Shadic
Alakadoof?
Dair? No, it's tied for the laggiest landing move in the game, at 25 frames. Only Dedede ties it, with his Dair.
At least, according to what data you gave us.
At least, according to what data you gave us.
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Brawl+ Beta Build (GSH1) Discussion
- Thread starter Isatis
- Start date
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Shadic
Alakadoof?
Yeah, a move that kills at 107% on a Mario without DI on Final Destination. It's... Slightly stronger than the good hit of a MK UpB.
Shadic
Alakadoof?
He'd sure be better at that if he could grab characters that were in the air.
And I'm not saying Dair is a horrid move, but it's got pretty crap range, and priority issues because of it.
And I'm not saying Dair is a horrid move, but it's got pretty crap range, and priority issues because of it.
Shadic
Alakadoof?
No, he can't. Have Mario stand to the side of a platform on Battlefield. Stand ontop of said platform, and set CPU to 'Jump.' Try and grab him.
You can't.
You can grab people that are in HITSTUN, but that's far from the same thing.
You can't.
You can grab people that are in HITSTUN, but that's far from the same thing.
Veril
Frame Savant
Shadic
Alakadoof?
IN HITSTUN : GRAB = POSSIBLE
IN AIR NOT HITSTUN: GRAB = FAIL
I'm not sure if you can grab during an aerial attack... I should try that one.
Oh I get it. >_> ...I think. I don't know. What are you saying?
Shadic
Alakadoof?
Well then. You agree it's stupid?
Shadic
Alakadoof?
I can't assume anything with you WBRoomers, you guys are weird.
Only Link, Samus, and TL have tether grabs that can't grab airborne characters at the same range as standing characters. These characters can in fact grab people out of the air, but it has to be at standing grab range.
Alfa
Smash Apprentice
^ IIRC, for Link, the part where he can grab airborne characters is where his hand flashes at the beginning of the grab animation. This is probably the case for Samus/Gay too, if there is a flash.
Dan_X
Smash Lord
Interesting. Tbh, it might be op if tethers could grab out of air at full tether range instead of close range only. I'm not against said change, I'll certainly try it out. After all, there's no way to tell until it gets tested. However, I'd say it could be borderline op.
Imagine if we had a code that made it possible to slide off ledges and platforms? That'd be hilarious... Think of how huge of a change being able to slide off the ledge would be. It actually might be kind of cool. Imagine Snake snak dashing and sliding of the edge. Haha. Hmm what else would it effect? I think it could be pretty cool, but who knows.
There must be a way to make it so you can slide off ledges and platforms with momentum. I mean... Falcon, and ganondorf's side+bs slide right off. Maybe we can take apart the coding of their moves and see why? Can Ike side B off the edge? It might be kind of cool...
Anyway, just a random idea...
Dantarion
Smash Champion
We could try that.
I have played around with being able to roll off edges, it was pretty fun.
I have played around with being able to roll off edges, it was pretty fun.
If this were any other game, I'd be inclined to agree. However killing at such a percentage in B+ is actually considered above mediocre. I suppose Leaf's post regarding KO ability explains it well enough. If anything, it's something we should consider for the entire cast...increased KO ability.
The Links's dairs are also one of the safer cross-ups in the game, the little bounce effect making the two moves one of the safer ones on block.
Hmm, it seems to have worked on Marth or anyone around his general gravity settings. Or rather, it would have worked on Marth if he did not have a 5 frame string breaker. Also jabs have low growth (obv) and so does dthrow. You could chain this for a while, and I believe the angle has been buffed so you can't perfect DI like TL's, so DI doesn't absolutely crush this pseudo-string. Then at the last dthrow you can utilt I think. It seems to probably give Link a larger % advantage than vBrawl Falco off his chaingrab (for a comparison of % dependent combo/string leads).It doesn't seem to work on anybody other than a Fastfaller past 40% or so, even without DI.
And I don't see how you could want to nerf Link, with people at the same time complaining about Squirtle nerfs. Was Link even represented at BTL2?
It's nothing against Link, but the buff itself seems to have made more sense on a character that lacks efficient combo and damage racking set-ups. I assume this anyway, since I suppose it was meant to be able to combo into utilt, dsmash, instant dash attack, and only be strings with grab and UpB.
Maybe a half-year ago it'd make sense, but now it just seems tacked on off the pretense that "Link still cannot handle the majority of the cast."
Can't sugarcoat this due to time restraints. And yes WBR members are very weird. =V
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
This. Lets make character die faster. And i mean buff EVERY kill move in the game. AND make edgeguarding better. Oh, and the uthrow change was dumb. Same with fair.
CloneHat
Smash Champion
lol now I see why the BRoom exists.
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
lol now I see why you are not in the BRoom and never will be.
CloneHat
Smash Champion
As long as the BRoom stays as it is now, I'll never have to be.
Guys, break it up and stay on topic <_>
JCaesar
Smash Hero
If it's glitchy, then yeah, it's got to go. It doesn't make a huge difference anyway.
Didn't we already do that once, and it was still one of the lowest % guaranteed grab-kill combos in the game?
I do agree the up-B was overnerfed. The only problem with it was how strong the hitboxes at the end of the move were.
Maybe it's just me but I found the larger fsmash tip much easier to land. I went from landing 1 or 2 fsmash tips per game to landing 5 or 6.
Someone came up with the idea of having ledge invincibility time decrease with successive grabs, but reset whenever you are hit or touch ground. I think this would be a better solution to planking than some arbitrary limit on ledgegrabs.
I would like to see all characters killing better in general. We could just take all the kill moves in the game, decrease the BKB, and increase the KBG, so they work about the same at low %s but kill better.
As for Squirtle, within the context of the 5.0 release, he was overpowered, and these nerfs made the most sense to balancing him (and were suggested by one of the best tournament Squirtle players, Guru). The uthrow led to guaranteed <100% kills (which very few characters have) and the fair was an amazing walling move on a character as mobile as Squirtle.
...Moves' hitboxes being adjusted to fit the animation normally means more success with hitting it. <_<
Like. The Fsmash never really needed it, as it was nothing but a graphical fix, but the common sense behind making things....work properly would normally mean that better results would be a side-effect you know.
When things dont work right = worse results
When things work right = better results.
Seemed kinda obvious to me.
Like. The Fsmash never really needed it, as it was nothing but a graphical fix, but the common sense behind making things....work properly would normally mean that better results would be a side-effect you know.
When things dont work right = worse results
When things work right = better results.
Seemed kinda obvious to me.
MK26
Smash Master
This. 1.2x kb, iirc
CountKaiser
Smash Lord
Instead of tweaking ALL of the kill moves in the game, which will no doubt take a long time, why not just make all the characters lighter (with maybe G&W and Jiggs as the exceptions) and increase their gravities a bit to make them easier to combo.
Jiangjunizzy
Smash Lord
Well, if you guys are really planning on making the gravity in the game higher, then you don't need to worry about increasing the power on kill moves just yet. With the higher gravity, characters will die more often to gimps and/or just not making it back to the stage and among other gravity/KB influenced factors which will help KO earlier. What you'll probably end up fixing are just the ceiling kill moves.
CountKaiser
Smash Lord
Well, how much higher will the gravity be?
I don't want all floaties to be obliterated.
I don't want all floaties to be obliterated.
JCaesar
Smash Hero
Actually yeah, I think better physics will go a long way to making the game faster. Maybe kill moves are fine.
Leaf said it wasn't any easier to hit with. I disagree. That's all. If you wanna make the tip bigger and match the animation better, that's fine, but don't pretend it's not a buff, because it is.
The Cape
Smash Master
The F smash change is definetly a buff as its a range increase. Goes a long way in that sense.
As for the problems killing its mostly due to the speed of the game. Better physics to get people off the ground quicker and allow them to peak jumps faster while still acting about the same otherwise would go a long way. This would make the recovery game tighter, leading to more edgeguards and earlier KOs and it would also allow the combos to bring more pressure on the opponents and therefore setup to KO percents quicker and easier.
As for the problems killing its mostly due to the speed of the game. Better physics to get people off the ground quicker and allow them to peak jumps faster while still acting about the same otherwise would go a long way. This would make the recovery game tighter, leading to more edgeguards and earlier KOs and it would also allow the combos to bring more pressure on the opponents and therefore setup to KO percents quicker and easier.
Offtopic but.. can a mod unban me from the chat? lol I was spamming last night at 1:30 am or so. Toronto was too legit.
And:
http://www.smashboards.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=8960189
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8877367&postcount=63 Yes!.
And:
http://www.smashboards.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=8960189
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8877367&postcount=63 Yes!.
Dan_X
Smash Lord
I'm all for fixing Marth's fsmash to fit the animation, even if it is a buff.
I think we should work to tighten the gameplay (gravity) in the next few builds. I understand we're going to make it so characters reach the apex of their jump faster. This will definately speed up gameplay. My only concern is making sure floaty characters such as Jiggs and Wario maintain their floatiness. Some characters will need less gravity changes as their gameplay must be preserved.
I'm fine with FFDT being removed. We don't need to buff defense.
I feel that making gravity changes is goin to be rather difficult. We have to ensure that we don't break anything accidentally. For example, I feel that Falco's gravity is perfect. He's swift, his SHSL mechanics are perfect. If were going to increase grav I wouldn't want Falco to suddenly feel crappy. Characters reaching the apex of their jump faster will probably have less negatives, as it's only speeding up their jump. Basically, I'm just needlessly concerned that we'll go overboard and ruin characters that already feel great (like Falco).
I think we should work to tighten the gameplay (gravity) in the next few builds. I understand we're going to make it so characters reach the apex of their jump faster. This will definately speed up gameplay. My only concern is making sure floaty characters such as Jiggs and Wario maintain their floatiness. Some characters will need less gravity changes as their gameplay must be preserved.
I'm fine with FFDT being removed. We don't need to buff defense.
I feel that making gravity changes is goin to be rather difficult. We have to ensure that we don't break anything accidentally. For example, I feel that Falco's gravity is perfect. He's swift, his SHSL mechanics are perfect. If were going to increase grav I wouldn't want Falco to suddenly feel crappy. Characters reaching the apex of their jump faster will probably have less negatives, as it's only speeding up their jump. Basically, I'm just needlessly concerned that we'll go overboard and ruin characters that already feel great (like Falco).
The only issue that could possibly be caused by gravity changes are things like Ganon's thunderstomp and Wolf's AC fair being more difficult or impossible to perform, or time based techniques like TL's shorthop arrow techs, Fox's SHDL, and Falco's SHFFL, as well as certain double aerial combinations (Marth) suffering the same fate.
But hey, that's a lot of things though! But unlike back in January, there's PSA, and therefore the ability to both gain lovely new physics while keeping staple tactics to the same amount of difficulty as it is now.
But hey, that's a lot of things though! But unlike back in January, there's PSA, and therefore the ability to both gain lovely new physics while keeping staple tactics to the same amount of difficulty as it is now.
The Cape
Smash Master
Edit:
Changes that I feel could be made for useage of moves
Pit more Ugrav (Look into autocancel uair and nair)
Charizard more Ugrav
Ivysaur more Ugrav
ROB more Ugrav
Sonic more U grav (Just need to look at autocancel fair)
Link more U grav
Mario more U grav (Look into autocancel uair (but remove second aerial function)
Changes that I feel could be made for useage of moves
Pit more Ugrav (Look into autocancel uair and nair)
Charizard more Ugrav
Ivysaur more Ugrav
ROB more Ugrav
Sonic more U grav (Just need to look at autocancel fair)
Link more U grav
Mario more U grav (Look into autocancel uair (but remove second aerial function)
GameSystem
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2008
- Messages
- 314
I don't know, that would kill some characters' under platform game. Think of Bowser or Marth and utilt spam. Even other characters have setups off platforms because there isn't much room the other guy can move.
MXXD123
Smash Journeyman
While I agree some characters like link need more ugrav some character's don't make sense like Pit and Sonic, why not just speed up the animation a bit to make it auto canceled, it wouldn't hurt right? Why fix something that was never really broken?
The Cape
Smash Master
Sonic Fair and Pit Uair and Nair already currently autocancel.
Fixing their physics to allow them more up and down movement improves combo potential for Sonic and pressuring (and upB) for Pit. I just wanted to make sure that we preserved those auto cancels with the changed physics is all.
Fixing their physics to allow them more up and down movement improves combo potential for Sonic and pressuring (and upB) for Pit. I just wanted to make sure that we preserved those auto cancels with the changed physics is all.
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