Brawl+ Beta Build (GSH1) Discussion

[Plum]

As somebody who heavily played G&W in Melee, only played him in vBrawl, and still heavily uses him in B+ I would love to make a suggestion for his throws. I haven't gotten a chance to see these new throws yet but I can still make these suggestions.

First off, return Dthrow to original speed with IASA on the cooldown to allow for possible tech chases. Dthrow has two major issues. First one being the extreme tech speed of so many characters in the cast which I don't see being fixed. Second is that its faster animation makes Dthrow seen from a mile away. You never not tech it because the faster throw speed makes it so obvious which throw he is doing. If he's going to have a reason to use other throws he should also be able to trick you into missing a tech, as well as DI his other throws poorly. As far as how much IASA goes, Dthrow Usmash doesn't need to be possible, but Dthrow into a dash canceled Dsmash or Fsmash should be feasible on at least some characters.

The next suggestion is to replace Fthrow's animation to also be the same as his other throws. For what ever reason it has a different animation that becomes clear when you know the matchup. It would allow him to also mix up his throw game with Fthrow.

The throw changes scream a more "Melee" throw game for him, and one of the great things in Melee was that you couldn't know which throw G&W was doing based off the animation. Sure, in Melee he also had great DI based CG's, and an excellent Nair to combo and kill with from his throws, but at least return the mind game effect his throw animations had. I'll just dream of his Melee throws and the chute Nair.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

out of curiosity, through what procedure will you be accessing MK 1-2 from the SSS? a redirect code like WWR, or will simply selecting MK automatically link you to 1-2?

You can already hold L/R when selection Mushroomy Kingdom to always get 1-2, even in vBrawl...

And I think the exact opposite when it comes to G&W's throw animations, but whatever; I'll just observe what the WBR does with it.

 

[MK26]

out of curiosity, through what procedure will you be accessing MK 1-2 from the SSS? a redirect code like WWR, or will simply selecting MK automatically link you to 1-2?

You can press L or R (i think) to always get 1-2...

and just by looking at the stage files, i think you can replace one with the other and that'll make 1-2 load either way

EDIT: D: semi-ninja'd

 

[Dan_X]

This is a nice start Orca, but I don't really think this completely addresses the issue of future windbox buffs as most character will simply be able to blow bowser offstage while he is using his neutral air. I believe the proper course of action is to make bowser windbox proof as his fat *** will most likely make him invulnerable to all major wind currents including El nino and hurricane Katrina. We should strive to make characters natural, and I think that naturally bowser should just kick everyone else's ***. It is uncharacteristic of him to lose.

On that note Mario's back throw should KO him instantly, and princess Peach should not be able to deal any damage or KB to him. No one cares about Luigi. Delete him from the game and replace him with Geno.

10ROCKETPUNCHES

Rofl. Good call regarding windboxes!

 

[FrozenHobo]

i never played on MK in vBrawl so i didn't know about the hold L/R thing.

anyway, how is 1-2 coming along anyways? last i heard it still needed a lot of editing.

 

[VietGeek]

well the main issue is that it does an auto KO at "Go!" I guess the other problem is the lack of ledges and that one side has platforms going down.

Even with all of those issues "fixed" I'm not quite sold on it being completely legal. It also depends on how much people are willing to want and work for 1-2 to happen I suppose.

Just like playing on Skyworld+ didn't make me feel too confident about it not passing the "Counterpick/Banned" category either; somewhat to my dismay.

 

[matt4300]

i never played on MK in vBrawl so i didn't know about the hold L/R thing.

anyway, how is 1-2 coming along anyways? last i heard it still needed a lot of editing.

Speaking of modded stages ... wheres that onett I saw in a few of Nekos vids? That looked sweet as hell.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Individual moves can have their shieldstun tweaked as need be.

Although I'm of the opinion that the shieldstun in cape's set still needs to be toned down from where it is, actually. By about a frame or so on everything.

edit: This was meant to be a response to before cape's post. I'll respond to that later when I have the time to write up a long post.

You're just mad cause I abuse moves that give me enough time to snuff a shield grab afterwards .

I think Cape's shieldstun is fine. I need that one extra frame of shieldstun btw (I already have negative advantages on every one of my little traps. Any less shieldstun and I'm no longer able to outspeed a shield grab Q_Q)

Spacing yourself to be outside of shieldgrab range shouldn't be the ONLY way to shield pressure <_<. It's fine for a character to hit your shield with a weak, low lag (or auto canceled) attack and be able to jab you before your 7 frame grab comes out (really, that's a NEGATIVE 4-6 advantage on block. I find that perfectly reasonable)

 

[KOkingpin]

well the main issue is that it does an auto KO at "Go!" I guess the other problem is the lack of ledges and that one side has platforms going down.

Even with all of those issues "fixed" I'm not quite sold on it being completely legal. It also depends on how much people are willing to want and work for 1-2 to happen I suppose.

Just like playing on Skyworld+ didn't make me feel too confident about it not passing the "Counterpick/Banned" category either; somewhat to my dismay.

the only issue with skyworld is that when you hit the floor of the stage it still has hitlag. If there was any way to take that out it would be an awesome stage. Its CP viable right now though.

 

[leafgreen386]

Attention: everyone

This post is required reading. Whether you realize it or not at first, this post pertains to everyone who has played cape's set.

I think I've let the shieldstun conversation go on long enough, seeing as we're now starting to talk about other stuff. Gonna start off with a little something about ganon to help prove my point, and then segue into the stuff you care about.

In RC1, shieldstun followed the formula of 2*floor(damage/3) + 5. Ganon's jab does 7%, so it would've dealt a total of 9 frames of shieldstun. Ganon's jab hits frame 3 and ends frame 23. The move has 20 frames of endlag. This gives the move a magnificent -11 advantage on block. Then there's another 3 frames before he can jab again, giving you a total of 13 frames to do something to get you out of this. Grab him. Drop your shield and jab him first. UpB. Usmash. Sh a nair. Do something. You have plenty of time to beat it.

This is the whole problem. People think the shieldstun is higher than it actually is, until they're told that it's been lowered, then they suddenly realize that everything they thought was broken actually isn't, since they actually try to get out of stuff now. Because they believe that the shieldstun is lower, even though it was actually raised. Yes. The shieldstun in cape's set is higher than in RC1. By 1 frame. For everything. The shieldstun growth was supposed to have been lowered, but it was actually left the same, and the additive value was increased instead.

This is the shieldstun code in GSH1:

Shieldstun [spunit262, 6 Lines]
C28753FC 00000005
83810034 8083013C
2C040000 41810014
1F9C0014 3B9C0028
3880000A 7F9C23D6
60000000 00000000

This is the shieldstun code in 5.0:

Shieldstun [spunit262, 6 Lines]
C28753FC 00000005
83810034 8083013C
2C040000 41810014
1F9C0014 3B9C0023
3880000A 7F9C23D6
60000000 00000000

The 14 (20 in hex) is the multiplier, the 23 (35 in hex) and 28 (40 in hex) are additives, and the A (10 in hex) is the divisor, which applies to both numbers. The values here give 3.5 as the final additive in the official build, which is treated as 3 in game. They give 4 as the final additive in cape's build. The final multiplier is 2 in both of them.

My conclusion? CAPE BE TROLLIN'

 

[The Cape]

CAPE BE TROLLIN'

Seriously? Really?

Every post that you make is one big troll as you try to antagonize people to build on your ego. The fact that you have not done anything positive for this project is shown due to your lack of any real skill towards the game or tournament experience. You also would rather just have recognition for making something in this game than having the game be good. We have all seen the fruits of that labor. Can you say Wolf nair in RC1? Did you even test your **** before you put it up?

Its people like you that will force Brawl+ to continue to suck. ****ty players that for some reason are in the WBR and have access to "decision making" when you do not host, attend, or play in tournaments. We have many of these people in the back room. GoodoldGanon is a completely casual player who makes assumptions about things off of a change list without actually testing it or playing it first. Ultimate failure with theory crafting there. Neko is a complete troll that is only in the back room due to the fact that he pays for the site, which is both sad and pathetic. Leaf is a nerdy high school kid with no friends and is power mad to be an OP on the IRC or a bully on the internet.

Thats your WBR in a nutshell, that is what has been producing Brawl+ up to this point and that is the reason it will continue to suck. I wanted to quit this stupid downhill project months ago and I think I have finally lost all patience with it. The WBR is a bunch of ******** morons who want to buff their own character and be revered as some kind of super heros for their subpar work instead of properly fixing this game as they should have been from the beginning.

If you WBR ******* want to keep trying to "balance" this game like you did RC1 then thats fine. More money for me and anyone else smart enough to abuse your ******** changes.


**** Brawl+. I'm out.

 

[MK26]

whoa .

EDIT: red card for minor spam makes me :<

 

[Sakuraba Neku]

Seriously? Really?

Every post that you make is one big troll as you try to antagonize people to build on your ego. The fact that you have not done anything positive for this project is shown due to your lack of any real skill towards the game or tournament experience. You also would rather just have recognition for making something in this game than having the game be good. We have all seen the fruits of that labor. Can you say Wolf nair in RC1? Did you even test your **** before you put it up?

Its people like you that will force Brawl+ to continue to suck. ****ty players that for some reason are in the WBR and have access to "decision making" when you do not host, attend, or play in tournaments. We have many of these people in the back room. GoodoldGanon is a completely casual player who makes assumptions about things off of a change list without actually testing it or playing it first. Ultimate failure with theory crafting there. Neko is a complete troll that is only in the back room due to the fact that he pays for the site, which is both sad and pathetic. Leaf is a nerdy high school kid with no friends and is power mad to be an OP on the IRC or a bully on the internet.

Thats your WBR in a nutshell, that is what has been producing Brawl+ up to this point and that is the reason it will continue to suck. I wanted to quit this stupid downhill project months ago and I think I have finally lost all patience with it. The WBR is a bunch of ******** morons who want to buff their own character and be revered as some kind of super heros for their subpar work instead of properly fixing this game as they should have been from the beginning.

If you WBR ******* want to keep trying to "balance" this game like you did RC1 then thats fine. More money for me and anyone else smart enough to abuse your ******** changes.


**** Brawl+. I'm out.

You MAAAAAAD

 

[Potulol]

This thread now interests me.

 

[FrozenHobo]

well the main issue is that it does an auto KO at "Go!" I guess the other problem is the lack of ledges and that one side has platforms going down.

Even with all of those issues "fixed" I'm not quite sold on it being completely legal. It also depends on how much people are willing to want and work for 1-2 to happen I suppose.

Just like playing on Skyworld+ didn't make me feel too confident about it not passing the "Counterpick/Banned" category either; somewhat to my dismay.

as it stands now, i can see skyworld being CP/Banned material. if we get rid of the problem with the main platform then it would definitely be CP material.

as far as 1-2, i hope we can work the problems out, because its a nice stage design, though the moving platforms would raise the question of whether or not it could be considered for CP material (i don't see it as being viable as a neutral).

another stage fix i'd like to see soon is Spear Pillar+ (SP+). on paper it looks like a good CP, but skyworld+ looked like a neutral before i got to play on it, too.


finally, whats this i hear about a fixed onett?

 

[Bandit]

Skyworld+ is a fine counterpick even with the main stage being hit. This can be used to the advantage of the player who uses multi-hit smashes.

Spear Pillar will never happen. It's a circle camp haven. It's a live forever tunnel. It sucks.

 

[Veril]

Oh my.

Don't leave.

;_;

 

[FrozenHobo]

Skyworld+ is a fine counterpick even with the main stage being hit. This can be used to the advantage of the player who uses multi-hit smashes.

Spear Pillar will never happen. It's a circle camp haven. It's a live forever tunnel. It sucks.

they have a fix for it, that actually would make it (probably) CP worthy.

 

[JayFizzy]

im scared D:

 

[Isatis]

Alright guys, please move the Cape discussion to the B+ IRC or somewhere else, not here.

 

[Shadic]

..Did we just lose Cape?
Ninja'd by Mod, nevermind.

 

[[TSON]]

seriously? Really?

Every Post That You Make Is One Big Tro--

BEEP BEEP BOOP. Rage Detected. BEEP BEEP BOOP.

BEEP BEEP BOOP. RAGE NOT NEEDED. LOST CAUSE. STATING THE OBVIOUS WILL ONLY ENSURE AND SPEEDUP THE PROJECT'S EVENTUAL DEATH. BEEP BEEP BOOP.

BEEP BEEP BOOP. DO NOT LEAVE. WE HERE NEED MORE PEOPLE LIKE YOU. BEEP BEEP BOOP.

Boop.

 

[~Xero~]

zaf posting:

YOSHI'S shield is still not fixed. I don't know if you guys know this or not. But it has been mentioned a few times since the beta build came out and none of the updates had a fix.

please fix it =]

ask elefterios for further details, since he is the yoshi master

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

Seriously? Really?

Every post that you make is one big troll as you try to antagonize people to build on your ego. The fact that you have not done anything positive for this project is shown due to your lack of any real skill towards the game or tournament experience. You also would rather just have recognition for making something in this game than having the game be good. We have all seen the fruits of that labor. Can you say Wolf nair in RC1? Did you even test your **** before you put it up?

Its people like you that will force Brawl+ to continue to suck. ****ty players that for some reason are in the WBR and have access to "decision making" when you do not host, attend, or play in tournaments. We have many of these people in the back room. GoodoldGanon is a completely casual player who makes assumptions about things off of a change list without actually testing it or playing it first. Ultimate failure with theory crafting there. Neko is a complete troll that is only in the back room due to the fact that he pays for the site, which is both sad and pathetic. Leaf is a nerdy high school kid with no friends and is power mad to be an OP on the IRC or a bully on the internet.

Thats your WBR in a nutshell, that is what has been producing Brawl+ up to this point and that is the reason it will continue to suck. I wanted to quit this stupid downhill project months ago and I think I have finally lost all patience with it. The WBR is a bunch of ******** morons who want to buff their own character and be revered as some kind of super heros for their subpar work instead of properly fixing this game as they should have been from the beginning.

If you WBR ******* want to keep trying to "balance" this game like you did RC1 then thats fine. More money for me and anyone else smart enough to abuse your ******** changes.


**** Brawl+. I'm out.

Wow, I finally get enough nerve to post my opinions and the project explodes.

I guess I'll say this. I still support Brawl+, and I support the work that all coders do on it, especially Cape. I loved the fact that people cared enough to make a game in their own image. Countless mods have been made by internet communities before. Counterstrike, DOTA (league of legends), hell, tons of the best games of our time started as mods.

I've been a member of the smash community since 64, and Brawl+ really re-ignited the flame of my love for this game (that was poetic). Brawl+ really changed the face of smash as we know it. I personally don't want to see Cape leave the project. I like his work. I think we all have to act a little more like mature adults here. This is a serious project, and it will take a lot of effort from every member of the community to pull off.

In short, can't we all just get along. Please?

If the Halo community can make mods, can't we? I hate to pull this card but... are we really worse than the HALO COMMUNITY!?!?!

 

[JayFizzy]

Im really sick of "(insert character) amazing its just that no one plays him. Definitely top 5 omg omg omg dont ask for buffs stupid noob."

Do you think were ****ing ********? We know the good characters from the bad. And if i had a character in top 5 for every time someone has said that a character is top 5 i would have a top 5 consisting of almost the entire cast.

 

[Potulol]

I hate to pull this card but... are we really worse than the HALO COMMUNITY!?!?!

yes.

well, maybe not as bad.

 

[leafgreen386]

Seriously? Really?

Every post that you make is one big troll as you try to antagonize people to build on your ego. The fact that you have not done anything positive for this project is shown due to your lack of any real skill towards the game or tournament experience. You also would rather just have recognition for making something in this game than having the game be good. We have all seen the fruits of that labor. Can you say Wolf nair in RC1? Did you even test your **** before you put it up?

Its people like you that will force Brawl+ to continue to suck. ****ty players that for some reason are in the WBR and have access to "decision making" when you do not host, attend, or play in tournaments. We have many of these people in the back room. GoodoldGanon is a completely casual player who makes assumptions about things off of a change list without actually testing it or playing it first. Ultimate failure with theory crafting there. Neko is a complete troll that is only in the back room due to the fact that he pays for the site, which is both sad and pathetic. Leaf is a nerdy high school kid with no friends and is power mad to be an OP on the IRC or a bully on the internet.

Thats your WBR in a nutshell, that is what has been producing Brawl+ up to this point and that is the reason it will continue to suck. I wanted to quit this stupid downhill project months ago and I think I have finally lost all patience with it. The WBR is a bunch of ******** morons who want to buff their own character and be revered as some kind of super heros for their subpar work instead of properly fixing this game as they should have been from the beginning.

If you WBR ******* want to keep trying to "balance" this game like you did RC1 then thats fine. More money for me and anyone else smart enough to abuse your ******** changes.


**** Brawl+. I'm out.

Well.

I can't say I expected your lid to blow off of a lighthearted comment like that. You couldn't have thought I was serious?

And yes, I troll the forums. So what? Everyone knows that. Just look at the new techniques thread. But, I do offer constructive posting when I'm not trolling. You gotta be able to take a joke, man.

You're also entirely wrong about me wanting recognition for being a part of brawl+. I couldn't care less if no one knew I was in the WBR. What good is recognition from people I've never met? What good would it do me to make changes just for the sake of making changes so I can say that I've "done" something? Recognition is worthless.

The reason I involve myself with the brawl+ project is because I want to see it become a fun, competitive, balanced game. Have I made screw-ups in the past? Sure I have. Haven't you? No one hangs over your head telling you about all the things you've messed up. Yet, you feel the need to continually press me for this one slip up. HEY GUESS WHAT? I'M ONLY HUMAN. I think the only people in the WBR who haven't made mistakes are the ones who haven't done anything. So what? Should we all just sit back and not do anything because we might mess up? No! There's a reason this is a community project. With many people working on something, the chance of something messed up making its way to the final product is greatly reduced. It is not, however, eliminated.

I like the way you called me "a nerdy high school kid with no friends and is power mad to be an OP on the IRC or a bully on the internet." Way to go overboard with personal insults which aren't even true. Except for being nerdy. I know I'm nerdy. I don't care. It's not really an insult. But I do have friends and I'm actually in college, not high school. As for the IRC thing... I'm a troll. We've established this already. Some people happen to find it entertaining, hence why I do it. Although "power mad" and "a bully on the internet" is pretty lol and is definitely you blowing things way out of proportion. If you're going to resort to personal insults, at least have some base behind them. Although even then, it has absolutely no bearing on what I have contributed or can contribute to this project.

So congrats. You managed to take a completely innocent joke and completely explode over it. Good to see you have such high regards for everyone. Not like we didn't already know what you thought of us after having developed your own set in secret, although it's nice to see you actually saying it "out loud."

The fact that this was enough reason for you to quit the project is kinda sad, really. You've been a huge contributor up until now, and you want to just throw it all away? Fine. Take the childish way out. Because that post could have been considered nothing if not childish. I'm disappointed in you, actually. If you really wanted brawl+ to succeed, you wouldn't be doing this. You wouldn't let yourself get enraged at the smallest provocation and quit. You wouldn't drop everything you've done and give up over a petty dispute. You wouldn't make a childish post like that while slinging personal insults with no base. You would stick with the project, and try to settle things in a more professional manner. I'm sorry to see you leaving cape. Truly a sad day.

 

[CloneHat]

Well, it had to happen eventually. I knew there are quite a few BRoomers who were "unsatisfied," and eventually this was going to present itself. I'd like to see some innovation like Cape's from the rest of the WBR.

It's been nice watching this project develop, but...

...I think I'll take a break from these forums, play some Melee, and I'll be back once I have my tourney planned out...

Bye

 

[Dantarion]

@leaf
I think this is more of a "the last straw" thing.

I too, have been annoyed lately at how unorganized everything is.
I don't have enough time to devote to this project to make it the way I want to be.

 

[Sails]

 

[Isatis]

Alright guys, please move the Cape discussion to the B+ IRC or somewhere else, not here.

<p style="display:none;">.</p>

 

[leafgreen386]

Well, if we can't talk about what happened with cape in here anymore, then we may as well discuss shieldstun... I'm just gonna c/p my post from before in case anyone missed it.

---

Attention: everyone

This post is required reading. Whether you realize it or not at first, this post pertains to everyone who has played cape's set.

I think I've let the shieldstun conversation go on long enough, seeing as we're now starting to talk about other stuff. Gonna start off with a little something about ganon to help prove my point, and then segue into the stuff you care about.

In RC1, shieldstun followed the formula of 2*floor(damage/3) + 5. Ganon's jab does 7%, so it would've dealt a total of 9 frames of shieldstun. Ganon's jab hits frame 3 and ends frame 23. The move has 20 frames of endlag. This gives the move a magnificent -11 advantage on block. Then there's another 3 frames before he can jab again, giving you a total of 13 frames to do something to get you out of this. Grab him. Drop your shield and jab him first. UpB. Usmash. Sh a nair. Do something. You have plenty of time to beat it.

This is the whole problem. People think the shieldstun is higher than it actually is, until they're told that it's been lowered, then they suddenly realize that everything they thought was broken actually isn't, since they actually try to get out of stuff now. Because they believe that the shieldstun is lower, even though it was actually raised. Yes. The shieldstun in cape's set is higher than in RC1. By 1 frame. For everything. The shieldstun growth was supposed to have been lowered, but it was actually left the same, and the additive value was increased instead.

This is the shieldstun code in GSH1:

Shieldstun [spunit262, 6 Lines]
C28753FC 00000005
83810034 8083013C
2C040000 41810014
1F9C0014 3B9C0028
3880000A 7F9C23D6
60000000 00000000

This is the shieldstun code in 5.0:

Shieldstun [spunit262, 6 Lines]
C28753FC 00000005
83810034 8083013C
2C040000 41810014
1F9C0014 3B9C0023
3880000A 7F9C23D6
60000000 00000000

The 14 (20 in hex) is the multiplier, the 23 (35 in hex) and 28 (40 in hex) are additives, and the A (10 in hex) is the divisor, which applies to both numbers. The values here give 3.5 as the final additive in the official build, which is treated as 3 in game. They give 4 as the final additive in cape's build. The final multiplier is 2 in both of them.

My conclusion? CAPE BE TROLLIN'

---

AND THAT LAST LINE IS A JOKE OK

 

[Alphatron]

This is actually why I didn't give much input on specifics for things and stuck to asking questions. I'm not much help as a community member myself. Which is why I just stick to cosmetic stuff and testing every now and then. Not that my title screen was used anyway.

In any case guys, we need to sttive for a better game. No more rushing stuff like what happened with RC1. I'm gonna start choosing characters I don't normally play so I can do some in depth testing with them and learn something for once.

And I know we shouldn't talk about it, but hopefully Cape will come back. A better game is a better game in the end.

About the shieldstun: I got placebo'd, I'll admit.

 

[Sterowent]

Well, it had to happen eventually.

It's been nice watching this project develop, but...

...I think I'll take a break from these forums...

Bye

same. this isn't a quitting measure, mind you, just a break.
finals Are coming up, after all.

oh man, psyched for B+ until then and always.

 

[Isatis]

If the Cape discussion does not stop, I'm locking this thread temporarily.

Now, let's discuss what leaf posted...minus the trolling part.

 

[goodoldganon]

Well that math is all there and anytime Leaf posts math it's been right. I'm not terribly surprised that it is a placebo effect that people think the shield stun is lower when it really isn't. Guess we gotta fix it and try it with a proper lower shield stun. I always felt shield stun was fine in 5.0 and didn't see a difference in this set. Interested to see what it is like when it's lower, have a feeling it might not be good.

 

[leafgreen386]

Well, considering cape's leaving message pretty much caused this thread to die... we don't seem to have much of anywhere to go now >_>

Somehow, I think letting the cape discussion happen would be far healthier for this thread than leaving it in the condition it's in now...

Brawl+ threads have been known to go off on tangents quite often, but they always do come back around...

 

[goodoldganon]

Let people cool off. It's near finals week and it's crunch time for a lot us (crunch time for holiday jobs, exams, etc etc.) We can and should come back to it after everyone has cooled off and has their head on straight. That's my opinion. Not really sure this discussion really belongs here anyway

 

[Isatis]

<strike>Well, seeing as how this beta came to an unexpected finish, I'll leave it up to you guys if you want me to lock this or not.</strike>

 

[ValTroX]

Well, you guys can keep upgrading the beta even though Cape is gone . Still, let it open in case you guys clear your heads up and chill.