Brawl+ Beta Build (GSH1) Discussion

[Dan_X]

On topic, what was changed about Peach in the latest build?

As for shield stun, I'm indifferent. I don't really recognize the pros and cons as there may be at it's current level. I'd rather leave that to those more noticing of its implications.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

Well, now that we all have been wowed by the Cape stuff, I say we shift this discussion to "where do we go next".

Personally, I still say there is a lot that can be done. The Beta can keep updating of course, but I think maybe a comparison of RC1 to the beta may reveal some interesting questions of balance and speed. I'll say one thing, I downgraded to RC1 after this whole fiasco out of fear that the project would stop, and I noticed that RC1 is REMARKABLY faster feeling than the beta NTM it felt like characters were much closer balanced before "fixes". I'm aware that fixes need to be made, but I think we should strivbe to keep the same speed and flow RC1 had.

I also am in support of MK26's work with custom stages. I'd love to see that get added to the Beta at some point.

I think the best thing to do is ask ourselves where does the Beta go next?

 

[Shadic]

Increased Ugravity?

 

[Swordplay]

WOW

I really think everybody is taking everything a little to seriously. Here is what I have to say though.



Brawl+ has been KNOWN for making mistakes. This is only natural because as too many cooks can ruin the broth. (if you ever heard that saying) However, this is just because so many people love B+ and want to contribute, probably more than they should. I realized this about 6 weeks ago and thats why I don't post a lot anymore. Sorry that this is a natural part in game development, especially when people have different goals and ideas of what a finalized B+ version should look like. Everyone needs to chill out. Do you even realize how long it took to come around to Kupo's ideas. (implementation of NADT and lower hitstun).

Look, Development takes lots of feed back and the WBR should always be open for suggestions. However, sometimes people feel that the WBR just spins its wheels and can't make decisions. I seriously wish the WBR was more authoritative and would take control more. Also, find a better way to get feedback, run polls or something because the way the WBR gets feedback seems primitive to me. People will be willing to help the WBR out of their love for B+. You just have to have a better structure for their contributions to be worth more.

@ Cape:

(This should probably be a PM but whatever.) Yo man props that was a pimp explosion and I loved reading it. I hope you cool off man because thiis project needs you. I know sometimes it can be very frustrating when people don't listen to you (It happens every day in my real life) but seriously, you have lots of valuable input and experience. No one can force you to do anything though and judging by your explosion your not coming back as it seems you didn't have much fun trying to develop B+.

Look Cape lets be honest with ourselves. The WBR is like politics. You need people to run it and stuff. You need people to run the websites, you need coders, and there is always tedious work. Get this. While skill is always nice, there are plenty of non-WBR yet highly skilled players. AND the WBR seems to know who those players are and listen to their advice. The people do the research and testing while the WBR does the work and modifications. They decide the direction but the community lets them know if they are on the right track. I know your skilled so just be like a lot of us and give opinions without dealing with the democratic ****.


If anybody else read that, Sorry thats how I really feel. I may be off but from and outsider looking in, that is what it looks like sometimes.

 

[Yeroc]

Gravity is already being researched.

I have a proposal that I thought up from some of leaf's posts here recently. Almost directly actually. Since my shieldstun code didn't actually get implemented the way I planned, I think now would be a good time to sit down and get some concrete data in that area that I can use to plot where I should set it at. Towards that end, I'd like to request some help from some knowledgeable people who can do some data collection for me.

I'd like a list of frame data of various attacks. I'll stop short of asking for all attacks, but anyone who can take a little time with the frame debugger and get me some of the more prominently used attacks for any variety of characters would be most helpful. Hitlag and cooldown data for any jabs (the more data you can get on multi-jabs the better), air moves landing lag, and a few tilts/smashes. Include damage on the hits as well. I need to see how much attack lag there is across a variety of damage levels so I can plot an appropriate curve for the stun equation.

So, to make this concrete: Which move, the damage, the hitlag duration for the attacker, and the cooldown time, which means landing lag for any aerials. The more of that you can give me, the more accurate my plot will be, and the better fitting the shieldstun I devise will be.

Anybody interested in helping out?

 

[Dan_X]

The Future of Brawl+

Attention Everone (sorry Leaf, I stole your style) please read this post, specifically speaking, the latter portion! I've spent a good deal of time trying to make a pool of topics with which to draw life from in this thread. I urge all of you to participate to the best of your ability!

@Swordplay: I agree with much of what you said.

@Cape: I really hope you can find it in yourself to reconsider, I'd hate to see you go. Brawl+ is what it is today because of all of the parts that came to make the whole. You are one of those constituents. Anyone who gives feedback, and helps in anyway is a part of the whole. Obviously some people have done far more than others. I'm not going to name names, because the effort put forth by the community should not be measured on a constituent basis. This isn't a contest. We're all working towards the same ends; a better Brawl+. That 'ends' may differentiate slightly from person to person, but generally speaking, we all want the best for the game. It's a group project, with many peoples' ideas conflicting and clashing. Arguments are bound to happen. I urge you to look beyond petty disagreements, I urge you to continue with your excellent input. There's no question that having you on board is a huge 'plus' for Brawl+ (pun definately intended! ;D ).

There's no doubt you've done a lot more for Brawl+ than many other members of the Brawl+ community. You've done a ton more than myself, and for all of your hard work I thank you very much.

In the end, I hope you don't follow through with your words, I hope you don't leave Brawl+ for you will absolutely be missed!

@Yeroc: I'd help, but I don't know how to gather that data. After looking at Veril's throw thread I'm sure he could be of amazing help, I mean... He comes with graphs and all--- the complete package! Haha. I am interested in seeing what you can do with sstun though! Sorry I can't be of more help! Good luck!

@RPG, I'm curious, what about RC1 made it feel 'faster' to you? Granted, I haven't played it in a while, but I recall the transition from RC1 to Cape's set to be the opposite: from slow to fast.

@Kupo: I'm just assuming you might see this... Where have you been? Do you still play Brawl+. I'd be curious to see where you think we should go next. You were spot on with NADT, and various other things, and many people (Cape being one of them) are within your realm of thought. So what's next?

There are many ideas being tossed around, we have to evaluate these ideas and measure their worth. To list a few (actually a lot of) topics of discussion that I've seen circulating:

•A common notion is to speed up the game. Peek faster, and have tighter physics. What's within the realm of realistic to speed up the game? What else can we do to tighten gameplay?

•Increase jump speed (so that characters reach the apex of their jump faster). This allows for more speedy followups in an environment with less hitstun. I personally feel that the hitstun right now is pretty near perfect. The only better thing I canthink of is character specific hitstun (is that possible). It may be difficult in determining the value for each character though.

•Optimize throws. As seen in Veril's new thread, there's a good school of thought backing the idea that every throw should have its uses. Every throw doesn't need to kill, just as not every character needs a KOing throw.

•Shield Stun is also a popular topic of discussion. Yeroc is also looking to recreate sstun with a newly implemented and balanced system. That could take a while, but it's definately worth considering. Beyond Yeroc's project, what's everyones input on shield stun as it is now?

•With regards to balancing, many people have stood in defense of the top characters asking that they stop recieving nerfs. Nerfs intended to put them on more fair footing with the less fortunate of the pack. These people (and I'm one of them) would rather see the less powerful characters buffed, bringing them to more equal playing fields with the likes of Marth, Fox, Falco, Squirtle... Etc.

Let's make a list of the characters that are by-and-large considered underpowered. I've seen talk of Wario and Mario recently, and I assure you there are others. Remember that each character, even after buffing, will still have their bad match-ups. That's how it's supposed to be. When a lesser character is buffed the buff should be well-thought-out. Said buff should complement their playstyle and work to enhance their metagame.

•What's in store for the cosmetic future of Brawl+? what can we further tweak to give Brawl+ that distinctive appearance. For example has a '+' replaced the 'X' on the Brawl screen?

•What's to come of new levels and Brawl+? It's no secret that we can now play SSE stages. MK16 (sorry, I forget if that's your name-- I think I'm off) has been hard at work with the implementation of PW's code which adds new selectable icons, as such new levels, to the SSS. What are the thoughts on this? What other SSE stages are tournament viable? Even if a map is a FD clone (all flat) it could provide different gameplay as the ledges may be better. I personally see nothing wrong with adding various levels that are similar, so long as the death boundries and spawns have been fixed for each map. Remember, variety is good. I would love to see more stages added in the next beta, using new icons.

•What sort of mechanics need fixing? What problems are known about but still have not been weeded out? For one, I think the most obvious issue in the game, a mechanic I'd live to see fixed, is part of the NASL (no auto-sweetspot ledges) code. Characters recovering should NOT auto-snap in the event that the enemy's shield was hit (even poked) on the way up. This may also happen when striking the enemy with their shield down. Point is, the code doesn't do exactly what we'd like. Can it be fixed? Any ideas?

Those are all of the relevent topics of discussion I can muster at the moment, I hope this helps bring the thread back on track, perhaps in a more concise fashion that it ran before.

Also, please ignore any typos even if they are painfully sickening. I typed this from my iTouch and the button lag is terrible-- picture Brawl online.. Only worse!!

 

[FSLink]

I wish I could say something more constructive (haven't been keeping up with Brawl+) but Orca's post was very clear, and the goals and ideas of this project should be much more laid out like that in future topics' opening posts. Even a simple check list would be really nice (No percentages though since that's lame and pretty much guessing numbers.) of what needs to be done to "complete" Brawl+, it would help lay the groundwork for the discussion of the topic as well as make people understand what is currently being prioritized.

I really agree with the others saying that there needs to be more organization.

•What's in store for the cosmetic future of Brawl+? what can we further tweak to give Brawl+ that distinctive appearance. For example has a '+' replaced the 'X' on the Brawl screen?

I think it'd be interesting of the character select screen could be more edited. Outside of matches obviously, people spend the most time in there. I think it'd be great if it could have more of a distinct look aside from more icons/different layout. Perhaps a darker background, more "Brawl"s renamed to "Brawl +", or editing cursors or the CSS icons themselves to look different? Use the CSS organizer to move the P1/P2/P3/P4 things around too? (I personally dig the idea of having them on the side, but they're really huge on the screen)

 

[MK26]

<-- lol

w/e, just call me Maestro

 

[Alphatron]

•What's in store for the cosmetic future of Brawl+? what can we further tweak to give Brawl+ that distinctive appearance. For example has a '+' replaced the 'X' on the Brawl screen?

If anyone wants to give it a shot, the "X" texture can be found in MiscData[3] in the mu_menumain.pac. Specifically, its titled MenMainMark.01. I don't know if editing the X into a + is worth it though. People may be too lazy to put the "+" in themselves and downloading a mu_menmain.pac with the auto updater is simply out of the question.

A while back, kupo said that brawl+ should have focused on physics changes before attempting to balance characters.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Brawl+ already has a title screen. Not very amazing. Since all you do is skip past it.

What we need is changing menu model and animations to work.

 

[jalued]

can i just say Cape, i really like your set compared to the RC1 set, its a much better improvement.

All i wish there was now was faster physics for the game (and possibly lower hitstun to compensate)

btw. i now i cannt spel

edit: is it possible to get 3D animations in the select screen like in N64? maybe using the trophys (pure speculation haha)

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

@ Orca - I realize that it is mainly due to the characters I play, and the fact that they rely almost solely on aerial approaches. I play Jiggly, Marth, Ike, Squirtle, and to a lesser extent shiek, sonic, and Dannongorf, lord of yogurt.

The thing is, Jiggly, Marth, Ike, and Squirtle are aerial approach characters. With capes new set (and adjusted ALRs) you barely see any change if you stick to aerials only, however aerial/ground game mixups manage to be seriously noticeable. A staple combo of mine was linking marth's F-air into a U-tilt combo, and it felt like that flowed nicely in RC1. In cape's set, the ALR lag time was increased which made this combo less effective,.

I am aware that "Safe" combos are generaly bad, but would love it if we could find some way to fix "Safe" combos without sacrificing mixup speed.

 

[proteininja]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

Cape is the only one who spoke about Bowser competently. MAH BOOSER BALANCE...

I am sad.

Also, lol add shieldstun placebo.

 

[VietGeek]

Cape...

are...you a martyr?

I would also like to ask that while plans to fix/decrease shieldstun to moves that deal too much is in consideration...

what about certain moves that don't deal enough shieldstun? Moves that were suppose to be safer compared to their vBrawl self but received the shorter end of the stick despite the shieldstun buff...I'm sure there must be such moves.

Mind you I don't mean making moves unnecessarily safer, but that some characters may need a move or two that has some legitimate shield pressure (think a low negative advantage like Peach's vBrawl fair as one of the more...radical (?) examples)

 

[Alphatron]

^How about Bowser fair?

 

[proteininja]

OMG If the bowser fair had more shield stun I would love it.

I space with that and if I ever hit their shield I get pwned.

It would be nice to have one bowser attack be safe on shield.

 

[Alphatron]

Or at least if the fair got its autocancel back. Should be possible through psa.

 

[leafgreen386]

Bowser fair landing lag: 12 frames

I don't know how much damage it does off the top of my head. If it's between 12 and 14 it deals 13 frames of shieldstun. If it's between 15 and 17 it deals 15 frames of shieldstun. These are the shieldstun values in the 5.0 build. They're one frame higher in cape's. So if done perfectly, it's either a +1 or +3 advantage for bowser in 5.0.

 

[Plaid02]

I forgot if I already posted this here, and I couldn't find it. *sheepish face*

When I was playing on wifi, the online training room loaded as Rumble Falls. Does anyone know why or what to do about it?

 

[GHNeko]

Wifi Room doesnt work on wifi, ironically enough.

 

[MK26]

It does for me...i hope...

SSS thread has hit 3500 words...

 

[Alondite]

Which is why you learn like. 3. Different. Characters. Each of them covering weaknesses on another character you play.

You will NOT get by with 1 character in this game.

I'm aware that maining one character is a quick way to losing. I don't main just one character. What I'm saying is that the goal of balance should be to make matchups as close to 50:50 as possible. It's bad game design to have to rely on other characters to cover weaknesses. You have to remember that the game is going to be played outside of the tournament setting as well.

A while back, someone said that we should nerf the good characters less and instead buff the bad characters and I agree with this. In Alondite's example of Marth V Mario, I have some success with jumping fireballs, however I do see that Marth is a tough matchup for him. A possible fix to this, make his fireball speed or fire speed faster. Will this unbalance him for other matchups? We will see but its a possible fix.

There will never be a fighting game in which every character is perfectly balanced V every character. There will always be good and bad matchups. The goal of game balance should be to make every character's balance intransitive i.e. everyone is good against about the same amount of characters they are bad against and to the same degree for every character.

I think something we have to keep in mind is character strengths are strengths for a reason. Marth's strength is that he is a fast character with a mid range disjointed hitbox. Originally, Sakurai wanted to balance this by giving him no projectile, a decently light weight, and an extremely predictable short distance recovery. He failed, but we can succeed, however nerfing marth's range, which is what defines him as a character, is not a success but a failure. We should find some other way to balance characters without changing their basic function or concept. See Squirtle argument ^_^

Exactly. Bringing up bad characters in effect does the same thing as nerfing the good ones. Balancing up gives lower characters more options while not taking options from higher characters. Removing things like automatic chaingrabs and infinites and things of that nature is fine, and can do a lotby itself to balance a game. I think Super Turbo HDRemix is a good example of balancing. All characters can still do pretty much all the things that they've been able to, but lower characters get a few more options to make them more viable.

As for shield stun, I think it's a -bit- too much on powerful attacks. The stun combined with the push makes some moves that should be high risk too safe, even if not spaced well. I also think that mid-powered attacks could use a bit more just to make a few moves safer and give them a bit more viability. *Edit* Oh and possibly a slight increase in universal shield damage?

I like the decreased hitstun, but I would like to give it a try a bit lower. I heard .44 was too low, and it's at .46 now right? Maybe give .45 a shot? I dunno, just throwing ideas out there.

 

[MK26]

Making every matchup 50:50 is unfeasable. Characters will inevitably have good and bad matchups.

 

[Alondite]

Well of course. As long as there is variety there can't be perfect balance, but the goal should be to get every matchup as even as possible.

 

[GHNeko]

You can only get so far without imposing on certain MUs that were already good and/or affecting and changing the core of a character.

 

[THO]

I don't think the goal of balance has anything to do with making all matches 50:50.
I see two main aspects to a well balanced game.
No extremely biased match ups, nothing 100:0, 90:10...nothing that blatant.
At the same time I think it is completely pointless to even consider a game that has all characters as 50:50.
The joy of playing (the option to play) a multitude of characters is that each has their own strength and weakness. Some styles of play will inherently be bad against others. Characters that are super defensive like bowser may deal really well with fox, but can't to **** to a mid range spacing character like zelda or marth. This doesn't mean the you need to give bowser something to deal with those characters, it just means that it is always an uphill battle against those sorts of opponents.

The point is that as long as a matchup isn't passed 70:30 or something it is winnable with the right amount of skill. As long as there are points in which you can outplay your opponent to win the match then it is do able, even if the chance of success is stacked 2:1 against you or so.

I think it is dumb not to have the need ever to counter pick characters. I think that is the reason why Brawl was so crappy in the first place. It wasn't that metaknight ***** everyone, some characters did quite well against him. It was rather that you never had to counterpick when you played metaknight, there was no bad matchup everything was 50:50 or more in MK favor. That is stupid, that is why he was ban worthy (IMO).

 

[ValTroX]

Attention Everone (sorry Leaf, I stole your style) please read this post, specifically speaking, the latter portion! I've spent a good deal of time trying to make a pool of topics with which to draw life from in this thread. I urge all of you to participate to the best of your ability!

@Swordplay: I agree with much of what you said.

@Cape: I really hope you can find it in yourself to reconsider, I'd hate to see you go. Brawl+ is what it is today because of all of the parts that came to make the whole. You are one of those constituents. Anyone who gives feedback, and helps in anyway is a part of the whole. Obviously some people have done far more than others. I'm not going to name names, because the effort put forth by the community should not be measured on a constituent basis. This isn't a contest. We're all working towards the same ends; a better Brawl+. That 'ends' may differentiate slightly from person to person, but generally speaking, we all want the best for the game. It's a group project, with many peoples' ideas conflicting and clashing. Arguments are bound to happen. I urge you to look beyond petty disagreements, I urge you to continue with your excellent input. There's no question that having you on board is a huge 'plus' for Brawl+ (pun definately intended! ;D ).

There's no doubt you've done a lot more for Brawl+ than many other members of the Brawl+ community. You've done a ton more than myself, and for all of your hard work I thank you very much.

In the end, I hope you don't follow through with your words, I hope you don't leave Brawl+ for you will absolutely be missed!

@Yeroc: I'd help, but I don't know how to gather that data. After looking at Veril's throw thread I'm sure he could be of amazing help, I mean... He comes with graphs and all--- the complete package! Haha. I am interested in seeing what you can do with sstun though! Sorry I can't be of more help! Good luck!

@RPG, I'm curious, what about RC1 made it feel 'faster' to you? Granted, I haven't played it in a while, but I recall the transition from RC1 to Cape's set to be the opposite: from slow to fast.

@Kupo: I'm just assuming you might see this... Where have you been? Do you still play Brawl+. I'd be curious to see where you think we should go next. You were spot on with NADT, and various other things, and many people (Cape being one of them) are within your realm of thought. So what's next?

There are many ideas being tossed around, we have to evaluate these ideas and measure their worth. To list a few (actually a lot of) topics of discussion that I've seen circulating:

•A common notion is to speed up the game. Peek faster, and have tighter physics. What's within the realm of realistic to speed up the game? What else can we do to tighten gameplay?

•Increase jump speed (so that characters reach the apex of their jump faster). This allows for more speedy followups in an environment with less hitstun. I personally feel that the hitstun right now is pretty near perfect. The only better thing I canthink of is character specific hitstun (is that possible). It may be difficult in determining the value for each character though.

•Optimize throws. As seen in Veril's new thread, there's a good school of thought backing the idea that every throw should have its uses. Every throw doesn't need to kill, just as not every character needs a KOing throw.

•Shield Stun is also a popular topic of discussion. Yeroc is also looking to recreate sstun with a newly implemented and balanced system. That could take a while, but it's definately worth considering. Beyond Yeroc's project, what's everyones input on shield stun as it is now?

•With regards to balancing, many people have stood in defense of the top characters asking that they stop recieving nerfs. Nerfs intended to put them on more fair footing with the less fortunate of the pack. These people (and I'm one of them) would rather see the less powerful characters buffed, bringing them to more equal playing fields with the likes of Marth, Fox, Falco, Squirtle... Etc.

Let's make a list of the characters that are by-and-large considered underpowered. I've seen talk of Wario and Mario recently, and I assure you there are others. Remember that each character, even after buffing, will still have their bad match-ups. That's how it's supposed to be. When a lesser character is buffed the buff should be well-thought-out. Said buff should complement their playstyle and work to enhance their metagame.

•What's in store for the cosmetic future of Brawl+? what can we further tweak to give Brawl+ that distinctive appearance. For example has a '+' replaced the 'X' on the Brawl screen?

•What's to come of new levels and Brawl+? It's no secret that we can now play SSE stages. MK16 (sorry, I forget if that's your name-- I think I'm off) has been hard at work with the implementation of PW's code which adds new selectable icons, as such new levels, to the SSS. What are the thoughts on this? What other SSE stages are tournament viable? Even if a map is a FD clone (all flat) it could provide different gameplay as the ledges may be better. I personally see nothing wrong with adding various levels that are similar, so long as the death boundries and spawns have been fixed for each map. Remember, variety is good. I would love to see more stages added in the next beta, using new icons.

•What sort of mechanics need fixing? What problems are known about but still have not been weeded out? For one, I think the most obvious issue in the game, a mechanic I'd live to see fixed, is part of the NASL (no auto-sweetspot ledges) code. Characters recovering should NOT auto-snap in the event that the enemy's shield was hit (even poked) on the way up. This may also happen when striking the enemy with their shield down. Point is, the code doesn't do exactly what we'd like. Can it be fixed? Any ideas?

Those are all of the relevent topics of discussion I can muster at the moment, I hope this helps bring the thread back on track, perhaps in a more concise fashion that it ran before.

Also, please ignore any typos even if they are painfully sickening. I typed this from my iTouch and the button lag is terrible-- picture Brawl online.. Only worse!!

i got to agree with everything you said, and the NASL thing is totally true

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

It can be easily fixed via PSA
with a code that tells you you cant grab the ledge, just keep it on till whenever we want.

and i'd like to see more speed....more like Mel *gets shot*

i'd like to see more gravity and reaching the peak of your jump sooner... play falco in Melee and you can see xD

and i wonder if we'll put in smaller ledges..there was talk before RC1 about it and a bunch of other changes, like sliding techs and stuff

sheilds seem like they regenerate too fast so you cant keep the pressure on someone, is there a way to lower regeneration speed?

 

[ValTroX]

It can be easily fixed via PSA
with a code that tells you you cant grab the ledge, just keep it on till whenever we want.

and i'd like to see more speed....more like Mel *gets shot*

i'd like to see more gravity and reaching the peak of your jump sooner... play falco in Melee and you can see xD

and i wonder if we'll put in smaller ledges..there was talk before RC1 about it and a bunch of other changes, like sliding techs and stuff

sheilds seem like they regenerate too fast so you cant keep the pressure on someone, is there a way to lower regeneration speed?

I guess we all love mel... (gets shot too) xD. The edge reduction is a great suggestion too, but i guess I would need some time to adjust, and it will kill characters like diddy, who is kinda hard to recover without Autosweetspot and Link, who seems to have a bigger edge than anyone else . I love this project, but I think that b+ is becoming a balanced version of melee with no wavedash(Awesomeness), which is, what I thought vbrawl would be in the first place. Anyways, keep up the great work guys.

 

[ThatGuy]

Is the NADT (or whatever it's called, no airdodge during tumble) going to be a permanent change? I've only heard of negative feedback around here.

Personally I don't care TOO much as I've been wiggling since '07 out of habit, but I feel that it's just something we don't really need to have in the game. Was there a lot of discussion on this that I can read up on?

 

[ValTroX]

I personally like it, since sometimes when i tried to tech, it would do an AD and i would get hit because i land on my feet

 

[MK26]

No johns.

The only thing that NADT has changed is that it forces me to jump out of combos instead of ad. It's probably safer, especially with Kirby...

 

[GHNeko]

Its fun, but once you make it a habit to tap the stick and AD at the same time, NADT kinda just like...becomes neigh useless. The only thing it teaches you before Tap+AD habit is to use other options out of tumble.

 

[KOkingpin]

Its fun, but once you make it a habit to tap the stick and AD at the same time, NADT kinda just like...becomes neigh useless. The only thing it teaches you before Tap+AD habit is to use other options out of tumble.

it does however take out the "EZ mode" that the wbr has been trying to take out.

 

[GHNeko]

I disagree. By making tap stick + AD a habitual thing, it just brings everything back to square one. It's like L-Canceling, in a sense.

 

[MK26]

I disagree with neko's custom title. Windboxes vs. :V is def at least 55:45

However, I do agree with his opinion on NADT

 

[GHNeko]

The issue is that you dont need to wiggle. You just have to tap. It requires a single input that can be done at the same time as AD. If it wasnt like that, THEN it wouldnt go back to square one. :/


Also, :V vs Windboxes is 60:40 son. get your MUs straight.

 

[ThatGuy]

Neko understands my point completely. So what's the explaination behind it?

 

[Dan_X]

I wish I could say something more constructive (haven't been keeping up with Brawl+) but Orca's post was very clear, and the goals and ideas of this project should be much more laid out like that in future topics' opening posts. Even a simple check list would be really nice (No percentages though since that's lame and pretty much guessing numbers.) of what needs to be done to "complete" Brawl+, it would help lay the groundwork for the discussion of the topic as well as make people understand what is currently being prioritized.

I really agree with the others saying that there needs to be more organization.


I think it'd be interesting of the character select screen could be more edited. Outside of matches obviously, people spend the most time in there. I think it'd be great if it could have more of a distinct look aside from more icons/different layout. Perhaps a darker background, more "Brawl"s renamed to "Brawl +", or editing cursors or the CSS icons themselves to look different? Use the CSS organizer to move the P1/P2/P3/P4 things around too? (I personally dig the idea of having them on the side, but they're really huge on the screen)

Yeah, I'm all for more customization of the CSS. It'd be pretty cool. It's not terrible now, but seeing as how we can move P1/P2.. etc it could be even more distinguished.

If anyone wants to give it a shot, the "X" texture can be found in MiscData[3] in the mu_menumain.pac. Specifically, its titled MenMainMark.01. I don't know if editing the X into a + is worth it though. People may be too lazy to put the "+" in themselves and downloading a mu_menmain.pac with the auto updater is simply out of the question.

A while back, kupo said that brawl+ should have focused on physics changes before attempting to balance characters.

It's only a matter of time 'til it's changed! I'd love for it to be changed. :D

The issue is that you dont need to wiggle. You just have to tap. It requires a single input that can be done at the same time as AD. If it wasnt like that, THEN it wouldnt go back to square one. :/


Also, :V vs Windboxes is 60:40 son. get your MUs straight.

I still think an imperfect NADT code is better than nothing. So what if you can simply tap and AD? I have a question though, if you're in hitstun, and you tap, does it register? Like, the second your knocked away in hitstun can you tilt and AD? Wouldn't you have to wait for hitstun to.. end before you can tap anyway? If you have to wait for it to end you also have to know when it ends... there's more opportunity to mess up if you don't know when you're out of hitstun, as such, you don't AD right away. Before you could spam AD.

I think it's an important addition to the game. It's really NOT a pointless input if by-and-large it's doing what it's supposed to do: make it more difficult to AD out of tumble.

 

[GHNeko]

I still think an imperfect NADT code is better than nothing. So what if you can simply tap and AD? I have a question though, if you're in hitstun, and you tap, does it register? Like, the second your knocked away in hitstun can you tilt and AD? Wouldn't you have to wait for hitstun to.. end before you can tap anyway? If you have to wait for it to end you also have to know when it ends... there's more opportunity to mess up if you don't know when you're out of hitstun, as such, you don't AD right away. Before you could spam AD.

IF you can AD. You can tap. The very frame you're out of hitstun and in tumble. You can tap + AD.


I think it's an important addition to the game. It's really NOT a pointless input if by-and-large it's doing what it's supposed to do: make it more difficult to AD out of tumble.

That's the problem. IT DOESNT make it more difficult in the long run. It will become second nature for players to Tap+AD at the same time defeating the purpose, like ALR vs L-Canceling. I'm ALREADY doing it like 30% of the time and I just started playing GSH TODAY. Once I get it down and make it a habit, I'll be doing it 95% of the time and NADT will not apply to me any longer.

That's the point I'm making.

You can also jump + AD as well. :/

NADT is circumvented by the ability to input 2 actions at the same time within a few frames of each other.