Brawl+ Beta Build (GSH1) Discussion

[Alphatron]

I'd honestly write Falcon off as a bad character in this set.

 

[MK26]

now we cant have that, can we?

cuz were obvs all meleetards that are biased towards the great captain

rite gaiz?

 

[BEES]

As a rule of thumb: the better Falcon is, the better the game is. He is THE smash bros character. That's just the way the world works.

 

[ValTroX]

I disagree with the idea of a controlable ADWT and yes, Falcon lost some of his manliness, I demand it back

 

[goodoldganon]

now we cant have that, can we?

cuz were obvs all meleetards that are biased towards the great captain

rite gaiz?

Falcon being bad is like a street fighter where Ryu is bad. Can't happen

 

[Thunderhorse+]

I'd honestly write Falcon off as a bad character in this set.

now we cant have that, can we?

cuz were obvs all meleetards that are biased towards the great captain

rite gaiz?

As a rule of thumb: the better Falcon is, the better the game is. He is THE smash bros character. That's just the way the world works.

I disagree with the idea of a controlable ADWT and yes, Falcon lost some of his manliness, I demand it back

oooooohhhhhh ok now I remember why RC1 Falcon was imba. It was because people bought in to the whole LAWL MANLINESS MEME and buffed the **** out of him needlessly because ITZ NAWT RIGHT IF FAWLCOWN'S NAWT NUMBAH WON!

Falcon is fine (even if he can't autocombo you into a death knee at 80%), step up your Falcon game.

 

[Veril]

tumble cues... seriously? Do we need to wave a flag?

Anyway, I've been saying this for a while: the vast majority of the combos from 5.0 are still in the beta. They are simply harder to execute. My discussion with Holy last night about Rob's d-throw to nair combo is a perfect example of this. Honestly, I like that combos are more difficult to execute in the beta, generally they remain possible with a high level of tech skill (practice ftw, like it should be).

Increasing jump velocities is a really good idea because with that some of the KO setups that right now just barely fail in the beta will be possible with a high level of technical skill. Having played and tested the Beta for a while now, 5.0 feels very sloppy with the combos. More and more I'm coming to like the (very slightly) lower hitstun and I'd rather try to fix the moves that are now too weak than go back to 5.0 hitstun. Its a better base to work from.

No Falcon john's btw (seriously, check out his new up-throw).

Falcon is fine, step up your Falcon game.

this ^

 

[IC3R]

Falcon being bad is like a street fighter where Ryu is bad. Can't happen

But vbawrl made it happen =(

 

[Veril]

But vbawrl made it happen =(

It also made tripping happen... the game has committed a long list of unforgivable sins.

Rob and Ganon updated: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=249078

too bad pointless threads pushed mah baybay into like the 3rd page or something ********.

 

[Uzima (Uzi)]

If the discussion is like the title says and its on shield stun.

I've thought alot about this and worked some codes out before and it would be very hard to pull off and be balanced, but bringing back the 64 style shield breaker combos could be an incredible boost.

giving the shielder the ability to sorta DI while still in shield (left or right) while being his by the attacker (using very very hard shield stun positive attack string) and you will have a new type of attacking and defending combo system.

the 64 style was lacking in certain characters could do it incredibly easy (kirby) while with others it was much much harder (fox for example) and the shielder had 0 options to defend. But with the boost of some how giving them shield DI they could counter some shield breaker combos.

but the largest problem i see is how to pull of the right amount of shield stun, giving characters like fox the possability, while keeping snake from being able to do it with nothing but f-tilts.

Just my 2 cents for a long lost game element.

if this isnt the right place or time to post this, my bad. just skip on over.

 

[Swordplay]

LOL Orca. I get it now.

If the whole point of NADT is to add human error to the equation thats fine.

===========rest of this post is pretty extreme and harps on what I think is wrong if the above statement is true===========

Thing is right now it doesn't seem stable. I might as well have a random number generator decide how many frames I get out of tumble to AD. This is because it is difficult to tell exactly when tumble starts in game. Instead I would find myself just mashing wiggle and AD. Or A for nair depending on character.

If anything, I think if you stop the mashing of wiggling then you can add skill to it. If people actually have to TIME it instead of mashing wiggle then NADT might have something. As an example, if you had to press a sequence of buttons, you wouldn't mash that sequence because if you were in the middle of the sequence when you went into tumble it wouldn't work. (same idea with buffering it) Rather you would anticipate the soonest spot you could start mashing the sequence.

Basically to fix NADT you should make it more complex.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Neko...tapping either up or down does not get you out of tumble. So the whole "just tap in the direction that would also give you the best DI" is partially invalid, since most of the time the "best" DI involves one of these directions (away and down to get out of combos, towards and up to survive kill moves).

Just sayin <_<

 

[BEES]

oooooohhhhhh ok now I remember why RC1 Falcon was imba. It was because people bought in to the whole LAWL MANLINESS MEME and buffed the **** out of him needlessly because ITZ NAWT RIGHT IF FAWLCOWN'S NAWT NUMBAH WON!

Falcon is fine (even if he can't autocombo you into a death knee at 80%), step up your Falcon game.

Falcon was not unbalanced in 5.0. Comfortably above-average at best. Not even top 10 of the cast. Falco was a significantly better character in that codeset and they didn't take a machete to him here. He's quite usable.

 

[goodoldganon]

Falcon was not unbalanced in 5.0. Comfortably above-average at best. Not even top 10 of the cast. Falco was a significantly better character in that codeset and they didn't take a machete to him here. He's quite usable.

I love how everyone says Falcon is so imba when he clearly is not. I can name at least 5 better characters then him, and a few that were just on par with him. Being able to string together easy combos =/= being imba. Falcon is the most overrated 5.0 character. Don't get me wrong, he's good, but he sure as hell isn't MK, Squirtle, Snake, Fox, or Ness 5.0 quality. He got nerfed on the transfer over, that much I know for sure.

Doesn't matter, it's all in the past.

 

[camelot]

I was wondering why Falcon's d-smash was nerfed in knockback. Was it really too good of a move? If anything, I'd get rid of that weird speed change, not reduce the knockback.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

You do wiggle to get out of tumble already.

Setting a visual cue to let people know they have entered tumble is highly unnecessary. Are we trying to create a game for 5 year olds? Step up and play better.

Noobifying this game would be a crime since it's being built as a tourney game.

Ok first of all, I thought we were trying to make a better Brawl, not just a tournament worthy brawl. Part of making a good tournament worthy game is accessibility. That allows new players to start playing and build up their skills to the level of tournament level play.

Why is a graphical effect a bad idea? Why because it helps people learn what tumble is? Because it gives "noobs" a better cue about what is happening in the game?

There are lots of people out there who don't even know what tumble is or how to get out of it, and there is no way to find out without being told because it is NOT intuitive.

Like it or not, there are people out there who play Brawl+ who are not tournament worthy. Our final goal should be to have a game that is easy to pick up and hard to master.

A simple graphical flash or something will prompt new players to go "whats that" when they get hit. The result of this means that newer players will not only learn the internal workings of the game quicker, but experienced players will also refine their game to a greater degree.

And yes, I'll admit that I wiggle out of AD just by hudging. I don't know what this audio or visual cue is. If someone can explain it to me, it would be awesome.

I also like the idea of wiggledodging creating a melee dodge effect, but I can see this causing problems, especially with circumstances where you can wiggle dodge onto a surface.

Long story short, an exclusionary game is not a better game. An intuitive game IS a better game. People should be rewarded for fast thinking, creative gameplay choices, good combo strings, and quick reflexes on the defense. They should not be rewarded for simply knowing a facet of the game that is not explained in any instruction booklet or how to play video. This goes double for Brawl+ considering it is a fan mod and HAS no instruction booklet or how to play video.

... this brings up another interesting idea though. I think it would be cool if we made a Brawl+ instruction booklet! I mean a real instruction booklet, not the ****ty stuff that comes with Brawl or melee. Stuff that activley explains ALR, and NADT + Tumble + Wiggling, and that gives a real run down of how the characters control and good strategies with them rather than just throwing their B moves at us and calling it a day. We could release it in PDF format, and then whenever someone days "uh... I don't get it, what do you mean I need to wiggle to get out of tumble" we could just say RTFM and call it a day.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

Thing is right now it doesn't seem stable. I might as well have a random number generator decide how many frames I get out of tumble to AD. This is because it is difficult to tell exactly when tumble starts in game. Instead I would find myself just mashing wiggle and AD. Or A for nair depending on character.

As I said, a simple graphical flash would fix this right up.

 

[Swordplay]

Graphical effects make it noob friendly. If thats what people want then whatever.

If people want it to be human error and skill then you need to make it more complex to take away the mashing. That is why I suggest some sort of sequence of buttons or coordination of ...something.

Complexity adds difficulty which adds an increase in human error. Right now it seems to many people are saying wiggle>AD is same thing as AD, it will be overcome. SO MAKE IT HARDER IF THAT IS WHAT YOU WANT

 

[Perfect Chaos]

@MyLifeIsAnRPG
Making the game easier with these graphical cues, such as the flash of light idea, is not going to get you more players. People are not going to say, "oh, this game tells me when certain things happen, so I'm going to play it!" The people that will play it, regardless of such effects, will still play it, and the people who don't, won't pick it up because of this.
And if you say that these things will make casual players more likely to want to go competitive as a rebuttal or something, then that's just silly. People with the mindset of wanting to get better will do so through research, regardless if there's an "official manual" or not. They don't need in-game visual cues to get them started. And those that are content with playing casually won't really bother, regardless of such visual cues (they might even just overlook it every time, for those that truly play casually). Some of them might just ask about it, but then put it aside immediately after.

The thing is, I don't think such a thing is necessary, beneficial, or worth the time to make the changes for; time that is better spent on other stuff...

 

[Veril]

People with the mindset of wanting to get better will do so through research, regardless if there's an "official manual" or not. They don't need in-game visual cues to get them started.

truth

They should not be rewarded for simply knowing a facet of the game that is not explained in any instruction booklet or how to play video. This goes double for Brawl+ considering it is a fan mod and HAS no instruction booklet or how to play video.

Why would we want to make B+ more n00b friendly? Its a competitive hack. A game should have depths that a casual player might not be aware of. I'm sorry but I have literally the opposite view that you do. The information is there to be found and players should be rewarded for doing so.

This is a game that is intended to be played in tournaments... you know, for money. Work should be rewarded as much as if not more than innate talent. As it stands all the things you mentioned as desirable are more important than raw knowledge. Otherwise I'd be ****** everyone, which I am not... yet ;p

 

[Dan_X]

@MyLifeIsAnRPG
Making the game easier with these graphical cues, such as the flash of light idea, is not going to get you more players. People are not going to say, "oh, this game tells me when certain things happen, so I'm going to play it!" The people that will play it, regardless of such effects, will still play it, and the people who don't, won't pick it up because of this.
And if you say that these things will make casual players more likely to want to go competitive as a rebuttal or something, then that's just silly. People with the mindset of wanting to get better will do so through research, regardless if there's an "official manual" or not. They don't need in-game visual cues to get them started. And those that are content with playing casually won't really other, regardless of such visual cues (they might even just overlook it every time, for those that truly play casually). Some of these might just ask about it, but then put it aside immediately after.

The thing is, I don't think such a thing is necessary, beneficial, or worth the time to make the change for. Time better spent on other stuff...

I agree! :D

 

[Shadic]

Why would we want to make B+ more n00b friendly? Its a competitive hack.

How is giving the player a clue as to what's going making it n00b friendly? All it does it make it so somebody can actually understand. It's not like this makes it any easier to get out of tumble.

A game should have depths that a casual player might not be aware of. I'm sorry but I have literally the opposite view that you do. The information is there to be found and players should be rewarded for doing so.

Like wavedashing? L-canceling? I'm sorry, but I think that making people read-up on simple game mechanics is dumb.

This is a game that is intended to be played in tournaments... you know, for money. Work should be rewarded as much as if not more than innate talent. As it stands all the things you mentioned as desirable are more important than raw knowledge.

I think B+ is a game that best represents a player's overall Smash skill and knowledge already, honestly. B+ has plenty of little things dependent on a player's knowledge and skill already, why make such a big deal out of a friggin' airdodge and tumble mechanic?

The thing is, I don't think such a thing is necessary, beneficial, or worth the time to make the change for. Time better spent on other stuff...

All what, 5 minutes it would take to implement on a character?

Making the game easier with these graphical cues, such as the flash of light idea, is not going to get you more players. People are not going to say, "oh, this game tells me when certain things happen, so I'm going to play it!" The people that will play it, regardless of such effects, will still play it, and the people who don't, won't pick it up because of this.

Making it easier with graphical cues? Really? Should every character just be in a t-pose permanently then, so that their animations don't give away what attacks they're going to do? So that it doesn't become "EZ-mode"? This is a case of making basic information more noticeable to the player, I don't see the issue.

 

[Dan_X]

How is giving the player a clue as to what's going making it n00b friendly? All it does it make it so somebody can actually understand. It's not like this makes it any easier to get out of tumble.


Like wavedashing? L-canceling? I'm sorry, but I think that making people read-up on simple game mechanics is dumb.


I think B+ is a game that best represents a player's overall Smash skill and knowledge already, honestly. B+ has plenty of little things dependent on a player's knowledge and skill already, why make such a big deal out of a friggin' airdodge and tumble mechanic?


All what, 5 minutes it would take to implement on a character?


Making it easier with graphical cues? Really? Should every character just be in a t-post permanently then, so that their animations don't give away what attacks they're going to do? This is a case of making basic information more noticeable to the player, I don't see the issue.

You've made a flip-flopper of me. I thought about it more, and like I had initially felt, it wouldn't be a bad thing at all to add a graphical cue. It makes it make sense more to everyone. They can comprehend what's going on.

Let's test out a graphical cue in the next beta!

as you said, it's not going to make NADT easier. It will just make more sense.

 

[BadGuy]

Seriously? Really?

Every post that you make is one big troll as you try to antagonize people to build on your ego. The fact that you have not done anything positive for this project is shown due to your lack of any real skill towards the game or tournament experience. You also would rather just have recognition for making something in this game than having the game be good. We have all seen the fruits of that labor. Can you say Wolf nair in RC1? Did you even test your **** before you put it up?

Its people like you that will force Brawl+ to continue to suck. ****ty players that for some reason are in the WBR and have access to "decision making" when you do not host, attend, or play in tournaments. We have many of these people in the back room. GoodoldGanon is a completely casual player who makes assumptions about things off of a change list without actually testing it or playing it first. Ultimate failure with theory crafting there. Neko is a complete troll that is only in the back room due to the fact that he pays for the site, which is both sad and pathetic. Leaf is a nerdy high school kid with no friends and is power mad to be an OP on the IRC or a bully on the internet.

Thats your WBR in a nutshell, that is what has been producing Brawl+ up to this point and that is the reason it will continue to suck. I wanted to quit this stupid downhill project months ago and I think I have finally lost all patience with it. The WBR is a bunch of ******** morons who want to buff their own character and be revered as some kind of super heros for their subpar work instead of properly fixing this game as they should have been from the beginning.

If you WBR ******* want to keep trying to "balance" this game like you did RC1 then thats fine. More money for me and anyone else smart enough to abuse your ******** changes.


**** Brawl+. I'm out.

I totally agree, this game has been edited and tinkered with by noobs and its the sole reason why brawl+ will never be finished. If cape ain't editing the game then i see no reason to play anymore. Real tourney players will also stop supporting brawl+ edited by inexperienced weaklings after playing cape's set as well.

Start begging cape for forgiveness.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

All what, 5 minutes it would take to implement on a character?

Even if it's 5 minutes per character, that's over 3 hours of time better spent on other stuff that matters more.

Making it easier with graphical cues? Really? Should every character just be in a t-pose permanently then, so that their animations don't give away what attacks they're going to do? So that it doesn't become "EZ-mode"? This is a case of making basic information more noticeable to the player, I don't see the issue.

Talk about using stupid logic... You're comparing adding something totally different that never existed in any Smash game to attack animations?
But if you're so keen on graphical cues to tell players stuff, let's not just stop there; let's make all hitboxes visible, as well, so that everyone can learn about hitboxes more effectively during (tournament) matches...

You've made a flip-flopper of me. I thought about it more, and like I had initially felt, it wouldn't be a bad thing at all to add a graphical cue. It makes it make sense more to everyone. They can comprehend what's going on.

Let's test out a graphical cue in the next beta!

as you said, it's not going to make NADT easier. It will just make more sense.

I sure hope that's sarcasm...

Also (since someone brought it up)...

Cape (if you happen to read this), give forgive the WBR! Seriously, I can't speak for everyone, and will not attempt to, but I personally think you are vital for making B+ a success in the end. (Although my opinion is probably not significant for you, not know each other that well or anything. )

 

[Shell]

@BadGuy, and others:

Unfortunately, this is the dilemma faced when the tools only gradually catch up with the goal. If we'd had PSA, BrawlBox, and all of our codes from day one things would've been a lot better, with a couple months of large internal coding and testing, and then a much more static release.

But that's the way it goes. The programmers who've developed everything over the course of the last year have put mammoth amounts of work into their creations, and to expect them to have had everything completed in an instant is nonsensical.

So, as tools are created incrementally, you either settle for stable mediocrity or push for a gradual change towards greatness. (People will hate you either way) Should we have stopped after our first five hitbox changes? Perhaps. Perhaps not. It's a hard line to draw. Given our hindsight now, the majority of us would likely be outraged at the massive imbalances that would still have littered the game if we'd only fixed Sheik's F-tilt lock, nerf'd MK's Up-B, and fixed a couple chain grabs. With this in mind, perhaps players of the future would look back on today's beta and be able to acknowledge the still untapped potential. Who knows.

So when do you stop? My opinion has been that if you introduce changes and they're generally agreed to improve the game, don't hold back. Make the game as good as possible. Obviously, this will be a point of quite some contention, so I'm interested in seeing everyone's view point.

While I think Cape's personal flaming was a bit uncalled for, he brings up some valid points regarding the disorganization of the WBR, points which we are in the process of reviewing, and we hope to settle our vision and restructure our organization in the near future. Thank you everyone for your patience.

The most important thing everyone can do right now is give in-depth feedback on this beta build and substantiated (!) opinions on how it would / should affect the future of Brawl+.

 

[Shadic]

Talk about using stupid logic... You're comparing adding something totally different that never existed in any Smash game to attack animations?
But if you're so keen on graphical cues to tell players stuff, let's not just stop there; let's make all hitboxes visible, as well, so that everyone can learn about hitboxes more effectively during (tournament) matches...

Strange, but I feel like we should make relatively significant gameplay changes EVIDENT to somebody playing the game, instead of just hiding away in some B+ FAQ.

Even if it's 5 minutes per character, that's over 3 hours of time better spent on other stuff that matters more.

Speaking of stupid logic. We can't spend 5 minutes per character in regards to a relatively significant global gameplay change? Think of all the other things that have been done that required much more time fine-tuning for each and every character.

Hell, I'm going hope that each and every hitbox change took more than 5 minutes of consideration.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

It's not that other stuff takes longer than 5 minutes that matters to me, it's that this would take 5 minutes more than it deserves. I just don't like the idea of there being a flash to signify one going into tumble; I don't see it changing the game for the better, at all. But this is only my opinion. I'm going to end this debate here. Feel free to continue this with yourself and anyone else else willing to participate.
I'm going to sleep.

 

[Dan_X]

@BadGuy, and others:

Unfortunately, this is the dilemma faced when the tools only gradually catch up with the goal. If we'd had PSA, BrawlBox, and all of our codes from day one things would've been a lot better, with a couple months of large internal coding and testing, and then a much more static release.

But that's the way it goes. The programmers who've developed everything over the course of the last year have put mammoth amounts of work into their creations, and to expect them to have had everything completed in an instant is nonsensical.

So, as tools are created incrementally, you either settle for stable mediocrity or push for a gradual change towards greatness. (People will hate you either way) Should we have stopped after our first five hitbox changes? Perhaps. Perhaps not. It's a hard line to draw. Given our hindsight now, the majority of us would likely be outraged at the massive imbalances that would still have littered the game if we'd only fixed Sheik's F-tilt lock, nerf'd MK's Up-B, and fixed a couple chain grabs. With this in mind, perhaps players of the future would look back on today's beta and be able to acknowledge the still untapped potential. Who knows.

So when do you stop? My opinion has been that if you introduce changes and they're generally agreed to improve the game, don't hold back. Make the game as good as possible. Obviously, this will be a point of quite some contention, so I'm interested in seeing everyone's view point.

While I think Cape's personal flaming was a bit uncalled for, he brings up some valid points regarding the disorganization of the WBR, points which we are in the process of reviewing, and we hope to settle our vision and restructure our organization in the near future. Thank you everyone for your patience.

The most important thing everyone can do right now is give in-depth feedback on this beta build and substantiated (!) opinions on how it would / should affect the future of Brawl+.

Very eloquently put!

I too feel that we should continue developing the game so long as there's more to develope. We clearly have many goals right now, even if they are numerous.

I strongly agree that the project needs more structure, but structure is not exactly a simple task in a collaborative community project. The Brawl+ community, even the WBR isn't a business. We aren't getting payed. We aren't always around. Were not having meetings with defined goals and topics of discussion. Sure some of these things could be emulated. WBR members could create specified discussion threads to come to an important decision, or to make important progress. That's sort of like having a meeting.

I guess my point is that it's a cumbersome process... Does anyone in the WBR meet on ventrilo? Actual conversations might aid the project instead of limiting discussion to the sea of nonense that many threads become.

I think the best way to organize, as I've said, is to hold key focused discussion in specified threads, and perhaps talk via vent as well. Beyond this, and this is where things get tricky, deadlines may help the project along. I'm not saying to publically tell the community that a new RC or beta will be released on such and such a date. That may be foolish as in the event that the WBR wasn't ready for the deadline they shouldn't feel compelled to release a half-baked product. What I infer to when I say "deadline" is perhaps have more deadlines within the WBR. Obviously noone but those in the WBR would know of such deadlines-- so there'd be no overwhelming pressure. It might not be a bad idea to during a meeting set a window when certain changes should be done and prepared for testing. Or perhaps testing should have already taken place. This way the WBR is more on the same page with one another.

Please don't condemn me if this is already how the WBR functions, because I have no clue. However, here's an example using the above model:

we've been talking a ton abot increasing jump velocities, and tweaking physics. We've also talked about the grab range. We've talked about tons of things. What if during a meeting WBR members Bob and Joe, as a result of the conversation, were asked if they could prepare x changes by a week from or something, whatevers realistic. The idea is really to create more incentive to get things going at a better pace.

Does this make any sense? Is this unrealstic. Heck, would this help-- at all?

 

[Alphatron]

^I think it would help organization wise. Then again, I'm not in the WBR so I have no idea. I DO however believe that certain things could be done more professionally. Changes made to characters are just one of those things.

While I don't think Cape was wrong, and would really like it if he came back, I'll be honest. The personal attacks were out of line, as was the fact that he responded that way to a joke(though this could also fit the lines of the need to be more professional at times).

As GoG stated twice, the audio cue on when your character exits tumble is when they cry out. That annoying delayed cry of pain a few seconds after being hit. The visual cue in game already...is...well that you're tumbling in the air. We've all seen that.

Now let me address another point. While Brawl+ definitely should not be an overly easy game or a game that holds the player's hand, I believe that shutting out casuals is a HUGE mistake design wise. The enormous split in the player base is why we have brawl.

I'm not saying that we should make the game easier, but simply accessible. New players should be shown what these new mechanics are. That's it. We aren't telling them, " Use uair x3, the SHRest, then edge cancel sing to do XXX% damage. It's simply telling them how to play. Something melee and 64 failed at manual wise.

The fact that Z/L cancelling was posted on the site and was NOWHERE in the manual generated massive ignorance. Imagine how stupid I felt just a few years ago when I learned what wavedashing was supposed to be and do. Imagine the number of people I met afterwards who still believe that it does damage, grants invincibility, creates endless 0 deaths and breaks the game like MKDS Snaking with Dry Bones/Yoshi. Worse is that I'm still meeting people who tell me that brawl+ and now even balanced brawl(!!!) have wavedashing and are melee clones.

Information should be universally accesible to everyone. Now, if a casual player wants to learn up on brawl hitboxes, they can simply go to youtube. Before, they needed to use debug codes, AR, or mod their console. That's not something everyone can do.

All I'm saying is that it hurts if people aren't simply told what something is or why its there. At the end of the day, people who look further into it and study will know more. People who don't simply won't. But at least they have a feasible option to do so, and player ignorance wouldn't be generated. This also goes into the changelist for the reason that a good deal of B+ readers don't read it because they don't understand what its saying(Falcon Kick offensive flags changed from xxx-xxx)

 

[Dark Sonic]

We could make a custom opening screen to explain what tumble is and how to break out of it or something right? Kinda like we did with buffering.

"You can't dodge attacks if your character is doing backflips! Tap the control stick to right your character! Listen for his cries of pain, he needs your help!"

You know, something like that. <_<

 

[shanus]

Even if it's 5 minutes per character, that's over 3 hours of time better spent on other stuff that matters more.
Talk about using stupid logic... You're comparing adding something totally different that never existed in any Smash game to attack animations?
But if you're so keen on graphical cues to tell players stuff, let's not just stop there; let's make all hitboxes visible, as well, so that everyone can learn about hitboxes more effectively during (tournament) matches...
I sure hope that's sarcasm...

Also (since someone brought it up)...

Cape (if you happen to read this), give forgive the WBR! Seriously, I can't speak for everyone, and will not attempt to, but I personally think you are vital for making B+ a success in the end. (Although my opinion is probably not significant for you, not know each other that well or anything. )

A fighter.pac injection of a graphical command in a loop would take about 5 minutes to make and would apply to any character in the game, even non-standard

 

[Bandit]

Brawl+ was created for competitive players to be a tournament worthy game since vBrawl left much to be desired.

The fact that casual players jumped on board is great, but if you are just starting out in Brawl and don't know what tumble is or anything like that, then you shouldn't be playing Brawl+. If you came to Smashboards, found these B+ threads, and loaded the hack on your Wii, then one should safely assume you know how to play the game.

Casual players like things easy, so they don't have to invest their time into learning. It's why if you played Tekken, I would tell you to play Eddy and button mash. It looks cool with the dancing, you're probably doing pretty decent, and there are immediate results to keep the noob happy and making you feel like you are doing something.

This is not Hello Kitty Island Adventure; this is Brawl+. Step up or get out. If that's not the attitude of the decision makers behind this hack, then we have the wrong people in place.

 

[Dantarion]

Fighter.pac is so awesome, i love it.

 

[Daakun]

Backroom needs some transparency imo.

 

[Dantarion]

This is not Hello Kitty Island Adventure; this is Brawl+. Step up or get out. If that's not the attitude of the decision makers behind this hack, then we have the wrong people in place.

Are you serious? If we had that kinda attitude, we would just turn away potential players with no reason other than "WE R 2 HARDCORE FOR YOU CASUALS, LRN2PLAY". Theres a difference between wanting things to be easy and noticing something unnessesarily difficult. Telling someone "they shouldn't be playing Brawl+" for any reason is just dumb.

Someone could potentially have Brawl+ as their first Brawl game. Yes, its rare, but just because someone is new, or casual, or whatever you want to call them, there is no reason to deny their input.

If the WBR acted like that, I could easily see any complaints of "This character is too good" being met with "Youre not good enough" and any complaints of "This character isn't good" being met with "Youre doing ir wrong".

We have to look at everyones input on a case by case basis. While its true that some guy who plays in a tournament every weekend and someone who plays in a small group of friends are going to have different amounts of experience, that doesn't mean that the more casual player should be ignored for being a casual player.

 

[THO]

So we've been playing this new build and it seems the tumble feature sorta sucks. All it really does is add arbitrary technical skill to a section in the game that doesn't need it.
It feels like when you get hit you just go okay time to go to work and span left right until you get out as fast as possible.
We talked about the idea that it makes for a crucial decision point between counter attacking, jumping or getting out of tumble a bit later and airdodging but that same thing can be accomplished simply by making the time in which you can air dodge occur later. In other words, don't make each player span the joy stick every time they get hit, that is mindless tech skill that just makes the game noisy and a lot of work.
You can create the same decision point by just extending the stun for air dodge, but keep or even reduce the stun to jump and attack.

About the whole beating noobs thing, the reason smash is a good game is because combos aren't guaranteed, you don't just space and space and then when you get hit you have set combo like in guilty gear or any of those other fighters. The thing that is great is DI. If you are playing a noob who can't DI out of combos then you should just **** them (they can't get out if they don't DI right and they DI much earlier without DI). This is really where the true skill of the player comes out.

Of course, its a completely different matter if you can't DI out of a combo no matter what, but that is not what we are dealing with.

I doesn't seem logical to add a technical mechanic in order to weaken airdodging out of combos, just make it a none technical mechanic and keep the decision point present. That pretty much seems to solve the problem without having to joystick mash every time you get hit.

 

[Hyrus]

I'm not particular on the argument, but I know an inflamed ego when I see one.

But If You're So Keen On Graphical Cues To Tell Players Stuff, Let's Not Just Stop There; Let's Make All Hitboxes Visible, As Well, So That Everyone Can Learn About Hitboxes More Effectively During (tournament) Matches...

I learnt the collision for hitboxes because they are an intuitive aspect of the gameplay. You're going to get hit and you're going to figure out how far the hitbox goes (and most animations give a pretty good representation of the hitboxes). I played Smash 64 and Melee with friends for years and never knew about L-canceling or Wavedashing because they are not intuitive to the gameplay. DI was something I knew was there, but never fully understood. I was pissed to learn that those years of practice and play weren't even near a competitive level as a result.

Your argument has only been that a player should have to work hard to discover the game. And that's bunk. Making the game less accessible only alienates potential players - players of which are not any less valuable to the community. More people involved only means more attention and more success for the project overall.

There's a pretty big gap between hardcore and casual that most people probably fall into, so to try and draw a line based on your own definition is ridiculously narrow minded.

 

[Alphatron]

@THO

You don't need to mash the stick at all. Just tap either left or right. You already move the stick when you DI anyway.

 

[THO]

Yes, but the time why you DI doesn't intersect with the time when you need to tap left or right. DI opportunity occurs right after you get hit, then DI can't be used, then you have the chance to get out of tumble/jump/attack (the time to tap is significantly after the time to DI).
Also the reason for the mash is so that you can keep tapping so that you don't have to be frame perfect on the tap you can just do it till its done.

Also also, i'm pretty sure you can attack sooner in hit stun than you can dodge already that is why in brawl it is always better to attack to momentum cancel than it is to airdodge, cuz it comes out like 7 frames or something sooner and then you can immediately fast fall and such. It would make sense that you can just extend the time in which you can't airdodge because it was already a game mechanic in VBrawl (but i don't really know i don't code).