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for me the shine has potential, what they did was, make the shine have the same BKB and KBG as Vbrawl, but you can still JC out of it
and, it gimps better than the other one while edgeguarding, I think it's perfect as it is atm (it still comboes into Shine JC Usmash ^^ and also, you can shine, JC, fast fall and tech chase some opponents (depending on their weight and you know my point)
the shine has it's uses and the changes they make, are always for a reason, and this is a buff not a nerf (since it can now gimp some opponents, the other nearly never killed anyone)
OOOOH how wrong you are! the shine is far far worse, and now they are just letting it remain as an edgegaurd. It was GREAT last patch, it could actually JC combo into many strings of moves (not just upsmash). Now, you are just losing time if you dare JC your shine to tech chase. It will take you just as long, maybe longer, as the shine to naturally cancel. You are better off just jumping into your shines like before. Like i said, the vBrawl shine and JC do NOT compliment eachother at ALL, the brawl+ one did very well and coulda used some improvements maybe, but a return to the original is just stupid.
hmmm you might be right, I'm no fox main I just used him on melee and I definetly know that the move in melee could gimp many characters on the cast by just doing a reflector to the opponents recovery and the grab the ledge
the other shine did not worked to gimp my squirtle friends, Fox (on ditto's), Falco, Wolf, Mario, Luigi, etc, this reflector atm, yeah, you are right, doesn't have the strings, but, I only use it like in melee to just edgeguard
any buff to this move, I would like to see, since in melee it was GODLY with wavedash and stuff, in her yes, it lacks of strings on the stage, but, to gimp it still can be used
(never listen to a fox scrub like me XD, I just used him to gimp recovering opponents XD)
Umm... Falco's fine thank you very much. Perhaps you're in the dark, but Falco HAS been nerfed already. His jabs have been nerfed in numerous ways. His phantasm has been nerfed and in addition it no longer auto sweet-spots the ledge.
hmmm you might be right, I'm no fox main I just used him on melee and I definetly know that the move in melee could gimp many characters on the cast by just doing a reflector to the opponents recovery and the grab the ledge
the other shine did not worked to gimp my squirtle friends, Fox (on ditto's), Falco, Wolf, Mario, Luigi, etc, this reflector atm, yeah, you are right, doesn't have the strings, but, I only use it like in melee to just edgeguard
any buff to this move, I would like to see, since in melee it was GODLY with wavedash and stuff, in her yes, it lacks of strings on the stage, but, to gimp it still can be used
(never listen to a fox scrub like me XD, I just used him to gimp recovering opponents XD)
well, thanks for not startin a big argument or something! lol. I am not a fox main but i had been finding many strings and chains around fox JC. Perfectly legitament, no abuse or nuthin. i even went to the fox threads to seek help! It only crushed me when i read the update notes here. fox and his JC shine were definitely in the right "ballpark", a few touch ups would have been nice if anything. I really have no idea why they would return it to vBrawl, if that remains then i think the JC should be removed because it is a joke
The bolded. I said it because he asked me too tell you guys. I knew it was stupid.
And I wanted to ask, but why is everyone saying that Falcon is bad in this build? He seems fine to me. Not too good or bad. I was ****** with him last Sunday's tournament. I beat the **** out of a Meta Knight with him, haha. I think the guy assumed that he was really good with Meta Knight. And I say this because he swapped to him and CP'd FD like he had a plan... He didn't, lol.
Oh, and Falco's slightly smaller jab won't prevent it from ******. Same goes with his good recovery with Side-B, regardless of auto sweet spot. It's fast, and even when you expect it you can't always stop it. SK92 can camp with lasers, Side-B, jabs, and Dairs like it's nothing.
The bolded. I said it because he asked me too tell you guys. I knew it was stupid.
And I wanted to ask, but why is everyone saying that Falcon is bad in this build? He seems fine to me. Not too good or bad. I was ****** with him last Sunday's tournament. I beat the **** out of a Meta Knight with him, haha. I think the guy assumed that he was really good with Meta Knight. And I say this because he swapped to him and CP'd FD like he had a plan... He didn't, lol.
I main falcon, and FD is my favorite stage (i would guess battlefield is his best stage, also smashville can compliment him well). Still FD feels like a really good stage for falcon because you can use your speed and it's size, aswell as for your combos. He can be very vulnerable though, i am guessin.
Which patch do you mean? 5.0 RC1 people were upset because he lost his increased knee hitbox AND the knee was severely weakened. It took some adjusting i'll tell u that, but he is/was fine. i have not tested enough of the nightly but he does seem better/easier
agree 100%. Only thing is you don't even have to go through the TROUBLE of banning the stages! It is already very hard to pull off, and to be consistent also would be a great task. Goin to sleep, i am glad people are seeing things the same way
I've just noticed that I have to go unlock all the music again though. lolwut. seems PAL and NTSC use different savefiles. is there any way of getting this fixed? or should I just spend a few hours in vs mode on FD collecting CDs?
I'm using the original GSH1+ beta files (from brawlplus.net) as I'm using the snapshot method to load the files through neogamma. I'm not sure what to do because of that. (doesn't help to ask though ^_^)
I'm very certain you couldn't zair directly from tumble in the first place. You had to AD first then hit A or Z. Now you still have a 2 command chain to execute, but it's just different. Just something to get accustomed to.
OH YEAH, I forgot to mention that when we were playing GSH on Wednesday, Zamus could not tether the left side of FD when slightly underneath and to the left of it. Always whiffed.
There's nothing wrong with this information (because it really isn't anything else) being available during a match. Having a situation made clear for both players is not a bad thing.
Huh. you know I realized something. Now that we are talking about this beta, I am relaizing how drastically RC1 is going to be changed, which says something considering it was a release candidate.
Overall, I am curious, what are the major problems with RC1 that this beta is trying to fix. We might be able to get more targeted feedback if we knew the biggest issues in the first place.
Also, as far as the visual cue thing goes, we have argued it to death but I will default to my original statement. Let's just try it out! It's a simple fix that can simply be removed and it won't effect internal game balance or mechanics in any way. That's what betas are for right? To test things. Let's stop arguing about it and give it a test! I don't care if it is in matches or in training but for god's sake lets just try it!
I do find it humorous that the original question of "ADT or NADT" has faded to "Visual Cue or No Visual Cue" I think that is proof enough that NADT was a good move.
Just because someone decided to call it a "Release Candidate" (hell, certain TOs even called it the "Gold Release") doesn't mean it was deserving of that title.
1) Make the game easier to play—more inclusive rather than exclusive
2) Make the game even more balanced for tournament play
3) Add fun as long as it doesn't interfere with #2.
Obviously, a small graphic effect done properly would be placed in the #1 here. Although "Making it easier to play," is a broad category. The purpose of any graphical effect like this is strictly a mental helper, not making the game physically easier in any sense. All it does is help relay information to the player.
Does it interfere with #2 at all? Not that I can see. And again, these sets are betas. You know what you can do with a decent idea that doesn't play out well in a beta? Remove it.
My only concern with any graphical effect is that it might become annoying to seeing it repeatedly. This thing is going to be appearing A LOT in the gameplay. Thus it would hinder your third goal. But thats a big maybe if it is annoying
Game Design/Review is actually my job IRL, and while I won't give out my real name so that my boss doesn't realize I spend the larger portion of my work day on Smashboards...
I mention this because Zair is considered an attack and you know...attacking out of tumble shouldnt require a wiggle. Which is why I believe this should be fixed. :V
@Yeroc: I'm fairly certain you can zair out of tumble without having to AD as I remember doing before with ADT, though I could be mistaken.
Probably an issue with the hacks and changes to the game ... most likely Brawl tries to use some RAM used by the Brawl+ hacks in SSE or classic and locks itself.
(happens to me on classic ... probably gonna have to live with it.)
You can't. Brawl reads z button input as an airdodge when in tumble. The only thing to do is press z twice (only assuming since z airdodge then z to grapple). But why do that when you can do it faster with L/R to A/Z.
I mention this because Zair is considered an attack and you know...attacking out of tumble shouldnt require a wiggle. Which is why I believe this should be fixed. :V
@Yeroc: I'm fairly certain you can zair out of tumble without having to AD as I remember doing before with ADT, though I could be mistaken.
Remember, Z is a macro of Shield and Attack. As Zair is too. Any control changed to "Grab" will become that macro. Shield is read first, then Attack. Meaning, since Shield is not read, Attack isn't read either.
Duh. Straying so far from what makes logical sense in a fighting game for the sake of difference and accessibilty is part of what made vBrawl what it is. :/
B+, and Smash in general, would gain from borrowing from solid, established systems found in other competitive fighting games.
Speaking of which, I think it'd be interesting if Brawl+ borrowed some mechanics from other fighting games like Street Fighter IV's revenge system. Get over x amount of %, Final Smash can be turned on with taunt (so you have to actually complete a taunt to use it), and use like normal. (With FS's balanced out more of cours)
Yeah, FS fixing is definitely not a priority, and I'm not saying it should ever be, but I think it's a mechanic that would be fun in casual matches, and right now it's pretty lame.
Just something that came to mind when you guys talked about Brawl borrowing from other games, and its "Super" implementation is mediocre at best.
Tap+zair. Tethers haven't lost a thing (still just 2 button presses), they just have to do it slightly differently, and it now requires timing instead of mashing, which I don't see a problem with.
I said it because he asked me too tell you guys. I knew it was stupid. 
