetspot. Up B OOS is great for early kills but besides that I just can't think of many benefits she has.

most heavys cant teleport and reflect.

 

[Phenomiracle]

Once you master the invincibility frames, Neutral-B beats ALL SH Aerials approaches, forcing opponents to approach Zelda on the ground. (or perhaps Empty SH -> Fast fall dash in to punish neutral-B's cooldown) Opponents can't camp, due to Up-B and Side-B.

Nayru's hitboxes come out on frame 12, so it relies a lot more on reads than it does your reaction. Most characters can easily bait out the Nayru's and punish its endlag.

Most characters can easily camp Zelda, given how her Din's Fire (one of the most telegraphed moves in the game) can be avoided with two shield rolls or a mix-up of jumps and airdodge or spotdodges.

Farore's? Shield and punish. Farore's isn't an approach option at all, unless your opponent is spamming projectiles.

Little Mac, one of Zelda's most horrendous MUs, can wait all day. Zelda literally can't do anything to force an approach, she can only try to bait him. Speedies wreck Zelda.

 

[dragontamer]

Nayru's hitboxes come out on frame 12, so it relies a lot more on reads than it does your reaction. Most characters can easily bait out the Nayru's and punish its endlag.

I don't care about the hitboxes. When do those invincibility frames come out?

Zelda is full invincible long before the hitboxes come out. Neutral-B effectively starts on the invincibility frames if you're using it as a defensive option... not on its hitbox frames. I'm guessing maybe a frame8ish invincible attack, but I haven't analyzed Zelda's frame data yet.

When properly using an attack with invincibility frames, you do your best to not get baited. I'm not a Zelda Main, but I do feel like I need to respect the Nayru's Love invincibility. Yes, I never fail to punish its cooldown... but as a defensive option its something I keep in mind.

Most characters can easily camp Zelda, given how her Din's Fire (one of the most telegraphed moves in the game) can be avoided with two shield rolls or a mix-up of jumps and airdodge or spotdodges.

Full-screen Din's Fire seems to get large enough to punish an early spot-dodge. There's a certain long-range where it seems to be able to punish spot-dodges. Its maybe 75%+ of FD's length where Din's Fire hitbox just gets so large it can be activated extremely early (forcing early spotdodges) or late (punishing those early spotdodges).

The key there is to stay "inside" of that range of course.

 

[Gunla]

Anyone want to Smash on the Wii U ? my ID is morphius88. I'll be on around 6, just add me. Thx and look forward to the challengers:-)

You'll want to head over to Online Discussion's NNID sharing thread to find others to play online with.

 

[Phenomiracle]

Neutral-B effectively starts on the invincibility frames if you're using it as a defensive option... not on its hitbox frames. I'm guessing maybe a frame8ish invincible attack, but I haven't analyzed Zelda's frame data yet.

Assuming the frame 8 invincibility assumption holds, you do realize that renders Nayru's still easily baitable, yes?

It's unreliable as a defensive option. Not useless, it's a tool for picking up shield rolls, but it's far, far better to simply shield or use Utilt for anti-air options.

@BJN39 can drop the info on the intangibility frames.

Full-screen Din's Fire seems to get large enough to punish an early spot-dodge.

You're assuming a massive, massive amount of sheer stupidity on your opponent's part to simply plant himself and only spotdodge. I listed it as one way to avoid Din's.

There's a certain long-range where it seems to be able to punish spot-dodges. Its maybe 75%+ of FD's length where Din's Fire hitbox just gets so large it can be activated extremely early (forcing early spotdodges) or late (punishing those early spotdodges).

The key there is to stay "inside" of that range of course

Lol, shield.

Simple as that.

And then shield roll or dash + punish. Or jump/double-jump airdodge.

Din's was already easily as hell to avoid in Brawl. Smash 4 nerfed its range and hitbox size even further, it's literally just more useless this time around.

 

[dragontamer]

Assuming the frame 8 invincibility assumption holds, you do realize that renders Nayru's still easily baitable, yes?

It's unreliable as a defensive option. Not useless, it's a tool for picking up shield rolls, but it's far, far better to simply shield or use Utilt as anti-air options.

@BJN39 can drop the info on the intangibility frames.

Well, I'm certainly not a Zelda Main, so I'll have to trust ya on that.

But I imagine that the invincibility frames on Nayru makes beating out Fast-Fall Nairs a bit easier than the UTilt. Based on my limited experience anyway. At very least, an opponent who delays the FF on a Nair can bait out the UAir, but Nayru's love is slow, meaty, and invincible enough to win with almost any timing.

At least, I play against Zelda's with this mindset. If I'm wrong and there's an easier way, I'd be happy to switch strategies. But I definitely feel like Nayru's love demands respect as I approach Zelda.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Well, I'm certainly not a Zelda Main, so I'll have to trust ya on that.

But I imagine that the invincibility frames on Nayru makes beating out Fast-Fall Nairs a bit easier than the UTilt. Based on my limited experience anyway. At very least, an opponent who delays the FF on a Nair can bait out the UAir, but Nayru's love is slow, meaty, and invincible enough to win with almost any timing.

At least, I play against Zelda's with this mindset. If I'm wrong and there's an easier way, I'd be happy to switch strategies. But I definitely feel like Nayru's love demands respect as I approach Zelda.

the way nairo spams the move to the high heavens i could see the need to respect that Xd.

 

[dragontamer]

You're assuming a massive, massive amount of sheer stupidity on your opponent's part to simply plant himself and only spotdodge. I listed it as one way to avoid Din's.

No, when an opponent understands that an attack beats out a certain option, they won't use that option.

Din's Fire, at a certain distance, prevents Spot-Dodges as an effective strategy. That's all I'm saying. Yes, I do realize there are other options, but removing options from your opponent is a good thing.

Lol, shield.

Simple as that.

And then shield roll or dash + punish.

Full-screen Shields aren't exactly threatening: Zelda is just going to lob another Din's Fire at you and you have an even smaller shield to deal with it.

Forcing the opponent to Shield Roll is awesome. Shield Roll is always suboptimal and punishable. At very least, shield-rolls do not put any offensive pressure on Zelda.

As for Dash->Punish, congrats, Zelda just forced you to approach her. Din's Fire doesn't have horrible cooldown, especially from full-screen. I don't think you can "punish" a full-screen Din's Fire. There is an effective range to Din's Fire for sure, and if the opponent is "inside" the effective range, then yes Zelda is quite punishable with Din's Fire.

So Zelda effectively tethers the opponent inside a specific range, due to Din's fire mechanics.

My point is that Zelda forces the opponent to approach. Now whether or not she has good options vs approaching opponents... that's another story. She's clearly suboptimal at stopping grounded approaches... but if a player can develop a good anti-approach strategy with Zelda, I think she'll be mid-tier-ish.

Again, I'm not a Zelda main. But I just feel like I have to respect certain elements of her gameplan. The way Din's Fire forces me to approach her (at very specific long distances), the way Nayru's Love seems to beat out "dumb" approaches... I have to bait out her options and then punish. But Zelda's cooldown on her ground game (outside of Nayru's Love) is actually kind of respectable. (Smashes, Tilts, Jabs... they're slow as all heck on startup but pretty good on recovery).

I'm not calling her the best character in Smash4 or anything, I'm just saying what my experience against her is like. She seems to force the opponent to run in on her, and then stuffs a lot of dumb approach options.

And when the opponent's best strategy is sitting at footsie distance trying to bait out various options, I think there's good opportunity for high-level play.

------------------

I know this as a fact: Nayru's love can be used on reaction to Diddy's Side-B to stuff both the grab or the attack. Little tidbits like that definitely show how good of an anti-approach option the attack is. As you note, Nayru's love is very punishable on cooldown, but anything that consistently beats out Diddy's Side-B on reaction is pretty awesome in my books.

 

[Trifroze]

Regarding Falcon doing worse than before, he has never done particularly good. He did show up in like top 8 of regional tournaments a lot but that hasn't changed recently like some are saying.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Serious question.
If you feel Bowser > Charizard.


Why?

 

[Emblem Lord]

In Street Fighter jumping means you commit and thats a 35 frame action generally. Also jumping leaves you wide open. Not so in this game. You still have all your options off a jump in this game. Factor in reaction time and the opponent is in trouble if they simply jump at him. Also SF calculates recovery different for fireballs in the wiki. Recovery is calculated as the entire duration of the move from the first frame to the last. If you are looking at his actual recovery frames from when the flame comes out its 34 frames which is quite ridiculous.

In this game simply rolling towards Robin leaves him at disadvantage. The space where his tools are most effective is mid range. The same range where he can put himself in the most danger. The only move he has that can truly force a hasty approach is Thoron. But it's only one move not to mention all his tomes have limited uses.

So basically no Robin is NOT Dhalsim. Dhalsim forces reactions way better and controls better. He escapes trap situations far better as well. One of Robin's greatest weaknesses.

Robin is closer to Sagat in truth. Robin and Sagat both have blindspots where they are forced to act but doing the wrong action can get you killed.

BTW Naryu's love is not scary its just annoying. It doesn't kill. It is not threatening. How in the world does this move "demand" respect?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

...who in the hell compared Sim to Robin? They're nothing alike, save that they zone, and Sim does a helluva lot better job of that in his own game.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Emblem Lord]

dragontamer

 

[Phenomiracle]

No, when an opponent understands that an attack beats out a certain option, they won't use that option.

Din's Fire, at a certain distance, prevents Spot-Dodges as an effective strategy. That's all I'm saying. Yes, I do realize there are other options, but removing options from your opponent is a good thing.

Uh, no. You're looking at this far too simply.

They'll still use that option. You're assuming literally a read ability of almost total omnipotence for the improbable chance you could stuff a missed spotdodge for what payoff, 4-7% of damage with virtually no knockback? And don't kid yourself by bringing up the sweet-spot as a response, please be serious.

Just because it works on stuffing one option on that time a hard read happens to good doesn't mean that option is shut down for the opponent. He/she can still easily learn your pattern and cycle around his/her options to make him/her nearly impossible to read.

Full-screen Shields aren't exactly threatening: Zelda is just going to lob another Din's Fire at you and you have an even smaller shield to deal with it.

Forcing the opponent to Shield Roll is awesome. Shield Roll is always suboptimal and punishable. At very least, shield-rolls do not put any offensive pressure on Zelda.

Your perspective is quite limited.

Powershielding? Mix-up of movement for shield regeneration, which is quite fast in Smash 4?

We're talking about forcing a character off quite the distance to approach. Zelda, like most characters, has nothing to punish a shield-roll a 3/4 of an FD away.

Under a complete mix-up, which most competitive players who are experienced with camping have, Din's Fire will not work. At all. Period.

As for Dash->Punish, congrats, Zelda just forced you to approach her. Din's Fire doesn't have horrible cooldown, especially from full-screen. I don't think you can "punish" a full-screen Din's Fire. There is an effective range to Din's Fire for sure, and if the opponent is "inside" the effective range, then yes Zelda is quite punishable with Din's Fire.

More like congratulations, you forced an approach for a dash attack, now they can go right back on the other side and repeat the same process.

You sound like you haven't played many campy players.

Again, I'm not a Zelda main. But I just feel like I have to respect certain elements of her gameplan. The way Din's Fire forces me to approach her (at very specific long distances), the way Nayru's Love seems to beat out "dumb" approaches... I have to bait out her options and then punish. But Zelda's cooldown on her ground game (outside of Nayru's Love) is actually kind of respectable. (Smashes, Tilts, Jabs... they're slow as all heck on startup but pretty good on recovery).

I'm not calling her the best character in Smash4 or anything, I'm just saying what my experience against her is like. She seems to force the opponent to run in on her, and then stuffs a lot of dumb approach options.

And when the opponent's best strategy is sitting at footsie distance trying to bait out various options, I think there's good opportunity for high-level play.

Smh at literally all of this.

Zelda is insanely easy to bait out and punish, I'm amused at your "respect" for her, it's like respecting a schoolboy who taunts the bully and has nothing to back up his trash talk.

And no, for the hundredth time, she has nothing to force approaches. At all.

I'm done here.

 

[Emblem Lord]

@ Phenomiracle

*Senses your power level*

*Piccolo voice*

"I've never felt a power like this!!! HOW IS HE GENERATING SO MUCH ENERGY?!!?!?"

 

[TTTTTsd]

...who in the hell compared Sim to Robin? They're nothing alike, save that they zone, and Sim does a helluva lot better job of that in his own game.

Smooth Criminal

If Dhalsim had Thoron though he'd probably be even more top tier in SF2.

Also yeah Zelda is still bad because all of her Brawl problems seem to be retained on a base level + power nerfs, the new Down-B doesn't help too much. Strong defensive options with no way to really force the person to have to respect them....sad

 

[dragontamer]

@ Phenomiracle , thanks for the discussion. As stated before, I'm not a Zelda main, so I'll just trust you on what you say. And there aren't very many Zelda matchups to say the least. She isn't exactly a popular character, so I always enjoy the theory-craft with the lesser known characters.

In this game simply rolling towards Robin leaves him at disadvantage. The space where his tools are most effective is mid range. The same range where he can put himself in the most danger. The only move he has that can truly force a hasty approach is Thoron. But it's only one move not to mention all his tomes have limited uses.

So basically no Robin is NOT Dhalsim. Dhalsim forces reactions way better and controls better. He escapes trap situations far better as well. One of Robin's greatest weaknesses.

Robin is closer to Sagat in truth. Robin and Sagat both have blindspots where they are forced to act but doing the wrong action can get you killed.

I'll also say that Robin doesn't have Dhalsim's teleport, so any direct comparisons are obviously going to be superficial at best. Perhaps the comparison has run its course.

In any case, Robin is definitely one guy who controls space effectively. ElFire leaves a hitbox so long as it touches something, including the ground. Its like PK Fire that almost always activates on the ground. The opponent can time rolls around Robin's stuff of course, but I like the idea of a character that encourages rolls from his opponents.

Where Robin's faults lie is that a lot of his attacks require commitment. But the opponent's reaction to them seems to require commitment as well (Rolls are a high-commitment defensive option).

Jumping doesn't require as much commitment as it does in Street Fighter, but most characters only have two jumps and you cannot block on landing. Robin can often get free damage (*Thunder, El-Fire) on your landing, unless your character has a reflector.

I can say that Crawling is a problem of course, if your character can crawl under either attack that is probably the best bet against Robin.

BTW Naryu's love is not scary its just annoying. It doesn't kill. It is not threatening. How in the world does this move "demand" respect?

Zelda kills at pretty low percentages. A kick at 80% or so will KO you, and her Smashes are pretty mean as well. As such, I don't like ceding free damage to Zelda players.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

@ Phenomiracle , thanks for the discussion. As stated before, I'm not a Zelda main, so I'll just trust you on what you say. And there aren't very many Zelda matchups to say the least. She isn't exactly a popular character, so I always enjoy the theory-craft with the lesser known characters.



I'll also say that Robin doesn't have Dhalsim's teleport, so any direct comparisons are obviously going to be superficial at best. Perhaps the comparison has run its course.

In any case, Robin is definitely one guy who controls space effectively. ElFire leaves a hitbox so long as it touches something, including the ground. Its like PK Fire that almost always activates on the ground. The opponent can time rolls around Robin's stuff of course, but I like the idea of a character that forces the opponent to roll.



Zelda kills at pretty low percentages. A kick at 80% or so will KO you, and her Smashes are pretty mean as well. As such, I don't like ceding free damage to Zelda players.

To add at the end, Up B kills at 100%.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

To add at the end, Up B kills at 100%.

Or with an elevator, can even kill around 40% xD

Her ftilt can also kill at 90 ish

 

[thehard]

I posted this elsewhere, but I figured you guys would be interested too: Team Sp00ky is legalizing customs for their next tournament.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I posted this elsewhere, but I figured you guys would be interested too: Team Sp00ky is legalizing customs for their next tournament.

Good.

About damn time someone tried something different.
I would watch, but school