Brawl+ Beta Build (GSH1) Discussion

[ThatGuy]

As a suggestion, you know when your character gets hit kinda far and goes "Ugh" randomly afterwards? Can that sound effect be synched to when the tumble animation begins? I'd much prefer an audio cue over a visual one for tumble.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

I definitley see two camps forming here, the accessibility camp and the "STFU NOOB" camp.

For the record, a game being accessible and noob friendly is NOT the same thing. At the same time a game being competitive and a game being accessible is not mutually exclusive.

Take SF4 for an example. There is a LOT of depth to that game. It is considered a very competative game on pro gaming circuits right now. It is also totally accessible. Even newbies to the game already know the game mechanics right off the bat. Up jumps, both light atack buttons makes a throw, so on so forth.

Now, there is an argument to be made that people easlily know how to jump and throw into smash too, but what happens when you go beyond those into pro techniques. Look at SF4 focus attacks. Their timing and super armor spacing games really define the system. How do you do them? Press both medium attack buttons. It says so in the manual and in the game. No one is saying "SHUT UP NOOB GO LOOK ON THE INTERNETS". Also, full movelists for every character are listed both in game and in the manual so at any point and time all you have to do is spend two minutes to figure out everything a character can do.

All the tools for high level competitive play are given to you as soon as you start playing the game, its learning how to use those tools effectively that gives the game its depth.

Smash is one of the only games in the world that obfuscates basic techniques that you need to know to be competative. Tapping to get out of tumble is not a hard technique, nor is it a hard technique to explain. Still ask any number of random smash or even Brawl+ players and you will find lots of them that don't understand Tumble not because it is hard to understand but because the information simply hasn't ever been presented to them (and yes I know PLENTY of Brawl+ players who are not on the pro level. Brawl+ has a lot of changes that just make the game control a lot better nad be more fun to play, even if you arent at tourney pro level).

So yeah, graphical flash sounds good, and I still say we should make an official Brawl+ manual to present all this information. Making a nice little graphical PDF is way less work than coding. Hell I'll help out!

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Yes, but the time why you DI doesn't intersect with the time when you need to tap left or right. DI opportunity occurs right after you get hit, then DI can't be used, then you have the chance to get out of tumble/jump/attack (the time to tap is significantly after the time to DI).
Also the reason for the mash is so that you can keep tapping so that you don't have to be frame perfect on the tap you can just do it till its done.

Getting out of tumble and ADing is still easy. Tap left, airdodge. Not very hard and it's almost as fast.

Let me try to add to the conversation with what I think NADT really does and why it was implemented.

NADT, I will say, does seem very pointless. Mostly because of the fact that it requires you to work more for your free ticket (yes, it is a free ticket) out of a combo, yet it is just as fast to get out and airdodge. Although, that being true, there is also the fact that now you can't simply press a button every time and not think about doing so, and still obtain that ticket. That ticket now costs you a bit of work to get. It also requires thought. It requires you to THINK.

If you're Uthrow'd by DDD, and he's in a perfect position to Fair or Nair, or really anything but Bair you out of it, you only have a short amount of time to decide whether you're going to work for that airdodge and try to escape without a scratch, call his bluff and wait it out (not attack or jump at all) or attack, or jump. With this, it branches off. The way I see it is:

Did he jump? He's probably going to attack. I'm going to jump and try to evade it.
Did he jump? He might be trying to fake me out and wait for me to jump. I'll call that bluff and attack for a good combo break.
Is he waiting on the ground? He's waiting for me to attack or airdodge. I'll just jump or retreat so I can get away safely.

Of course, there are many more options in place, and many more scenarios, DDD being one that really capitalizes off of NADT with Uair and Dair, both being very useful due to NADT. But, with this comes risk on the DDD's part. If he makes a mistake thinking of what the opponent is doing, he could get seriously punished for it if he does uair or dair.

The same applies to most characters. Marth is a good example too. Utilt, Fair to Uair, both require you to think about what you're going to do about NADT, instead of clicking shield and retreating with your free ticket. It also encourages the player to be a bit safer about their decisions, instead of completely being offensive, and relying on airdodges as defense.

Hope that made sense.

 

[ThatGuy]

I definitley see two camps forming here, the accessibility camp and the "STFU NOOB" camp.

For the record, a game being accessible and noob friendly is NOT the same thing. At the same time a game being competitive and a game being accessible is not mutually exclusive.

Take SF4 for an example. There is a LOT of depth to that game. It is considered a very competative game on pro gaming circuits right now. It is also totally accessible. Even newbies to the game already know the game mechanics right off the bat. Up jumps, both light atack buttons makes a throw, so on so forth.

Now, there is an argument to be made that people easlily know how to jump and throw into smash too, but what happens when you go beyond those into pro techniques. Look at SF4 focus attacks. Their timing and super armor spacing games really define the system. How do you do them? Press both medium attack buttons. It says so in the manual and in the game. No one is saying "SHUT UP NOOB GO LOOK ON THE INTERNETS". Also, full movelists for every character are listed both in game and in the manual so at any point and time all you have to do is spend two minutes to figure out everything a character can do.

All the tools for high level competitive play are given to you as soon as you start playing the game, its learning how to use those tools effectively that gives the game its depth.

Smash is one of the only games in the world that obfuscates basic techniques that you need to know to be competative. Tapping to get out of tumble is not a hard technique, nor is it a hard technique to explain. Still ask any number of random smash or even Brawl+ players and you will find lots of them that don't understand Tumble not because it is hard to understand but because the information simply hasn't ever been presented to them (and yes I know PLENTY of Brawl+ players who are not on the pro level. Brawl+ has a lot of changes that just make the game control a lot better nad be more fun to play, even if you arent at tourney pro level).

Great points. I'd wish to see more of this approach taking place in future updates.

 

[JCaesar]

A fighter.pac injection of a graphical command in a loop would take about 5 minutes to make and would apply to any character in the game, even non-standard

I'm not against a visual cue for entering tumble as long as it's subtle. For some characters it can be hard to tell. I don't see any reason why this is a hardcore vs casual argument. There's nothing wrong with being able to tell what's going on. I don't see it as some kind of crutch for casual players. More experienced players will still be at the advantage anyway because they know when to expect it and aren't just waiting to react to the cue, which would be slightly slower.

While its true that some guy who plays in a tournament every weekend and someone who plays in a small group of friends are going to have different amounts of experience, that doesn't mean that the more casual player should be ignored for being a casual player.

No, casual players shouldn't be ignored, but honestly, when it comes to balance and mechanic issues, they shouldn't be taken too seriously either. This is a tournament game after all, and high-level tournament players have a much deeper knowledge of balance issues, their experience means much more than casual experience, and their opinions should carry much more weight than someone who doesn't go to tourneys.

So we've been playing this new build and it seems the tumble feature sorta sucks. All it really does is add arbitrary technical skill to a section in the game that doesn't need it.
It feels like when you get hit you just go okay time to go to work and span left right until you get out as fast as possible.
We talked about the idea that it makes for a crucial decision point between counter attacking, jumping or getting out of tumble a bit later and airdodging but that same thing can be accomplished simply by making the time in which you can air dodge occur later. In other words, don't make each player span the joy stick every time they get hit, that is mindless tech skill that just makes the game noisy and a lot of work.
You can create the same decision point by just extending the stun for air dodge, but keep or even reduce the stun to jump and attack.

About the whole beating noobs thing, the reason smash is a good game is because combos aren't guaranteed, you don't just space and space and then when you get hit you have set combo like in guilty gear or any of those other fighters. The thing that is great is DI. If you are playing a noob who can't DI out of combos then you should just **** them (they can't get out if they don't DI right and they DI much earlier without DI). This is really where the true skill of the player comes out.

Of course, its a completely different matter if you can't DI out of a combo no matter what, but that is not what we are dealing with.

I doesn't seem logical to add a technical mechanic in order to weaken airdodging out of combos, just make it a none technical mechanic and keep the decision point present. That pretty much seems to solve the problem without having to joystick mash every time you get hit.

Please read the last few pages. All of these points have already been addressed.

This was a pretty ironic sentence though: "the reason smash is a good game is because combos aren't guaranteed, you don't just space and space and then when you get hit you have set combo like in guilty gear or any of those other fighters" since that is exactly what ADT encourages.

Your argument has only been that a player should have to work hard to discover the game. And that's bunk. Making the game less accessible only alienates potential players - players of which are not any less valuable to the community. More people involved only means more attention and more success for the project overall.

There's a pretty big gap between hardcore and casual that most people probably fall into, so to try and draw a line based on your own definition is ridiculously narrow minded.

What does the existence of wavedashing and L-canceling take away from casual Melee? Absolutely nothing. Why should casual players care that there is something in the game which they don't know about or can't do?

All it does (apart from deepen the game at high levels, but who cares about that?) is widen the gap between casuals and hardcore players. What does that mean? It means the players who put the most work into the game will reap the rewards and be much better than players who play for fun with their friends. I see no problem with that.

Also also, i'm pretty sure you can attack sooner in hit stun than you can dodge already that is why in brawl it is always better to attack to momentum cancel than it is to airdodge, cuz it comes out like 7 frames or something sooner and then you can immediately fast fall and such. It would make sense that you can just extend the time in which you can't airdodge because it was already a game mechanic in VBrawl (but i don't really know i don't code).

That was due to hitstun being cancellable in vBrawl. That mechanic doesn't exist in Brawl+.

I don't think people understand that there is a lot more to NADT than just delaying your AD. Go read the last few pages.

 

[Veril]

Fun and depth are not mutually inconsistent. Accessibility and ease of play are being confused here. Anyone can pick up B+ and have fun with their friends. The idea that a game needs to be easy to play AT A HIGH LEVEL to be fun is just ridiculous.

Quite frankly, putting me in the STFU n00b camp is neither fair nor valid as a response to my points. The process of learning a game's details, mastering its tech, truly knowing it is more satisfying to me than reading a game manual for 15 minutes. The smash series has never been something that a manual could encompass, thus the existence of Smashboards. Even Brawl has a ton of techniques that are beyond the scope of the average casual player (DACUS anyone?).

Depth is good. Technical skill is cool. The amount of technical skill required for casual play of B+ shouldn't be an issue for anyone, and at the high level it adds a ton to the game.

No, casual players shouldn't be ignored, but honestly, when it comes to balance and mechanic issues, they shouldn't be taken too seriously either. This is a tournament game after all, and high-level tournament players have a much deeper knowledge of balance issues, their experience means much more than casual experience, and their opinions should carry much more weight than someone who doesn't go to tourneys.

This. JCaesar speaks the truth. To say we don't care about casual players is absurd, but this set IS DESIGNED FOR COMPETITIVE SETTINGS!

 

[Shadic]

Quite frankly, putting me in the STFU n00b camp is neither fair nor valid as a response to my points

Ahem.

Why would we want to make B+ more n00b friendly?

Spoiler

Gentlemen.

 

[Veril]

Lol.

Being opposed to reducing the technical skill required to play ≠ STFU Noob.

Now, back to shieldstun: my opinion is it should be reverted to 5.0 levels because of the ALR changes. Shield comboing from aerials was weakened a fair amount by that already.

 

[Shadic]

Except everybody else agrees that a minor graphical effect in no way reduces the amount of technical skill.

 

[Alondite]

I definitley see two camps forming here, the accessibility camp and the "STFU NOOB" camp.

For the record, a game being accessible and noob friendly is NOT the same thing. At the same time a game being competitive and a game being accessible is not mutually exclusive.

Take SF4 for an example. There is a LOT of depth to that game. It is considered a very competative game on pro gaming circuits right now. It is also totally accessible. Even newbies to the game already know the game mechanics right off the bat. Up jumps, both light atack buttons makes a throw, so on so forth.

Now, there is an argument to be made that people easlily know how to jump and throw into smash too, but what happens when you go beyond those into pro techniques. Look at SF4 focus attacks. Their timing and super armor spacing games really define the system. How do you do them? Press both medium attack buttons. It says so in the manual and in the game. No one is saying "SHUT UP NOOB GO LOOK ON THE INTERNETS". Also, full movelists for every character are listed both in game and in the manual so at any point and time all you have to do is spend two minutes to figure out everything a character can do.

All the tools for high level competitive play are given to you as soon as you start playing the game, its learning how to use those tools effectively that gives the game its depth.

This is the single most important point you made in your post. I'll use a few quotes from David Sirlin regarding his work on Super Turbo HD Remix, as he is well-versed and has a solid grasp of quality game design:

"Let's emphasize good decision making—the true core of competitive games—and get rid of artificially difficult commands."

"There are some players who wrongly believe that this 'dumbs the game down.' Actually, the opposite is true. Experts can perform special moves already, so the changes listed below have very little effect on them. Experts will care about actual balance changes such as hitboxes, recovery times, new properties for some moves, and so on. Making special moves easier, however, just allows everyone else to play the "real" game without needing to develop hundreds of hours of muscle memory just to perform the moves.

"Another wrong-headed comment I often get is that easier controls don't leave enough skills in the game to separate good and bad players. The statement is absurd. Easier special moves don't change the strategic depth of the game at all (and the actual balance changes in HD Remix hopefully increase the strategic depth). Furthermore, there's no shortage of nuance for experts. Does Cammy's dragon punch beat Fei Longs? It depends on exactly who did it first, which means that 1/60th of a second timing is just as important as ever. So is positioning, spacing, the difficulty of performing combos, and the skill of reading the mind of the opponent."

I think that pretty much sums up everything.

Smash is one of the only games in the world that obfuscates basic techniques that you need to know to be competative. Tapping to get out of tumble is not a hard technique, nor is it a hard technique to explain. Still ask any number of random smash or even Brawl+ players and you will find lots of them that don't understand Tumble not because it is hard to understand but because the information simply hasn't ever been presented to them (and yes I know PLENTY of Brawl+ players who are not on the pro level. Brawl+ has a lot of changes that just make the game control a lot better nad be more fun to play, even if you arent at tourney pro level).

So yeah, graphical flash sounds good, and I still say we should make an official Brawl+ manual to present all this information. Making a nice little graphical PDF is way less work than coding. Hell I'll help out!

I bolded your key point.

 

[leafgreen386]

So uh... I'm not sure why this hasn't been brought up yet, but a visual cue for going into the tumble... wouldn't... do... anything. The time it would take for you to react to the cue would be at least 12 frames, probably closer to 15. By the time you AD, it's been over 20 frames since you entered the tumble, as opposed to the 5-7 you could've spent if you had just timed it, or the 10 or so if you mashed. The visual cue will do absolutely nothing for helping you escape strings, and will in fact cause you to get caught up in them more often if you rely on it.

So... why bother?

Someone (Leaf?) came up with a similar idea: wiggle out to AD normally, but if you AD during tumble, you get a Melee AD instead. Meaning, you can AD in a direction, but you enter stun after the AD and are helpless until you hit the ground. This would come with the added bonus of being able to let yourself fall in tumble and waveland when you get near the ground.

Kind of a radical idea, I know, but it's worth throwing out there for discussion at least.

Like gog said, that was his idea. I'm actually not a fan. It doesn't solve the problem any more than increasing the lag of an AD in tumble, which would be less disruptive imo. I am fine with nadt, however.

These things are making it harder to land any decent KO move on people with some characters and leading to longer matches. I'm not saying all the original matches without NADT were 3 minutes and now I'm stuck in vBrawl clock draining matches. I'm saying my matches feel a good minute or so longer and a lot of the match time is now spamming safe pokes till I see an opening. Since we agreed to fix gravity I'm just patiently waiting, not signing songs of the end being near. I'm actually inclined to see if people agree and want hitstun at .47 or even back to RC1 .48. As you can see it's really not NADT in tumble I hate, it's that to get NADT we had to lower hitstun. Poor scapegoats.

GSH1 might actually be at .45 hitstun. When veril was testing hitstun for 5.0, hitstun acted as if the multiplier used was .48, not the .4865 which it was set to. If you use a hex to decimal converter the value used in GSH1 actually comes out to 0.4599999785423279, due to being set to 3EEB851E, instead of 3EEB851F, which would give 0.46000000834465027. Imo we should try fixing that and see if there's a difference (and I mean besides getting placebo'd because we all know how that goes *cough*shieldstun*cough*).

If the discussion is like the title says and its on shield stun.

I've thought alot about this and worked some codes out before and it would be very hard to pull off and be balanced, but bringing back the 64 style shield breaker combos could be an incredible boost.

giving the shielder the ability to sorta DI while still in shield (left or right) while being his by the attacker (using very very hard shield stun positive attack string) and you will have a new type of attacking and defending combo system.

the 64 style was lacking in certain characters could do it incredibly easy (kirby) while with others it was much much harder (fox for example) and the shielder had 0 options to defend. But with the boost of some how giving them shield DI they could counter some shield breaker combos.

but the largest problem i see is how to pull of the right amount of shield stun, giving characters like fox the possability, while keeping snake from being able to do it with nothing but f-tilts.

Just my 2 cents for a long lost game element.

if this isnt the right place or time to post this, my bad. just skip on over.

Well, we were talking about shieldstun, but that has since changed. Anyway, to respond to your idea... shield SDI actually already exists. Furthermore, the shieldstun is already high enough in the game that many aerials have a positive advantage on block when landing immediately after hitting. I don't think we really want to be creating shieldbreak combos again, although brawl+ clearly does encourage shield pressure.

Lol.

Being opposed to reducing the technical skill required to play ≠ STFU Noob.

Now, back to shieldstun: my opinion is it should be reverted to 5.0 levels because of the ALR changes. Shield comboing from aerials was weakened a fair amount by that already.

...huh? Did you read my post that explains how the shieldstun in GSH1 is actually universallly higher than 5.0 by one frame?

 

[goodoldganon]

So uh... I'm not sure why this hasn't been brought up yet, but a visual cue for going into the tumble... wouldn't... do... anything. The time it would take for you to react to the cue would be at least 12 frames, probably closer to 15. By the time you AD, it's been over 20 frames since you entered the tumble, as opposed to the 5-7 you could've spent if you had just timed it, or the 10 or so if you mashed. The visual cue will do absolutely nothing for helping you escape strings, and will in fact cause you to get caught up in them more often if you rely on it.

So... why bother?

>.>
<.<

I'll be the first to say it...it appeases more casual players. Human reaction time will tell you the graphical alert won't do anything since our reaction time isn't perfect. Good players won't use it, at all.

GSH1 might actually be at .45 hitstun. When veril was testing hitstun for 5.0, hitstun acted as if the multiplier used was .48, not the .4865 which it was set to. If you use a hex to decimal converter the value used in GSH1 actually comes out to 0.4599999785423279, due to being set to 3EEB851E, instead of 3EEB851F, which would give 0.46000000834465027. Imo we should try fixing that and see if there's a difference (and I mean besides getting placebo'd because we all know how that goes *cough*shieldstun*cough*).

I'm down for fixing bugs...

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

So uh... I'm not sure why this hasn't been brought up yet, but a visual cue for going into the tumble... wouldn't... do... anything. The time it would take for you to react to the cue would be at least 12 frames, probably closer to 15. By the time you AD, it's been over 20 frames since you entered the tumble, as opposed to the 5-7 you could've spent if you had just timed it, or the 10 or so if you mashed. The visual cue will do absolutely nothing for helping you escape strings, and will in fact cause you to get caught up in them more often if you rely on it.

So... why bother?

You are correct, human reaction time has to be taken into account. The thing is, right now there is basically no cue. Knowing when to tap+AD out of tumble is basically trial and error till you get it right. A graphical cue, even if you can't respond to it your first time, gives you a reference point to time your tap+AD for every subsequent time. It's just that, instead of attempting to respond to some ethereal cue of timing, you now are trying to time yourself to respond to when the flash is coming.

Look at blocking in say TvC. There is a little shockwave graphic that lasts for a very short while. This is when you can push block people. If we, as human beings, responded with 0 information after the little shockwave we would never push block in time. However, we don't. We get used to seeing the shockwave, anticipate it, and as soon as we see any sign (sometimes even before the sign happens) we are push blocking.
'
I digress though. You believe that it doesn't do anyting. We believe that it does do something. Since it turns out that a universal change is relatively easy to do in Fighter.pac my question is ... how is this not a win win situation? If you think it doesn't do anything, then how will including it in Brawl+ harm you in any way? There is exactly 0 estimated value for you.

In fact, isn't this the point of Beta testing? To see if certain changes make the game better? This isn't even a balance or a physics change this is just a simple graphical change. No one's strategies will change whatsoever. No characters will be made better or worse. Honestly, what is the harm of at least giving it a test run? There is no way we will know without testing it. People who thought it was dumb might think it enhances the game, and the people who thought it would enhance the game might end up thinking it is dumb. Either way we won't know until we test it! Trying to shut down out of speculation and fear that it makes the game more "noob friendly" isn't accomplishing anything. Let's put in the graphical flash, test it out for a week or two, and see if it A, does help people, pro and not, Tap+AD more effectively and B, makes the game too "n00b friendly". Then we can decide if it was a good idea or not after we have seen it implemented!

I understand that changes to actual moves and game mechanics need to be shut down before they hit coding, just so we don't end up testing every suggestion to make falcon's knee do 999% damage, but a graphical change? Really it seems harmless to me to just give this a test run.

 

[ValTroX]

@Leaf
I agree that the visual cue is unnecessary since most of us play the game a lot, and still keep our reflexes from Melee(maybe a little rusty). When you play the game a lot, you learn to time stuff, AD being one of them. I personally like NADT and once they agree on shieldstun, i think you guys should start working on gravity and let NADT alone for a while

 

[leafgreen386]

RPG: I like you. You articulate your points quite nicely. You are correct that there is nothing to lose over testing a trivial change. Although I believe it serves no purpose other than as a distraction, there's nothing I can say that makes testing it a bad idea. Basically, I look at the visual cue for entering tumble similarly to the debug mode hitbox display in melee; it's helpful for learning, but you don't want to play with it on when you actually play for real.

 

[twiblets]

I dont suppose the visual cue could be enabled for training mode only? for practice purposes?

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

I don't see anything wrong with the visual cue. Hell, other games have stuff like "Counter Hit", "Recovery", "Clean Hit", "Tech Bonus", "Reversal" and display combos as they happen, it's common place.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

RPG: I like you. You articulate your points quite nicely. You are correct that there is nothing to lose over testing a trivial change. Although I believe it serves no purpose other than as a distraction, there's nothing I can say that makes testing it a bad idea. Basically, I look at the visual cue for entering tumble similarly to the debug mode hitbox display in melee; it's helpful for learning, but you don't want to play with it on when you actually play for real.

Oh ****! Someone likes me. I need to start rickrolling people and talking about how EZmode Marth is ^_^. J/K

I can see how the visual cue might get annoying to some, hell it might even get annoying to me, but we won't know until we see it implemented. I think that very much depends on what sort of visual cue is used. A tiny flash, a shockwave, or something of the sort might be subtle enough, while if say, the Nintendog pops up every time someone goes into tumble, that probably wouldn't fly.

Game Design/Review is actually my job IRL, and while I won't give out my real name so that my boss doesn't realize I spend the larger portion of my work day on Smashboards...

<.<
>.>

I will say that I have been playing Smash since the 64 days and I have never been more excited about a fan-based project than I am for Brawl+.

Don't get me wrong, the fact that I am a dev doesn't make my opinions any more or less valid than your own. In fact, most devs rely on fans on message boards to kick them down a peg, especially when their massive egos push them toward making changes that would actually ruin a game, and I am sure that WBR members and coders have viewpoints that are way more valid than my own in many (if not all ^_^) circumstances, simply due to the virtue of them being involved with this project longer than I have.

I will say this though, a key skill in making sure that any game development project works is the ability to step back and look at your own opinions from someone else's viewpoint. In the end what individual people want from this game doesn't matter. The goal (if I am not mistaken) is to create a finished project that is the best Brawl it could possibly be for the tournament community. I just urge you guys to remember that the tournament community doesn't only include current pro level tournament players, but n00bs and intermediates that want to some day become pro level tournament players. Without them the tournament community would never grow.

... that being said I think it would be an awesome idea if we made the Nintendog pop up every time someone enters tumble!!!!!!!!!1111one

 

[Veril]

@RPG: Your last post made a lot more sense to me than the previous ones. The whole tech-skill argument distracted me... a lot.

The visual cue for entering the tumble state would actually be really useful for testing. Right now though, I see no problem with people learning tumble duration by trial and error / being a math ninja. If we are going to try and implement this, I'd want it to be as subtle as possible. I don't need it, nobody really needs it, so I'd want it to be as unobtrusive as possible.

How exactly would that balance be found? What would the cue be? Its important to note that bkb induced hitstun does not have any distinctive visual cue (at least this is what my testing has indicated).

I just urge you guys to remember that the tournament community doesn't only include current pro level tournament players, but n00bs and intermediates that want to some day become pro level tournament players. Without them the tournament community would never grow.

I spend a lot of time helping out, playing with, and training newer players as well as providing hard data to those who can interpret and use it. Anyone who's spent time with me will tell you this. Why do we need to add distracting cues to something most of these newer players should be able to learn fairly easily, especially with some help?

 

[Bandit]

I just urge you guys to remember that the tournament community doesn't only include current pro level tournament players, but n00bs and intermediates that want to some day become pro level tournament players. Without them the tournament community would never grow.

Do you know how those noobs and intermediates learn to become good pro level tournament players? They go to tournaments and play pro level tournament players. They play matches on the side; they money match people; they play crew battles; they go befriend the community and go to their smashfest and play for free. Best part is new players are encouraged to join in and get better and plenty of people will give advice.

Training.

Not stupid gimmicky visual cues or some over-bloated game manual.

:bandit:

PS - Just about every character has a tumbling animation; there's your visual cue. Seriously, why is this even being discussed?

 

[GHNeko]

I've said that plenty of times. Tumble = visual cue. It's different than hitstun.

rofl this thread

 

[IC3R]

Kirby still feels fun to play.

(Tumble = Visual Cue) +1

 

[Plum]

I've said that plenty of times. Tumble = visual cue. It's different than hitstun.

rofl this thread

This...
The animation your character is in clearly changes when you go from hitstun to tumble. It's up to the player to see that happen, and tap their way out of tumble, or jump, or attack the moment it happens.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

@RPG: Your last post made a lot more sense to me than the previous ones. The whole tech-skill argument distracted me... a lot.

The visual cue for entering the tumble state would actually be really useful for testing. Right now though, I see no problem with people learning tumble duration by trial and error / being a math ninja. If we are going to try and implement this, I'd want it to be as subtle as possible. I don't need it, nobody really needs it, so I'd want it to be as unobtrusive as possible.

How exactly would that balance be found? What would the cue be? Its important to note that bkb induced hitstun does not have any distinctive visual cue (at least this is what my testing has indicated).

Well, I don't know the most about the capabilities of the hacking tools we have, but I believe we have two options. We either A, could make it a character tint thing. Make them flash white or something really quick, Or B, add some sort of extra graphic like the shockwaves you see when you get hit. Of course we wouldn't want it to be a hit graphic, that would be confusing so it would have to be something else that we rarely see.

---

Even if we don't end up adding a visual cue for tumble, I still have to say I don't like the tendency for people to treat Smash almost like an exclusionary religion. "There are dark secrets of smash that only the inner circle knows about. To learn these secrets you must be taught by a member of the inner circle. Also you must sacrifice a goat and perform a karaoke rendition of Boom Boom Pow by the Black Eyed peas."

Why? What is the damage in providing players the tools they need to get better. Yes, there will never be a substitute to training. You are right Bandit, that is what is going to make people get better. Training. Getting their ***** out there and getting RL game experience. Just like anything else practice makes perfect. I am not arguing about making Brawl+ become a game that you don't need to practice to get better at. I am arguing for Brawl+ to succeed where other smashes have failed by telling players what they can do in the first place!

What other game withholds information from you when you start playing it other than like Mao or Warioware? What is the harm in simply helping players know what they want to do. Like I said before, I can see the "the graphical cue can be a distraction" argument for a visual cue showing tumble, but once again ... what is the harm in testing? We can take it out if it sucks! More to the point, the fact that people are arguing against a manual that tells players the simple mechanics of the game is .. well it is unfathomable to me. What possible harm could THIS do!?! In fact, what does this do at all other than tell people how to play!?!

Someone made an argument a while back that anyone playing Brawl+ will already be at a level at which they don't need a manual. This simply isn't true. brawl+ is spreading like a virus guys. It's VERY successful. It's showing up at conventions and tournaments and meetups everywhere. This means that, inevitably, people who aren't at pro level will start picking it up. Like Veril said, this stuff is easy to pick up, as long as they have some help. So lets say we do test the visual cue and it ends up not being what we wanted, fair enough, we don't include it, but why no manual? That is the help! That is the plain English help that new players would need! Hell it would even be useful to pro players that are switching over to B+. It would be a quick one stop resource for any mechanics changes!

Whether you guys like it or not, casual players will play your game. Does this mean we have to pander to them? No! Does this mean we should at least make the game accessible to them? Yes! You guys are fixing Nintendo's mistakes even on the casual level, even if you don't mean to. I know tons of people who play on banned levels, with items, on time *shudder* who prefer Brawl+ because it just controls better. Now, we have all accepted that this game is NOT being made for that type of player, but do we really want to close the door to allowing them to try and become a serious pro player? Do you really expect someone who uses items and plays on big blue to just head out to a tournament and start playing people who could hose them in 3 seconds without having any idea about how pro-play works? Hell, I hate to be this way, but do you actually expect every casual player to have a pro-player friend that can explain the game to them? It just isn't true.

Once again I say we test the visual cue and take it out if it blows or does nothing, which I admit is a possibility. We won't know, however, until we try. Other than that, what, seriously, is the purpose of shouting "NO, NO VISUAL CUE, NO MANUAL!" Especially no manual? That's not even an in-game feature! How could that possibly detract from anyone's gameplay experience? It seems like people are pushing against things that could possibly be helpful to new players for the sole reason of being exclusionary.

I originally brought up the idea of a manual as a compromise to people who thought that NADT was counter-intuitive, and the people who thought that visual cues would be distracting. I said that if we had a manual that simply told people how the game mechanics worked, then they could practice those mechanics themselves without having to rely on visual cues OR through being taught by someone who has already mastered them. Not to mention that having a manual that succeeds where the official Brawl manual fails goes a long way toward making this project look more professional. I still fail to see how a manual, of all things, somehow hurts the pro Brawl+ community in any way, or why there is such a push against it. However, if a manual, something that exists wholly outside of the game, is still not a possible compromise ... hell I don't know what is!

 

[Veril]

I think what RPG is suggesting is a cue for when hitstun ends. Is that correct? The tumble state itself, I don't know what exactly you are proposing be done since its very possible to be in hitstun without the distinguishing visual cue.

@people: Hitstun is more complex than you guys think.



A comprehensive manual would be incredibly long. There is a wealth of character specific information right here already.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

I think what RPG is suggesting is a cue for when hitstun ends. Is that correct?

@people: Hitstun is more complex than you guys think.

Correct. The rest of this post is buffer to make sure that my post becomes at least ten characters long so I can post it.

 

[Veril]

This discussion is not about tumble in that case. Tumble and hitstun are closely related but distinct mechanics. A cue for hitstun states would be a very significant change actually. As I said before, it would be awesome for testing and training purposes, but not something I think most players would want in competition.

Putting this visual cue in training mode would be the s***. Actually matches... no. This is actually a fair compromise because it would help players acclimate to hitstun, but wouldn't be a distraction in tourney nor would it take away the necessity of knowing the timing of combos.



I'm dead against people getting visual aid for combos outside of training mode. It would ruin a huge mental component of the match, distinguishing escapable strings from combos.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

A comprehensive manual would be incredibly long. There is a wealth of character specific information right here already.

Don't get me wrong, I am not talking about a strategy guide, I am talking about a manual. We don't need to tell people how different characters operate. We don't need to tell people that Marth's F-air is a good approach or that Ike N-air sometimes links to a U-tilt.

However "Tumble is a period of time where you can do X, tap to get out of it" and "Hitstun is a period of time where you can do X" and "DIing is when you do X" isn't that hard and wouldn't actually become that long.

Yes there is a wealth of information here, but there is no way for new players to get pointed here. It's not like Smashboards comes with every download of Brawl+. Hell, most people would try to check the Brawl+ forums first on the official site... and well those are barren. Not to mention, though there is a lot of info here, it is not organized in any easily accessible way. A manual would simply put that all in one space.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

This discussion is not about tumble in that case. Tumble and hitstun are closely related but distinct mechanics. A cue for hitstun states would be a very significant change actually. As I said before, it would be awesome for testing and training purposes, but not something I think most players would want in competition.

Putting this visual cue in training mode would be the s***. Actually matches... no. This is actually a fair compromise because it would help players acclimate to hitstun, but wouldn't be a distraction in tourney nor would it take away the necessity of knowing the timing of combos.

Hell, I'm up for including it in training mode. If we can do it, that is. It also seems like it would be a good a place as ever to test the visual cue, just in case opinions are changed and people do want it in actual matches, or want it to be taken out all together. As long as it is in there, somewhere, the game becomes more fair. I think your argument about how this would differentiate between inescapable strings and inescapable combos is a good one and probably the most valid argument I have heard thusfar. That does effect the mental portion of the game and that may mean that putting a visual cue in would be too drastic of a change. However, if we can put it in training mode, or somehow otherwise make it be able to be turned on/off at user's desire, I can only see this making the game better.

 

[Veril]

Regarding the manual: I feel that.

Fine. I'll do it when finals are done. Who wants to help me?


I will fight to keep the visual cue out of actual matches if it actually becomes a possibility, for the reason I gave in the previous post. But... having it in training mode is a great idea (no problem with it being obvious either since it wouldn't interfere with matches), especially for beta testing

How would this be done though?

 

[ThatGuy]

As a suggestion, you know when your character gets hit kinda far and goes "Ugh" randomly afterwards? Can that sound effect be synched to when the tumble animation begins? I'd much prefer an audio cue over a visual one for tumble.

Why am I being ignored here? Is it too difficult to implement?

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

Regarding the manual: I feel that.

Fine. I'll do it when finals are done. Who wants to help me?


I will fight to keep the visual cue out of actual matches if it actually becomes a possibility, for the reason I gave in the previous post. But... having it in training mode is a great idea, especially for beta testing

How would this be done though?

I'm down. It was my suggestion so hell, the least I can do is lend my aid.

Regarding the manual: I feel that.

Fine. I'll do it when finals are done. Who wants to help me?


I will fight to keep the visual cue out of actual matches if it actually becomes a possibility, for the reason I gave in the previous post. But... having it in training mode is a great idea (no problem with it being obvious either since it wouldn't interfere with matches), especially for beta testing

How would this be done though?

Well my guess is the hardest part of this will be isolating it to training mode. How to do this, I have no idea.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

Why am I being ignored here? Is it too difficult to implement?

I don't know if it is too hard to implement. I do know it is easy to lose an audio cue in a game that constantly tosses sounds out at you. Also, it would be unfair to the many deaf kids who play this game ^_^ j/k.

Also, think about characters that specialize in long but escapable strings. Good Marths or Shieks or something. That means that the rhythm of the match will mostly involve getting hit, hearing ugh, getting hit, hearing ugh over and over again. I have to imagine that would get annoying. It would make practically any Brawl+ match a back and forth of grunts and groans. It would be like a porno.

 

[Cia]

I wanna test a few things in this build against actual people.

anyone want to play me on wifi? If so, my AIM is CxOxSxMxO

 

[Veril]

Why am I being ignored here? Is it too difficult to implement?

A visual cue would be better in training mode. Infinitely more useful to me also.

Also I never saw your post. Sorry.

I wanna test a few things in this build against actual people.

anyone want to play me on wifi? If so, my AIM is CxOxSxMxO

I'm at school atm. F***ing anatomy test ate my soul...

Later, we should play. Also, anything you want to test... I may already have tested ;p so we should talk as well... also, come down and visit sometime.

 

[Sulfur]

Regarding the manual: I feel that.

Fine. I'll do it when finals are done. Who wants to help me?


I will fight to keep the visual cue out of actual matches if it actually becomes a possibility, for the reason I gave in the previous post. But... having it in training mode is a great idea (no problem with it being obvious either since it wouldn't interfere with matches), especially for beta testing

How would this be done though?

I'm up for it.

 

[MK26]

Why am I being ignored here? Is it too difficult to implement?

that 'ugh' is when tumble starts.

(btw, $10 says thats another ninty bug...like no clash sounds and DK'S AND GANON'S FAIRS NOT BEING ABLE TO AUTOCANCEL RAAAAAAAGE SOMEONE CHANGE THOSE TIMERS FROM SYNCHRONOUS TO ASYNCHRONOUS )

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

that 'ugh' is when tumble starts.

Really? See I did not know this, nor did ThatGuy who has been here far longer than me. This is exactly why we need a manual. ^_^

How goes the custom stage work MK26?

 

[MK26]

im almost done, but i dont have access to my wii to get pictures
and i have exams comin up the next 2 weeks
so it might be a while
but of the stuff i can do on a computer, im all but done

and i only knew that because someone said it on the previous page (for the 40 ppp'ers)

 

[Alondite]

Ok this is a bit random, but does anyone else get really compressed sounding audio with B+? I played vBrawl for the lolz the other day and when I went back to B+ I noticed the sound was just terrible. Any ideas?