Brawl+ Beta Build (GSH1) Discussion

[Alphatron]

For character specific stuff, a layman's changelist is all we need. For anything B+ changed specifically I mean.

5.0 would sometimes freeze when you went to training mode.

And nah, the sound on both is fine for me.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

Since the manual is looking like a reality. Let's try to list what the manual should include.

1. Layman's changelist/what is brawl+
2. Basic Controls (should be more comprehensive than normal brawls)
3. Basic Mechanics (should include anything that is universal across characters that wouldn't be under normal controls. Stuff like crouch canceling, short hops, DI, Tumble, and so forth)
4 (Optional) Basic techniques and hints (We could add a section that gives quick and easy universal gameplay hints if we feel up for it. Stuff like approaching with N-airs, when to and not to grab, basic hints on spacing, so on so forth.

Not sure we NEED anything else, but I'm open to suggestions. I don't have a capture card but if anyone does, images would proabbly be very useful.

 

[camelot]

that 'ugh' is when tumble starts.

No, actually, the 'ugh' happens after being in hitstun for 40 frames, it has nothing to do with tumble.

 

[MK26]

oh

really?

wtf

someone lied to me

 

[Shadic]

And this is why we need something concrete to represent to the player the tumble. Even more experienced B+s such as MK26 here will believe something just because it's told to them.

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

I don't see why the visual cue shouldn't be in actual matches. There's no reason not to make things clear for both players as to whether a combo is guaranteed or if it was a reset/string that was landed because the opponent messed up somewhere. Other games make it clear that a situation is a reset and not a combo by displaying the number of hits in a combo when it's over, and this has never hurt mind games in any way, nor has it removed the necessity to know your timing. It also helps people learn by watching matches: no more "omg is this guaranteed?!!!1one" when you just have to watch carefully to know exactly what happened.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

In matches or out, we still have to figure out what the visual cue would be. anyone have any ideas? Like I said I'm really not the most experienced in terms of our hacking capabilities.

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

I was thinking of a white flash all over the character. I'm pretty sure this can be done with PSA (if not in the individual character .pac files, Dantarion has figured out how to edit fighter.pac IIRC).

 

[Revven]

You learn something through practice, if a visual cue is there to baby you through it in an actual match then there is no need to practice because what you would need to learn is shown to you IN the match. I, personally, think it's stupid to make a visual cue like that for actual matches, it is better to just have it for Training mode (just like in vBrawl how there's No Stale Moves in Training mode so you can see how much damage a move does) because it's something you need to remember. If it's given to you flat out in the match, you won't bother to remember it because you'll RELY on that visual cue and thus, nothing is really learned because in your mind you realize "wait... with this visual cue, I don't need to memorize this, just wait for the cue to show and I'll do it on reaction!" You're not really learning and you're not really practicing, it should be something you need to learn to react to off of memory, off of the Training mode that showed you when you're in tumble.

Just like in a Physics test where the teacher GIVES you the formula/equation to solve and you rely on the teacher giving you a formula sheet in order to solve it. Well, let's say the teacher decides not to do that and because you relied on him/her giving you the sheet for the formulas/equations, you didn't study them, and thus don't remember what they are nor how to do them (because you didn't study/practice them just incase like you should have). Relying on something to be there to tell you what to do isn't something we should be doing.

That's how I feel. IMO, if there's going to be ANY cue, it should be a SFX of the character's scream. Visual cues are always horrible, take a look at clanking in this game why don't you and you'll see what I mean. Low SFX = not the best reaction time. Even so, I'm more for the idea of it being Training mode only (the visual of course) simply because that is babying someone into doing it while a match is going on, something you should be doing in Training mode on your own time.

 

[Sulfur]

Since the manual is looking like a reality. Let's try to list what the manual should include.

1. Layman's changelist/what is brawl+
2. Basic Controls (should be more comprehensive than normal brawls)
3. Basic Mechanics (should include anything that is universal across characters that wouldn't be under normal controls. Stuff like crouch canceling, short hops, DI, Tumble, and so forth)
4 (Optional) Basic techniques and hints (We could add a section that gives quick and easy universal gameplay hints if we feel up for it. Stuff like approaching with N-airs, when to and not to grab, basic hints on spacing, so on so forth.

Not sure we NEED anything else, but I'm open to suggestions. I don't have a capture card but if anyone does, images would proabbly be very useful.

I've got a capture card, although over break I won't have it. Anyway, I think we should have teching added to the mechanics section.
Also, you're really right about pictures being awesome.

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

You learn something through practice, if a visual cue is there to baby you through it in an actual match then there is no need to practice because what you would need to learn is shown to you IN the match. I, personally, think it's stupid to make a visual cue like that for actual matches, it is better to just have it for Training mode (just like in vBrawl how there's No Stale Moves in Training mode so you can see how much damage a move does) because it's something you need to remember. If it's given to you flat out in the match, you won't bother to remember it because you'll RELY on that visual cue and thus, nothing is really learned because in your mind you realize "wait... with this visual cue, I don't need to memorize this, just wait for the cue to show and I'll do it on reaction!" You're not really learning and you're not really practicing, it should be something you need to learn to react to off of memory, off of the Training mode that showed you when you're in tumble.

Street Fighter IV has a visual cue for link combos during matches (watch the life gauge closely) and people still have to train and learn to get them right.

You can't consistently RELY on it as it's very quick (if you're waiting for it, chances are you'll press the button too late) but it's there and, coupled to the hit-combo counter, it makes the situation clear. You seem to consider it only from the point of view of the attacker when it can really be used by both players.

I'll reiterate my point: other games are not hurt by similar mechanics, I don't see why B+ would be.

 

[VietGeek]

"1. Layman's changelist/what is brawl+"

Well anything can still go on beta, however...

this is a great time to use the B+ website. Interested parties can sign up to be able to maybe edit pages (Neko were you the one that took my posting rights away? >____>)

then we could get an editor (hell I'd do it if necessary) to keep writing style consistent throughout the entire section.

Alongside everything else necessary for a manual, we could then compile a .pdf and upload it for easy use.

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

How about incorporating a part of the manual in the game itself? The text in the Trophies section can be edited, right?

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Street Fighter IV has a visual cue for link combos during matches

This is not Street Fighter IV.
...
THIS..IS...BRA-*gets shot again*

im fine with the visual cue on training mode and i think its a good compromise....
it would be so awesome if we could make hitboxes visible during training mode if you turn on some option...but thats out of reach and off topic xD

Were there actually gonna be some physics changes in the next build? it seemed like people liked the idea of the jump grav changes

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

This is not Street Fighter IV.

Duh. Straying so far from what makes logical sense in a fighting game for the sake of difference and accessibilty is part of what made vBrawl what it is. :/

B+, and Smash in general, would gain from borrowing from solid, established systems found in other competitive fighting games.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

This is not Street Fighter IV.

This is not Sparta..... I am lost.

 

[ThatGuy]

I know I'm potentially beating a dead horse here, but that's why I feel moving the "UGH" SFX to when the player enters tumble would be the best option. People wouldn't notice as the ugh is part of the game anyways, we just make more utility out of it. It also isn't hard on the eyes like an epilleptic flash would be every 3 seconds (although a training mode alternative would be a good idea). Not only that, but unlike SF4, link combos have set timing, whereas in Brawl knowing exactly when you're entering the tumble is a crapshoot with DI/Damage taken involved. Even with plenty of practice in training with these crazy flashes, I don't think it'll help me much in a real match.

Heck, some people thought the sound actually was attributed to entering tumble, why not make that a reality?

 

[sffadsad]

Duh. Straying so far from what makes logical sense in a fighting game for the sake of difference and accessibilty is part of what made vBrawl what it is. :/

B+, and Smash in general, would gain from borrowing from solid, established systems found in other competitive fighting games.

It depends on the system. If Brawl+ were to suddenly take on the typical stamina system the gameplay would change drastically. If we were to make the combo system the same as those of say Street Fighter or Guilty Gear, the game would change even more.

Honestly, I think a visual cue to tumbling is unnecessary. It's the drive to master something that makes a person better. Competitive players would find the timing themselves, while casuals wouldn't care either way.

I think we should be focusing on more important things right now, like the sudden lack of balance as shown in the 5.0 release and also whether or not we want to keep some things the way they are in this beta.

 

[Bandit]

Ok for all people who don't know how tournaments work:

They are loud. Any SFX you put in the game will most likely never be heard by a player in a tournament. This would be purely a casual move.

As far as the manual goes, I don't know why people want a manual so bad. We have smashboards which explains all this crap. The reason that there isn't too much on B+ is that it keeps getting updated and changed. Writing a guide would be a huge waste of time until a concrete release is put out (I'm not counting 5.0 when even the BR acknowledges it was a rush job).

RPG, check out more of this site and you won't have so many questions. There's even an AT guide in the Strategic Discussion section that explains a bunch of Brawl techs. This would be your manual that you would want. Also, when one person agrees with you, it doesn't mean everyone does.

One more thing:

This game cannot/will not/should not be compared to any other fighter because it is not like any other fighter. If you want to compare Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat, go ahead but there is much more to this game. "Visual Cues" in those games are just distracting and screen space in Brawl+ actually matters. No one wants to hear about those other games because it doesn't apply.

I love how this thread is no longer about the beta.

Edit: Non-tournament players should read this. SCOTU's Guide to Playing Competitively

:bandit:

 

[Dantarion]

I am absolutely fine with any subtle graphical effects.

They don't distract from anything, and they won't help bad players anyway

 

[VietGeek]

"Visual Cues" in those games are just distracting and screen space in Brawl+ actually matters.

Visual Cues are agreeably distracting, implication that screen space in other fighters do not matter is hilarious.

I love how this thread is no longer about the beta.

Then you'll just absolutely love Smash Workshop even more because this is by no means a rare occurrence. =)

One more thing:

This game cannot/will not/should not be compared to any other fighter because it is not like any other fighter. If you want to compare Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat, go ahead but there is much more to this game. "Visual Cues" in those games are just distracting and screen space in Brawl+ actually matters. No one wants to hear about those other games because it doesn't apply.

Not to speak for anyone else but I personally found it amusing smash would be placed upon its own pedestal when most smashers also wonder why almost every fighting game community looks down upon them and calls their game garbage compared to their [insert "superior" fighting game here].

Aren't humans ironic? Hahahahahahaha~

Finally, the basic foundations of Smash the superior game and "those other fighters" are rather similar. Both have key advantage/disadvantage points with disadvantage being at polar ends of the fighting field. Both have wake-up games (tech chase/jab resets for Smash) and both types of games reward traditional combos alongside reading to get land more damaging/effective moves that may not be linkable in any other conventional way. Then there's everyone's favorite word: mindgames/yomi.

Agreeable that Smash is different enough that most elements of a fighting game would look out of place, or not work well in Smash (read: move decay), however to absolutely dismiss ideas that were adopted by other fighting games is of closed-minded and elitist.

I guess Smash is called a fighting game because our community is as elitist as most of theirs. ^_^

Moving the "ugh!"/"descending wind" sound to tumble would be a good move to polish the experience and just a minor detail that matters enough for the sake of "good game design," a subtle graphic effect is necessary since every fighting game tournament (yes, even for those "other games") is **** loud as Bandit has already mentioned.

 

[Shadic]

I love how this thread is no longer about the beta.

Yeah, because talking about what to do with the beta is totally irrelevant.

As far as all the people complaining about how B+ is made for tournament level players, let me show you what David Sirlin said about his design goals for when he worked on SF HD Remix.

Spoiler

inb4peoplecomplainingforafightinggamecomparison

1) Make the game easier to play—more inclusive rather than exclusive
2) Make the game even more balanced for tournament play
3) Add fun as long as it doesn't interfere with #2.

Obviously, a small graphic effect done properly would be placed in the #1 here. Although "Making it easier to play," is a broad category. The purpose of any graphical effect like this is strictly a mental helper, not making the game physically easier in any sense. All it does is help relay information to the player.

Does it interfere with #2 at all? Not that I can see. And again, these sets are betas. You know what you can do with a decent idea that doesn't play out well in a beta? Remove it.

Far worse has made it into B+ sets before - Ganondorf utilt cancel, Ness Fair, etc.

Edit: Partially ninja'd by Vietgeek here. Some excellent point(s) I want to repeat:

Agreeable that Smash is different enough that most elements of a fighting game would look out of place, or not work well in Smash (read: move decay), however to absolutely dismiss ideas that were adopted by other fighting games is of closed-minded and elitist.

I guess Smash is called a fighting game because our community is as elitist as most of theirs. ^_^

For all of the Smash community's complaining about not being taken seriously by other fighting game communities, we're sure acting elitist in return. As Viet said, there are many, many ideas that wouldn't work quite right for B+. However, these are still fighting games we're talking about. (Yes, Smash Bros is one.) However, it's not like Smash hasn't taken ideas from fighters before. Let's see... Blocking, cancelable moves, countering, grabs, high/low blocks (Moving your shield.) etc.

Considering that B+ wouldn't even exist if people weren't open-minded, it's pretty sad to see how frightened people can be to test something.

 

[Veril]

A few pages ago we realized the topic wasn't shieldstun tumble cues but was actually hitstun. A few pages ago there was a good idea (having a visual confirmation of the hitstun state in training mode). Somehow we got back to the POINTLESS INITIAL TOPIC which wasn't even the actual topic... which was also pointless after shieldstun was shown to be higher in the Beta..

Having a cue for hitstun in actual matches is only going to happen over my dead body. I already specified exactly why it was a bad idea: it immediately distinguishes between strings and combos. It seems that everyone is okay with it being tried out for training mode, which is a good place to learn technical stuff like combos. Having control over the training mode buffer has been something I've wanted for a long time as well... If only I didn't fail at coding

I hate this thread so much. Please go back to talking about the Beta itself and not random crap.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

The manual would be a constantly updating thing much like the project Bandit.

Yes, you are right, smashboards has all the info you need, except you have to search for it. Even non-tournament players who read that guide get linked to other threads that sometimes link to other threads and so on so forth. The Manual would just put this all in one place.

I know not everyone agreed with me but a couple people did. Besides, the manual really isn't for me. In fact I'm offering to help write it. It just helps make the game more accessible, and it doesn't hurt anyone who already knows how to play the game. It also helps the project be more professional. No coders are going to be taking time away from their coding to do the manual it is totally an independent project. So what's the problem?

Once again, its something that can be done with very little effort that makes the project look more professional and overall makes it more helpful. Soooooo, isn't that a good thing?

Also... if pro players already know whats in the manual can't they just... idk... not read the manual?

Also, I think all of this, manual, visual cues in training mode, so on so forth, still has to do with the beta. This all stemmed from NADT which was a part of the beta, and the future of the project is still very relevant.

 

[ThatGuy]

Blame me for that, I brought up the topic of NADT being an arbitrary tech skill, but I got my answers, and I feel that an audio cue (or visual if need be) would work out fine. NADT is something new and relevent to the new build after all, so I didn't see any problem with bringing it up.

 

[Shadic]

Having a cue for hitstun in actual matches is only going to happen over my dead body.

It's amazing how open-minded you can be, considering this is a friggin' fan mod.

I hate this thread so much. Please go back to talking about the Beta itself and not random crap.

Great job representing the community.

 

[Veril]

I think the manual is a good idea. I even said I'd help write the d*** thing (and I know a lot about this game). Providing information that players who want to step up their game can easily access is a good thing.

The softer, more universal ATs added in B+ deserve so much more attention than they've gotten. Dash-canceling for example.

Great job representing the community.

I loled. I'm not going to support a change I believe is incredibly stupid. If at the next tourney I go to I'm besieged by players who want this change, then remarks like this might make sense.

 

[MK26]

yeah, dash canceling is the ****

i had something else to say, but i forgot

 

[Alphatron]

Er...

I was under the expression that hitstun was based on knockback, which is based on damage.

Now, not all moves inflict the same amount of hitstun. Therefore, the timing for you to wiggle out of tumble will ALWAYS be different. Always. Based on your own percent and the move that hit you.

The idea of any amount of practice leading to perfection over this(visual cue or not) seems flat out obscene. You tumble when you tumble and that's all there is to it.

 

[Rudra]

Moving the "ugh!"/"descending wind" sound to tumble would be a good move to polish the experience and just a minor detail that matters enough for the sake of "good game design," a subtle graphic effect is necessary since every fighting game tournament (yes, even for those "other games") is **** loud as Bandit has already mentioned.

This sounds like a good start for a cue (though I thought that sound was already made for it, though it occurred a little after tumble starts). Or maybe a flashing animation similar to that of a Counter from Ike/Marth (but have it be incredibly brief).

Having control over the training mode buffer has been something I've wanted for a long time as well... If only I didn't fail at coding

I normally trained in VS mode instead of Training mode, but just what is the buffer in it?

 

[skstylez]

I tried the build... of course i still need more time to test everything. WHAT ON EARTH DID YOU DO TO FOX'S SHINE!!! Comon!! you put all that work into giving him a custom, more workable shine, and then return it to the horrid vBrawl shine?? I don't understand! It does not not compliment Shine JC at all!! You have just made it worse when it had potential!!!

 

[MK26]

sounds like you doont have the pac files...

 

[goodoldganon]

Shine back to original vBrawl stats with JC

No, shine sucks now.

 

[FrozenHobo]

so... whatever happened with this?

 

[MK26]

woah

didnt see that one coming

 

[NAMQ_DrunkeNFeasT]

for me the shine has potential, what they did was, make the shine have the same BKB and KBG as Vbrawl, but you can still JC out of it

and, it gimps better than the other one while edgeguarding, I think it's perfect as it is atm (it still comboes into Shine JC Usmash ^^ and also, you can shine, JC, fast fall and tech chase some opponents (depending on their weight and you know my point)

the shine has it's uses and the changes they make, are always for a reason, and this is a buff not a nerf (since it can now gimp some opponents, the other nearly never killed anyone)

 

[NAMQ_DrunkeNFeasT]

so... whatever happened with this?

I wanna try this O.o !!!

where can I get this stage?

 

[Perfect Chaos]

You can't; it hasn't been made yet. But the Spear Pillar that Dantarian is working on: is it this idea or some other idea?

 

[NAMQ_DrunkeNFeasT]

@ Perfect Chaos

I hope he does this , looks really neat, love the looks of it

 

[Dan_X]

Yeah, because talking about what to do with the beta is totally irrelevant.

As far as all the people complaining about how B+ is made for tournament level players, let me show you what David Sirlin said about his design goals for when he worked on SF HD Remix.

Spoiler

inb4peoplecomplainingforafightinggamecomparison

1) Make the game easier to play—more inclusive rather than exclusive
2) Make the game even more balanced for tournament play
3) Add fun as long as it doesn't interfere with #2.

Obviously, a small graphic effect done properly would be placed in the #1 here. Although "Making it easier to play," is a broad category. The purpose of any graphical effect like this is strictly a mental helper, not making the game physically easier in any sense. All it does is help relay information to the player.

Does it interfere with #2 at all? Not that I can see. And again, these sets are betas. You know what you can do with a decent idea that doesn't play out well in a beta? Remove it.

Far worse has made it into B+ sets before - Ganondorf utilt cancel, Ness Fair, etc.

Edit: Partially ninja'd by Vietgeek here. Some excellent point(s) I want to repeat:

For all of the Smash community's complaining about not being taken seriously by other fighting game communities, we're sure acting elitist in return. As Viet said, there are many, many ideas that wouldn't work quite right for B+. However, these are still fighting games we're talking about. (Yes, Smash Bros is one.) However, it's not like Smash hasn't taken ideas from fighters before. Let's see... Blocking, cancelable moves, countering, grabs, high/low blocks (Moving your shield.) etc.

Considering that B+ wouldn't even exist if people weren't open-minded, it's pretty sad to see how frightened people can be to test something.

This is win. MyRPG, your posts are also win!

I see nothing wrong with graphical cues during actual gameplay. It would be a pain in the *** to test if it was in training only. To enter tumble you have to be fighing... So the bot or a friend has to be playing. It'd just be more accessible if it was also in. Regular matches. I don't want to rely on a bot to help me enter tumble when I could be fighting my friend in a versus.

How is it terrible if it shows which are true combos and which are strings? It's not going to help you get out of strings. It will still require practice. I'd like to see a graphical cue-- even something like Marth's counter flash.

A graphical cue will not effect high level play as players will already escape tumble as fast as possible. Having the cue will only help lesser players to learn too. Obviously it can help pro players to understand it better too.