Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Dark Sonic]

i thought spacies couldnt shine through CG if you pivot grabbed (which is really the only way to regrab if they don't DI after about 20%)

Then they can just jump out.

The reason pivot grabbing seems to work is because they go for the shine anyway (and MISS) and then you grab them out of that.

And Falco can get out at lower percentages than Fox. Beware of that (not to mention at 0% Falco can DI the upthrow behind you and you can't turn around and regrab fast enough. Falco chaingrab doesn't start until 7%)

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

I wanna know how you guys feel about Marth vs Ganon. Personally I think it's pretty even with the stage being the determining factor. We're having a discussion on the Ganon boards about this, if anyone wants to drop their two cents there Here's the link or if you wanna keep it short and simple you can post here and I'll relay the message.

Cactuar you going to that NJ tourney? I know it's a bit from PA but if so maybe we can get some matches in.

 

[Cactuar]

What NJ tourney?

I usually just go to whatever people will drive to.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=238052

This Saturday.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Then they can just jump out.

you sure? i'm very confident they cannot, because they only have 1 to 2 frames before the grab hits (why they shine)

 

[DippnDots]

you sure? i'm very confident they cannot, because they only have 1 to 2 frames before the grab hits (why they shine)

you sir are correct, you pivot to avoid being hit because that's all they can do.

 

[ArcNatural]

Since I'm not a frame person, how many frames does it take to double jump?

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Airborne on frame 5 so earliest you could do is have it out on frame 6. Falco's jump is airborne on frame 7. A little something to compare it to.

 

[ArcNatural]

Airborne on frame 5 so earliest you could do is have it out on frame 6. Falco's jump is airborne on frame 7. A little something to compare it to.

You sure that's doublejump where your already airborne? That seems like jumping from the ground.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Double jumps are one frame. His first jump, five frames, plus one.

 

[thegreatkazoo]

Is there ever a good time to use Marth's up smash. When I watch the pros, they almost never use it...

 

[SonuvaBeach]

Is there ever a good time to use Marth's up smash. When I watch the pros, they almost never use it...

Basically. Risk > Reward.

Like the f-smash...but 10x worse because it is harder to hit the tip and it is upwards. I'm sure if used correctly it can be used alright (because someone will respond and tell me how it can be used) but for the most part there are better options that are much less punishable if you miss and easier to use.

m2k used it on accident a bit at genesis.

 

[ArcNatural]

Double jumps are one frame. His first jump, five frames, plus one.

If doublejumps are 1 frame, then Fox/Falco CAN jump out of the grab rather than shine, since shine is 1 frame as well. Or can they not escape in that 1 frame and can only hit the Marth if they don't move?

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

You talking about the upthrow chaingrab Marth has on Fox? Thing is they can probably jump out when they get high enough and gain frame advantage. If the frame advantage is one then they will get grabbed most likely if they jump. Shine is one frame but that one frame also makes Fox/Falco completely invincible.

 

[DippnDots]

not to mention, even if their second jump kicks in they might still be in the grab hitbox for a couple of frames.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If doublejumps are 1 frame, then Fox/Falco CAN jump out of the grab rather than shine, since shine is 1 frame as well. Or can they not escape in that 1 frame and can only hit the Marth if they don't move?

i dont think the vertical acceleration is great enough to get them out in time, but my AR doesn't work so i can't test to be sure.

 

[Strong Badam]

the thing about shine is that it's a hitbox rather than a form of motion, and it knocks marth away/into a combo (depending on which space animal we're talking about) so that they can escape. marth can just uptilt you if you're djing anyway, and then there goes your stock if he combos into fsmash.
but yeah it takes 1 frame to initiate a second jump while in the air.

 

[Dark Sonic]

If doublejumps are 1 frame, then Fox/Falco CAN jump out of the grab rather than shine, since shine is 1 frame as well. Or can they not escape in that 1 frame and can only hit the Marth if they don't move?

To answer your question in detail.

If they can shine, they can also jump. However, jumping will not escape the grab if done quickly enough as their body is still within grab range for the first 2-3 frames of jumping. Shine on the other hand makes them invincible, and more importantly HAS A HITBOX to interrupt Marth's grab.

It is well known that you can grab Fox out of this shine by pivot grabbing during the chainthrow. However, the extra time required to do the pivot (at the distance needed to outrange the shine) is long enough for Fox to gain the frame advantage needed for JUMPING out of the chainthrow. That's why I said the chainthrow is more of a mixup at such low percents, and only becomes solid when Fox has a little more damage (adding a few frames of hitstun and reducing his frame advantage). I forgot the exact percentage range though, I think it was around 25% or something it becomes a real chainthrow again.

 

[TresChikon]

So...

Shine beats non pivot CG
Pivot beats shine
Double jump beats pivot
Non pivot CG beats double jump at lower percentages right?

 

[ArcNatural]

So...

Shine beats non pivot CG
Pivot beats shine
Double jump beats pivot
Non pivot CG beats double jump at lower percentages right?

Pivot Beats both Shine and the jump out according to what Dark Sonic said.

Shine just prevents normal regrab or a misspaced pivot grab.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Pivot Beats both Shine and the jump out according to what Dark Sonic said.

Shine just prevents normal regrab or a misspaced pivot grab.

Well actually, I'm not quite sure about that. Because you see...pivoting takes TIME. The time needed to do the pivot MAY be enough for them to succefully jump out at certain percentages (I'm guessing 18-24% here), since they can technically jump out at the same time as they would've shined. Only now that you're using time to pivot, they move farther after jumping and my escape your grab range.

It could also just be me messing up the timing a little, as I was never very profficient at chainthrowing to begin with <_<. Combine this with fighting Fox and Falcos who actually bother to time their jumps and shines instead of mashing buttons, and you could understand how my opinion may be skewed. If I had an AR I'd test it just to be sure <_<

 

[Cactuar]

Easy solution: fthrow and dthrow tech chase.

 

[DippnDots]

pivoting takes time, but it's the time you normally use standing there doing nothing, waiting for them to fall back down for a regrab.

 

[Dark Sonic]

pivoting takes time, but it's the time you normally use standing there doing nothing, waiting for them to fall back down for a regrab.

but you have to pivot far enough to outrange a possible shine.

And I definitely prefer Cactuar's fix

 

[DippnDots]

which isn't that far, even shorter on falco. Yeah mixing it up with a fthrow or dthrow works, so does the pivot. I thought it's been known for a while the pivot grab works, i've certainly been under that impression for a long time.

 

[TresChikon]

Well actually, I'm not quite sure about that. Because you see...pivoting takes TIME. The time needed to do the pivot MAY be enough for them to succefully jump out at certain percentages (I'm guessing 18-24% here), since they can technically jump out at the same time as they would've shined. Only now that you're using time to pivot, they move farther after jumping and my escape your grab range.

It could also just be me messing up the timing a little, as I was never very profficient at chainthrowing to begin with <_<. Combine this with fighting Fox and Falcos who actually bother to time their jumps and shines instead of mashing buttons, and you could understand how my opinion may be skewed. If I had an AR I'd test it just to be sure <_<

Ah I see, so the counter to a pivot would either be a jump or to predict the pivot and delay the shine so it hits right?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Ah I see, so the counter to a pivot would either be a jump or to predict the pivot and delay the shine so it hits right?

marth's grab outspaces the shine. i've never seen anyone jump out of a chaingrab, and i'm assuming that you would have to be frame perfect in order to accomplish it. basically, pivot grab is the best option, and the best counter would be to simply DI out once the utilts start. and when i say "di out" i really mean "di in" because DIing out will actually just make you stay put for another utilt (in case you didnt know)

 

[soap]

ive seen jump outs

 

[TresChikon]

marth's grab outspaces the shine. i've never seen anyone jump out of a chaingrab

Hah, Marth's grab IS like half the stage. But i was wondering for a way to get out of a pivot, DarkSonic said something about timing stuff vs. frantically button mashing, so i was wondering if well timed shines and double jumps can beat a pivot

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Hint, don't do the shine.

Although it's POSSIBLE to jump ouit of a shine like 3 frames after doing it, most people don't and waste valuable time sitting there in their shine allowing Marth to grab them (even then, that's 3 frames you're wasting doing a move that won't hit anyway).

If you think Marth is going to pivot grab at the correct distance to avoid a shine, you're better off not doing it at all, and instead trying to time a jump to jump out as soon as hitstun is over.

Mashing is bad because you waste a lot of time inbetween button presses. Kinda like the deal where mashing to do SHDFs with Marth just doesn't really work that well.

I still don't know for sure if Marth can grab you if you time the jump right though <_< I wanna know with 100% certainty if it's just me messing up my timing on the pivot grab, or if Fox and Falco can really jump out. Cause Colbol does this ALL THE TIME, yet other Fox players I play against don't despite trying.

 

[TresChikon]

Wow. Even if you're not 100% certain, it's sure to help me out a lot. Thanks for the help!

 

[DoH]

Cactuar, why do you and darkrain have the same birthday? I'm gonna have to go buy more pans to bake all of these cakes.

 

[Cactuar]

O.o I did not know that. We should have been Team Hiroshima at genesis...

 

[DoH]

It's also forkgirl and z's birthday

Does that mean you're children of the atom?

 

[Cactuar]

I wanted to be a big nerd and just say I'm a Bokononist for some reason....

 

[Zephynazo]

One question: How the **** do u play vs campy foxes, that just grabs and uairs after u fair or nair.

Thx.

 

[ArcNatural]

One question: How the **** do u play vs campy foxes, that just grabs and uairs after u fair or nair.

Thx.

Space better, if you know they are looking to grab try stationary nair/fair or stationary short hop to di back fair/nair to give yourself more room.

You can shffl to buffered roll/spotdodge to avoid grabs, you can also shffl -> grab if you think they are coming in late.

You can empty short hop to stuff like waveland, landing then grabbing etc.

If you know he grabs you when you fair or nair, try to figure out ways to exploit that, or avoid fairing or nairing in that situation and dash dance or something. So instead of shffl nairing in that situation, dash -> dash nair instead.

 

[darkrain]

Cactuar is my twin brother and I didn't even know it.

Happy Birthday Cactus!

 

[Cactuar]

Cactuar is my twin brother and I didn't even know it.

Happy Birthday Cactus!

Happy Birthday darkrain!

 

[Zephynazo]

Space better, if you know they are looking to grab try stationary nair/fair or stationary short hop to di back fair/nair to give yourself more room.

You can shffl to buffered roll/spotdodge to avoid grabs, you can also shffl -> grab if you think they are coming in late.

You can empty short hop to stuff like waveland, landing then grabbing etc.

If you know he grabs you when you fair or nair, try to figure out ways to exploit that, or avoid fairing or nairing in that situation and dash dance or something. So instead of shffl nairing in that situation, dash -> dash nair instead.

Thank you ^^ I'll try it.