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I wasn't serious about auto exit tumble. I was just using it as an example.
I agree, skill should be rewarded, but I think skill refers to how well you know the theory of the game. Knowing what moves link into what other moves, being able to anticipate your opponents play style, using the right move at the right time and the right defense at the right time, so on so forth.
I can see the merit in the arguments for NADT, so the only thing I want to add is, it should be easy to get out of tumble.
Actually, the best way to solve any of this would be if there was a simple graphical way to tell when we are and are not in hit stun/tumble/so on so forth, but there really isn't, especially if we want the game to be as fast as we want it to be.
My only problem with NADT is that it seems my matches are lasting a lot longer. It also seems like characters with reliable kill setups lost a lot of them, Falcon is the biggest example. Hopefully physics should fix that out so that I can rise quicker to more effectively bait and punish jumps. I'm still on the fence about NADT, the string game seems to be a lot better but I'm having a much tougher time killing people.
It also seems that moves with amazing priority or invincibility got significantly buffed. It's not even worth attempting to combo Luigi and Sonic's spring has to be the most infuriating escape move ever. Either way, I hope fixing up a few character physics should help, because right now I'm not 100% sold on NADT. The game just feels slower and more drawn out.
P.S. As a note to everyone: Every time your character cries out that is when you are out of hitstun. There is a pretty good auditory cue of when you leave histun.
I don't think the goal of balance has anything to do with making all matches 50:50.
I see two main aspects to a well balanced game.
No extremely biased match ups, nothing 100:0, 90:10...nothing that blatant.
At the same time I think it is completely pointless to even consider a game that has all characters as 50:50.
Why? They still all play differently. Fighting games are 1 on 1. It's not like a game like Starcraft where you have a complete matchup triangle at your disposal at any given time. You only have one character at a time, and sure a counter-pick character is going to help you, but not in your current match where you are already at a disadvantage. That's just bad game design, plain and simple. At the start of a match both players should be on equal footing (supposing they have equal skill) and should both have a similar number of viable options available to them
The joy of playing (the option to play) a multitude of characters is that each has their own strength and weakness. Some styles of play will inherently be bad against others. Characters that are super defensive like bowser may deal really well with fox, but can't to **** to a mid range spacing character like zelda or marth. This doesn't mean the you need to give bowser something to deal with those characters, it just means that it is always an uphill battle against those sorts of opponents.
Right, some styles will not fare well against others, but the goal should be to get the matchup as close as possible. Buff the lower character, but not enough to where it has a significant impact on other matchups that don't need anything changed.
The point is that as long as a matchup isn't passed 70:30 or something it is winnable with the right amount of skill. As long as there are points in which you can outplay your opponent to win the match then it is do able, even if the chance of success is stacked 2:1 against you or so.
But the game should be decided by skill, not matchups. Say you have a 65:35 matchup in the opponents favor, but you're the better player. You deserve to win because you are better, but what if you're not enough better to compensate for the poor matchup? Does that mean you don't deserve to win?
I think it is dumb not to have the need ever to counter pick characters. I think that is the reason why Brawl was so crappy in the first place. It wasn't that metaknight ***** everyone, some characters did quite well against him. It was rather that you never had to counterpick when you played metaknight, there was no bad matchup everything was 50:50 or more in MK favor. That is stupid, that is why he was ban worthy (IMO).
Even if all matchups were 50:50 in theory, it doesn't mean all of your personal matchups are going to be 50:50. You are going to be better with some characters than others, and worse against some characters than you are others. You're still going to need to counter pick to win matches.
I would like to see a ground-to- air speedup across the board. Short hopping feels so slow because characters are slow getting to the peak of their jump. Maybe increased fall speed as well, just to speed things up a bit. A universal increase in air speed might help some characters follow-up as well.
One thing I really want is a decrease in edge size. Characters are grabbing the edge from way too far away. It's really annoying.
Wolf's UpB grab range would be the golden standard in terms of ledge grab size imo. Although removing autosnap in hitlag seems to be higher on the priority list (perhaps we could keep hitlag autosnaps and decrease ledge size? Just juggling ideas about; ideally both issues in the ledge game could be managed on an individual basis).
Unkind compared to most but lenient compared to Melee (which is also lenient...**** you Dr. Mario; playing Brawl before it even came out). =V
why do all of you hate edges? jeez...the large edges are fine, horizontal autosweetspots were fine too...at least allow the autosweetspot during the second half of characters' movement, side-b recoveries get wrecked on halberd now
y'all need to learn to edgehog
but i will accept smaller ledges with a ledgetech fix
and if we really think ad's should be punishable, why havent we moved the start of invinicibility back, like, 3 frames?
I wasn't serious about auto exit tumble. I was just using it as an example.
I agree, skill should be rewarded, but I think skill refers to how well you know the theory of the game. Knowing what moves link into what other moves, being able to anticipate your opponents play style, using the right move at the right time and the right defense at the right time, so on so forth.
I can see the merit in the arguments for NADT, so the only thing I want to add is, it should be easy to get out of tumble.
Actually, the best way to solve any of this would be if there was a simple graphical way to tell when we are and are not in hit stun/tumble/so on so forth, but there really isn't, especially if we want the game to be as fast as we want it to be.
why do all of you hate edges? jeez...the large edges are fine, horizontal autosweetspots were fine too...at least allow the autosweetspot during the second half of characters' movement, side-b recoveries get wrecked on halberd now
y'all need to learn to edgehog
but i will accept smaller ledges with a ledgetech fix
Those recoveries always sucked on the stages with moving platforms to pass through (Delfino is the other). The change just made them from mildly usable to don't bother.
point is, yeah, they were mildly useful if you aimed them right
now it's like...you can do it right but still screw up because you arent FAR ENOUGH AWAY from the edge
and 6/7 frame startup on ad's kinda makes sense, no? it's still a small amount of time, but now most characters have an attack that's faster than their ad startup
or we prob can just edit using psa where if you buffer an ad while in hitstun, it gets slowed down
The problem with that is it still doesn't address the core thing NADT is trying to do. Maybe I'm naive but let's not sugar coot it. NADT is a nerf to the air dodge in an attempt to make the other escape options better. With the idea of adding startup frames to your AD if you try and buffer it in hitstun were to be used people would still be air dodging as their primary escape mechanism. Then again I guess you could be mashing jump or attack while in hitstun and that would happen faster then having to wait for the hitstun ending cue and the air dodging.
I really don't know. NADT accomplishes the job it is supposed to be doing so on that end it is a success, I just feel like there is a more elegant solution out there. *shrugs* who knows.
EDIT: Ya side-b's did get boned on a few stages. Delfino and Halberd are the only two I play but I can imagine it on Lylat and brinstar too.
but at least increasing the startup will make people think 'hmmm...im in hitstun, i have an airdodge and i have an attack that comes out faster than the ad...can i beat out my opponent's next attack, do i go through it, or do i jump to get out of range?' because now, nat is just a skill barrier, once we get used to it all itll do is get noobs pissed off. so just pushing back the ad frames (ie from 3-19 to 6-22) is probably for the best
but luigi's nair would require some rebalancing :/
I think the best way to summarize how the newest set feels is that the gameplay itself is much better, but to get to its current level it took step down on the speedometer.
This all goes back to what I was saying needed to be done back in RC1, and even before that. Thankfully others are seeing that it needs to be done too.
The new global physics are great. Lower hitstun lessens the potency of the combo game, and puts greater focus on the string game. NADT does its job. It may seem like arbitrary tech skill, and I certainly see where you would be coming from in regards to that point. However, given the limitations of human reaction time it is going to take you even at the best possible tap+airdodge speed out of tumble a few frames extra to get out of hitstun. Those few frames are hugely game changing.
Anyone who plays Melee knows how big a few frames are. Missing an L-Cancel might only put you in a few frames of extra lag depending on the aerial, like a tenth of a second longer, but that tenth of a second just cost you the stock. We've all seen at least one moment where that one rare missed L-Cancel caused the player to take hefty punishment. NADT puts similar pressure on you. Those few extra frames could put you in the string for another move or two because you tried to tap+airdodge, but were just slightly too slow. This makes the other options out of tumble that much more stronger.
As the player on the offensive I now have to be able to predict not just airdodges, but jumps as well. Depending on the character you also have to worry about a string breaking move. Predict right, get greater rewards. Simple as that.
As the player on the defensive you have a lot to consider as well. I can trust my reaction time to get me out of the string fast enough, but if I'm a few frames off I'm my opponent's ***** for the next half second. I can jump out of tumble which gets me out of the situation faster than a tap+airdodge in most situations, as well as putting nice distance between my opponent and I. Jumping out of tumble when the opponent predicts a wiggle can put me in great position as well. The big downsize for much of the cast is that they just used up their jump. (<3 DDD and the fact that I don't need to worry about wasting jumps) If the opponent predicts the jump and hits be out of my jump then I could end up offstage without my jump. Ouch. Then there's attacks, but string breaking attacks are self explanatory.
Sure, at the highest level of play everybody is going to be able to tap+airdodge quickly. But you can't say it is going to be the absolute perfect timing time after time. Human reaction time is going to prevent that. Unless you can predict the exact frame you will be leaving hitstun and have the wiggle on its way the frame after, you are going to be sitting in tumble for varying amounts of frames. Not to mention the fact that there is going to be a 1-2 frame delay between the wiggle and airdodge as well. Sometimes you can pull of a string, sometimes you can't. Now you have to think over all your options, some of which are better for certain matchups, or situations. Seems like NADT is doing its job just fine.
Now to make the game even better comes down to what I was suggesting a couple sets back. Almost every character should be hitting the peak of their jumps faster. It makes chasing a character from the ground to the air much more effective, as well as making chasing a characters jump more effective. It would keep the effectiveness of the early game combos like RC1, and open up the string game at mid to high percents even further. With characters mobility gaining that much more speed, matches speed up too. Something I didn't think of, but certainly like the idea of is to also increase gravity. Characters just keep coming back when their offstage, because the game is still floaty on a whole. Not vBrawl floaty, thank God, but it still leaves itself open for some very high % stocks. Fast fallers to me feel fine, and floaties are where they need to be (but could survive with more grav), but after playing this set for a good amount of time those in between feel like they need more. Recoveries are still extremely good in B+. The offstage game for the most part is just a way to add on more damage to make forcing a blastzone kill that much easier. More grav lessens top blastzone kills, but for some characters it's either a fair trade for effective gimps, or fixable with tweaking KB values. The game should definitely encourage more outright gimps, and increasing gravity will make being offstage more dangerous, and keeping somebody offstage a much better option than it is now. That can also be largely helped with a smaller ledge, but that's pretty obvious at this point. All of that with the exception of the ledge range is possible, its just a matter of producing the set. Edgehogging was the direct result of so many Melee deaths, and it should be encouraged here too.
And today was the first time I saw Cape's last post
B+ just lost a great player... Somebody who really pushed everything to go this far by having the balls to create the set. Very sad.
The problem with that is it still doesn't address the core thing NADT is trying to do. Maybe I'm naive but let's not sugar coot it. NADT is a nerf to the air dodge in an attempt to make the other escape options better. With the idea of adding startup frames to your AD if you try and buffer it in hitstun were to be used people would still be air dodging as their primary escape mechanism. Then again I guess you could be mashing jump or attack while in hitstun and that would happen faster then having to wait for the hitstun ending cue and the air dodging.
I really don't know. NADT accomplishes the job it is supposed to be doing so on that end it is a success, I just feel like there is a more elegant solution out there. *shrugs* who knows.
EDIT: Ya side-b's did get boned on a few stages. Delfino and Halberd are the only two I play but I can imagine it on Lylat and brinstar too.
Actually why don't you do just that? if NADT is suppose to nerf the AD option by adding a technical barrier to overcome then people will overcome it.
In order to truely nerf the option, you should just had AD's have a very high start up lag if and only if the person is in tumble. This way it becomes kind of like an optional NADT. Technical people will do NADT to cut down on the start up lag but some people who lack tech skill will still enjoy it as they can still AD during tumble even if its not to thier full advantage.
In this way, NADT becomes less like a technical barrier you would want to learn and more like an option. I think the mandatoryness of NADT seems to have some people on edge so its just a thought. (I know it has some major flaws but I'm throwing it out there)
My only problem with NADT is that it seems my matches are lasting a lot longer. It also seems like characters with reliable kill setups lost a lot of them, Falcon is the biggest example. Hopefully physics should fix that out so that I can rise quicker to more effectively bait and punish jumps. I'm still on the fence about NADT, the string game seems to be a lot better but I'm having a much tougher time killing people.
It also seems that moves with amazing priority or invincibility got significantly buffed. It's not even worth attempting to combo Luigi and Sonic's spring has to be the most infuriating escape move ever. Either way, I hope fixing up a few character physics should help, because right now I'm not 100% sold on NADT. The game just feels slower and more drawn out.
P.S. As a note to everyone: Every time your character cries out that is when you are out of hitstun. There is a pretty good auditory cue of when you leave histun.
umm.. How would NADT possibly make the match last longer? That doesn't even make sense. Failure to exit tumble at the earliest point possible means that you're likely to get trapped in your opponents' string longer. Being caught in the string longer results in even MORE damage or an outright KO. Your point works in a reversed fashion. Without NADT matches last longer because it's much easier to AD and avoid the oncoming attack (thus ending the string). This means that the match will be more drawn out... NADT actually promotes faster matches as messing up will result in earlier deaths.
I think the best way to summarize how the newest set feels is that the gameplay itself is much better, but to get to its current level it took step down on the speedometer.
This all goes back to what I was saying needed to be done back in RC1, and even before that. Thankfully others are seeing that it needs to be done too.
The new global physics are great. Lower hitstun lessens the potency of the combo game, and puts greater focus on the string game. NADT does its job. It may seem like arbitrary tech skill, and I certainly see where you would be coming from in regards to that point. However, given the limitations of human reaction time it is going to take you even at the best possible tap+airdodge speed out of tumble a few frames extra to get out of hitstun. Those few frames are hugely game changing.
Anyone who plays Melee knows how big a few frames are. Missing an L-Cancel might only put you in a few frames of extra lag depending on the aerial, like a tenth of a second longer, but that tenth of a second just cost you the stock. We've all seen at least one moment where that one rare missed L-Cancel caused the player to take hefty punishment. NADT puts similar pressure on you. Those few extra frames could put you in the string for another move or two because you tried to tap+airdodge, but were just slightly too slow. This makes the other options out of tumble that much more stronger.
As the player on the offensive I now have to be able to predict not just airdodges, but jumps as well. Depending on the character you also have to worry about a string breaking move. Predict right, get greater rewards. Simple as that.
As the player on the defensive you have a lot to consider as well. I can trust my reaction time to get me out of the string fast enough, but if I'm a few frames off I'm my opponent's ***** for the next half second. I can jump out of tumble which gets me out of the situation faster than a tap+airdodge in most situations, as well as putting nice distance between my opponent and I. Jumping out of tumble when the opponent predicts a wiggle can put me in great position as well. The big downsize for much of the cast is that they just used up their jump. (<3 DDD and the fact that I don't need to worry about wasting jumps) If the opponent predicts the jump and hits be out of my jump then I could end up offstage without my jump. Ouch. Then there's attacks, but string breaking attacks are self explanatory.
Sure, at the highest level of play everybody is going to be able to tap+airdodge quickly. But you can't say it is going to be the absolute perfect timing time after time. Human reaction time is going to prevent that. Unless you can predict the exact frame you will be leaving hitstun and have the wiggle on its way the frame after, you are going to be sitting in tumble for varying amounts of frames. Not to mention the fact that there is going to be a 1-2 frame delay between the wiggle and airdodge as well. Sometimes you can pull of a string, sometimes you can't. Now you have to think over all your options, some of which are better for certain matchups, or situations. Seems like NADT is doing its job just fine.
Now to make the game even better comes down to what I was suggesting a couple sets back. Almost every character should be hitting the peak of their jumps faster. It makes chasing a character from the ground to the air much more effective, as well as making chasing a characters jump more effective. It would keep the effectiveness of the early game combos like RC1, and open up the string game at mid to high percents even further. With characters mobility gaining that much more speed, matches speed up too. Something I didn't think of, but certainly like the idea of is to also increase gravity. Characters just keep coming back when their offstage, because the game is still floaty on a whole. Not vBrawl floaty, thank God, but it still leaves itself open for some very high % stocks. Fast fallers to me feel fine, and floaties are where they need to be (but could survive with more grav), but after playing this set for a good amount of time those in between feel like they need more. Recoveries are still extremely good in B+. The offstage game for the most part is just a way to add on more damage to make forcing a blastzone kill that much easier. More grav lessens top blastzone kills, but for some characters it's either a fair trade for effective gimps, or fixable with tweaking KB values. The game should definitely encourage more outright gimps, and increasing gravity will make being offstage more dangerous, and keeping somebody offstage a much better option than it is now. That can also be largely helped with a smaller ledge, but that's pretty obvious at this point. All of that with the exception of the ledge range is possible, its just a matter of producing the set. Edgehogging was the direct result of so many Melee deaths, and it should be encouraged here too.
And today was the first time I saw Cape's last post
B+ just lost a great player... Somebody who really pushed everything to go this far by having the balls to create the set. Very sad.
Yeah, increasing grav, speeding up jumps, and making various other gravity changes will absolutely speed up the game. I'm interested in testing these changes asap, let's make this happen.
@RPG/Shanus, I too back the notion of a slight graphical sign showing when you're in tumble. Nothing ridiculous, obviously. However, I think this is an excellent idea! Can we try this in the next set?
Actually why don't you do just that? if NADT is suppose to nerf the AD option by adding a technical barrier to overcome then people will overcome it.
In order to truely nerf the option, you should just had AD's have a very high start up lag if and only if the person is in tumble. This way it becomes kind of like an optional NADT. Technical people will do NADT to cut down on the start up lag but some people who lack tech skill will still enjoy it as they can still AD during tumble even if its not to thier full advantage.
In this way, NADT becomes less like a technical barrier you would want to learn and more like an option. I think the mandatoryness of NADT seems to have some people on edge so its just a thought. (I know it has some major flaws but I'm throwing it out there)
I don't understand how it is that many of you are missing the point. NADT is a flexible system, it offers a quick AD if you exit tumble fast enough, and allows you to keep from the string assuming you didn't mess up your DI. However, you can never be frame perfect, it's simply inhuman to be frame perfect on a consistent basis, as such, there's room for error. In the event that you mess up timing more than regular human error, extending vulnerability by X number of frames, you could be caught up in the string again for good damage or a KO. NADT rewards skill...
If you simply nerf ADs in the fashion mentioned it will NOT facilitate what NADT does. Why is this? Simple. It is NOT flexible. You'd still be able to spam AD and buffer it to come out asap. If ADing is nerfed to the point where it becomes a terrible option all together, people would just be FORCED to jump instead. There would be NO SKILL inherent in the technique (or lack there of a technique). There's no reward, no way to AD more quickly. You'd be stuck with what the AD nerf was restricted to, and that's it. Instead of ADing during tumble one may as well ALWAYS JUMP instead of attempting AD. If the AD is simply nerfed everyone is back at square one, and skill is no longer rewarded. You will inevitably be punished for AD limitations (in a fashion as if you had always messed up timing on NADT). This is very stupid.
Guys... I don't know where this mindset has come from, but it's dangerous (and also terrible for the future of this project). The mindset that technical skill is to be done away with-- entirely. There IS merit to some technical skill in the game. Limiting things is fine, but not everything has to be scrub friendly. This actually DOES deepen gameplay, as many of us can attest to. I mean, I personally have found the string game to be a ton more diverse.
Even if you MASTER wiggle+ADing, and can do it pretty quickly.. guess what. You're still human. You still have reaction limits, you can't be PERFECT.
This is NOT arbitrary skill. i don't know why some of you oppose this, it has brought some MUCH NEEDED tech skill to an otherwise technical lacking game. I'm not saying Brawl+ has to be Melee... where techskill was end all be all. However, don't assume that technical skill in a game is bad...
They're saying that its not arbitrary because there are times you dont want to tap+AD and rather use your other options out of tumble.
imo, tap+AD = AD, so the times that you want to use an AD are the times you'd want to use tap+AD and the times that you dont want to use AD are the times you definitely dont want to use tap+AD. The only time you'd want to not tap+AD in NADT but AD in ADT is when the incoming attacks is more than 3-4 frames away from hitting you as a normal AD would get you out of it but the tap that is required in NADT would cost more than the 0-1 frames of leeway you're given in ADT.
They produce the same effect, its just that one forces an AD to come out a few frames later and pro-NADT believes those frames might be the deciding factor of if you get out the string of hits or not.
They produce the same effect, its just that one forces an AD to come out a few frames later and pro-NADT believes those frames might be the deciding factor of if you get out the string of hits or not.
Are you saying a few frames don't matter when comboing? Play better people.
There's a lot more to it than just making the AD come out a few frames later too. If you haven't figured that out yet (if anyone missed it, go read the last few pages, especially the posts by Plum, Orca, Shanus, and myself) then I give up on you. There's no point in arguing with someone who refuses to look at it from the other side.
how bout we try to fix up the NADT code while we work on other things? o_0 (psa can fix any NADT errors no doubt, if we need)
what about crouch canelling...like in Melee when you crouched you would take the hit and not move anywhere if you were low enough damage
that was a great option that i think we can recreate somehow.
like today when i was playing Melee, instead of sheilding my friend's dash attack, i took the hit. crouch cancelled it. and countered back
i think it added alot of good depth to the game
and yeah, more speed in the air, faster to the top for example
and smaller ledges.
and what about from that old AT thread, being hit while turned around you get more damage
maybe we can fit taht in to some other thing... i think it might be hard to do though. :\
Wasn't it decided that crouch canceling was a bad thing the way melee had it?
Anyway, I want tighter gravity, so that characters rise AND fall faster. This would make edgeguarding something worth doing, as I'm tired of constantly hitting people off the edge just to see them float back without the need of a second jump.
Also, pertaining to Ness and Lucas's UpB, I think the wall bounce is still wonky, as I've seen both ness and lucas UpB into the ledge at a 60 degree angle, and bounce back either straight up or straight back in a horizontal line. I'm not sure what's causing it, unfortunately.
Are you saying a few frames don't matter when comboing? Play better people.
There's a lot more to it than just making the AD come out a few frames later too. If you haven't figured that out yet (if anyone missed it, go read the last few pages, especially the posts by Plum, Orca, Shanus, and myself) then I give up on you. There's no point in arguing with someone who refuses to look at it from the other side.
Wasn't it decided that crouch canceling was a bad thing the way melee had it?
Anyway, I want tighter gravity, so that characters rise AND fall faster. This would make edgeguarding something worth doing, as I'm tired of constantly hitting people off the edge just to see them float back without the need of a second jump.
Also, pertaining to Ness and Lucas's UpB, I think the wall bounce is still wonky, as I've seen both ness and lucas UpB into the ledge at a 60 degree angle, and bounce back either straight up or straight back in a horizontal line. I'm not sure what's causing it, unfortunately.
well im sure we can come to a [near] agreement to impliment some variation of it (CC+)
possibly with the use of super armor, and have it vary for characters? like marth being able to survive a 9% damage attack up untill 32% damage type of thing? bleh. ppl can discuss it.
and +1 for the air changes. i dont hink jump startup time is an issue, right?
If possible, the ability to AD during tumble with high startup, or decide to wiggle and then AD normally would be good.
Ledge sizes are fine guys. Unless you only fight Jiggs, you need to edgehog and edgeguard more. I saw someone in the GD say that Ganon couldn't recover in B+ and I laughed. More ugrav would be nice tho. Makes simply floating back to the stage not so prevalent.
Setting a visual cue to let people know they have entered tumble is highly unnecessary. Are we trying to create a game for 5 year olds? Step up and play better.
Noobifying this game would be a crime since it's being built as a tourney game.
Someone (Leaf?) came up with a similar idea: wiggle out to AD normally, but if you AD during tumble, you get a Melee AD instead. Meaning, you can AD in a direction, but you enter stun after the AD and are helpless until you hit the ground. This would come with the added bonus of being able to let yourself fall in tumble and waveland when you get near the ground.
Kind of a radical idea, I know, but it's worth throwing out there for discussion at least.
Someone (Leaf?) came up with a similar idea: wiggle out to AD normally, but if you AD during tumble, you get a Melee AD instead. Meaning, you can AD in a direction, but you enter stun after the AD and are helpless until you hit the ground. This would come with the added bonus of being able to let yourself fall in tumble and waveland when you get near the ground.
Kind of a radical idea, I know, but it's worth throwing out there for discussion at least.
I like that idea. The accidental deaths should be a non issue unless its a cpu. You shouldn't be ADing randomly offstage anyway since that's deadly to your stock.
I don't mind a graphic effect, but excuse my stupidity for just a second. Isn't the fact that you're tumbling a graphic effect itself?
well, if you're wiggling hard enough to escape the tumble animation and then attempt to buffer an air dodge (to avoid getting hit by a ledge guard attack) then you could fall into a freefall state accidentally which while it would be a fault of the player, its punishing them for having fast fingers.
in short, i'm worried about dodging edge guards leading to killing yourself. true, this fear is based on certain instances in remote situations, but that just gives it all the more reason to test/discuss it.
mch said:
lol thats crazy
lets try it out before some people start whining about it : P
we dont have the codes already do we?
I think the best way to summarize how the newest set feels is that the gameplay itself is much better, but to get to its current level it took step down on the speedometer.
This all goes back to what I was saying needed to be done back in RC1, and even before that. Thankfully others are seeing that it needs to be done too.
The new global physics are great. Lower hitstun lessens the potency of the combo game, and puts greater focus on the string game. NADT does its job. It may seem like arbitrary tech skill, and I certainly see where you would be coming from in regards to that point. However, given the limitations of human reaction time it is going to take you even at the best possible tap+airdodge speed out of tumble a few frames extra to get out of hitstun. Those few frames are hugely game changing.
Anyone who plays Melee knows how big a few frames are. Missing an L-Cancel might only put you in a few frames of extra lag depending on the aerial, like a tenth of a second longer, but that tenth of a second just cost you the stock. We've all seen at least one moment where that one rare missed L-Cancel caused the player to take hefty punishment. NADT puts similar pressure on you. Those few extra frames could put you in the string for another move or two because you tried to tap+airdodge, but were just slightly too slow. This makes the other options out of tumble that much more stronger.
As the player on the offensive I now have to be able to predict not just airdodges, but jumps as well. Depending on the character you also have to worry about a string breaking move. Predict right, get greater rewards. Simple as that.
As the player on the defensive you have a lot to consider as well. I can trust my reaction time to get me out of the string fast enough, but if I'm a few frames off I'm my opponent's ***** for the next half second. I can jump out of tumble which gets me out of the situation faster than a tap+airdodge in most situations, as well as putting nice distance between my opponent and I. Jumping out of tumble when the opponent predicts a wiggle can put me in great position as well. The big downsize for much of the cast is that they just used up their jump. (<3 DDD and the fact that I don't need to worry about wasting jumps) If the opponent predicts the jump and hits be out of my jump then I could end up offstage without my jump. Ouch. Then there's attacks, but string breaking attacks are self explanatory.
Sure, at the highest level of play everybody is going to be able to tap+airdodge quickly. But you can't say it is going to be the absolute perfect timing time after time. Human reaction time is going to prevent that. Unless you can predict the exact frame you will be leaving hitstun and have the wiggle on its way the frame after, you are going to be sitting in tumble for varying amounts of frames. Not to mention the fact that there is going to be a 1-2 frame delay between the wiggle and airdodge as well. Sometimes you can pull of a string, sometimes you can't. Now you have to think over all your options, some of which are better for certain matchups, or situations. Seems like NADT is doing its job just fine.
Now to make the game even better comes down to what I was suggesting a couple sets back. Almost every character should be hitting the peak of their jumps faster. It makes chasing a character from the ground to the air much more effective, as well as making chasing a characters jump more effective. It would keep the effectiveness of the early game combos like RC1, and open up the string game at mid to high percents even further. With characters mobility gaining that much more speed, matches speed up too. Something I didn't think of, but certainly like the idea of is to also increase gravity. Characters just keep coming back when their offstage, because the game is still floaty on a whole. Not vBrawl floaty, thank God, but it still leaves itself open for some very high % stocks. Fast fallers to me feel fine, and floaties are where they need to be (but could survive with more grav), but after playing this set for a good amount of time those in between feel like they need more. Recoveries are still extremely good in B+. The offstage game for the most part is just a way to add on more damage to make forcing a blastzone kill that much easier. More grav lessens top blastzone kills, but for some characters it's either a fair trade for effective gimps, or fixable with tweaking KB values. The game should definitely encourage more outright gimps, and increasing gravity will make being offstage more dangerous, and keeping somebody offstage a much better option than it is now. That can also be largely helped with a smaller ledge, but that's pretty obvious at this point. All of that with the exception of the ledge range is possible, its just a matter of producing the set. Edgehogging was the direct result of so many Melee deaths, and it should be encouraged here too.
Well, a slight visual cue really wouldn't be a TERRIBLE thing. It'd be slight, there's still plenty of room for error. It'd just help you to realize the earliest that you COULD have escaped.
It's not entirely necessary-- in fact... it's really not needed at all. It probably wouldn't hurt though. I don't know, what do you guys think? I'm indifferent personally.
Someone (Leaf?) came up with a similar idea: wiggle out to AD normally, but if you AD during tumble, you get a Melee AD instead. Meaning, you can AD in a direction, but you enter stun after the AD and are helpless until you hit the ground. This would come with the added bonus of being able to let yourself fall in tumble and waveland when you get near the ground.
Kind of a radical idea, I know, but it's worth throwing out there for discussion at least.
Twas my idea good sir. If it is a serious idea the community is willing to discuss I'll back it, but right now I have a paper to work on. I'll probably peruse Smashboards for another 5 minutes but I really gotta not procrastinate this
I'll say two things. First off, it won't cause accidental deaths after people know not to AD in tumble when off the stage. Shouldn't take long to learn. The computer won't learn though so sadly Brawl+'s somewhat decent computer players will start to suck. It should also help the platform game which will always feel slow without wavelanding. I feel platform traps are just too good in this game.
umm.. How would NADT possibly make the match last longer? That doesn't even make sense. Failure to exit tumble at the earliest point possible means that you're likely to get trapped in your opponents' string longer. Being caught in the string longer results in even MORE damage or an outright KO. Your point works in a reversed fashion. Without NADT matches last longer because it's much easier to AD and avoid the oncoming attack (thus ending the string). This means that the match will be more drawn out... NADT actually promotes faster matches as messing up will result in earlier deaths.
I have 3 problems experiences with NADT making matches longer. They are:
-A decent chunk of the cast had good options out of tumble instead of to always air dodge. Options good players were using. Lower hitstun just means they are using these options earlier. Luigi's N-air, Wolf's Shine, Sonic'c Spring, Snake's Aerials, Samus's Up-B, MK's aerials, Math's Up-b, and some others. I'm still trying to see if this is a skill fault where I can do better baiting, but I'm having a hard time seeing what I can do differently. Some of these aerials just beat everything or these moves have invincibility which you can't deal with. My opponents are instinctively trying to breaking tumble all while hovering over the ability to air dodge or attack my continued assault. If they think I'm gonna get in there before they can AD it's a quick SPPPRRRIIIINNNNGGG away... (bad joke is bad)
-Gravity for some characters just isn't right with the change. The speed of the game was fine without NADT but now any character with a halfway decent second jump can just jump out of strings from the characters with gravity problems. This can be fixed.
-With many of the people I face having good escape mechanisms and being good at evading long strings the punishment in this game now feels a lot lower and playing the strong defense has become even better. It's not vBrawl bad but I was already busting *** to break the defense in this game (the OoS options are so wack) and it just seems people are getting out too easily.
These things are making it harder to land any decent KO move on people with some characters and leading to longer matches. I'm not saying all the original matches without NADT were 3 minutes and now I'm stuck in vBrawl clock draining matches. I'm saying my matches feel a good minute or so longer and a lot of the match time is now spamming safe pokes till I see an opening. Since we agreed to fix gravity I'm just patiently waiting, not signing songs of the end being near. I'm actually inclined to see if people agree and want hitstun at .47 or even back to RC1 .48. As you can see it's really not NADT in tumble I hate, it's that to get NADT we had to lower hitstun. Poor scapegoats.
My 2 cents, gotta jet
P.S. I've played a ton recently. 4-6 hours of sleep a night to play mass smash. Don't listen to Cape I do test, I'm just a huge negative nancy to change.
Well, a slight visual cue really wouldn't be a TERRIBLE thing. It'd be slight, there's still plenty of room for error. It'd just help you to realize the earliest that you COULD have escaped.
It's not entirely necessary-- in fact... it's really not needed at all. It probably wouldn't hurt though. I don't know, what do you guys think? I'm indifferent personally.
If im right and we're talking about adding a graphic effect at the start of tumble.. then i think its ********... or maybe just the player taht needs that to tell when tehy're in tumble.
its not needed at all
If im right and we're talking about adding a graphic effect at the start of tumble.. then i think its ********... or maybe just the player taht needs that to tell when tehy're in tumble.
its not needed at all
There is an auditory cue already. You guys need to stop playing in hurricanes with windows open and you'll hear it. Doesn't help at tourneys though. Too loud there to hear ****
If im right and we're talking about adding a graphic effect at the start of tumble.. then i think its ********... or maybe just the player taht needs that to tell when tehy're in tumble.
its not needed at all
Now to make the game even better comes down to what I was suggesting a couple sets back. Almost every character should be hitting the peak of their jumps faster. It makes chasing a character from the ground to the air much more effective, as well as making chasing a characters jump more effective. It would keep the effectiveness of the early game combos like RC1, and open up the string game at mid to high percents even further. With characters mobility gaining that much more speed, matches speed up too. Something I didn't think of, but certainly like the idea of is to also increase gravity. Characters just keep coming back when their offstage, because the game is still floaty on a whole. Not vBrawl floaty, thank God, but it still leaves itself open for some very high % stocks. Fast fallers to me feel fine, and floaties are where they need to be (but could survive with more grav), but after playing this set for a good amount of time those in between feel like they need more. Recoveries are still extremely good in B+. The offstage game for the most part is just a way to add on more damage to make forcing a blastzone kill that much easier. More grav lessens top blastzone kills, but for some characters it's either a fair trade for effective gimps, or fixable with tweaking KB values. The game should definitely encourage more outright gimps, and increasing gravity will make being offstage more dangerous, and keeping somebody offstage a much better option than it is now. That can also be largely helped with a smaller ledge, but that's pretty obvious at this point. All of that with the exception of the ledge range is possible, its just a matter of producing the set. Edgehogging was the direct result of so many Melee deaths, and it should be encouraged here too.
This paragraph here is excellent. I think it sums up many of the problems I have with this set at the moment, although the post it's in largely praises the set. Without faster jumps, I find the changes incomplete and internally inconsistent. The speed of the game takes a huge hit and everyone lives to 150%.
5.0 RC1 is more internally consistent, and I would say more fun at the moment. It is its own universe that works well. The beta leaves me feeling like I'm never quite fast enough, never quite fluid enough. Perhaps when sufficient ugrav and jump speeds are achieved, smaller edge sweetspots are put in, among other things, I'll be converted. We'll see.
My only problem with NADT is that it seems my matches are lasting a lot longer. It also seems like characters with reliable kill setups lost a lot of them, Falcon is the biggest example. Hopefully physics should fix that out so that I can rise quicker to more effectively bait and punish jumps. I'm still on the fence about NADT, the string game seems to be a lot better but I'm having a much tougher time killing people.
The matches are not lasting longer because of NADT specifically, but other factors. Falcon does feel very lacking in this set though and that does bother me on a number of levels.
