Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Havokbringer]

You heard it here first :D.

 

[strawhats]

I believe I heard M2K barely used marth but I'm not sure.

CACTUAR we should have done marth dittos instead of fox dittos T_T.

oh well maybe next time, also I need to eat before I play because I was in automatic mode until right before pools when I ate that double cheeseburger :D( mmmmmmmmmmmmm)

M2k used marth in his crew battle and wrecked pink shinobi and was doing the same to Armada until Amada cp'd mute city, even though that match was very close. Which only proves how good m2k is b/c. armada is god-tier on that stage.

Trust me if m2k uses marth more like before he will definately get back to where he was before brawl's release.

 

[raychun1]

i'm thinking of using marth as my secondary against ic's. anyone wanna give me tips on what to avoid?

what kind of chain grab's can the ic's do on marth? can they do any? how should i di it?

what are good stages against ic's as marth? (neutrals mostly. i hate picking cp stages)

is defense the best strat? f-air camp? i'm not a fan of camping, especially with marth. i don't think it'll give you wins in the long run

 

[Phoenix~Lament]

i'm thinking of using marth as my secondary against ic's. anyone wanna give me tips on what to avoid?

what kind of chain grab's can the ic's do on marth? can they do any? how should i di it?

what are good stages against ic's as marth? (neutrals mostly. i hate picking cp stages)

is defense the best strat? f-air camp? i'm not a fan of camping, especially with marth. i don't think it'll give you wins in the long run

Funny, I was just playing my friend's IC's today. Here are some basic tips I found useful..

IC's can chaingrab marth. At low percents, DI diagonally up and away, and at higher percents try to mix it up but always DI away. Marth's not heavy enough to hit the ground before IC's can regrab so you won't be teching or be tech chased I think.

Not sure about good stages. IC's have powerful attacks that reach above them so having platforms may not benefit you all that much.

Watch out for their downsmash

I'd have to say that f-air camping is pretty effective and tipper f-smashes are your best friend. I personally find reversed dolphin slashes to be useful but that might be more situational

 

[ArcNatural]

i'm thinking of using marth as my secondary against ic's. anyone wanna give me tips on what to avoid?

what kind of chain grab's can the ic's do on marth? can they do any? how should i di it?

what are good stages against ic's as marth? (neutrals mostly. i hate picking cp stages)

is defense the best strat? f-air camp? i'm not a fan of camping, especially with marth. i don't think it'll give you wins in the long run

Just watch how they react to fair camping.

Typically fair to dtilt, fair to jab, fair to dancing blade all work to prevent wavedash OoS, it's just a matter of staying unpredictable so they can't grab you.

I just wiggle fast from icey grabs, they can't really infinite you unless it's a wobble and you can jump out of most of the other stuff.

Platform stages are good, because while yes they have upair and bair, Iceys are in much more trouble than you are if they are on the platform.

Learn to roll or upb jab to grab combos from iceys if they like to do that OoS.

 

[P. O. F.]

^Will definitely be adding that to my guide. I've gotta dig around this thread a bit now. A lot more posts since I last checked. lol.

 

[Havokbringer]

Everything already said here.

Shuffle a single fair into D-tilt/ jab works amazingly good.

Watch out for the icey blocks tho because it clashes with your moves and also there isn't a real good way around their blizzard as well so its best just to space yourself away from it.

 

[BanjoKazooiePro]

I'm having trouble approaching with Marth. Mostly from what I see on youtube it's a lot of Fair, grabs, and Nairs., but I'm still getting beaten due to my lack of experience. Suggestions?

 

[raychun1]

i played trail's ic's yesterday, got 2 stocked a bunch of times. i dunno if i'm getting better, but i think i'm understanding the matchup more.

what i might have learned:

1. don't f-smash their shield. i dunno why i didn't figure this out earlier. they can wd ooshield so fcuking fast.

2. basically every tilt is a good idea.

3. staying underneath them is good, but it rarely kills.

4. d-smash works! i swear, i killed more with the dsmash than the fsmash. it's separates them and it can kill them vertically on the tip.

5. hochimintrail is too f****** good

 

[ArcNatural]

I'm having trouble approaching with Marth. Mostly from what I see on youtube it's a lot of Fair, grabs, and Nairs., but I'm still getting beaten due to my lack of experience. Suggestions?

You answered your own question since there is only one way to fix lack of experience. But things to keep in mind:

Marth has range, so if your fairing/aerialing close to them your probably not thinking about that spacing. The only time aerialing close to them is safe during an approach is if you can DI out of range (such as fairing out of shield while DIing away), or during a combo where they are already in the air.

Think of the stage as middle and ends.

Middle:

Shffl approaches in the middle are typically bad unless your making a prediction or your very well-spaced. Dash dancing to grab/cc grab are generally much safer. Ideally you want them to fear the grab and fsmash (cause he is Marth) in the middle of the stage, so your dash dancing pressures them to the ends. I typically only shffl approach in middle if it's a defensive situation for the other player (say they are being tech chased and I think they will spotdodge I may shffl a delayed nair). Or I predict/react to a shffl approach that I think I can outprioritize in time. Honestly, it's mostly dash dance grabbing/forcing opponents to edge in this situation if you aren't stuck in shield.

Ends:

Ends are much better for shffl approaches since your opponent can't go backwards and is forced to go over your or deal with the fair/aerial of choice. Grabbing is still good, but you get a lot more opportunities to do shffl approaches in this situation.

I don't know why I thought of this but I hope it helps.

 

[Blistering Speed]

So, I've heard countless times people say Marth beats Fox on FD and Fox has the advantage on every other stage. I still don't see that on Yoshi's, people may think I'm using an outdated aspect and Fox gains more from the stage, but I don't think so. I believe it's even on Yoshi's or a 55:45 Marth advantage.

 

[ArcNatural]

So, I've heard countless times people say Marth beats Fox on FD and Fox has the advantage on every other stage. I still don't see that on Yoshi's, people may think I'm using an outdated aspect and Fox gains more from the stage, but I don't think so. I believe it's even on Yoshi's or a 55:45 Marth advantage.

Yoshi's is debatable (I happen to think it's even too). Fox has better recovery options typically on this stage because of the platforms, he also has the short ceiling and upthrow upair combos more easily with the platforms.

While Marth gets fsmash/uptilt platform, short sides (benefits Fox as well) for better fsmash tippers and good edgegaurding (As he he usually does).

The stage is small, but that's a love/hate for both characters IMO. Both characters can do **** due to the close quarters.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Thanks ArcNatural, you've basically stated my reasons but better then I could've lol.

While we're on stage dependance between Marth and Fox, what's everyone's opinion on platforms effect on the matchup? I know it's largely negative but I'd like to see what other people's reasons are.

 

[raychun1]

counterpick stages

my counterpick stage questions.

how does marth generally do on: mute city+brinstar(good floatie stages) and corneria+pokefloats(good fox stages)???


i can't see marth doing well on any of those stages, except maybe brinstar. at least that stage has edges.

 

[Heart Break Kid]

Marth sucks on like all CP's.

 

[Phoenix~Lament]

Heart Break Kid just summed it up pretty well.

 

[Aesir]

I like doing rainbow cruise vs sheik and that's about it.

 

[TresChikon]

Heart Break Kid just summed it up pretty well.

Really? Oh, I always thought his air game made him ideal for PF

 

[I'm Vince irl]

Is it possible to waveland Marth's shffl's?

 

[Teczer0]

Is it possible to waveland Marth's shffl's?

Well.. you can do a rising fair and waveland out of it.....

But shffling means you kinda have to land... otherwise you can't L-cancel.

 

[soap]

You answered your own question since there is only one way to fix lack of experience. But things to keep in mind:

Marth has range, so if your fairing/aerialing close to them your probably not thinking about that spacing. The only time aerialing close to them is safe during an approach is if you can DI out of range (such as fairing out of shield while DIing away), or during a combo where they are already in the air.

Think of the stage as middle and ends.

Middle:

Shffl approaches in the middle are typically bad unless your making a prediction or your very well-spaced. Dash dancing to grab/cc grab are generally much safer. Ideally you want them to fear the grab and fsmash (cause he is Marth) in the middle of the stage, so your dash dancing pressures them to the ends. I typically only shffl approach in middle if it's a defensive situation for the other player (say they are being tech chased and I think they will spotdodge I may shffl a delayed nair). Or I predict/react to a shffl approach that I think I can outprioritize in time. Honestly, it's mostly dash dance grabbing/forcing opponents to edge in this situation if you aren't stuck in shield.

Ends:

Ends are much better for shffl approaches since your opponent can't go backwards and is forced to go over your or deal with the fair/aerial of choice. Grabbing is still good, but you get a lot more opportunities to do shffl approaches in this situation.

I don't know why I thought of this but I hope it helps.

i like this post, good way to think about his aerial game.

Marth sucks on like all CP's.

Id rather have a character that ***** on neutrals anyways

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Really? Oh, I always thought his air game made him ideal for PF

Until you play Fox/Falco

 

[Teczer0]

Until you play Fox/Falco

More like, until you realize how many walls you have to jump over.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Thanks ArcNatural, you've basically stated my reasons but better then I could've lol.

While we're on stage dependance between Marth and Fox, what's everyone's opinion on platforms effect on the matchup? I know it's largely negative but I'd like to see what other people's reasons are.

To answer this old question, I'd say that patforms generally benifit Marth more than Fox in this matchup with one glaring exception.

Third tier platforms (the top ones on battlefield and dreamland for example) that Marth cannot reach directly from a shorthop heavily favor Fox. It gives him a safe place to land (he still has to get down, but Fox has more than enough movement options+priority to pull that off) since Marth can't really reach it, while still giving Fox all of HIS benefits anyway.

Mid level platforms like those on Pokemon stadium, Yoshi's, ect favor Marth more than Fox, as it allows Marth to have basically...the perfect tech chase (good use of shffl'd uairs and uptilts litterally covers every option Fox has in one smooth motion). Additionally, Fox still gains no extra benefit since he still has to fullhop to reach the platform (and thus transition ONTO said platform, something most Foxes are not comfortable with doing). The f-smash tips is mearly a small bonus imo, what's more important is that uair and uptilt cover more of the platform (and that all of your aerials can reach the platform anyway, to pressure opponents who have already landed on the platform).

Low level platforms (FoD, when they get really low....that's all I can think of lol) are in Fox's favor as well imo, as Marth's uptilt becomes much more troublesome for use as a tech chase (if you guess wrong and hit them with the front of the uptilt they'll get launched away from you), and shorthopping forces Marth onto the platform. It also hampers his spacing for that reason (you can't drift back as much and you can't delay your aerials as much). Additionally, Fox is able to hit you with grounded attacks from under the platform, and they'll be shieldstabbing you (aim your shield, but still it's a bad position). Luckily, these platforms are few in number (there's only 2 and they're not even permanent :D)

well, there's my platform rant. Discuss <_<

 

[PK Webb]

I already apologize in advance for this. Umm how do you deal with a falco on FD? Half the time im in my shield and that aint good

 

[Teczer0]

If you're stuck in your shield too much try to WD OOS away from falco more often.

If your opponent isn't aware of frames and shields and stuff, you can just shield DI back and get a free shield grab.

WD OOS is probably your best bet though.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I already apologize in advance for this. Umm how do you deal with a falco on FD? Half the time im in my shield and that aint good

Cactuar said it's a lot of wavedashing out of shield and sh retreating aerials out of shield as far as defense goes. When you FINALLLY get on offense, Falco HAS TO DIE. If he doesn't, you're back on defense again taking another 20-40% trying to get on offense.

edit: Ninja'd

 

[Teczer0]

Dark Sonic - You sure have a lot to say about platforms O______X

 

[BananaTrooper]

hows mute city in terms of a cp against sheik? I figured since sheik has no ledges to grab she would be easier to edgeguard, but idk.

 

[Teczer0]

As a sheik player, I'd say its probably a bad idea.

Mute City doesn't particularly take anything away from sheik. Against good marths, its not like sheik ever has an edge in the first place.

Personally I wouldn't recommend it. Sheik can still camp needles on all the parts with platforms and her recovery doesn't really get phased at all, if anything the stage HELPS sheik recover with that stupid race thing.

 

[TresChikon]

EDIT:Sorry, I made a stupid post. Please ignore this post

EDIT2: okay i tried to make it less stupid

When you FINALLLY get on offense, Falco HAS TO DIE. If he doesn't, you're back on defense again taking another 20-40% trying to get on offense

SO in the hands of decent players, will FD favor Marth against Falco if the Marth could flawlessly take offense when the opportunity arises?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Mute City's small area also makes it very, very hard to space against shiek, and also limits how long your combos can go on for (no horizontal room). Shiek, who relys on 2-3 hit combos in the first place...isn't hampered by this.

Stick to neutrals man <_<.

 

[Teczer0]

I think the point is, that if you do hit falco and get aggressive falco should get hit a lot and you should stay on top of him so that he eventually dies.

Marth vs Falco is pretty good for marth on FD.

 

[Dark Sonic]

How well you do against Falco on FD is largely dependant on two things.

1. How well you deal with lasers- Falcos will be spamming this all day and spamming it well. There are a couple threads for help on how to deal with lasers, but I'd say one of the best things you could do is just get comfortable with shorthoping/wavedashing out of your shield. This will allow you to approach Falco without taking 20% from lasers in the process. Falco will now either retreat (if he has room to do so) or rush at you in an effort to keep you from cornering him. If he retreats you just repeat the process, it's when he approaches you that it starts to get tricky (and where knowing your OoS options becomes most important).

2. How hard you punish- This is what I was refering to when I said Falco should die. Considering how difficult it is to actually get through Falco's defense, you have to make it count when you do. Luckily, Marth has the tools to do just that. A devestating chainthrow, a plethora of finishers for said chainthrow, and plenty of setups to get that grab. Beware of crouch canceling at low percents though (actually, don't try to follow up after shffl'd aerials AT ALL until they're out of crouch canceling percents. Just use them for pressure). Against better Falcos, who shine out of your chainthrows, Marth still has a lot of techchasing options to push them out of those low percentages and right into the ideal combo percents. Edgeguarding....Falco shouldn't make it back <_<. He has a few tricks to slip you up, but if you can force him to actually use a recovery move (and not be able to recover with just his jump), then that's pretty much the stock.

Off to be for tonight. Might continue ranting tomorrow :D

 

[TresChikon]

Ooh, CC always gets me, thanks for the excellent tips Dark Sonic and Teczero

 

[Bob Money]

Cactuar is the new Azen. These games cause the mindgrains.

 

[Cactuar]

Lol.

<3 Bob$.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i thought spacies couldnt shine through CG if you pivot grabbed (which is really the only way to regrab if they don't DI after about 20%)

 

[Phoenix~Lament]

Also try to learn to perfect shield Falco's lasers, it somewhat helps (for all characters really)

Even if you can only do it sometimes, it's a lot better than not doing it at all.

 

[DippnDots]

A few tricks for powershielding lasers...

1. Don't look at your character, for some reason i've noticed it's easier to time it when you keep your eyes on the falco, I don't know if it's the way the peripherals work but trust me it's easier.
2. Tilt your shield forward / dash into the lazer, this will put your shield out a little further in front of you giving you a little room of error to still powershield the laser.
3. Don't sit in your shield after powershielding one, become fluent with instantly grabbing/wavedashing out of your shield. If I remember correctly, you have 0 lag whatsoever from powershielding a lazer but it's faster to wavedash out of your shield than to drop it and dash forward.