Character Competitive Impressions

[Antonykun]

Backsliding already? Disgusting.


He isn't as strong as the other two. Am I an *** though if I feel Sword fighter has better MU's then WFT?
Im thinking of 4 characters right now (not including mac) where if I cape or D-air (and his D-air is akin to Pikachu's) those characters are dead and it's not a hard confirm. Unlike certain other edge-guards.

If I have 2 main qualms it's flipping his Jab/n-air start-up, and you can barely link anything with Default size.

For the record I mained Swordfighter because I knew they sucked. They just because more and more unbearably sucky that I had enough.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

IF we look at the like 5 tier list posted that werent completely crap, most people put him at top 5-10 and nobody was arguing about it but whatever. I think its semi bold you dont whatever I dont care really lol.

>///> alright then lol

 

[thehard]

Oh wow I'm stupid, I forgot to mention Tourney Locator is adopting customs in their tournaments as well.

I think it's safe to say the reckoning is near.

 

[Antonykun]

Oh wow I'm stupid, I forgot to mention Tourney Locator is adopting customs in their tournaments as well.

I think it's safe to say the reckoning is near.

The end is nigh Diddy! THE END IS NIGH DIDDY!
Can't wait to see who's good or ok in customs on meta

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Oh wow I'm stupid, I forgot to mention Tourney Locator is adopting customs in their tournaments as well.

I think it's safe to say the reckoning is near.

Is there a list of streams that are slated to allow customs like this in the near future?

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Oops messed up my post, fixed post is below

 

[thehard]

Is there a list of streams that are slated to allow customs like this in the near future?

Sp00ky, TL, Xanadu side-tournament, something Boss is hosting, maybe Anther's?

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

I think it's funny there's no unanimously judged "worst character/s".

Even like a bottom 3 seems everywhere from person to person.

I think it's just a testament to how amazing the balance (and design) is in this game.

We can point fingers at who's good, but when it comes to who's WORSE, it's so hard. Every character has their own strengths in this game, and no character gets completely outclassed by another unlike previous titles. Everyone below the top is pretty close. We have some opinions on who's not good, but among them (~10 some characters) we seem to be very far from reaching any common agreement on who's the worst 5.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

The end is nigh Diddy! THE END IS NIGH DIDDY!
Can't wait to see who's good or ok in customs on meta

i can now have bowser or ganon as my third character. this is gunna be awsome.

 

[Firefoxx]

Has Will used DK at all in Smash Attack? I've only seen him go Sheik

 

[HeroMystic]

Oh wow I'm stupid, I forgot to mention Tourney Locator is adopting customs in their tournaments as well.

I think it's safe to say the reckoning is near.

Seems everyone waited for Apex to end before they started busting out customs.

 

[Yokoblue]

Seems everyone waited for Apex to end before they started busting out customs.

I know that my scene in canada is waiting for big tournaments to switch until we switch. Once evo or apex say they go custom we automatically switch.

 

[thehard]

Has Will used DK at all in Smash Attack? I've only seen him go Sheik

I don't blame him. He got juggled to all hell in GF as DK last time.

His Sheik play is pretty awesome too.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I know that my scene in canada is waiting for big tournaments to switch until we switch. Once evo or apex say they go custom we automatically switch.

Tell your scene to think for itself. It doesn't need a big tournament's "permission" to switch.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I don't blame him. He got juggled to all hell in GF as DK last time.

His Sheik play is pretty awesome too.

The twitch streams reaction was priceless.
("the dong will not be expanded on this day")

 

[Firefoxx]

Hopefully Kong Cyclone is enough to get him to switch back

 

[Nu~]

Have fun trying (read: failing) to remember the properties, trajectories, and patterns of 24 various fruit

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Have fun trying (read: failing) to remember the properties, trajectories, and patterns of 24 various fruit

i will have fun. i love learnning mu's good luck applying 24 trajectories and patterns of various fruit.

 

[Ffamran]

The end is nigh Diddy! THE END IS NIGH DIDDY!
Can't wait to see who's good or ok in customs on meta

So, you must be Walter Joseph Kovacs.

Anyway, since I played a couple of matches with Mega Man a couple minutes ago, but I remember the commentators saying that GimR used Mr. Game & Watch's Uair to force options, can Mega Man do the same with his Uair, Air Shooter? I think so since they can use Uair, force their opponent to take the hit which is deadly especially if they jump it like what happened to Snow's Fox, air dodge which means Mr. G&W and Mega Man can punish off of, or something else.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Just as character relative strength becomes more pronounced over time, as do optimal movesets.
TbH I think only 2 Fruits will be used.

I don't think any Shulk main is going to really dedicate them-self to all 3 Monado stances either, it's dizzying for lack of a better word to go from Decisive speed, to regular speed and then Hyper speed and given the presence of 1111 tournaments.... most are going to stick with regular Monado. I stopped playing with Dec because juggling decisive and regular practice felt like It was slowing me down.

Imo customs aren't going to be something of great "variety" but instead present the possibility of tighter roster balance, which isn't confirmed.

If anything my real backing of customs is because it seems to be the only way to not have Mii's deal with the BS in NA that they don't have to in Japan.


Plus there is something fun about Power vision.

 

[thehard]

Alright, Will vs. Jtails is probably the most entertaining Sheik vs. Diddy match I've seen so far. Will was turning bananas against Diddy and he actually used Sheik's side-b! Played the matchup so meticulously. So sad he lost.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Alright, Will vs. Jtails is probably the most entertaining Sheik vs. Diddy match I've seen so far. Will was turning bananas against Diddy and he actually used Sheik's side-b! Played the matchup so meticulously. So sad he lost.

it was a bummer.

plus no dong >.>

 

[Yokoblue]

Tell your scene to think for itself. It doesn't need a big tournament's "permission" to switch.

My scene doesnt want to switch because the weekly are pratice for bigger tournament as well. So we always use the tournament rule of the next big tourney. A lot of players wont be coming to a custom scene if the bigger scene isnt custom.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

You know something that constantly lingers in the back of my mind whenever tiers are discussed?

^That guy.
I always wonder what kind of an impact a unique, popular character like Mewtwo could have on the metagame. Undoubtedly, the second he's released he'll be exploited to the max by competitive and casual players alike, so his use will be widespread at his launch. His viability will determine where he goes from there, but early on I suspect that matchups vs Mewtwo will be yet another key factor in the viability of other characters. If he ends up being good, this ripple effect will be more pronounced. Else, it won't matter much.

 

[Antonykun]

All right i made an MU chart for Villager yesterday,posted it on the Villager sub forum, but I got very few discussion. Seeing as you guys probably have some idea of how you guys are aware of Villager vs your main soo lets see if we can learn something by me posting MU chart.

Somethings to note:
I tried making this super conservative, as I often see people complaining that their character loses to* insert top tier here* (not you guys though you're all awesome)
All of Villager's MUs are technically winnable but god are the +2/3 stacked against you

(Major Disadvantage 35:65 or less)

(Disadvantage 40:60)

(Minor Disadvantage 45:55)

(Arbitrarily Close To Even 50:50)
/ /
(Minor Advantage 55:45)

(Advantage 60:40)

(Major Advantage 65:35 or more)


(Not Sure)


DK might be weird being a heavy that "beats" DK outranges Villager and has just enough speed to dance with his b-airs that snuff's villager's everything

 

[Nobie]

All right i made an MU chart for Villager yesterday,posted it on the Villager sub forum, but I got very few discussion. Seeing as you guys probably have some idea of how you guys are aware of Villager vs your main soo lets see if we can learn something by me posting MU chart.

Somethings to note:
I tried making this super conservative, as I often see people complaining that their character loses to* insert top tier here* (not you guys though you're all awesome)
All of Villager's MUs are technically winnable but god are the +2/3 stacked against you

(Major Disadvantage 35:65 or less)

(Disadvantage 40:60)

(Minor Disadvantage 45:55)

(Arbitrarily Close To Even 50:50)
/ /
(Minor Advantage 55:45)

(Advantage 60:40)

(Major Advantage 65:35 or more)


(Not Sure)


DK might be weird being a heavy that "beats" DK outranges Villager and has just enough speed to dance with his b-airs that snuff's villager's everything

I think the Mega Man vs. Villager matchup is somewhat in Villager's favor because while Mega Man can build up damage on Villager pretty effectively, he has a hard time landing Kos, especially if Villager camps the ledge.

 

[Ignoth]

All right i made an MU chart for Villager yesterday,posted it on the Villager sub forum, but I got very few discussion. Seeing as you guys probably have some idea of how you guys are aware of Villager vs your main soo lets see if we can learn something by me posting MU chart.

Somethings to note:
I tried making this super conservative, as I often see people complaining that their character loses to* insert top tier here* (not you guys though you're all awesome)
All of Villager's MUs are technically winnable but god are the +2/3 stacked against you

(Major Disadvantage 35:65 or less)

(Disadvantage 40:60)

(Minor Disadvantage 45:55)

(Arbitrarily Close To Even 50:50)
/ /
(Minor Advantage 55:45)

(Advantage 60:40)

(Major Advantage 65:35 or more)


(Not Sure)


DK might be weird being a heavy that "beats" DK outranges Villager and has just enough speed to dance with his b-airs that snuff's villager's everything

I'm no authority on this topic or anything, but I will point out that Villager having a minor advantage over Robin contradicts what I've read on Zaradriel's guide for Robin. Here's what he says on the subject:

Robin is Villager's greatest nightmare. A lot of villagers will adopt an edge-based Fairs-and-Lloids strategy; Arcfire lingers on the edge, preventing him from landing on it again safely and opening him up for punishment. His beloved Lloids and Fairs are countered very splendidly by Thoron, which pierces through his oft-used Lloid approach, and if he is playing campy, you will have plenty of time to charge it. Is he hiding behind a tree? Stay away and charge Thoron. It penetrates the tree, so if he tries to tend to it, he's in for a shock. Robin basically undermines his every option. Villager's only chance is to adopt a tree-less, edge-less ground-and-air combat style consisting of mostly Fairs (which it does already) and ground attacks, where you still hold the advantage. Villager can still catch your stuff, and if he is adept at catching your Thoron, keep it charged but save it for a sure moment of weakness. Or pelt him with El Thunders which are much less dangerous to lose.

What do you think?

 

[Antonykun]

I'm no authority on this topic or anything, but I will point out that Villager having a minor advantage over Robin contradicts what I've read on Zaradriel's guide for Robin. Here's what he says on the subject:




What do you think?

There's so much wrong with this guide. I'll try to counter all those points tomorrow morning or afternoon.

 

[meleebrawler]

This is why I don't like Zelda's design as a fighter. She's extremely defensive and reactive but without the tools to force approaches. She is also almost completely devoid of tools to approach with. Sure, she can demolish people with good reads between her aerials barring NAir, DTilt setups, Farore's Wind, and Nayru's Love. She has the tools to not be camped by projectiles but they kind of fall flat against characters with fast movement and attack speed. And if she's ever not in the lead, it's very possible for the opponent to lame her out. It's not something I would do (it's just not how I play) but it's a very viable strategy against her.

But then, you could also basically "lame out" a lot of heavies too, right?
Zelda basically trades weight for having potentially extremely swift kill moves (lightning kicks)
and smashes that don't leave her terribly open if she misses.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

You know something that constantly lingers in the back of my mind whenever tiers are discussed?

^That guy.
I always wonder what kind of an impact a unique, popular character like Mewtwo could have on the metagame. Undoubtedly, the second he's released he'll be exploited to the max by competitive and casual players alike, so his use will be widespread at his launch. His viability will determine where he goes from there, but early on I suspect that matchups vs Mewtwo will be yet another key factor in the viability of other characters. If he ends up being good, this ripple effect will be more pronounced. Else, it won't matter much.

Also something to consider is if his customs will be unlocked from the start or if they'll get added to the regular drop pool.

I kind of hope they're available from the start and make customs in general more appealing.

 

[Nu~]

There's so much wrong with this guide. I'll try to counter all those points tomorrow morning or afternoon.

I guess he forgot villager has pocket and doesn't just camp all day

 

[incrediblej]

About villager I don't play him but my brother does and I agree robin would have a disadvantage seeing as robins specials can be pocketed except for down special wich is hard to land and villager is quicker and can beat robin by a good amount so robin would lose and loud I say is used more to get off stage opponents

Edit: I also don't play robin

 

[Kofu]

But then, you could also basically "lame out" a lot of heavies too, right?
Zelda basically trades weight for having potentially extremely swift kill moves (lightning kicks)
and smashes that don't leave her terribly open if she misses.

Heavies tend to have better range, movement specials (Farore's Wind kind of counts here though), and either command grabs or other ways of damaging shields. Zelda's only real option to get past shields is her laggy grab. The heavies have better long-ranged pokes that they can use to get in. Zelda really doesn't have those. They heavies are also more forgiving hitboxes and damage output than Zelda. Obviously I'm oversimplifying Zelda but she feels like a very precise character that doesn't have the abilities to turn a match around if she can't play with the correct precision.

 

[NAKAT]

I'm not assuming, I'm going by what others are saying which was focus on Pika and fox mostly (which he did at the tournament where he lost to Ally's mario mostly)
Otherwise I don't care about nakat enough to follow what he does.

I go Ness, Fox, Pikachu in this order the most. These are my 3 mains. I dropped no one.

 

[Nu~]

Why am I sensing a pattern here?

 

[NAKAT]

I'm not assuming, I'm going by what others are saying which was focus on Pika and fox mostly (which he did at the tournament where he lost to Ally's mario mostly)
Otherwise I don't care about nakat enough to follow what he does.

That tournament I went 90% Ness. The Canadian tournament.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Heavies tend to have better range, movement specials (Farore's Wind kind of counts here though), and either command grabs or other ways of damaging shields. Zelda's only real option to get past shields is her laggy grab. The heavies have better long-ranged pokes that they can use to get in. Zelda really doesn't have those. They heavies are also more forgiving hitboxes and damage output than Zelda. Obviously I'm oversimplifying Zelda but she feels like a very precise character that doesn't have the abilities to turn a match around if she can't play with the correct precision.

*cough* other than a up b read *cough*

 

[NAKAT]

NAKAT still got some decent results with Ness before he dropped him, and ESAM as well with Pika before quitting. But NAKAT picking up Pikachu just means future results with a little fox on the side.

Again, I did not drop Ness at all. I went more Ness than Fox at Apex and go Ness primarily in tournaments unless fighting Diddy, Sonic, or Rosa.

 

[NairWizard]

You know something that constantly lingers in the back of my mind whenever tiers are discussed?

^That guy.
I always wonder what kind of an impact a unique, popular character like Mewtwo could have on the metagame. Undoubtedly, the second he's released he'll be exploited to the max by competitive and casual players alike, so his use will be widespread at his launch. His viability will determine where he goes from there, but early on I suspect that matchups vs Mewtwo will be yet another key factor in the viability of other characters. If he ends up being good, this ripple effect will be more pronounced. Else, it won't matter much.

As excited as I am for Mewtwo, my excitement is tempered by the fact that he's going to be light and have a big hurtbox, more than likely (if Melee is anything to go by, and Sakurai values consistency and accurate representation as we've already established). The combination is kind of devastating: it's like the worst part of Ganondorf combined with the worst part of Jigglypuff. Basically, he's going to be like Rosalina, only he won't have Luma as a buffer. That worries me, because unless he has amazing specials and/or amazing normals and/or amazing customs, he's going to be a pretty bad/mediocre character.

I have a feeling, though, that the balance team will recognize that and will give him some pretty sick normals and even sicker customs. We will see!

 

[Conda]

I go Ness, Fox, Pikachu in this order the most. These are my 3 mains. I dropped no one.

Awesome, good to hear.

Two questions for you @ NAKAT :

1) We've seen you lose sets due to players abusing Ness's recovery (swatting offstage after second jump is used, and punishing attempts to use PKT by hitting Ness and forcing him to re-try PKT). What're your advice to Ness players for getting around edgeguard situations like this?

2) In a customs-legal environment, many more characters get specials with windboxes (powerful ones, too). What are your thoughts on how this will likely result in more negative matchups for Ness, and how do you think Ness players will have to work around it?