Brawl+ Beta Build (GSH1) Discussion

[SymphonicSage12]

no, I just made sheik more of a fastfaller, speedy type. She's actually pretty slow, currently, for a supposed ninja..

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

no, I just made sheik more of a fastfaller, speedy type. She's actually pretty slow, currently, for a supposed ninja..

you mean yes. you did buff pretty much everything. the only nerf was jump height.

 

[Dan_X]

you mean yes. you did buff pretty much everything. the only nerf was jump height.

I haven't tested his Shiek changes yet. But what I can say is that you have to be more open. By and large people want to tighten gameplay, this entails physics, jump velocities... Heck maybe even other such speeds (like run/ walk speed). Ideally, if this happens, it will be done all at once, thought it's not bad to test a few characters at a time. I'm not saying what Sage did will be officially backed, but you may be seeing many changes like this in the distant to near future.

@MyRPG:
okay. With regards to their NADT sentiments I don't agree. The idea of the implementation of NADT should have very little to do with the idea of options. In my honest opinion, the simple reason it's there is to create more room for human error. To make something less easy. It makes it more diffiult to escape combo chains because it requires actual skill and thought. It's not to make possible new options. It's designed to be flexible in that good DI in addition to a tilt in the DIed direction+AD allows for a quick AD. Messing up your DI, or failing to wiggle (tilt) out of tumble early enough will get you punished, and you'll likely get comboed as a result.

ADing was good too good before. Bering ADing outright would not bring to the game what NADT alone does.

I'd tell them to stop whining, as they didn't know what it was like to play without NADT in Brawl+.

With that said, I agree MyRPG, I too like NADT because I like taking advanatge of my enemy's messups and further comboing them.

As for the feel of unresponsiveness they HAD to have been using zero buffer. I'm willing to bet that.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

Out of curiosity, has the nightly build that you can get via the auto updater been updating since the last big website update? Or are we still on that one.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

the updater uses the latest codeset......

so yes, the updater will give you the latest update.

Again, use your favorite autoupdater.

 

[ValTroX]

Hmm i did some testing on GSH with my friends on friday(finally) and i found hitstun a little low. I liked RC1 hitstun better, maybe one in between works better? That's just my opinion. Other stuff worked great, no random freezes with puff like people say and the characters feel great.

 

[Shadic]

Instead of NADT, couldn't we just make air-dodges laggier? As in, they take longer to start, and add more vulnerable frames at the end, so there's actually a punishment factor to it?

I know this has been done before, but making the nerfs stronger could help, I think.

 

[jalued]

Instead of NADT, couldn't we just make air-dodges laggier? As in, they take longer to start, and add more vulnerable frames at the end, so there's actually a punishment factor to it?

I know this has been done before, but making the nerfs stronger could help, I think.

didnt they just reduce the number of frames for the airdodge? i cant remember startup being tampered with. Would support this if it worked lol

 

[Revven]

Messing with startup also messes with SHAD approaches fyi which would also mess with Zair approaches that you oh so Link mains love (I see you guys ADing first and then doing the Zair soooo yeah).

 

[Alphatron]

Only in tumble.

 

[Shadic]

Messing with startup also messes with SHAD approaches fyi which would also mess with Zair approaches that you oh so Link mains love (I see you guys ADing first and then doing the Zair soooo yeah).

Would that be because they're doing R+A? If so, they need to learn to press Z.

 

[Alphatron]

^No, its because zairing out of airdodge is safe as hell.

 

[Revven]

Would that be because they're doing R+A? If so, they need to learn to press Z.

Z is horrible for doing Zair... in comparison to R+A. And what Alphatron said.

Regardless, it would hurt SHAD, which is a huge thing for some characters to get through projectiles or walls of Fairs (*cough* MARF *cough*) who already have trouble against stuff like that (especially fatties).

Startup lag isn't a good solution unless you can differentiate coming out of the tumble and doing it on your own free will. Even then though, if you're out of the tumble, like by jumping and the startup lag only affects coming out of tumble that doesn't solve the problem of when you jump out of the tumble and then AD. Thus we'd be back at square one where SHAD gets hurt.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Hmm i did some testing on GSH with my friends on friday(finally) and i found hitstun a little low. I liked RC1 hitstun better, maybe one in between works better? That's just my opinion. Other stuff worked great, no random freezes with puff like people say and the characters feel great.

The hitstun is .46...only two points lower than .48....


I get random freezes with jigglypuff plus random pokey

 

[JCaesar]

We're only trying to nerf the use of AD to escape combos/strings, not all its other uses. NADT accomplishes this, and at the same time makes it skill-based, since the more skilled player will be able to time the tap+AD better and thus escape strings better.

I suppose giving an AD out of tumble a ****ton of startup lag (so that tap+AD is still significantly better) wouldn't be a terrible compromise, but I feel like the only reason people even want that is because they're too **** lazy to do anything other than mash AD to escape strings. Actually, this might not be a half-bad idea, so you get punished for mashing tap+AD too instead of timing it correctly ... hmmm

Cmon people, it's not like NADT is some radical, never-before-seen game mechanic.

Hmm i did some testing on GSH with my friends on friday(finally) and i found hitstun a little low. I liked RC1 hitstun better, maybe one in between works better? That's just my opinion. Other stuff worked great, no random freezes with puff like people say and the characters feel great.

The lower hitstun shouldn't be a problem after we polish up the physics.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Eh, I don't know whether to like NADT or not, so I'll just leave that issue alone.

What my main beef with all the codesets so far is the physics and game speed.

IMO the peaks of short hops, jumps, and double jumps need to be reached faster, gravity still needs to be increased a little, and just everything faster in general (WHICH I know is apparently impossible to do right now).

 

[MK26]

would changing ad startup from 3 frames to 6 really wreck SHAD approaches? all you'd need to do is AD 1/20th of a second earlier <_< >_>

And i never knew that you needed to have started your ad invincibility to be able to zair...probably because that isnt true

 

[SymphonicSage12]

yes, 3 frames would matter. That might the difference between getting faired by marth or not. :V



And I have no idea on the needing to get to the invincibility to be able to zair..... but I think that might be true?

 

[Bandit]

would changing ad startup from 3 frames to 6 really wreck SHAD approaches? all you'd need to do is AD 1/20th of a second earlier <_< >_>

If you add 3 more frames to AD start-up, Zelda's dins (and other projectiles) will become unavoidable.

If you want a camping spam fest, then you add more frames to the start-up. It won't hurt my feelings since it will boost my character big time.

Next time you start really campaigning for a change, actually think about what it affects.

 

[MK26]

yes, 3 frames would matter. That might the difference between getting faired by marth or not. :V



And I have no idea on the needing to get to the invincibility to be able to zair..... but I think that might be true?

wait...why are you SHADing to approach marth anyways?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

He was saying for characters that have no other option than to approach marth that way.

 

[Swordplay]

We're only trying to nerf the use of AD to escape combos/strings, not all its other uses. NADT accomplishes this, and at the same time makes it skill-based, since the more skilled player will be able to time the tap+AD better and thus escape strings better.

I suppose giving an AD out of tumble a ****ton of startup lag (so that tap+AD is still significantly better) wouldn't be a terrible compromise, but I feel like the only reason people even want that is because they're too **** lazy to do anything other than mash AD to escape strings. Actually, this might not be a half-bad idea, so you get punished for mashing tap+AD too instead of timing it correctly ... hmmm

Cmon people, it's not like NADT is some radical, never-before-seen game mechanic.

THIS!!!!!!!! (People must listen to you more than me, I've tried saying this before)

Seriously, if people are just going to mash wiggle instead of AD which it seems people are then THIS is the way to fix it.

This way, they get punished if they hit AD incorrectly. It forces people to wiggle if they want to escape combos but allows them to hit a button if they are in a position where they couldn't be combo'd anyway (Say hit vertically high)

Instead of mashing a button, it makes you coordinate wiggle WITH AD. It brings more coordination, thus more room for skill and human error. Plus it won't piss off a lot of people who would rather mash AD and take the hit. This is the kind of thing I wanted to so, it adds depth to the NADT idea instead of simply debating whether its good or not.

 

[Shadic]

Next time you start really campaigning for a change, actually think about what it affects.

It's more like, "Tossing out general ideas." Thanks for playing, though.

And as for general game mechanics ruining certain things/making others overpowered... Couldn't we just alter those?

Also, I don't see how 3 frames could make Din's Fire unavoidable, but okay.

 

[CountKaiser]

I agree with JC's idea, I also agree that this game needs moar gravity in general, and Bandit seems to be rather vindictive lately.

 

[MK26]

and it wouldnt even be a change in overall invincibility...it'd go from, say, 3-19 to 6-22 without chaning the overall length

I personally think it would be good for the game if we universally nerfed the defensive option...instead of baiting and punishing ad's, some charcters would be able to beat them out

EDIT: wut@bandit
its called using any aerial you have to cancel it out
6 frames is still below the threshold for human reflexes

EDITEDIT: loloolollol its called shielding

 

[Alphatron]

Adding universal lag to AD startups is a bad idea that adds unnecessary tech skill to the game.


I can actually argue for this because all it does is throw off players and annoy them before they adapt to the new typing. Human error won't even be a big factor.

The laggy AD while in tumble is good though. But how would we go about doing this? Seems about as hard to implement as 64 taunt cancelling...having actions change under certain animations and all.

 

[Bandit]

It's more like, "Tossing out general ideas." Thanks for playing, though.

And as for general game mechanics ruining certain things/making others overpowered... Couldn't we just alter those?

Also, I don't see how 3 frames could make Din's Fire unavoidable, but okay.

No, he's been adding this to the bottom of his posts for a few days now which is campaigning. "Thanks for playing"? Really? That's all you can come up with?

Yes, tell the coders that you are going to change how air dodge works, so now every move in the game has to be evaluated because of how much it destroys the new mechanics. I'm sure they will love you.

I could play you and prove it, but you'll never convince the BR to make the change in the first place. This is why they make decisions about the game.

:bandit:

Edit @ MK

Not every aerial beats dins, and I can bait the attack's strong hit box then release and hit you. You obviously don't play a Zelda.

And reflexes have nothing to do about it. I'm firing something at you. You have to see it and react. The reaction time argument makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Shadic]

3 frames is 1/20th of a second. You honestly think that'll make Din's Fire broken?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I agree with JC's idea.

Also, as stated, gravity needs to be higher, jump peaks needs to be reached faster, and everything faster overall.

And din's fire would certainly not be "unavoidable". 3 extra frames that it could hit in is nothing when you consider the blatant obviousness and predictability of the move. " oh hai there's a giant fireball coming at me. I WONDER WHAT ITS GONNA DO!"

 

[Bandit]

Both of you have no clue. If any of that is true, dins would never hit now, yet it does. It is already a difficult move to deal with, and giving AD start-up lag will allow me to use it at all distances instead of just long range.

I won't bother to talk about it anymore, though. I'll just hope I see you at a tournament, MM you, and take your money.

:bandit:

Edit: A lot of you need to learn just how important 3 frames is in this game.

 

[Swordplay]

Sex kick>dins (You worry way to much AD isn't the only option to beating Dins. Projectile characters will punish you for using it to often and speed characters will move around it. Heavies usually have a move to out prioritize it.)

JC's Idea is the best idea in this thread.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

airdodge, or any aerial, fastfall, abuse horizontal velocity...yeah din's is pretty avoidable. Now, I won't say punishable, since a SMART zelda would be far away, but it IS avoidable. Not only are you wrong on all counts, you have to be a ***** to the people that simply don't agree with you. Talk about pathetic.


And yes, 3 frames is important. I even said that earlier...

 

[[TSON]]

Seems about as hard to implement as 64 taunt cancelling...having actions change under certain animations and all.

Dhuurrrrr

Set RA-Bit[200] = true in tumble, after 4 frames of fall animation, Set RA-Bit[200] = false

If RA-Bit[200] = true in fall, 04070100 is set to 0.9.

Easy.

 

[shanus]

Dhuurrrrr

Set RA-Bit[200] = true in tumble, after 4 frames of fall animation, Set RA-Bit[200] = false

If RA-Bit[200] = true in fall, 04070100 is set to 0.9.

Easy.

Don't forget you need a RA-Bit[200] clear in every damage subaction as well. As well as during a tech roll, normal tech, or a hit ground. Or etc, etc, etc. have fun copy pasting that one.

 

[[TSON]]

MMMMMM DELICIOUS COPYPASTA.

yes.

 

[Bandit]

airdodge, or any aerial, fastfall, abuse horizontal velocity...yeah din's is pretty avoidable. Now, I won't say punishable, since a SMART zelda would be far away, but it IS avoidable. Not only are you wrong on all counts, you have to be a ***** to the people that simply don't agree with you. Talk about pathetic.


And yes, 3 frames is important. I even said that earlier...

Add 3 frames to air dodge, and now, you have to start air dodging before the hit box gets to you. This will be a bait and punish situation.

Add 3 frames to air dodge and I can use this at medium and short distances since you can't air dodge through it since that's another 3 frames to add to your reaction to air dodge.

Add 3 frames to air dodge, and Zelda will be a complete defensive wall that very few characters will be able to get through. All people do is complain about her smashes putting up wall (fsmash safe on block and usmash going through most aerials), but if you add dins to the shorter range defense, then she is nearly unapproachable.

If you bring up the use of aerials, I can put the hit box of dins (huge) behind the hit box you have (small) and hit the hurt box only. It's not that hard.

Learn the character before you try to tell me I'm wrong. I could careless what your emotional response is to my messages because I'm simply telling you the truth. If you can't handle it, go find a blanket to cuddle with.

 

[MK26]

im seriously wondering if you know how small a length of time 3 frames is.

When you blinked, just now, your eyelid was moving for about 7 sets of the time it takes for three frames to pass by in Brawl. I'm not saying that 3 frames isnt important, but saying that 3 frames will make Zelda broken is...kinda out there, get what I'm sayin?

 

[Shadic]

And if Din's Fire is too broken with 3 frames laggier of air-dodges, just add 3 frames to the startup time of the explosion! Tada! Laggier hitbox means it's (hardly)harder to hit with, but the opponent has to commit earlier to avoid it!

 

[Bandit]

Never said it would make her broken. I said it would make her fairly unapproachable. She still gets camped hard by projectile spammers.

I know what 3 frames is, and I know how much actual time 3 frames is. All that is well and good, but there are several moves in every characters move sets that are 6 frames or less. There are actual attacks (Zelda has Dsmash, Dtilt, Usmash, Bair, Nair and she has a slower moveset) that would hit before the end of the lag. You are not realizing how long 6 frames are. Reaction time is great, but good players anticipate moves, so the reaction time argument is meaningless.

@Shadic

What are you going to do about the other aerials who all move far faster? Just add 3 more frames of start-up lag to releasing them. So you nerf air dodges, then nerf the living hell out of the projectile people and have to buff them later. It's a big domino effect that doesn't need to take place.

 

[Shadic]

Reaction time is great, but good players anticipate moves, so the reaction time argument is meaningless.

Couldn't you anticipate Din's Fire?