Brawl+ Beta Build (GSH1) Discussion

[sffadsad]

Yeah. Which I think everybody understands. The whole point about changing other character's staple moves was a bit odd though, especially because Squirtle doesn't NEED the Fair. Yes, the change was a bit over the top, and should probably get a treatment more like the Kirby Bair. But still.

That's pretty much all that needs to be said. Squirtle is far from being ruined without his Fair, from what I've seen.

Also, changelist is broken. Peach changes = What?

This was your post Shadic. You didn't post anything about how you felt it should be changed aside from that offhand mention of Kirby's bair and even after that you added "But still" which lead me to believe you didn't view it as all that important. Placement of the phrase I originally quoted also led me to believe you just wanted to drop the subject. I've already apologized in case I misinterpreted, which I apparently did.

The reason I brought up that hypothetical about Link's dair was to try to compare the situation Squirtle was in with one that you might feel more strongly about.

I'm not trying to start any bad blood, honestly. If my post is read as flammatory it's not my intention. I'm simply trying to state facts and explain my own reasonings.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

For the record, I don't think the change to Squirtles F-air ruined squirtle, I think it just changed him in a way that made him too drastically different from what he once was. At worst, it drastically changed his play-style away from what it once was, and at best, it is now mostly ignored in favor of B-air WOPs. In short, instead of "fixing" a move, it felt more like the move was simply removed from his repertoire. The proposed changes we are talking about now, such as long wind down time and smaller hit box, will allow the move to still be used as an aerial approach (like it once was) but will fix its previous ability to go through... pretty much everything.

I never thought this discussion was about whether or not the Fair had to be changed, I think it was about HOW it should be changed.

 

[Alphatron]

http://www.mediafire.com/?mtozr2mt3ah

1. Rename to stcustom#.pac, where # is the same as that of the sse jungle file
2. ???
3. Profit!

Thanks! I take it this will work for anything made to replace temple?

Music's the only remaining problem, but that will have to wait. I was never fond of the tourney styled SSS to be honest.

 

[StarcraftLedZeppelin]

Man what was the point of the latest update?

 

[MK26]

Thanks! I take it this will work for anything made to replace temple?

Music's the only remaining problem, but that will have to wait. I was never fond of the tourney styled SSS to be honest.

yep. i pm'd pw with some more stuff, too. Stay tuned for more details.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Man what was the point of the latest update?

I think more to the point is where are the Ganon jab and Zelda usmash nerfs that was planned out?

I guess Cape needed more time to work on those ._.

 

[Yeroc]

Fixed the Edge Canceling code.

Edge Canceling, Dantarion & Yeroc
06586000 00000030
08000100 80586018
02010200 80FAF3EC
00090100 80586020
00000000 00000001
00000002 80FC1C18
00000002 80586000
06FC1C58 00000008
00090100 80586028

Also, plz add the 3 line replay code? It'd really help people remember to save them if the icon showed up all the time.

Infinite Replays (3 lines)
040E5DE8 60000000
04953184 60000000
04953224 60000000

 

[Dantarion]

Wait, Yeroc, wtf, when did I work on a edge canceling code?

 

[leafgreen386]

I think more to the point is where are the Ganon jab and Zelda usmash nerfs that was planned out?

I guess Cape needed more time to work on those ._.

Wait what. Since when was ganon getting a jab nerf? Why does he need a jab nerf?

 

[Yeroc]

Well Dant, you invented the code type. And I took your memory locations (though these new ones came from Almas) and routines, so you indirectly developed the code just as much as I did, is how I look at it.

 

[Isatis]

Sorry to interrupt, but guys, no more flaming/ranting, I'm gonna start issuing infractions.

Also, this thread is not for spamming random ideas or whining endlessly. Please post only constructive criticism. These changes are not absolute, and constructive feedback is welcome in an effort to best balance this game.

Yeroc: I will add that into the nightly GCT tonight if everyone's OK with me doing so.

 

[Dantarion]

Well Dant, you invented the code type. And I took your memory locations (though these new ones came from Almas) and routines, so you indirectly developed the code just as much as I did, is how I look at it.

Hugs<3
It better not suck though :D

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Wait what. Since when was ganon getting a jab nerf? Why does he need a jab nerf?

It should be fairly obvious why Ganon is getting a jab nerf.

Hits like a tilt to completely beat out other jabs, much quicker than opposing tilts to beat them before they even come out, and was safe on shield (Almost. You could forward roll. Spot dodge gets eaten by a subsequent jab, back roll gets wiztrucked on reaction. That is literally the only way out of it without taking enormous shield damage at best, and a good Ganon will take advantage of that). It was a stupidly spammable gtfo move that does its job almost too well, leaving the defender almost completely locked down with very little risk to Ganon himself, and Cape made the right call in wanting to nerf it a bit. All it really needs was a small bit of cooldown added to it to keep it being useful as a gtfo move without it being spammable, which was the planned out nerf last I heard. (+4 frames of endlag to the move was the nerf in question)

You're fortunate Cape hasn't taken Mow's suggestions to heart about Ganon. You'd be seeing alot more Ganon nerfs.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

Gannon was a force to be reckoned with in RC1. I was a gannon mainer for a while. Pretty much every one of his moves (Save utilt... of course) was spammable. As much as I hate to admit it, these nerfs are probably needed.

 

[GHNeko]

Too bad he was still no where near top tier. xD

Was he compensated for his nerfs?

It'd a bad thing to nerf a non-top/high tier character without compensation.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Not to my recollection he wasn't. I know Zelda wouldn't be compensated for her usmash nerf, which I personally didn't agree with (as Zelda without her smashes/dins = ************). Ganon, in this build, is still an extremely solid character even without it now that he's not complete combo fodder with lower hitstun, so he may or may not need compensation.

Point is I don't think any compensation was discussed.

 

[leafgreen386]

It should be fairly obvious why Ganon is getting a jab nerf.

Hits like a tilt to completely beat out other jabs, much quicker than opposing tilts to beat them before they even come out, and was safe on shield (Almost. You could forward roll. Spot dodge gets eaten by a subsequent jab, back roll gets wiztrucked on reaction. That is literally the only way out of it without taking enormous shield damage at best, and a good Ganon will take advantage of that). It was a stupidly spammable gtfo move that does its job almost too well, leaving the defender almost completely locked down with very little risk to Ganon himself, and Cape made the right call in wanting to nerf it a bit. All it really needs was a small bit of cooldown added to it to keep it being useful as a gtfo move without it being spammable, which was the planned out nerf last I heard. (+4 frames of endlag to the move was the nerf in question)

You're fortunate Cape hasn't taken Mow's suggestions to heart about Ganon. You'd be seeing alot more Ganon nerfs.

The move was already nerfed a while ago due to being too good against shields, though. And with lower shieldstun, I'd have thought the problem would entirely take care of itself. I agree that the move shouldn't be spammable against shields, but it should still be mostly safe against them. Four extra frames of lag is gigantic, and would give the foe more than enough advantage. If the foe has enough time to roll, then they should also have enough time to grab with at most +2 frames of lag.

This reminds me... what does everyone actually think of the lowered shieldstun in cape's set? I've been curious for a while what the general response is.

 

[GHNeko]

I agree to nerfing stuff that was too good even on a bad/so so character (ness fair, link dair a while ago, falcon bair) but compensation should be made for certain characters to keep them on par rather than to just drop them down, though said compensation should be on moves to compliment their metagame (lol what metagame) and playstyle rather than just putting buffs on random *** moves that dont deserve it (like for example, jiggly usmash. that wouldn't be a smart choice)

 

[Thunderhorse+]

The move was already nerfed a while ago due to being too good against shields, though. And with lower shieldstun, I'd have thought the problem would entirely take care of itself. I agree that the move shouldn't be spammable against shields, but it should still be mostly safe against them. Four extra frames of lag is gigantic, and would give the foe more than enough advantage. If the foe has enough time to roll, then they should also have enough time to grab with at most +2 frames of lag.

This reminds me... what does everyone actually think of the lowered shieldstun in cape's set? I've been curious for a while what the general response is.

If +4 frames of endlag is too much, we can always tweak it. I haven't tried out the Ganon jab nerf myself, so I couldn't say one way or the other.

As for the decreased shieldstun, I actually rather like it. I was initially against it at first, but it does prevent some stupidity on shields (Diddy's nanners don't lock down quite as stupidly, certain careless aerial approaches such as Ganon's fair and Falco's dair can't be abused as much, makes certain smashes *coughWariofsmashcough* not completely ridiculous on shield) while still keeping a healthy dose of pressure on the defender. I think it's a change for the better that should be incorporated, whether we decide to build on this set or keep building on RC1.

 

[GHNeko]

Diddy nanners still need Brawl shield stun. I **** you not.

 

[Shadic]

Sorry to interrupt, but guys, no more flaming/ranting, I'm gonna start issuing infractions.

Sorry. I was misbehaving.

Anyways, zxeon, matt4300, and I all would like to at least try Link bombs with a bit more BKB. Can we get that for the next beta, please? They'd be more helpful, especially against fast-fallers, if they bounced people up more.

 

[CountKaiser]

lol G&W

Why was he given a killing throw? I think that was a bit unneccesary.

Though uthrow having less base is a nice addition. I'll be sure to test this out.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

Personally, with b-throw as a kill throw, I think now's a good time to give b-throw a slight slow down in animation. As of right now, the start of b-throw and u-throw look exactly the same (d-throw is sped up, so you can already differentiate that), so at higher percentages, the person is likely to DI forward, fearing the b-throw, so a G&W can u-throw and pretty much know where the DI is. With a slow-down of b-throw, a person with quick enough reaction can differentiate between up, back, and down throw, and can DI accordingly. (F-throw has a different start-up animation than the other three, already.) But the difference is speed won't be enough to totally get rid of the unknown factor unless that person is extremely fast on reaction, so it won't be that bad. Personally, with a kill-throw in the mix, I think there needs to be a way to differentiate it.
Just something on my mind...

 

[matt4300]

@_@ all I see is BOWSER NERFS, G&W BUFFS, and PEACH??

lol at g&w getting a kill throw and mario uthrow and 3/4ths of bowsers throws getting hard nerfed at one time...

Glad uthrow got nerfed but the others did not need to be nerfed this hard...

Im not gonna critisize till I try it though... It doesnt look like a good update save for the tlink nerf >_>

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

...Oh great, Game & Watch. Now cheaper than he already was. >_>

 

[GHNeko]

Personally, with b-throw as a kill throw, I think now's a good time to give b-throw a slight slow down in animation. As of right now, the start of b-throw and u-throw look exactly the same (d-throw is sped up, so you can already differentiate that), so at higher percentages, the person is likely to DI forward, fearing the b-throw, so a G&W can u-throw and pretty much know where the DI is. With a slow-down of b-throw, a person with quick enough reaction can differentiate between up, back, and down throw, and can DI accordingly. (F-throw has a different start-up animation than the other three, already.) But the difference is speed won't be enough to totally get rid of the unknown factor unless that person is extremely fast on reaction, so it won't be that bad. Personally, with a kill-throw in the mix, I think there needs to be a way to differentiate it.
Just something on my mind...

tbh, i dont see an issue with gaw's uthrow/bthrow being the exact same animation wise. That's a mental buff for him really.

 

[Magus420]

Parameter 5 of Bowser's u-throw needs to be changed to 0 (currently 120) if you want it to actually have growth and not set KB. It's still going to have the same amount of KB from 0-999 damage until you remove it.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Hmm. G&W is already good at being a tremendous ******* sometimes, especially that being building damage with Bairs. Giving him a throw that kills sounds VERY bad to me. This should really not be how it works. I honestly thought that his throw were fine how they were and didn't need to be touched. His Dthrow -> mind game -> killing attack was a good enough kill set up as it is. He doesn't need to be more EZ mode, which is all I can see coming from a killing throw.

And why the hell would poor Bowser get a Bthrow nerf? I think he really needs it being good, especially considering how many smaller, more agile characters give him a hard time as it is. He needs every little thing that he can get.

And is it just me, or is Wario getting worse? Not even intentionally, that it. I've played Wario for a long time and I've always done ok with him, but now I feel like he is having a harder, and harder time keeping up with the rest of the cast.

 

[GHNeko]

His Dthrow -> mind game -> killing attack was a good enough kill set up as it is.

Except that Tech Speed virtually ***** this because GaW's dash isnt fast enough for him to keep up. So even when you read properly, his dash and usmash combined are just too slow to use reliably on super majority of the roster.

A killing throw isnt bad for him. He's got one semi-reliable way to kill.

As for wario. The cast is getting buffed. he isnt, so of course it seems like he is getting worse because really, in comparison, he is.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Honestly though, why does G&W really need a killing throw? It just doesn't seem necessary. He is just as hard to fight as always, having disjointed hitboxes/good priority, and plenty of people seem like they can pull off the kill with him just fine.

And ****, I feel like Wario has no answers to fighting characters with range nowadays, like Lucario and G&W, for example. I try to get up close, but it just doesn't work that well. And of course I try to get around that, but it is only getting harder as every other character gets buffed. I don't really know how Wario could be buffed, in a fair way, anyway. I just can't think of anything.

And unfortunately, I couldn't really get any replays from the tournament today. However, disregarding what I just said, there was ONE replay that got saved between Fow and SK92, which happen to be our best players. However, that one replay is on a different Wii, and I didn't get to copy it to my SD card. The matches between them are ridiculous though. They're both pretty beastly.

I'm really hoping those "bigger" changes get worked out and put in to effect in the Beta soon. So many things sound like great ideas, but I guess we just have to wait.

 

[GHNeko]

I dont see what the issue is with giving GaW a semi-reliable kill throw. We dont even know the percents, so really, it could be a mediocre one. V:

 

[RPGsFTW]

I dont see what the issue is with giving GaW a semi-reliable kill throw. We dont even know the percents, so really, it could be a mediocre one. V:

That's what I'm hoping for. I don't mind a throw killing when damage gets to ridiculous amounts, like Wario's Fthrow actually killing around 200+ or whatever.

And have Peach's new changes been announced yet? Just question marks doesn't help, lol.

 

[Dan_X]

And have Peach's new changes been announced yet? Just question marks doesn't help, lol.

As far as I know her parasol has been replaced by a series of windboxes, making it blow all nearby players away for the entire duration that the parasol would be out (remeber the parasol is invisible). In addition, all of her smash attacks are now windbox-based.

It's pretty balanced as far as I can tell.

 

[CountKaiser]

I don't mind G&W's throws being buffed, since it was previously pointless to grab with G&W as all his throws, save dthrow, were nigh useless.

And dthrow techchasing is worthless with usmash, for the reasons Neko said.

That, and G&W has only one kill setup, which isn't that reliable. (ff nair -> dsmash)

 

[MK26]

As far as I know her parasol has been replaced by a series of windboxes, making it blow all nearby players away for the entire duration that the parasol would be out (remeber the parasol is invisible). In addition, all of her smash attacks are now windbox-based.

It's pretty balanced as far as I can tell.

lololol i thought you were serious for a second

and no SSS testers makes me

 

[Dan_X]

lololol i thought you were serious for a second

haha!

10windboxes.

I think Neko should release his own nightlies that convert all the hitboxes in the game to windboxes.

 

[Alphatron]

I'd test the SSS if the Wii could be used as a reliable computer.

*Wii post*

I'd like to see Veril's data on throws. Unfortunately, I wouldn't be much help with them and how he planned to optimize them.

Thing with GaW, is that while he was a dang easy character to learn, you could live forever against him if you knew what you were doing. I guess I'm bothered that the bthrow makes him more noob friendly.

 

[shanus]

Fixed the Edge Canceling code.

Edge Canceling, Dantarion & Yeroc
06586000 00000030
08000100 80586018
02010200 80FAF3EC
00090100 80586020
00000000 00000001
00000002 80FC1C18
00000002 80586000
06FC1C58 00000008
00090100 80586028

Also, plz add the 3 line replay code? It'd really help people remember to save them if the icon showed up all the time.

Infinite Replays (3 lines)
040E5DE8 60000000
04953184 60000000
04953224 60000000

What did you do to it?

I just see addition of a change action. Does this allow the character to teeter on the edge?

 

[Kaotical]

The main thing about the addition of a kill throw for G&W is that his grabbing and throwing game were nearly useless. Now he has something he can do if he grabs you other than add a little damage with some unreliable set-ups.

 

[Alondite]

And ****, I feel like Wario has no answers to fighting characters with range nowadays, like Lucario and G&W, for example. I try to get up close, but it just doesn't work that well. And of course I try to get around that, but it is only getting harder as every other character gets buffed. I don't really know how Wario could be buffed, in a fair way, anyway. I just can't think of anything.

I think I'm in general agreement with this, though not just pertaining to Wario. A lot of characters seem to just have a hard time getting in with certain matchups. Sure, they may do great when they do get in, but they have to get in first. I typically notice the problem in matchups with a short-ranged character against disjointed characters. For example, I can't do -anything- against Marth with, say, Mario. Marth is too fast and outranges Mario on everything, and his fireballs are too slow and predictable to really give him any ranged option. I mean just a wall of retreating fairs prevents Mario from doing anything. They outrange everything Mario has that he can reasonably approach with and leave Marth safe even on shield.