Brawl+ Beta Build (GSH1) Discussion

[Swordplay]

Ya it sucks a lot but tether users have got a lot of help. I watched Monkey's Link yesterday and the way we was able to take advantage of his tether grab as a tech chase really made me second guess if tethers were at a disadvantage. With the end lag speed up, that range is finally being utilized properly without the fear of punishment. And sure tethers have problems like Zair and grabbing people in the air but that range advantage kind of offsets all of their problems. When it comes down to it, Zair users should just be happy they have an extra attack over other users.

So I'll happily take zair getting shafted by NADT for the grab and throw improvements to tethers. They really have brought thier metagame up to par with the rest of the cast. People shouldn't complain that much.

 

[K.Mac]

Oh God, I'm straying from the above topic. o:

But this is serious.

I want to help you guys out with developing the game and codes, so if possible could I get the following questions answered:

Are the current changes all PAC-related? My last post here was ignored; I have to use NeoGamma to boot Brawl+ via snapshot. Bionic Sonic was kind enough to send me a GSH1 beta GCT to get brawl+ to load through snapshot, so it wouldn't be kind to keep bugging him daily for updates to it. :/

That aside, where exactly can I find the most recent beta updates? I want to get all the files brought up to date here - for example, I still get that bug when Yoshi egg-rolls off the stage (helpless fall state). should I just use brawl+ updatifier or something and replace everything except the gct?

help a noob guys.

 

[Rikana]

Speaking of which, I think it'd be interesting if Brawl+ borrowed some mechanics from other fighting games like Street Fighter IV's revenge system. Get over x amount of %, Final Smash can be turned on with taunt (so you have to actually complete a taunt to use it), and use like normal. (With FS's balanced out more of cours)
Yeah, FS fixing is definitely not a priority, and I'm not saying it should ever be, but I think it's a mechanic that would be fun in casual matches, and right now it's pretty lame.

Just something that came to mind when you guys talked about Brawl borrowing from other games, and its "Super" implementation is mediocre at best.

I doubt that's going to happen as some FS are overpowered for competitive play. A code can be made for this but I doubt it would ever be a part of Brawl+.

Oh God, I'm straying from the above topic. o:

But this is serious.

I want to help you guys out with developing the game and codes, so if possible could I get the following questions answered:

Are the current changes all PAC-related? My last post here was ignored; I have to use NeoGamma to boot Brawl+ via snapshot. Bionic Sonic was kind enough to send me a GSH1 beta GCT to get brawl+ to load through snapshot, so it wouldn't be kind to keep bugging him daily for updates to it. :/

That aside, where exactly can I find the most recent beta updates? I want to get all the files brought up to date here - for example, I still get that bug when Yoshi egg-rolls off the stage (helpless fall state). should I just use brawl+ updatifier or something and replace everything except the gct?

help a noob guys.

Just use the windows updater and replace all files. *.pac files are character specific changes. *.gct are the codes for Brawl+ in general. Use the nightly updater from brawlplus.net

 

[K.Mac]

Just use the windows updater and replace all files. *.pac files are character specific changes. *.gct are the codes for Brawl+ in general. Use the nightly updater from brawlplus.net

Ah. thanks for the reply.

But as I said, I'm using a custom GCT which loads Brawl+ via snapshot, so unless that's already been integrated into newer gct files, I can't replace that. (fail for being european)

I'll see what happens with just the PAC's anyway. Thanks. :]

 

[Alphatron]

Just use the windows updater and replace all files. *.pac files are character specific changes. *.gct are the codes for Brawl+ in general. Use the nightly updater from brawlplus.net

He's using the ISO.

Edit: Ninja'd

 

[MK26]

kmac, you have to directly download and edit the txt file (under direct download on the site)
you have to add the snapshot load&execute codes to the end of the txt using code manager or brawlplus tweaker or something similar...or even just use any hex editor to open the gct file and add those two codes (one after the other, without spaces or line breaks) to the end of the file

i prob got ninja'd too, but w/e

EDIT: yay, no ninjas, but i still diaspprove of nadt
airdodges need more startup

 

[K.Mac]

Well, it depends if any changes have been made to the gct since bionic sonic gave me it.

It -is- for the GSH1 beta (i.e. this thread) but I honestly don't know if the gcts have been updated since then. if they haven't then it isn't a problem at all since I don't need to update it.

I also have no knowledge of making gct's and I don't even know what the codes for snapshot are. =/

I am a ninja. lawl.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

Out of curiosity, can someone explain to me how Air teching in the beta works as opposed to RC1 and plain old brawl? I was under the impression you had to wiggle, as per normal and I have been doing as such in testing. Has the command been simplified and if so, how?

 

[K.Mac]

As far as I've seen, it's done by wiggling as you thought.
__

I also just went and updated all the files; I definitely need an updated GCT; PT still stands in the dead centre of SSE-jungle, that says enough. :/

Is anyone here able to sort that out? Like I said, I have absolutely no knowledge of making GCT's and don't even know the code for the snapshot thing. :< (if not it's not a big deal, but there's no harm in asking ^_^)

Regardless it's been 99% solid; not crashed it other than when I had too much data on my SD card and my Wii decided it wasn't going to read stuff from it. still trying to get used to Falco's new SHL; it's a lot different than the last official PAL Brawl+ release. :/

 

[grim mouser]

I still get random freezes with Jiggs and Luigi.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

If its still wiggling, do we want to make it simpler? Or do we still want people do frantic wiggle?

 

[GHNeko]

Tap+zair. Tethers haven't lost a thing (still just 2 button presses), they just have to do it slightly differently, and it now requires timing instead of mashing, which I don't see a problem with.

Weak argument is weak.

They still get shafted. <_>

All I said was that I saw Zair as an attack and shouldnt apply to NADT which really it shouldnt, because it's an aerial attack.

It's dumb beause if you think Zair should apply, so should aerials like Nair and bair and etc, because they're the same thing. Gair, Bair, Nair, Fair, Dair, Uair, Zair do not follow the rules of NADT because NADT is No AD during Tumble.

If I can mash an aerial to get out of tumble, why shouldn't zair apply as well?

It's a fault of how Zair was coded and it gets shafted because of it. :/

To see Zair as okay to be forced to follow the rules of NADT is bias against Zair as no other aerial has to follow the rules of NADT as NADT was never even intended to affect anything BUT ADs.

 

[Rikana]

Out of curiosity, can someone explain to me how Air teching in the beta works as opposed to RC1 and plain old brawl? I was under the impression you had to wiggle, as per normal and I have been doing as such in testing. Has the command been simplified and if so, how?

What's air teching?

As for "wiggling", it isn't really wiggle your way out of tumble to allow airdodge. It's more of quickly tap your control stick any direction once, even gently would do the trick, to airdodge. But, you can always just wiggle your control stick wildly when in hitstun to get out just that this method wouldn't allow a person to learn his/her timing to airdodge out of tumble.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

They still get shafted. <_>

All I said was that I saw Zair as an attack and shouldnt apply to NADT which really it shouldnt, because it's an aerial attack.

It's dumb beause if you think Zair should apply, so should aerials like Nair and bair and etc, because they're the same thing. Gair, Bair, Nair, Fair, Dair, Uair, Zair should not have to follow the rules of NADT because NADT is No AD during Tumble. Not, "No AD or Zair out of Tumble"

If I can mash an aerial to get out of tumble, why shouldn't zair apply as well?

It's a fault of how Zair was coded and it gets shafted because of it. :/

To see Zair as okay to be forced to follow the rules of NADT is bias against Zair as no other aerial has to follow the rules of NADT as NADT was never even intended to affect anything BUT ADs.

You can't glair out of tumble?

I'm so depressed.

 

[GHNeko]

Wording fail.

Fix'd.

 

[JCaesar]

Are you really that dense or are you just trolling now?

Yes, zair was programmed poorly by Sakurai, but it (barely) affects 1/10th of the cast.

When would you ever want to mash zair to escape hitstun anyway? It's not a combo breaker. If you're hit at a low angle off the edge, tethering the edge as soon as you escape hitstun will not save you from a combo since it's not invincible, so there's no reason to be mashing it there either.

Seriously, what is wrong with having to time your zair instead of mashing it. Zairs do not fall into the same category as generic aerials. Their uses are very specific and do not involve breaking combos, so there's no reason to ever mash them. Just time the tap+zair, seriously, it's not a big deal, and it doesn't change anything.

If anything, this is a problem with the input to perform zair, not NADT. You can't really be suggesting with throw out NADT because of a trivial problem like this.

 

[Shadic]

I'm pretty sure he's suggesting that we change Zair, and has been.

 

[Swordplay]

I think hes arguing just to argue because he thinks he has a good point. (its just an okay point)

But when TH said you couldn't Gair out of tumble I laughed hard.

Who cares. Tethers should be happy they have an extra attack and an amazing grab even if the problem probably isn't fixable because it would require changing button input commands, something that hasn't been explored with coding.



Neko, if you are SO concerned with zair characters, which you shouldn't be, then give those 4 characters some sort of special consideration the next time the WBR buffs and nerfs characters. How many times must I say that

but thanks for sticking up for the characters I play Neko :D

 

[SymphonicSage12]

The only thing I don't like about tethers is that you can't latch on to any part of an edge with them like in melee.



Can that be fixed nao


MK26, I liked it though....I just wanted to bring it up for discussion.

 

[MK26]

inb4itsnotmelee

oh wait...

 

[grim mouser]

Who cares if it's like Melee or not?

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

I think the discussion of this Beta has started to peter out ... so uh. have we come to any conclusions at all?

What have we learned today class?

 

[GHNeko]

Are you really that dense or are you just trolling now?

How about neither. :|

Yes, zair was programmed poorly by Sakurai, but it (barely) affects 1/10th of the cast.

And that makes it less trivial?

When would you ever want to mash zair to escape hitstun anyway? It's not a combo breaker. If you're hit at a low angle off the edge, tethering the edge as soon as you escape hitstun will not save you from a combo since it's not invincible, so there's no reason to be mashing it there either.

k. I'm not saying that i would want to mash zair or that anyone should be or that zair should be mashed in the first place, but Zair should be treated the same as other aerials.

Seriously, what is wrong with having to time your zair instead of mashing it. Zairs do not fall into the same category as generic aerials. Their uses are very specific and do not involve breaking combos, so there's no reason to ever mash them. Just time the tap+zair, seriously, it's not a big deal, and it doesn't change anything.

Once again I'm not talking about mashing. Just zair should be treated the same as other aerials because that is what it is. It's arguable that the uses of other aerials are very specific as well. All aerials have their unique uses for their respective character. It's an unintended side-effect and shouldn't just be left alone. What's so hard about fixing that?

If anything, this is a problem with the input to perform zair, not NADT. You can't really be suggesting with throw out NADT because of a trivial problem like this.

And I'm not. I'm suggesting a fix for Zair should be considered.

I'm pretty sure he's suggesting that we change Zair, and has been.

This.

I think hes arguing just to argue because he thinks he has a good point. (its just an okay point)

But when TH said you couldn't Gair out of tumble I laughed hard.

Who cares. Tethers should be happy they have an extra attack and an amazing grab even if the problem probably isn't fixable because it would require changing button input commands, something that hasn't been explored with coding.



Neko, if you are SO concerned with zair characters, which you shouldn't be, then give those 4 characters some sort of special consideration the next time the WBR buffs and nerfs characters. How many times must I say that

but thanks for sticking up for the characters I play Neko :D

Why shouldn't I be concerned for characters with Zair? If there is an issue with how their moves work due to mechanics, the moves should be fixed to work like normal as if the mechanic doesn't apply to them.

It's just dumb that an aerial is being affected by a mechanic that has no buisness messing with it as that was not the purpose nor intent of the mechanic. And the fact that people are okay with that just doesn't sit well with me.

NADT is only supposed to do 1 thing. Nothing more. Nothing less. Having it affect other aspects of a game should not be acceptable and shruged off like that.

 

[jalued]

The only thing I don't like about tethers is that you can't latch on to any part of an edge with them like in melee.



Can that be fixed nao


MK26, I liked it though....I just wanted to bring it up for discussion.

yeah i wish that too, but thinking about it logically, brawl programmed it that there was only one latch point available. To implement this you would have add infinite edges to the stages that only tether characters could grab, and without messing with any other characters recovery.

Oh plus how would it work for Ivy? he wouldn't be able to tether untill at 45 degrees under the edge...

 

[Alphatron]

If you want to zair out of tumble, use your fastest aerial and then use your zair. Especially since some characters have faster aerials anyway.

NADT doesn't affect it at all. At least nowhere near as much as DJC affects tap jump users when recovering. Remapping zair controls is a bad idea unless you can do it properly for all controllers. Having zair take priority over ADs also won't work.

Now...

Yoshi is perfect. But can we get rid of that 40% dmg reduction that egg lay gives his opponents? 20% at leas

 

[Yeroc]

Uh, PSA bypasses the GCT coding restrictions on button mapping by just using "button" codes for whatever action you need.

Also, you couldn't even zair directly out of tumble in vBrawl. If you hit Z, you would just AD. You had to hit 2 buttons to zair then too. Now we've just changed what the 2 buttons are. It's no big deal, if we can figure out a way to improve on the whole Z mechanic we can do that, if not, it really is not the biggest deal in the game.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Attempt at Sheik physics rework:

http://www.mediafire.com/?doku34otjny


Changes from Cape's latest set:


Walk Initial Velocity: 0.2 ->0.35
Walk Acceleration: 0.1 ->0.3
Walk Maximum Velocity: 1.3 ->1.55
Stopping Velocity: 0.06 ->0.069
Dash & Stop Turn Initial Velocity: 1.7 ->2.1
Stop Turn Decelaration: 0.1143 ->0.17
Stop Turn Acceleration: 0.04 ->0.11
Run Initial Velocity: 1.92 ->2.35
Jump V Initial Velocity: 3.37 ->3.34
Jump H Initial Velocity: 1.4 ->1.7
Air Jump Multiplier: 1.1 ->1.35
Gravity: 0.1409 ->0.174
Terminal Velocity: 1.58 ->1.815
Air Mobility: 0.08 ->0.096
Air Stopping Mobility: 0.01 ->0.07
Maximum H Air Velocity: 0.846 ->0.87
Edge Jump V Velocity: 1.4 ->1.6
Edge Jump H Velocity: 3.4 ->3.6
WallJump H Velocity: 1.4 ->1.8
WallJump V Velocity: 2.8 ->3.4

Comment and discuss plz

 

[MK26]

The direct download of teh txt of teh beta hasnt been updated.
i wouldnt be surprised if the same went for the pac files





on an unrelated note, what changes are present in the common3?

 

[VietGeek]

common3:

less kbg on link's bombs
less bkb on zss suit pieces

you could always extract the latest .gct like i did when i compiled the toon link test in the TL+ thread. <_<

 

[MK26]

i like mah txts, is that a problem?

Ive downloaded and saved a gct and txt of every codeset since beta 3.2 (except some of the daily nightlies) and i dont intend on stopping taht now

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

So, just came back from a tourney held down at Rutgers New Brunswick that I organized to coincide with their anime convention Mokucon. I was down there to provide a comedy bit anyway, and the rutgers smash community has always been very active so it was a great opportunity to look up some old connections and get something started. Used Beta set, had around 60 entrants most were new to Brawl+ but many were veteran melee players. A couple observations.

1. NADT was received EXCEEDINGLY poorly. In fact it got a gigantic crowd boo. Once I explained the theory behind it, a local Marth player demonstrated how rampant hammering of the trigger to air dodge out of combos has just become rampant hammering and stick wiggling. Overall, the crowd response seemed to "Why make it more complicated" people can wiggle to air dodge just as quick as they could rampantly hammer a trigger to do so, and anyone who is going to use another option (attakcing out, jumping out) can still do that, and would have done it even if you could air dodge during tumble. (For the record, I still support NADT, I'm a combo nut.)

2. ALR was received extremely well, as was buffer, but I got a couple comments about how characters felt unresponsive after they landed. Not entirely sure what that is attributed to.

3. A few people complained about all chain grabs being removed, but overall people were ok with that. DDD players had the biggest complaints. Some asked if there was any way to ke4ep them in but have them be escapable.

4. Seven, thousand, Shiek complaints ... except none of them were the same complaint. Most were centered around her inability to kill but I'll chalk this mostly up to inexperience with B+.

5. I asked directly if people liked the percentages they were dying at and most were fine. They were more concerned with the speed of their characters and their characters moves than how long the match left. Many actually preferred longer matches.

6. Squirtle players disliked squirtles Fair but that has been said before to death.

7. Everyone loved the new stages and stage reworks especially spear pillar and the new SSE stage. People were meh about the wifi room and most just chose Final D over it. Overall people were upset Temple was replaced but I assured them that wouldn't be permanent.

Those are my observations guys. Take em as you will.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

So, just came back from a tourney held down at Rutgers New Brunswick that I organized to coincide with their anime convention Mokucon. I was down there to provide a comedy bit anyway, and the rutgers smash community has always been very active so it was a great opportunity to look up some old connections and get something started. Used Beta set, had around 60 entrants most were new to Brawl+ but many were veteran melee players. A couple observations.

1. NADT was received EXCEEDINGLY poorly. In fact it got a gigantic crowd boo. Once I explained the theory behind it, a local Marth player demonstrated how rampant hammering of the trigger to air dodge out of combos has just become rampant hammering and stick wiggling. Overall, the crowd response seemed to "Why make it more complicated" people can wiggle to air dodge just as quick as they could rampantly hammer a trigger to do so, and anyone who is going to use another option (attakcing out, jumping out) can still do that, and would have done it even if you could air dodge during tumble. (For the record, I still support NADT, I'm a combo nut.)
Personally, I agree
2. ALR was received extremely well, as was buffer, but I got a couple comments about how characters felt unresponsive after they landed. Not entirely sure what that is attributed to.
They probably missed something in the codset, or their buffer was on 0.
3. A few people complained about all chain grabs being removed, but overall people were ok with that. DDD players had the biggest complaints. Some asked if there was any way to ke4ep them in but have them be escapable.
They need to learn to deal with it IMO
4. Seven, thousand, Shiek complaints ... except none of them were the same complaint. Most were centered around her inability to kill but I'll chalk this mostly up to inexperience with B+.
It's called gimping....fair. 'nuff said.
5. I asked directly if people liked the percentages they were dying at and most were fine. They were more concerned with the speed of their characters and their characters moves than how long the match left. Many actually preferred longer matches.
hmm....
6. Squirtle players disliked squirtles Fair but that has been said before to death.
I'm personally fine with it...but I'd be fine with a retweak to it.
7. Everyone loved the new stages and stage reworks especially spear pillar and the new SSE stage. People were meh about the wifi room and most just chose Final D over it. Overall people were upset Temple was replaced but I assured them that wouldn't be permanent.
People be hatin' on mah sandbag again? jeez.....also, I love the SSE stage, but I love temple too
Those are my observations guys. Take em as you will.

my opinions in red

 

[MK26]

i love how we all have a soft spot for temple...

either way, ive never had to go to this much trouble in my life to get a new codeset going...someone really needs to upload the direct-downoad files

bte, what's in pfmenu2/sc_title.pac?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

title screen edit? Brawl+ instead of "Brawl" ?

 

[Isatis]

The direct download of teh txt of teh beta hasnt been updated.
i wouldnt be surprised if the same went for the pac files

I started on a script that'll automatically zip & download the PAC to your comp instead of manually updating fighter.zip each time a PAC/GCT is updated...

but the TXT is up to date

sc_title.pac = Title Screen of Brawl changed to Brawl+

 

[Alphatron]

The brawl+ title screen that someone made in my thread(not the one in the OP).

Blastes CLr0 files...

RPG made an awesome post. For the record, I'm beginning to wonder if worse startup on AD during tumble would be the better idea after all. Would make DI more important for escaping combos...actually no it wouldn't.

 

[MK26]

oh so NOW you change it

after i do the whole thing manually



EDIT: airdodges need more startup. taht is all.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Attempt at Sheik physics rework:

http://www.mediafire.com/?doku34otjny


Changes from Cape's latest set:


Walk Initial Velocity: 0.2 ->0.35
Walk Acceleration: 0.1 ->0.3
Walk Maximum Velocity: 1.3 ->1.55
Stopping Velocity: 0.06 ->0.069
Dash & Stop Turn Initial Velocity: 1.7 ->2.1
Stop Turn Decelaration: 0.1143 ->0.17
Stop Turn Acceleration: 0.04 ->0.11
Run Initial Velocity: 1.92 ->2.35
Jump V Initial Velocity: 3.37 ->3.34
Jump H Initial Velocity: 1.4 ->1.7
Air Jump Multiplier: 1.1 ->1.35
Gravity: 0.1409 ->0.174
Terminal Velocity: 1.58 ->1.815
Air Mobility: 0.08 ->0.096
Air Stopping Mobility: 0.01 ->0.07
Maximum H Air Velocity: 0.846 ->0.87
Edge Jump V Velocity: 1.4 ->1.6
Edge Jump H Velocity: 3.4 ->3.6
WallJump H Velocity: 1.4 ->1.8
WallJump V Velocity: 2.8 ->3.4

Comment and discuss plz

so...
you buffed pretty much evey catagory possible?

 

[Isatis]

People hated the blue aspect...decided to download the one that had normal colors

 

[Alphatron]

I think I could make the blue look better if I was able to not make it clash with the Clr0 background. But meh.

@Mch12: It's aimed at increasing overall speed from the looks of it. Can't test though since there's no SD card slot for the psp.