Character Competitive Impressions

[Ffamran]

Why am I sensing a pattern here?

And what pattern is this?

 

[Raziek]

I'm no authority on this topic or anything, but I will point out that Villager having a minor advantage over Robin contradicts what I've read on Zaradriel's guide for Robin. Here's what he says on the subject

What do you think?

There's so much wrong with this guide. I'll try to counter all those points tomorrow morning or afternoon.

Gonna have to agree with Antony. There's a lot wrong with that short write up.

Most notably it distills the matchup to only a single scenario, ignoring the others in which Villager has the advantage. Yes, Robin can deal with ledge play by Thoron-camping, and yes, Thoron is an absolute workhorse in that matchup, but there's almost no acknowledgement of Villager's ability to counterplay that, nor any discussion of the extremely important off-stage game, where Villager has a substantial advantage.

My personal number is even, but I wouldn't disagree with slight adv. Villager.

IIRC they try to not talk about match-up specific stuff in this thread though, as that leads to massive derails.

 

[NAKAT]

I wanted to lay this out for myself cuz yall were rude and never did.

1. ZeRo
2. XFIRE Dabuz
3. LLL Mr. R
4. 6WX
5. DtN | Nietono
5. MVG | Mew2King
7. Abadango
7. CT | MVD
9. AeroLink
9. LoF NAKAT
9. Nairo
9. VGBC | aMSa
13. Boreal_Ally
13. DA Jtails
13. FALSE
13. NinjaLink

I like this game!!! Wow at MVD and Abadango. I suppose you could be worried about the Diddy Kongs sprinkled in there, but I see several players and character between each of them. What do we think of Olimar in 2nd place...? Such a strange secondary. Good spread overall and a hopeful indication of this game's balance. I'm very happy with it.

I went more Ness than Fox. I used them both.

 

[Sinister Slush]

My big question to nakat is why did he quote my posts backwards and in three different posts instead of just one.
The namesearch is real tho

 

[Kofu]

*cough* other than a up b read *cough*

Assuming you're referring to the "doesn't have the abilities to turn a match around" sure, I'll give you that. At least if said read kills. Heavies are heavily momentum based characters that can seal a stock once things are going their way. Zelda has a few similar tools but lacks the meaty hitboxes that make keeping control easier.

Farore's Wind is dangerous but tends to be telegraphed. It's better used as a punish or trap similar to Samus's Charge Shot.

 

[Pazx]

http://www.twitch.tv/teamsp00ky

customs are LIVE (probably)

 

[Nu~]

And what pattern is this?

Oh, my bad. I may have been a little vague.
I mean that, someone finds out from some unanimous source that X player has dropped Y character, just for said player to prove otherwise

 

[Ffamran]

Oh, my bad. I may have been a little vague.
I mean that, someone finds out from some unanimous source that X player has dropped Y character, just for said player to prove otherwise

Oh, so, NAKAT's staying with Pikachu, Fox, and Ness, ESAM.... I have no idea, Zero's probably staying with Diddy and Shulk and Captain Falcon, blah blah blah. It's not really a big deal, personally, unless it's the only rep people know, but that's not likely considering there's tons of people out there and who knows, there could be some badass playing as... Bowser right now.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

lol that wii fit edge gaurd set

 

[HeavyLobster]

Assuming you're referring to the "doesn't have the abilities to turn a match around" sure, I'll give you that. At least if said read kills. Heavies are heavily momentum based characters that can seal a stock once things are going their way. Zelda has a few similar tools but lacks the meaty hitboxes that make keeping control easier.

Farore's Wind is dangerous but tends to be telegraphed. It's better used as a punish or trap similar to Samus's Charge Shot.

Yeah, the one area Zelda is deficient compared to heavies is the fact that she isn't all that great at stringing strong hits together. Someone like Ganon can rack up 40-60% in a row without too much trouble, but Zelda doesn't do that too well. None of Ganon's strong hits are quite as quick as Lightning Kick, but he can string them together decently well and go from 0-to-death in a few reads, while Zelda seems to reset after getting a good read, with a few exceptions. Zelda feels like a Brawl character to me, as she seems to reset to neutral after landing a hit instead of having momentum carry over. On the other hand, Farore's Wind is quite good at keeping foes trying to chase her down honest provided she has a bit of room, so it can go both ways to some extent, though not enough for her not to be at a general disadvantage in this respect.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Top 15 with customs

excuse me but you're missing about 20 more characters in that top 15.

By the way how are we going to balance customs ourselves in accordance with the rest of the cast?

 

[incrediblej]

The problem I see with xustoms being alowed is that there are multiple combinations and can vary and there would never be a solid tier list unless people who play the same character try every combination enough to declare one combination the best and then would that be the one used for customs allowed tier lists

 

[HeroMystic]

I just realized how dynamically Mario changes with customs on.

With default, he stays as the high attack speed character we all know, with a middle tier recovery, and a pretty good edgeguard game.

With Fast Fireball, Gust Cape, Super Jump, and HP FLUDD he becomes an edgeguard machine that can go really deep, with a strong lengthy recovery.

With Explosive Jump Punch, Shocking Cape, and Scalding FLUDD, he becomes a monster on-stage with an extremely powerful kill move but ends up having one of the worst recoveries in the game.

I really really hope players show Mario on stream this week.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

The problem I see with xustoms being alowed is that there are multiple combinations and can vary and there would never be a solid tier list unless people who play the same character try every combination enough to declare one combination the best and then would that be the one used for customs allowed tier lists

Welcome to metagame, enjoy your stay.

Seriously, I don't see the issue. Optimal custom sets may take a while to figure out, so what? Melee is showing that it's possible for entire characters to be thrust into the spotlight after being written off, this seems tame in comparison.

 

[Yonder]

All right i made an MU chart for Villager yesterday,posted it on the Villager sub forum, but I got very few discussion. Seeing as you guys probably have some idea of how you guys are aware of Villager vs your main soo lets see if we can learn something by me posting MU chart.

Somethings to note:
I tried making this super conservative, as I often see people complaining that their character loses to* insert top tier here* (not you guys though you're all awesome)
All of Villager's MUs are technically winnable but god are the +2/3 stacked against you

(Major Disadvantage 35:65 or less)

(Disadvantage 40:60)

(Minor Disadvantage 45:55)

(Arbitrarily Close To Even 50:50)
/ /
(Minor Advantage 55:45)

(Advantage 60:40)

(Major Advantage 65:35 or more)


(Not Sure)


DK might be weird being a heavy that "beats" DK outranges Villager and has just enough speed to dance with his b-airs that snuff's villager's everything

I'd throw Luigi in the 60:40, he can't answer any of Villager's projectiles asides from nair clanking against slingshot. All the characters listed as minor advg at least have a way to answer gyroids [Wario and Falcon struggle too, but they can get in with mobility]Also gets easily gimped offstage and by bowling ball onstage. Fireball is snuffed by trees and pockets. Both have troubles landing kill moves though cept Luigi does it out of a D throw and Villager does it out of a D smash? [not super knowledgeable on Villager]. Only + for Luigi is that Villager isn't terribly hard to combo once in.

I agree with DK though, I like using him over Luigi here. Funny, but his bair does wonders here like you said.

 

[Balgorxz]

custom ganon 20XX is the future

 

[thehard]

Hey, another cross-post from me: I wrote a little something on customs and banning and metagames and blah blah blah: http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2v9uyf/handling_custom_moves_in_tournament_play/

Please give it a read!

 

[Yonder]

I've been siliently editing for a while on microsoft word my own little tier list. I'll post what I have so far.

Top tier:
High tier:
Upper Middle tier:

Lower Middle tier:

Low tier: [Default]
Not ranked: [Customs]



Of note:

may be surpassed in the future by or if his recovery is exploited enough. Or his HOO HAA throw gets patched That's all it'll take.

Brawler edges Falcon out just because Shotput basically.

Villager is tricky, great, and I can see him replacing Pikachu's position on my list. Underrated.

Lucario is still potent. Aura is like having Marth's tippers on all the time. And he has the mobility and spotdodges to avoid attacks for a while.

Duck Hunt I think will be more threatening when his projectiles are exploited to the max. MVD has shown us a good Duck Hunt

ROB is underrated, amazing projectiles, weight, usable recovery, amazing Up air and D throw to set it up at times, and solid kill power. Some bad matchups like Fox [reflector + jab lock] holds him back though.

Pit and Lame Pit are the jack of all trades [sides amazing recovery] and master of none. I don't see them moving at all.

Shulk is going to wreck face soon with the best overall range in game and proper monado art use. I expect high tier soon.

Bowser is getting a lot of unnecessary criticism. He has awesome ground mobility, takes forever to kill, fair is fantastic offstage, and bair doing 19% is no joke when it comes out fast with range. Just don't use him against characters like Sheik, ZSS, where he can get blitzed with speed.

Mac's recovery really IS that crippling. He has to approach too with his lack of range. Throws are underwhelming and only nair is pretty much usable in the air.

Game and Watch: Fantastic edgeguarder. Bucket great in certain matchups[Lucario, Ness] but doesn't hit hard and dies too quickly. Potential though. At least bacon is usable in this game.

Lucina is the most pointless character in this game, sadly. No reason to use her over Marth. Even though Marth was nerfed at least tippers are still scary.

Not ranking Olimar. I know he's better on the Wii U version due to stupid AI on the 3DS version, the only version I have. Otherwise I'd put him last.

No customs were taken into account during this tier list. Otherwise everyone "would be top 15." lol.

There are no bottom tiers in this game.

Oops, I forgot [and so did everyone else apparently] that I didn't place Zelda or Kirby. Edited them in there.

 

[Conda]

When discussing characters we feel aren't too strong, we have to take into account if we feel those limitations are due to their normal attacks and mobility and such (crucial issues that Samus deals with, for example), OR if we feel their weaknesses lie in their lackluster specials and could be potentially solved with custom moves.

ie if Ness had a custom up B that was a normal vertical recovery (no PKT controlling aspect), he'd become much more viable because the main thing that hurts him is the same thing that has - easy to gimp.

 

[Project Quarantine]

There's so much wrong with this guide. I'll try to counter all those points tomorrow morning or afternoon.

It seems as though when the guy wrote his opinion on how Villager loses to Robin, he realized in the process that villager can barrage with Lloyds, Fairs and Nairs (and jab). Thoron in itself isn't going to help when being rushed down keeps you from charging. On top of that, Robin has his zoning tools (arc fire) shut down by pocket. Because of this realization, the writer of the guide would probably back down as he began to do even while writing it.

 

[Ffamran]

custom ganon 20XX is the future

That would not only be the stupidest thing ever, but the funniest and most testosterone-filled thing ever!

Please, we need a Ganondorf-only tournament!

 

[Cenizas]

Honestly, my hopes for Mewtwo being good aren't that high. It may just be my Zelda salt/intuition kicking in, but after she's been in three games not being too spectacular and getting an overall nerf from Brawl to Smash 4, then getting nerfed again 1.0.4., one of the worst characters in Melee getting made into a decent character, especially after being M.I.A. from the next installment just seems too farfetched for my liking. Gonna hope I'm wrong though.

 

[thehard]

Zelda wasn't nerfed in 1.0.4. She only got a u-tilt buff.

 

[dean.]

That would not only be the stupidest thing ever, but the funniest and most testosterone-filled thing ever!

Please, we need a Ganondorf-only tournament!

We used to have those in Australia (Queensland) for Brawl. Now it's Melee with Donkey Kong.

 

[Saturn_]

That would not only be the stupidest thing ever, but the funniest and most testosterone-filled thing ever!

Please, we need a Ganondorf-only tournament!

It would be like the Do You Fox Wit It tournament, only it would be called "So You Think You Can Ganondorf?"

 

[Lavani]

Zelda wasn't nerfed in 1.0.4. She only got a u-tilt buff.

Her pivot grab range was nerfed too, which is largely more significant than the +0.5% damage her utilt got.

 

[Project Quarantine]

I'd throw Luigi in the 60:40

I second this. Even if luigi gets in on villager's camping and spacing, nair comes out and shuts it down, or clanks and gives villager an opportunity to run. Rinse and repeat.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

When discussing characters we feel aren't too strong, we have to take into account if we feel those limitations are due to their normal attacks and mobility and such (crucial issues that Samus deals with, for example), OR if we feel their weaknesses lie in their lackluster specials and could be potentially solved with custom moves.

ie if Ness had a custom up B that was a normal vertical recovery (no PKT controlling aspect), he'd become much more viable because the main thing that hurts him is the same thing that has - easy to gimp.

PSI Teleport for custom up special yes please.

Worth noting though that even though Samus has a few fundamental problems, customs still patch her up a fair amount. Between Dense Charge Shot and Relentless Missiles she can have 3-4 projectiles onscreen at once, Apex Screw Attack is a powerful OOS option, and Slip Bomb I'm pretty sure is overall better than default Bombs.

 

[Cenizas]

Zelda wasn't nerfed in 1.0.4. She only got a u-tilt buff.

No, the range of her Roll Canceled(???) Pivot Grab got nerfed, hard. To be fair, it was pretty janky and massive, but it was nice and Zelda could definitely use anything she could get.

Ninja'd by @ Lavani

 

[Balgorxz]

That would not only be the stupidest thing ever, but the funniest and most testosterone-filled thing ever!

Please, we need a Ganondorf-only tournament!

We used to have those in Australia (Queensland) for Brawl. Now it's Melee with Donkey Kong.

Well if people use different ganons we can have variety even if it a 20XX ganon tournament.

 

[Conda]

PSI Teleport for custom up special yes please.

Worth noting though that even though Samus has a few fundamental problems, customs still patch her up a fair amount. Between Dense Charge Shot and Relentless Missiles she can have 3-4 projectiles onscreen at once, Apex Screw Attack is a powerful OOS option, and Slip Bomb I'm pretty sure is overall better than default Bombs.

Her issue with projectiles is endlag and punishability when perfect shielded.

Default charge shot is still the best option. Dense Charge Shot is great, but also a great way to invite a shield and waste the whole point of charge shot - reward. This ensures it won't land (how do you plan on trapping people into dense charge shot situations, when the lag on the move is so high it's punishable on reaction and generally unsafe?). Charge shot is a surprise KO option ala most charge abilities, and I think they're strongest as such.

Relentless missile is good though. I'm partial to large bomb, as Samus can still down B for mobility so all you lose is multiple bombs, which suck anyway - the large bomb gives more stage control which is how I use it. Apex screw attack is great too, super high KO power.

Slip bomb is worse bomb as it doesn't provide any mobility on use, explodes very quickly (no stage control), and is super reactable by opponents (super unsafe). They'd be good if they acted like normal bombs, but it makes pressing the button pointless imo as it gets you punished.

 

[thehard]

Aw damn I referred to the Smash wiki patch notes which... have more than a few errors and omissions... someone should really clean that thing up.

 

[Conda]

Anyone have plans to unlock all custom moves? I haven't grinded yet on the Wii U as it takes so long and I don't want to grind for 1-2 weeks to do it. My MMO days are over.

I've got nearly half unlocked on my 3ds and may just stick to unlocking them there and transferring them. Which feels wrong.

 

[NairWizard]

PSI Teleport for custom up special yes please.

Worth noting though that even though Samus has a few fundamental problems, customs still patch her up a fair amount. Between Dense Charge Shot and Relentless Missiles she can have 3-4 projectiles onscreen at once, Apex Screw Attack is a powerful OOS option, and Slip Bomb I'm pretty sure is overall better than default Bombs.

I think that if there's some setup that allows her to combo into Apex Screw Attack for a KO on most characters, she'll be top/high tier. If that doesn't happen, then customs won't completely patch her up, but she'll still be one of the most creative, fun characters to watch and use because of her trap setups. Unlike Rosalina and Duck Hunt Dog or Sonic, no one minds when Samus is zoning because it's just so damn cool.

 

[Makorel]

Anyone have plans to unlock all custom moves? I haven't grinded yet on the Wii U as it takes so long and I don't want to grind for 1-2 weeks to do it. My MMO days are over.

I've got nearly half unlocked on my 3ds and may just stick to unlocking them there and transferring them. Which feels wrong.

I checked out the teamsp00ky stream recording for the customs match and someone mentioned that JohnNumbers had a method to get all customs unlocked on a Wii U quick and easy. I'm not sure how he did it but apparently every Wii U in the venue had their customs unlocked because of him. Perhaps someone could find out how he did it.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I guess its possible that my local tournament will be using customs soon since they are using experimental stuff right now. I guess I need to get a move on the 3ds glitch. I wonder if it works on wii u,

 

[Pazx]

@ Makorel @ Conda JohnNumbers did it on 3DS I believe and ported the sets over. I may have misinterpreted, it's possible he unlocked them on a Wii U and used a 3ds to put them on other Wii Us before the next tournament. Personally, I've just been leaving smash tour running in the background whenever I'm home because I can't be bothered grinding, if I'm the first to get em all I'll do setups for my region. I think it's probably easier to unlock on a 3DS although if you want to have them all on a Wii U crazy orders and all star supplemented by AFK Smash Tour is a good way to go about it.

@ Nabbitnator what's the 3DS glitch?

 

[Trifroze]

Honestly, my hopes for Mewtwo being good aren't that high. It may just be my Zelda salt/intuition kicking in, but after she's been in three games not being too spectacular and getting an overall nerf from Brawl to Smash 4, then getting nerfed again 1.0.4., one of the worst characters in Melee getting made into a decent character, especially after being M.I.A. from the next installment just seems too farfetched for my liking. Gonna hope I'm wrong though.

Seeing how Lucario and Ness are doing well, and that Mewtwo will probably play like a hybrid of the two, I think he might actually be good. One of the most important things in this game is kill throws and Mewtwo has those in Melee, plus SDI is pretty much gone now. Depends whether they revamp the moveset or not though.

 

[Cenizas]

I think that if there's some setup that allows her to combo into Apex Screw Attack for a KO on most characters, she'll be top/high tier. If that doesn't happen, then customs won't completely patch her up, but she'll still be one of the most creative, fun characters to watch and use because of her trap setups. Unlike Rosalina and Duck Hunt Dog or Sonic, no one minds when Samus is zoning because it's just so damn cool.

Plus, Samus does have IMO the best victory theme in the game, which I'll never tired of listening to.

Seriously though, Slip Bombs could be really useful in setting up combos and KO's, but I'm not well versed enough in Samus to really say what she could follow up with or if she's even quick enough to capitalize on the opportunity.

 

[Sinister Slush]

As much as I'd like to toot Yoshi's horn like most people are doing in this thread with their characters, I can't sadly cause his customs are honestly not amazing at all.
Just stars that're gigantic and do 4-8 damage that covers about 50% of maybe FD stage if he ground pounds in middle, and Lick being a kill move over a command grab which isn't that amazing if somebody shields it.