Character Competitive Impressions

[Conda]

I checked out the teamsp00ky stream recording for the customs match and someone mentioned that JohnNumbers had a method to get all customs unlocked on a Wii U quick and easy. I'm not sure how he did it but apparently every Wii U in the venue had their customs unlocked because of him. Perhaps someone could find out how he did it.

They meant they have a 3ds with everything unlocked that they were using to port sets to the Wii Us.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

I'd throw Luigi in the 60:40, he can't answer any of Villager's projectiles asides from nair clanking against slingshot. All the characters listed as minor advg at least have a way to answer gyroids [Wario and Falcon struggle too, but they can get in with mobility]Also gets easily gimped offstage and by bowling ball onstage. Fireball is snuffed by trees and pockets. Both have troubles landing kill moves though cept Luigi does it out of a D throw and Villager does it out of a D smash? [not super knowledgeable on Villager]. Only + for Luigi is that Villager isn't terribly hard to combo once in.

I agree with DK though, I like using him over Luigi here. Funny, but his bair does wonders here like you said.

I don't feel wario really struggled in this mu. Eat projectiles don't spam bike so I don't get it pocketed. It's a very patient lame game. Take time build wafts.

 

[NAKAT]

My big question to nakat is why did he quote my posts backwards and in three different posts instead of just one.
The namesearch is real tho

I am still an SWF scrub after all these years.

 

[Balgorxz]

They meant they have a 3ds with everything unlocked that they were using to port sets to the Wii Us.

nope, he meant this.

how to grind all custom moves and take less time than unlocking mewtwo in melee
1.-get a first strike invincibility equipment and a home run bat equipment, they are both really common.
2.-play crazy orders with this, you will get between 10-40 random custom moves after every round, you will get enough money to try again and again, I recommend fox for this because you can guarantee the invincibility with the laser.
see this guy doing a 100 turn run and getting +60 customs moves

3.-if you are missing custom moves of certain characters use trophy rush or hard mode all star (which has a very high % of giving you a custom move of the characteer you are using every round).

easy customs easy life

 

[Jaxas]

nope, he meant this.

how to grind all custom moves and take less time than unlocking mewtwo in melee
1.-get a first strike invincibility equipment and a home run bat equipment, they are both really common.
2.-play crazy orders with this, you will get between 10-40 random custom moves after every round, you will get enough money to try again and again, I recommend fox for this because you can guarantee the invincibility with the laser.
see this guy doing a 100 turn run and getting +60 customs moves

3.-if you are missing custom moves of certain characters use trophy rush or hard mode all star (which has a very high % of giving you a custom move of the characteer you are using every round).

easy customs easy life

That is super handy, and way faster than just leaving Smash Tour running on its own all day.
Gonna have to try that tomorrow for sure

 

[Conda]

Is all hope lost for Marth? Is his only crippling weakness the length endlag on his moves? Poor guy, he's so fun but it seems he's not worth bothering with and will take more work than most other characters, and the numbers support those feels.

 

[M15t3R E]

Is all hope lost for Marth? Is his only crippling weakness the length endlag on his moves? Poor guy, he's so fun but it seems he's not worth bothering with and will take more work than most other characters, and the numbers support those feels.

It has been said in commentaries for some matches that Marth has even stronger tippers in this game, however can't wall out opponents like he used to. So it seems as though Marth traded some speed for more strength this time around.
Unfortunately for Marth, his best traits were the speed and low lag from his aerials and trading that away for more power was not a prudent trade-off.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

All right i made an MU chart for Villager yesterday,posted it on the Villager sub forum, but I got very few discussion. Seeing as you guys probably have some idea of how you guys are aware of Villager vs your main soo lets see if we can learn something by me posting MU chart.

Somethings to note:
I tried making this super conservative, as I often see people complaining that their character loses to* insert top tier here* (not you guys though you're all awesome)
All of Villager's MUs are technically winnable but god are the +2/3 stacked against you

(Major Disadvantage 35:65 or less)

(Disadvantage 40:60)

(Minor Disadvantage 45:55)

(Arbitrarily Close To Even 50:50)
/ /
(Minor Advantage 55:45)

(Advantage 60:40)

(Major Advantage 65:35 or more)


(Not Sure)


DK might be weird being a heavy that "beats" DK outranges Villager and has just enough speed to dance with his b-airs that snuff's villager's everything

I'm going to go ahead and say that ZSS probably belongs in the "slight advantage" crowd. She's got great burst range, solid kill options, and if you Lloyd rocket above 110 or so, you're dead. She's also fast enough to dodge a lot of the kill moves, and her burst range covers a lot of the camping options (if you're feeling ballsy, grab him out of chopping down the tree - it works!). However, she's not the strongest or heaviest, she can't gimp Villager at all, and his ledge play can be kinda tricky. So not a huge advantage.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

The problem I see with xustoms being alowed is that there are multiple combinations and can vary and there would never be a solid tier list unless people who play the same character try every combination enough to declare one combination the best and then would that be the one used for customs allowed tier lists

Thing is, this isn't a problem. It sounds hard to imagine there being a solid tier list, because allowing customs on would only improve the balance even more by giving characters more flexibility and ways to adapt to their matchup and opponent.

No you wouldn't take the most used or the "best" combination of customs for a character, you would rate the character overall in consideration of each possible combination (which isn't that hard -- more like you're rating the character, then considering some different options thanks to variations of the 3 B moves).

The beautiful thing is that if customs are allowed then there pretty much would be no tier list, or at least everyone would be viable if there were, and fit in 2-3 tiers. (Right now I'd say you could split the cast up into 3-4 meaningful tiers, with a very small potential for it to reach a maximum of 5 distinguishable tiers... probably 4 at most).

 

[Yokoblue]

I love how everybody think that custom move will magically put every low tier and mid tier to the high tier level and that nobody form the high tier will become OP. Every tier list will be only 2-3 MAXIMUM tiers and every character will be viable. If you think that its beautifull that we can't really say "These are bottom 10" and be sure about it... be ready because custom move will bring some characters to the pit of bottom 10 to never come back...

THE FOLLOWING IS MY OPINION FROM PERSONNAL OBSERVATIONS:
I think a good part of the cast will get better... but I also think that a good part of the cast will become godlike.. I predict that only a couple of characters will be high tier because they will be MUCH better than the other part of the cast and invalidate them. I think that those characters will become way more problematic than Diddy Kong is right now. I've seen custom moves combos and its not beautiful (IMO).

You hate that Sheik can combo you 5-6 hit in a row and do 30 damages ? Just you wait until half the cast can do that... and the other half will probably be able to kill you around 70% with certain setup that aren't that hard to get. So you think "we will ban customs that make things OP". Yea because we totally banned Meta Knight in brawl and we never saw him rise again... I'm sadly in the camp that is afraid of the custom moves... I don't want the game to become hyper combo heavy and AT heavy (because we will find thousand new AT with customs, we already found a ****load). If I wanted to play that game, I would play Project M.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

I love how everybody think that custom move will magically put every low tier and mid tier to the high tier level and that nobody form the high tier will become OP. Every tier list will be only 2-3 MAXIMUM tiers and every character will be viable. If you think that its beautifull that we can't really say "These are bottom 10" and be sure about it... be ready because custom move will bring some characters to the pit of bottom 10 to never come back...

THE FOLLOWING IS MY OPINION FROM PERSONNAL OBSERVATIONS:
I think a good part of the cast will get better... but I also think that a good part of the cast will become godlike.. I predict that only a couple of characters will be high tier because they will be MUCH better than the other part of the cast and invalidate them. I think that those characters will become way more problematic than Diddy Kong is right now. I've seen custom moves combos and its not beautiful (IMO).

You hate that Sheik can combo you 5-6 hit in a row and do 30 damages ? Just you wait until half the cast can do that... and the other half will probably be able to kill you around 70% with certain setup that aren't that hard to get. So you think "we will ban customs that make things OP". Yea because we totally banned Meta Knight in brawl and we never saw him rise again... I'm sadly in the camp that is afraid of the custom moves... I don't want the game to become hyper combo heavy and AT heavy (because we will find thousand new AT with customs, we already found a ****load). If I wanted to play that game, I would play Project M.

I don't want there to be too high of a focus on technical skill and button inputs (which cause unnecessary physical barriers), but if it's just ATs here and there I don't mind. Maybe there will be a few characters that can abuse some ATs very often, well there will be plenty of characters that don't require a lot of technical skill and you can still enjoy the game focusing on other things. As long as there is nothing as frequent and necessary as L-Cancel and wavedashing, I think Smash 4 with customs will still be far from PM/Melee.

 

[Pazx]

I love how everybody think that custom move will magically put every low tier and mid tier to the high tier level and that nobody form the high tier will become OP. Every tier list will be only 2-3 MAXIMUM tiers and every character will be viable. If you think that its beautifull that we can't really say "These are bottom 10" and be sure about it... be ready because custom move will bring some characters to the pit of bottom 10 to never come back...

THE FOLLOWING IS MY OPINION FROM PERSONNAL OBSERVATIONS:
I think a good part of the cast will get better... but I also think that a good part of the cast will become godlike.. I predict that only a couple of characters will be high tier because they will be MUCH better than the other part of the cast and invalidate them. I think that those characters will become way more problematic than Diddy Kong is right now. I've seen custom moves combos and its not beautiful (IMO).

You hate that Sheik can combo you 5-6 hit in a row and do 30 damages ? Just you wait until half the cast can do that... and the other half will probably be able to kill you around 70% with certain setup that aren't that hard to get. So you think "we will ban customs that make things OP". Yea because we totally banned Meta Knight in brawl and we never saw him rise again... I'm sadly in the camp that is afraid of the custom moves... I don't want the game to become hyper combo heavy and AT heavy (because we will find thousand new AT with customs, we already found a ****load). If I wanted to play that game, I would play Project M.

Please name all the customs that you have observed to have a detrimental effect on the game or you deem overpowered, problematic, overly combo-oriented (which isn't a bad thing) or AT heavy (also not a bad thing necessarily). Don't fear-monger without backup for your statements.

It's also worth noting that if there are any customs you deem problematic for their combo ability they usually have a significant tradeoff. A lot of characters have the choice between a powerful combo finisher/up B OoS or an improved recovery, there are two sides to every coin.

 

[Yokoblue]

Please name all the customs that you have observed to have a detrimental effect on the game or you deem overpowered, problematic, overly combo-oriented (which isn't a bad thing) or AT heavy (also not a bad thing necessarily). Don't fear-monger without backup for your statements.

It's also worth noting that if there are any customs you deem problematic for their combo ability they usually have a significant tradeoff. A lot of characters have the choice between a powerful combo finisher/up B OoS or an improved recovery, there are two sides to every coin.

I never said they were bad things in general, I said that a lot of thing I/ME find bad for the game. I love the fact that smash 4 is less tech advanced and more about reading your opponent etc so being more combo heavy would sucks for me personally.

We already know that there is a glitch to be permanent LightWeight with palutena, we already know that some custom moves are really good without even seeing them in competitive settings. Good to the point of being Overpowered or problematic... I cant be the judge of that and you know it. You can already see in this very thread people saying "We know that some move look really really good but try to play against them..." timber counter being an example.

I'm not saying the move will be OP or anything... What I fear the most is what is YET to be discovered and what really good players will do with them... Since the custom metagame is not AT ALL discovered, we know that we will find things that are really really good just like we found things in the normal metagame that completely changed the metagame (diddy kong wasnt considered top tier before Down Throw up air became mainstream). In the standard meta game, we already have some characters with KO confirm on hit, I think we will get a lot more of those but at earlier percents (See Marth/Lucina post a few pages ago about a true combo at 60-70% that kill with a custom move follow up)

I don't want there to be too high of a focus on technical skill and button inputs (which cause unnecessary physical barriers), but if it's just ATs here and there I don't mind. Maybe there will be a few characters that can abuse some ATs very often, well there will be plenty of characters that don't require a lot of technical skill and you can still enjoy the game focusing on other things. As long as there is nothing as frequent and necessary as L-Cancel and wavedashing, I think Smash 4 with customs will still be far from PM/Melee.

I think a couple of AT per character isnt bad at all and its good actually. I mean, I was super pissed when they removed bomb lag cancel from ToonLink with the patch.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I love how everybody think that custom move will magically put every low tier and mid tier to the high tier level and that nobody form the high tier will become OP. Every tier list will be only 2-3 MAXIMUM tiers and every character will be viable. If you think that its beautifull that we can't really say "These are bottom 10" and be sure about it... be ready because custom move will bring some characters to the pit of bottom 10 to never come back...

THE FOLLOWING IS MY OPINION FROM PERSONNAL OBSERVATIONS:
I think a good part of the cast will get better... but I also think that a good part of the cast will become godlike.. I predict that only a couple of characters will be high tier because they will be MUCH better than the other part of the cast and invalidate them. I think that those characters will become way more problematic than Diddy Kong is right now. I've seen custom moves combos and its not beautiful (IMO).

You hate that Sheik can combo you 5-6 hit in a row and do 30 damages ? Just you wait until half the cast can do that... and the other half will probably be able to kill you around 70% with certain setup that aren't that hard to get. So you think "we will ban customs that make things OP". Yea because we totally banned Meta Knight in brawl and we never saw him rise again... I'm sadly in the camp that is afraid of the custom moves... I don't want the game to become hyper combo heavy and AT heavy (because we will find thousand new AT with customs, we already found a ****load). If I wanted to play that game, I would play Project M.

we actually covered this topic belive it or not a while back.

universally all the high teirs custom moves have been either worse than the orriginal or don't help them we disscussed most of them already tbh.

*edit*
also to note samus's slip bomb. i prsonally don't care to use it but it sure has an interesting effect off stage. and by that i mean it spikes. no low recovery for u.

 

[Yokoblue]

we actually covered this topic belive it or not a while back.

universally all the high teirs custom moves have been either worse than the orriginal or don't help them we disscussed most of them already tbh.

Yes I saw, i probably read every post in this thread since it was created.
I did the mistake of implying it would be a high tier getting the "Top or godlike" rank but I think it could be a Mid or low tier getting there as well (Palutena that get a massive buff for example or Ike...). Some things are small and could be huge in the metagame and we might not realize it like..... Rosaluma no longer have to approach with Long range starbits... things like that that could have huge impact...

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'm not saying the character will be OP or anything... What I fear the most is what is YET to be discovered and what really good players will do with them... Since the [...] metagame is not AT ALL discovered, we know that we will find things that are really really good just like we found things in the normal metagame that completely changed the metagame (diddy kong wasnt considered top tier before Down Throw up air became mainstream).

You're right.

Let's preemptively ban Mewtwo before he runs a chance of ruining the metagame.


Seriously, this is not good argumentation. Yeah, it's a relatively undiscovered meta. But there's good reason to believe that it's a more balanced one. And you know what? Banning a single custom move is not a huge deal. You're not removing an entire character. The line for "this is really degenerate and broken, let's get rid of it" can be drawn a little fuzzier and a little further away from ST Akuma. Maybe after a few months of play we find out, "Christ, there is just no way we can work with Counter Tree". Okay, well, Villager is still there. He's still a solid character with good options. He just can't use this one particular one.

Hell, you know what the coolest thing about customs is? Now we can actually ban special moves! Before, there was no way to say, "Metaknight, you can't use Tornado". Now, if it were actually a problem, we could hypothetically say, "Sheik, you have to select a different DownB". We shouldn't, but we could. That's actually pretty darn cool.

 

[Yokoblue]

You're right.

Let's preemptively ban Mewtwo before he runs a chance of ruining the metagame.


Seriously, this is not good argumentation. Yeah, it's a relatively undiscovered meta. But there's good reason to believe that it's a more balanced one. And you know what? Banning a single custom move is not a huge deal. You're not removing an entire character. The line for "this is really degenerate and broken, let's get rid of it" can be drawn a little fuzzier and a little further away from ST Akuma. Maybe after a few months of play we find out, "Christ, there is just no way we can work with Counter Tree". Okay, well, Villager is still there. He's still a solid character with good options. He just can't use this one particular one.

Hell, you know what the coolest thing about customs is? Now we can actually ban special moves! Before, there was no way to say, "Metaknight, you can't use Tornado". Now, if it were actually a problem, we could hypothetically say, "Sheik, you have to select a different DownB". We shouldn't, but we could. That's actually pretty darn cool.

I only said I was against because of the thing that might come... I'm not saying to never allow them and not try them... I'm actually for trying the custom moves... First part of my post was aimed at the fact that everybody thinks the whole metagame will be more balanced. I think we dont know AT ALL. You say that I cant "request a ban in advance" but you guys are doing the opposite by saying that everything will go well.

The ban part will obviously never pass since MK was never banned. How OP would a custom need to be for it to be banned.

Just to make sure everybody get it: I'm against custom move, but im not against trying them. Its more of a "Get down your high horse, this thing might not be cool in the end"

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Speaking of Mewtwo, I'm curious as too what his customs will be......

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Any ganondorf players here with an opinion on the Toon Link matchup?

 

[RanserSSF4]

personally, i'm glad that custom tournaments are coming back. it's one of the main reasons i love the competitive aspect of smash 4. don't get me wrong, i enjoy watching default smash 4 matches most of the time, but customs just make the game more interesting to play and watch!

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

A glitch for permanent lightweight with Palutena? I haven't heard of such a glitch. There is a glitch to use Lightweight when it's in cooldown, but it wears off and has to be re-applied which requires going to a platform. The way it works is that you interrupt dropping through a platform with using Lightweight. The game's input leniency notices that you didn't "really" want to drop through since you hit B soon after hitting down, but for some reason, that input leniency case doesn't check if Lightweight is in cooldown and just lets you use it again. This is actually a really picky input (so it's obnoxious for the Palutena to do repeatedly), and the advantage is honestly fairly mild (I'm really not sold that even with this Lightweight is better than having a counter to be honest).

The Marth/Lucina fthrow to Crescent Slash combo is pretty good but not as good as you think. My testing with it suggests that, as a general rule, if the opponent is at a high enough percent to die they're also at a high enough percent to DI out of the combo, and it's only going to kill at 60-70% in the first place if you connect with Crescent Slash off-stage which is non-trivial to set up and incredibly risky regardless. It should also be noted that carrying Crescent Slash severely weakens Marth/Lucina's recovery and drastically changes their up-B OoS game (it has incredible range but hits in a very weak and usually unsafe on hit way if the opponent is close). Crescent Slash is a huge trade-off; I think Marth and Lucina are a lot more fun with it, but I'd be slow to say they're clearly correct moves to bring let alone overpowered in any way.

To be straight about it, a lot of us have been playing with customs a lot. You are right that they matter and matter a lot. With Rosalina I feel completely different about the neutral with Shooting Star Bit and Luma Warp. To keep this way more brief than I originally intended, I can deal with fast characters better and can do smarter, more dynamic things with my Luma control. The trade-off I accept is that a lot of characters, mostly characters who were otherwise "easy" for Rosalina, can deal with my Luma a lot better. This has a net effect of leveling my match-up spread while also making the game more interesting and fun to play. This isn't theory fighter. This is me speaking from my experience as a Rosalina main who has played hundreds if not thousands of matches with her exploring every custom variation. Everyone else who has played extensively with customs is telling a similar story with their own characters. It's true that of course the meta has lots of room to grow and that we could be blindsided by some horrible, abusive thing that will shatter the balance. That would, however, be contrary to everything we do know right now; our experience with customs is sufficient to take it at face value that they really do improve the balance a lot and to only suspect otherwise when actual evidence emerges to suggest that. I understand being skeptical since it sounds too good to be true, but it really is a pretty fantastic system.

To be clear about the effect on the tier list, my impression on it is that customs mostly compress the tier list but keep the shape pretty similar. Some characters with especially good customs make strong jumps and heavies drift up as a group but for the most part characters seem to stay in the same vague neighborhood in terms of overall rank among the cast; it's mostly that the match-ups are closer. That tightening of the list makes it seem a lot more vague which has created a bit of hysteria among some of "everyone is top 10/top 15", but it's more like "if your character was distinctly not in top 10/15 it probably still isn't but can probably compete with top 10/15 in a more realistic way with customs". The confusion, of course, is only amplified by the fact that the game as a whole is pretty new and to be real no one can really make a good tier list right now with or without customs...

 

[sunset_raven]

I'm pretty hopeful with the meta with customs on.

I do know that Rosa, Sonic and perhaps Sheik will benefit from customs, but not at the same level as Palutena, Bowser, DK, as an example.

Here's to hopping that if jank is found it isn't broken OP or that Nintendo keeps updating the game to fix it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Any ganondorf players here with an opinion on the Toon Link matchup?

It's in Ganon's favor 55/45. Better midrange, better juggles and edgeguards. Just generally speaking the risk/reward favors him more than it does TL, especially since TL doesn't get a lot of damage from his grab (he has a slightly above average KO B-throw and that's about it).

 

[Pazx]

I never said they were bad things in general, I said that a lot of thing I/ME find bad for the game. I love the fact that smash 4 is less tech advanced and more about reading your opponent etc so being more combo heavy would sucks for me personally.

We already know that there is a glitch to be permanent LightWeight with palutena, we already know that some custom moves are really good without even seeing them in competitive settings. Good to the point of being Overpowered or problematic... I cant be the judge of that and you know it. You can already see in this very thread people saying "We know that some move look really really good but try to play against them..." timber counter being an example.

I'm not saying the move will be OP or anything... What I fear the most is what is YET to be discovered and what really good players will do with them... Since the custom metagame is not AT ALL discovered, we know that we will find things that are really really good just like we found things in the normal metagame that completely changed the metagame (diddy kong wasnt considered top tier before Down Throw up air became mainstream). In the standard meta game, we already have some characters with KO confirm on hit, I think we will get a lot more of those but at earlier percents (See Marth/Lucina post a few pages ago about a true combo at 60-70% that kill with a custom move follow up)





I think a couple of AT per character isnt bad at all and its good actually. I mean, I was super pissed when they removed bomb lag cancel from ToonLink with the patch.

I'm not coming out and saying "hey you're wrong", I'm asking you to back up your statement. If you have any very specific worries about customs you should share them, but it's incredibly unlikely that custom moves will have the effect you think they may. You shouldn't treat custom moves as a big scary unknown that could potentially be game breaking (spoiler: they're not), you should either play with them or take the word of those who have, because these informed voices are the ones that are saying "I've tried it, I like this, they improve the game, they are not OP". My main qualm with your post/attitude is that you said "this is from my own personal observations" and provided to make some bold predictions when it's clear you haven't actually played much with custom moves turned on. We can't be afraid of what we haven't discovered yet.

Also grab release -> crescent is pretty cool.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

(I'm really not sold that even with this Lightweight is better than having a counter to be honest).

Bruh are you serious? The mobility buff she's granted while Lightweight is active is significant and gives her access to kill combos around 70%. Just... look at this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvHef5L6MIg

Even with the brief debuff period (which is mitigated by Super Speed and Jump Glide), Lightweight is still a far better move than Counter could ever hope to be. There's really no reason to choose Counter over Lightweight unless you just REALLY want a counter.

 

[Deleted member]

Speaking of Mewtwo, I'm curious as too what his customs will be......

They'd better come already unlocked when you download him.

 

[Antonykun]

Bruh are you serious? The mobility buff she's granted while Lightweight is active is significant and gives her access to kill combos around 70%. Just... look at this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvHef5L6MIg

Even with the brief debuff period (which is mitigated by Super Speed and Jump Glide), Lightweight is still a far better move than Counter could ever hope to be. There's really no reason to choose Counter over Lightweight unless you just REALLY want a counter.

Even then her counter is awful. Has Ike levels of start up and doesn't stay as long.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

It's in Ganon's favor 55/45. Better midrange, better juggles and edgeguards. Just generally speaking the risk/reward favors him more than it does TL, especially since TL doesn't get a lot of damage from his grab (he has a slightly above average KO B-throw and that's about it).

Okay, anyone else?

 

[Smog Frog]

mewtwo has 2 great specials in shadow ball and teleport(2 good specials suffice:look at diddy kong), and with the nerf to sdi, his normals are already ALOT better: nair does insane damage, fthrow is lol, and he finally has access to usmash as a kill move. this is assuming he keeps his melee moveset ofcourse, but either way mewtwo's going to be better than he was in melee.

 

[Pazzo.]

Speaking of Mewtwo, I'm curious as too what his customs will be......

Or even his specials.

Okay, anyone else?

I agree, but I'd even go as far with 60/40.

Is all hope lost for Marth? Is his only crippling weakness the length endlag on his moves? Poor guy, he's so fun but it seems he's not worth bothering with and will take more work than most other characters, and the numbers support those feels.

I actually really like Marth in SSB4.

He's no Brawl or Melee incarnation, but he still has options with his rage and tipper. He's also not going to be easy to play, but someone with enough time will pull off some neat stuff with him.

 

[Nabbitnator]

@Makorel @[USE=95084]Conda[/USER] JohnNumbers did it on 3DS I believe and ported the sets over. I may have misinterpreted, it's possible he unlocked them on a Wii U and used a 3ds to put them on other Wii Us before the next tournament. Personally, I've just been leaving smash tour running in the background whenever I'm home because I can't be bothered grinding, if I'm the first to get em all I'll do setups for my region. I think it's probably easier to unlock on a 3DS although if you want to have them all on a Wii U crazy orders and all star supplemented by AFK Smash Tour is a good way to go about it.

@ Nabbitnator what's the 3DS glitch?

Its more of an exploit. You just go to classic mode and whn the slot starts let It roll first to see the maxium customs you can get then press home the second time aroundnwhen you are near x2 or x 3 customs, you hold a the next time you exit out the home menu. You can unlock about 3 to 6 customs each playthrough.

 

[Nobie]

There's no indication that Mewtwo will keep any of its moves, or even its animations, so I think it's a bit futile to speculate. Heck, Teleport hasn't been a Mewtwo technique since Gold/Silver/Crystal so even that might disappear.

However, I'm going to go against what I just said anyway and assume that Mewtwo will remain as a throw-based powerhouse. If Mewtwo ends up with both a Ness-class back throw (Mewtwo's will likely less powerful) and a ROB-class up throw (Mewtwo's will probably be #1 just like Melee), in a less combo-heavy game that could be an incredibly big deal.

Here's a question for everyone: how much do you think Smash 4 intentionally utilizes rage as a balancing factor, or even a way to define character play styles?

Yesterday on Team Spooky, the commentators were talking about how the knockback increase from rage is a significant problem for Sheik because while it makes her KO moves more potent it also ruins her combos. Sheik, with her awesome rolls and speed and lack of commitment, is hard to hit and punish, but when she does get hit it makes her suffer in more ways than one.

In contrast, I've been trying out Dedede more lately, and he seems to thrive with Rage in effect like no other character (except maybe Lucario) does. Other Heavies benefit greatly from Rage, of course, but Dedede has the best overall survivability out of all of them between the multiple jumps, and the ridiculously high recovery on Up B. On top of living much longer than the average character, Rage makes his attacks transition in terms of function. At low damage, Dedede is sort of like a stocky swordsman, throwing out giant, menacing hitboxes that poke or just take up a ton of space, but when Dedede is at higher damage it's like all of those moves unlock their true potential. F-tilt KOs. Jab combo finisher KOs. Down Tilt KOs. Gordo KOs. Neutral Air KOs. Up and Down Smash, though decent normally, become legitimately scary when Dedede is at 100-150%.

While that's somewhat similar to how Ganondorf functions, it's not quite the same, because I think Ganondorf's moves transition more comfortably from big damage to KO power without Ganondorf necessarily needing a Rage boost. Dedede has some strong attacks at 0% of course, like his infamous F-smash, but he actually feels like he's designed to soak up damage and benefit from it by having his attacks change their overall purpose.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Smash has never completely revamped a character. It values consistency. (See: Ganondorf) Mewtwo having the same moveset is a VERY safe assumption, plus it's less work.

As for Teleport, Pika still has Skull Bash despite only learning the move in gen 1.

 

[HeroMystic]

Rage is an issue for everyone that relies on combos to increase damage. It's not just Sheik.

 

[Project Quarantine]

Smash has never completely revamped a character. It values consistency. (See: Ganondorf) Mewtwo having the same moveset is a VERY safe assumption, plus it's less work.

As for Teleport, Pika still has Skull Bash despite only learning the move in gen 1.

They revamped bowser (bar special attacks) for smash 4. I don't know if it's safe to call that a full "revamp" though.

 

[Antonykun]

Well I was going to counter those points on the Robin guide but @Pacman9 and @Raziek pretty much said all I wanted to say (thanks guys).

I want to use my MU chart to try to explain why there are so little Villager mains. Villager non trivially loses to 2 of the most powerful characters right now (Sheik Sonic) and also non trivially loses to Yoshi and Fox who everyone agrees are powerful too.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Rage is an issue for everyone that relies on combos to increase damage. It's not just Sheik.

As it should.
Given the characters that "need" it aren't combo characters.

 

[Radical Larry]

Any ganondorf players here with an opinion on the Toon Link matchup?

Ganondorf is actually decent against Toon Link; while Toon Link has the aerial prowess, he lacks sufficient ground game, something that Ganondorf will dominate against him. Toon Link has great camping games, but a very good and safe Ganondorf will take advantage of that and get him. Using F-Air or B-Air with a Ganondorf that is near the stage is extremely dangerous when there's the fact that Ganondorf's Flame Choke has transcending priority over Toon Link's aerials; the only aerials safe against it are N-Air or Z-Air.

Yes, Toon Link has the gimping prowess, but Ganondorf has an equal gimping, even a KO prowess against him, so that evens it quite out. With meteors, Ganondorf has the overall better options, with D-Air and Wizard's Foot both being very powerful meteor attacks, and both of them having a very powerful sourspot and late hit respectively.

Ganondorf's aerial game and Toon Link's are great, especially against each other, so expect one to be sent flying, and the other to be sent flying as well as an end result. But what seals this is the fact that the late Wizard's Foot aerial will indeed KO Toon Link at low percentages at high altitudes, but it's also dangerous to use as Toon Link's U-Air will also KO the same way, so their aerial game evens out.

Combo game is equal with them, but the way they rack up damage is the reason I favor Ganondorf in that area, because Ganondorf can D-Tilt juggle (albeit twice or three times) and end with F-Tilt, racking an immense amount of damage compared to Toon Link doing 7-8 U-Tilts and doing the same.

So with the Match-up, from experience and watching, Ganondorf has a 60:40 winning MU against Toon Link. While Toon Link has great aerial prowess and an amazing camping game, Ganondorf has the far better ground game and an aerial game that is much safer, especially when it comes to the power and knockback of attacks. Toon Link is much faster, but his attacks are quite weak and actually slow for his weight class, something Ganondorf is very polar opposite of.
Just my opinion and take on the matter.

Well I was going to counter those points on the Robin guide but @Pacman9 and @Raziek pretty much said all I wanted to say (thanks guys).

I want to use my MU chart to try to explain why there are so little Villager mains. Villager non trivially loses to 2 of the most powerful characters right now (Sheik Sonic) and also non trivially loses to Yoshi and Fox who everyone agrees are powerful too.

Yeah, I do not see why people say Fox is good; he racks up damage well, yes, but he has very, very little KO options, and very, very weak attacks in terms of knockback. He has the weakest specials in the game and some of the weakest normals as well, but I guess we can attribute his speed and capability of racking damage fast, as well as his U-Smash being powerful still, that he's good. However, Fox is nowhere near the top, because you need to hit with the tilt of U-Smash for it to KO around 110%.

I use Fox to the best of my ability, and at the end of the day, he is quite the average viable character, ranging around top 30.

Now, for why there are so little Villager mains, it's because people don't like the very wonky moveset that Villager has; while useful, it's the most unusual and flashy of movesets in the series. I'm not saying Villager is bad; I honestly think Villager is good and viable, around the top 15 characters.

 

[Kofu]

In contrast, I've been trying out Dedede more lately, and he seems to thrive with Rage in effect like no other character (except maybe Lucario) does. Other Heavies benefit greatly from Rage, of course, but Dedede has the best overall survivability out of all of them between the multiple jumps, and the ridiculously high recovery on Up B. On top of living much longer than the average character, Rage makes his attacks transition in terms of function. At low damage, Dedede is sort of like a stocky swordsman, throwing out giant, menacing hitboxes that poke or just take up a ton of space, but when Dedede is at higher damage it's like all of those moves unlock their true potential. F-tilt KOs. Jab combo finisher KOs. Down Tilt KOs. Gordo KOs. Neutral Air KOs. Up and Down Smash, though decent normally, become legitimately scary when Dedede is at 100-150%.

This is mostly true, but Dedede loses a lot of his combo ability, especially from his DThrow, as his rage builds. He's not a huge fan of having to start racking damage on an opponent when he's already in rage (although he hopefully has a stock lead at that point so it's not all bad).

 

[HeroMystic]

As it should.
Given the characters that "need" it aren't combo characters.

Everyone in this game has combos. I wouldn't be so quick to say non-combo oriented characters benefit from rage without losing some advantages.