Brawl+ Beta Build (GSH1) Discussion

[leafgreen386]

@Squirtle discussion: I've actually felt that both the fair and uthrow nerfs were unnecessary. The fair's safety on block was already reduced due to the lowered shieldstun, which alone was a pretty substantial nerf to it. The uthrow nerf makes grabbing pretty much worthless for anything except a small amount of damage for a ~40% window or so. I'd have rather seen the uair have slightly nerfed growth, so uthrow -> uair would still combo once the foe got to higher percents, but it wouldn't necessarily kill so early.

@Alphatron: It depends on who I'm playing as and against, but usually at least once a match I'll live to 150%+, and I almost always live to 120%+, except when gimped.

"Brawl, where 78% is gimp." This still applies to brawl+ imo. Most characters only have one or two good kill setups, and if you can avoid those, you end up living for quite a while. Recoveries are generally good enough that your opponent will be edgeguarding you for quite a while if they want to gimp you (unless you just get low-percent spiked).

I don't think staying alive for a long time is all that difficult, really. Players should always be conscious of what their opponent is doing; the most important traps to avoid are your own.

...

I find this amusing. The reason squirtle had his uthrow nerfed was because he could kill at around 100% with uthrow -> uair if he got a grab. And this is considered "too good." In the same post, I talk about how characters live forever in brawl+. Perhaps squirtle is right where he should be... and it's the other characters are the ones that have a problem. Food for thought.

 

[CountKaiser]

@Squirtle discussion: I've actually felt that both the fair and uthrow nerfs were unnecessary. The fair's safety on block was already reduced due to the lowered shieldstun, which alone was a pretty substantial nerf to it. The uthrow nerf makes grabbing pretty much worthless for anything except a small amount of damage for a ~40% window or so. I'd have rather seen the uair have slightly nerfed growth, so uthrow -> uair would still combo once the foe got to higher percents, but it wouldn't necessarily kill so early.

@Alphatron: It depends on who I'm playing as and against, but usually at least once a match I'll live to 150%+, and I almost always live to 120%+, except when gimped.

"Brawl, where 78% is gimp." This still applies to brawl+ imo. Most characters only have one or two good kill setups, and if you can avoid those, you end up living for quite a while. Recoveries are generally good enough that your opponent will be edgeguarding you for quite a while if they want to gimp you (unless you just get low-percent spiked).

I don't think staying alive for a long time is all that difficult, really. Players should always be conscious of what their opponent is doing; the most important traps to avoid are your own.

...

I find this amusing. The reason squirtle had his uthrow nerfed was because he could kill at around 100% with uthrow -> uair if he got a grab. And this is considered "too good." In the same post, I talk about how characters live forever in brawl+. Perhaps squirtle is right where he should be... and it's the other characters are the ones that have a problem. Food for thought.

I wouldn't mind more characters having better kill setups. I always found it annoying how long characters could live in brawl+. Against my friends, I can consistently live to 150+, provoking much ire since I use ness and he isn't exactly a heavyweight.

 

[leafgreen386]

edit: need to check something

edit2: Yeah nvm

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I liked the squirtle nerfs. They make him more challenging to play and gives the player an opportunity to be more creative. I'm all for undumbifying the cast.

 

[leafgreen386]

I liked the squirtle nerfs. They make him more challenging to play and gives the player an opportunity to be more creative. I'm all for undumbifying the cast.

And how does reducing squirtle's options give the player the "opportunity" to be creative?

 

[CountKaiser]

It forces them to look for new ways to kill the opponent.

 

[leafgreen386]

It forces them to look for new ways to kill the opponent.

Forcing a player to do something and giving them the "opportunity" to do something are two completely different things. Not to mention that landing a grab against a good player isn't exactly the easiest thing in the world to begin with. The uthrow nerf at least is completely unjustified imo.

 

[Shadic]

I think Fair was ridiculous in 5.0, not sure how it'd work now with the hitstun change, though.

 

[Revven]

And shieldstun, don't forget that shieldstun was lowered so it's obv. less safe on shield too.

 

[Alphatron]

I wouldn't mind more characters having better kill setups. I always found it annoying how long characters could live in brawl+. Against my friends, I can consistently live to 150+, provoking much ire since I use ness and he isn't exactly a heavyweight.

This is sort of what I was getting at. Maybe its just preference but the speed of the match is really determined by this. Not asking for easier setups into kill moves...just characters killing sooner in general. Aside from the ones who build damage easily.

Meh, its late. I'm probably not making much sense.

 

[grim mouser]

So f-air could have had its KB nerfed. It didn't have to be turned into an out-of-character, slow "kill move."

Wasn't the issue partly its kill power to begin with? The f-air nerf, therefore, was simply a slowdown. The kill power change is irrelevant.

Is the long-stock-life issue a gravity thing?

 

[Dan_X]

And how does reducing squirtle's options give the player the "opportunity" to be creative?

This.

I too agree that Squirtles fair and uthrow change were unwarranted and should be reverted back. If a change feels terribly out of place...it likely is and should be changed back.

I consider Squirtle my second, or near second, and since the change I haven't found him to be as fun. I consider Lucas's Fair to be very similar to Squirtles old Fair. If you DI poorly you can get caught in 2-3 fairs, which can lead to a horizontal death into the left or right death boundries. Why should Lucas have moves like this and not Squirtle. Lucas is fast, with few exceptions, Squirtle is supposed to be fast too.

Despite set-ups into the new slow and awkward fair it's pretty terrible. It needs to be done away with. Also, if you get grabbed you get grabbed. You deserve to get KOed. With that said, there's nothing wrong with uthrow to uair KOing. If it kills too early change the growth like Leaf suggested above. Many characters have killer options out of a throw, this should not be an exception. I'm sure Falcon can kill plenty early enough with uthrow to knee (especially near the edge), and yet that is fine.

 

[JCaesar]

The reason squirtle had his uthrow nerfed was because he could kill at around 100% with uthrow -> uair if he got a grab.

More like 80-90, but yeah, characters in general don't kill well enough. That's partly why 4-stock matches take sooo long. ****, as ROB, living to 200% on a big stage is not uncommon. I just played a ROB vs MK match tonight with 3 stocks on Battlefield and there was only 30 seconds left when the (adittedly campy) MK player finally died.

A couple (very good) players I know tried the beta for the first time tonight, both Falcon players, and they both really hated the new Falcon. They said he was just no fun to play after the nerfs. That's why I'm thinking, maybe instead of nerfing the hell out of the top tiers, maybe we should be giving serious buffs to the rest of the cast instead. I think people would find it more fun overall (as long as we don't make another RC1 Ness).

Oh and I played some Melee today, and man oh man I wish B+ wasn't so floaty...

 

[Revven]

Oh and I played some Melee today, and man oh man I wish B+ wasn't so floaty...

Annddd... this is partially why the hitstun change doesn't really work well because we didn't tweak ANY gravity. The gravity we have now may have worked for .4865 hitstun but, with lower hitstun, it's obvious people are going to be dying later... and later... and later... unless there's a physics change.

Complete overhaul plz. No moar floaties, mayhaps? :o (You may all now get ready to slap me for suggesting that).

Oh btw, why is FFDT in this set? It's major bugginess and helps ADs a **** ton. "Wut bugs?" Uhh... try FF'ing as Sonic RIGHT as you Up B, you should fall the opposite direction (back onto the spring) as though he never took off. I saw it happen on 5ive's stream and I've experienced it before in the older set we tested FFDT in. Maybe it's just me but, I don't think so. :x

 

[The Cape]

Went through and cleaned up the Falcon, got some .pac testing to do and gonna have Greg look at it. The biggest change to Falcon is the fact that the ridiculously high hitstun gave him a good long time to set up any and all followups, now he has to read DI a bit better.

The Squirtle fair was a nerf thought up by Gurukid as Squirtle's fair (which is a high priority move) and similar to bair is now different and used for combo finishers and KOs instead of just about everything. U throw to uair was one of the lowest throw combos KOing in the game and Squirtle had no trouble building damage. His sheer priority on fair was the reason why the speed nerf was put into place with a slight KO power buff to compensate. The exact reasoning can be filled in by Gurukid and I can ask him to come give his opinions on it.

Got a few more minor updates that I can put in once I have tested them out. Few minor clean ups including Falcon and Bowser that should assist the characters a good deal.

FFDT is in this set as it allows more mobility during tumble for the player to assist with their lack of AD. This does not make FF ADes out of combos overpowered as you cannot AD during tumble as is, but it still gives you the aerial mobility even without the AD.

 

[Sterowent]

i like where this is going.

for the record, i'm all for that. if you consider stocks in measurements per game, 64 would be a 10 meter tall hill, fairly steep, and you could climb this reliably in one go. in melee, i'd say it's about the same, but you couldn't always climb it in one go, and it was really steep, slippery slope. in brawl+, you've got a 17-18 meter tall climb that has a slope around that of 64's, somewhat less steep.

the problem lies in how long these journeys go for. i really dislike brawl percent stocks because of how much they slow down the progression of gameplay and how wide they make the middle grounds of stocks, or, that is, [kill] combo haven.

anyway, i like metaphors...still.

 

[grim mouser]

On the topic of character-specific changes, I feel Marth was changed too dramatically. Over the past few sets, Marth has been shifted toward a "glass cannon" type of character, with a large focus on offense and less focus on defensive tactics (e.g. f-air wall).

It seems counter-intuitive to remove all those changes for a redesigned Marth, especially if 5.0 "RC1" was intended to be a minor-tweak build close to "Gold."

Of course, I'm not suggesting the changes were random or without thought. However, I do wonder how it was decided to toss out a few builds' worth of work to try something new.

 

[Revven]

FFDT is in this set as it allows more mobility during tumble for the player to assist with their lack of AD. This does not make FF ADes out of combos overpowered as you cannot AD during tumble as is, but it still gives you the aerial mobility even without the AD.

It's still buggy though and it's really, really, bad to have a buggy code in the set. D:

 

[The Cape]

It seems counter-intuitive to remove all those changes for a redesigned Marth, especially if 5.0 "RC1" was intended to be a minor-tweak build close to "Gold."

This was actually not really the intention, this was just something that was said and got out of hand.

For Marth, the moves that were reverted had been buffed in a way that actually put them into the realm of "silly powerful" such as U tilt KOing with max DI at 130, but also comboing very well at low percents due to its high growth rate. The F smash tip increase, making the move very simple to land, and the throw IASAs that allows Marth to toss you around like a rag doll and then slap you with his sword.

The changes that were removed or toned down were some of these silly powerful changes, not saying that Marth will stay this way for sure, but he is at a more dealable level for change now than he was in RC1. Not saying that the character was "too good" but some of the moves he had, on an already solid character were a good deal beyond what was neccesary. Just because Marth has been changed to what he is now does not mean this will be the final Marth. When I was building the set I just removed all the silly powerful moves from the characters and Marths were ones that I could not find proper ways to repolish as they were already good moves from the start of vBrawl.

Be willing to hear ideas about it though.


Falco400: Can you send me a list of the bugs that happen with the code so that I can look into them? I wasnt aware it was a buggy code, I just thought we left it out due to the FF during tumble with an AD turned out to be a very powerful mechanism in the past.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

I'm still kind of bitter about the removal of Marth's ability to reverse Dolphin Slash off stage for a finisher. I don't mind the power-down of up-b's power, just the fact that the hitbox change was reverted to the original

 

[VietGeek]

speaking of crazy changes, can't Link do jab 1 -> 2, dthrow, rinse repeat? It's a pseudo-CG that's definitely a string, but I'm sure not all the characters that it works against have anything to break out of it.

Considering Link already got a UpB power and linking buff, the ability to even jab cancel consistently into more rewarding moves makes me wonder if we've been underestimating Link for too long; somewhat the same with Ganondorf (or rather his jab in everyone's favorite CCless game).

Or if we just constantly think about how poor they are versus Falco. <_<

I'm still kind of bitter about the removal of Marth's ability to reverse Dolphin Slash off stage for a finisher. I don't mind the power-down of up-b's power, just the fact that the hitbox change was reverted to the original

Technically the main hitbox (HB1) is reversible, so if you hit in the middle of Marth's body, you can get a Melee reverse DS, albeit retardedly difficult to pull off.

The secondary 'true' reverse (HB2) sends upward, relatively useful on WarioWare; relatively sadface elsewhere.

I'd much prefer that we make another hitbox, taking the spot of where HB1 would be reversible, make it the vertical sweetspot, and turn HB2 to the HB1 angle.

However instead of shifting the hitbox out like in RC1, we maintain its size and offsets to prevent any glitchy sweetspots (RC1).

 

[grim mouser]

That makes sense.

The original idea for f-smash's tip increase was to fix animation incongruity. The tip of the animation could pass through a character without them being hit. This also happens with u-tilt (and maybe some other attacks?). With the ability to make hitboxes visible, is it feasible to redo the tip increase to properly fulfill its purpose?

 

[leafgreen386]

More like 80-90, but yeah, characters in general don't kill well enough. That's partly why 4-stock matches take sooo long. ****, as ROB, living to 200% on a big stage is not uncommon. I just played a ROB vs MK match tonight with 3 stocks on Battlefield and there was only 30 seconds left when the (adittedly campy) MK player finally died.

A couple (very good) players I know tried the beta for the first time tonight, both Falcon players, and they both really hated the new Falcon. They said he was just no fun to play after the nerfs. That's why I'm thinking, maybe instead of nerfing the hell out of the top tiers, maybe we should be giving serious buffs to the rest of the cast instead. I think people would find it more fun overall (as long as we don't make another RC1 Ness).

Oh and I played some Melee today, and man oh man I wish B+ wasn't so floaty...

Truth is, the floatiness is the reason characters live as long as they do. People talk about the "deep" ledge game that comes from floatier physics, but what it really does is greatly reduce the number of low percent kills. In melee, almost all kills came from edgeguarding. The faster falling and worse recoveries made it more realistic to gimp people, and usually the easiest way to get a kill was to simply get a foe offstage and edgeguard them to death, of which a lot ended up being death by edgehog. In brawl+, it's more about building damage up via combos (and camping), and edgeguarding really just becomes sort of like an extended combo. Some characters gimp better than others, and some characters get gimped pretty badly, but in general, you're going to see characters coming back... and coming back... and coming back... until you finally kill them outright. An edgeguarding system like this gives more opportunities to mess up, but with a lower cost for doing so (in melee, a botched edgeguard would usually result in you dying). When I play brawl+, it feels like the main point of edgeguarding is to simply lower the necessary threshold to kill the foe at by hitting them when they're closer to the blastzone, rather than to keep them off the ledge.

Annddd... this is partially why the hitstun change doesn't really work well because we didn't tweak ANY gravity. The gravity we have now may have worked for .4865 hitstun but, with lower hitstun, it's obvious people are going to be dying later... and later... and later... unless there's a physics change.

Complete overhaul plz. No moar floaties, mayhaps? :o (You may all now get ready to slap me for suggesting that).

Oh btw, why is FFDT in this set? It's major bugginess and helps ADs a **** ton. "Wut bugs?" Uhh... try FF'ing as Sonic RIGHT as you Up B, you should fall the opposite direction (back onto the spring) as though he never took off. I saw it happen on 5ive's stream and I've experienced it before in the older set we tested FFDT in. Maybe it's just me but, I don't think so. :x

We can't kill floaties... it would ruin the game lol

But I definitely agree with dropping FFDT. It's not necessary, and it's actually a buff to the defensive game, when lowered hitstun already did that. Being glitchy on top of that just makes it a no-brainer to take it out imo.

Went through and cleaned up the Falcon, got some .pac testing to do and gonna have Greg look at it. The biggest change to Falcon is the fact that the ridiculously high hitstun gave him a good long time to set up any and all followups, now he has to read DI a bit better.

The Squirtle fair was a nerf thought up by Gurukid as Squirtle's fair (which is a high priority move) and similar to bair is now different and used for combo finishers and KOs instead of just about everything. U throw to uair was one of the lowest throw combos KOing in the game and Squirtle had no trouble building damage. His sheer priority on fair was the reason why the speed nerf was put into place with a slight KO power buff to compensate. The exact reasoning can be filled in by Gurukid and I can ask him to come give his opinions on it.

Got a few more minor updates that I can put in once I have tested them out. Few minor clean ups including Falcon and Bowser that should assist the characters a good deal.

Landing a grab with squirtle now anytime between mid percents and oh... 130% or so, is now suddenly very unrewarding. It used to be that there was a small window in which you could neither uthrow -> uair or kill with dthrow, which was fine, but now it's pretty ridiculous. If you want to nerf uair's kill ability... nerf uair's kill ability. Don't nerf the uthrow.

Oh, and as far as marth goes... you still haven't explained how it's possible for dsmash to both suck and be too powerful at the same time, or why a reverse upB with a smaller vertical hitbox couldn't have worked. The upB was fine except for the vertical range being too big. So you decided to outright remove it and make it a worse version of the vbrawl upB? Additionally, the fsmash tip increase was very minimal, and didn't actually make it any easier to land. IIrc, the change was a 0.3 size increase, with a 0.3 shift inward, meaning it had the same horizontal range with slightly increased vertical range, which made hitting foes above you make slightly more sense (as the hitbox did not match the animation). The fsmash being reverted isn't exactly a huge loss, though, because it wasn't that big of a buff to begin with. The one single nerf that hit marth the hardest was definitely the upB, which did not need to be completely changed like it was.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Things should be more powerful imo. It is true that brawl + matches take way too long. Maybe make stuff hit harder? Or u could tweak the physics to make them less floaty. idk.

 

[The Cape]

Less floaty physics = harder to KO off the top, but easier to gimp.

So its a fair enough trade off.

 

[proteininja]

I feel another reason matches take so long is that ledge camping is incredibly hard to punish in B+. With lagless ledges you can mix up the speed at which you are dropping and the insane grab range allows you to safely grab before any on stage defense can hit. If the person on stage decides to pursue offstage, then the camper can just ledge hop an aerial and own them.

Basically, you can just ledge camp until

A) your opponent tries to pursue which you then punish

B) they get bored and allow you to come on stage.

I dropped off of the ledge like 20 times in a row today until they just stepped back and let me on. Shouldn't there be something in place to prevent this like a limit on regrabs?

 

[leafgreen386]

...way to ignore my post cape lol

As for higher grav making it harder to KO off the top... that can be remedied.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

Back then, there was an idea of making ledges only grab-able around 7 times before requiring one to land on the ground to reset it (like how Tethering or Ike's Aether is limited to the amount of times it can grab the ledge). Is that still impossible to do?

 

[grim mouser]

Hm, how did Melee remedy ledge camping? I remember multiple re-grabs being a common mindgame/tactic to return to the stage, but it was never stupidly out of hand.

 

[The Cape]

Leaf: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yv58I0GBCVM

The move was already strong enough and didnt need the buff at all.

Hm, how did Melee remedy ledge camping? I remember multiple re-grabs being a common mindgame/tactic to return to the stage, but it was never stupidly out of hand.

WD and FF to grab the ledge.

 

[leafgreen386]

Cape: Here's an idea. Go try and replicate what happened in that video, and tell me how you did it. That was a glitch or otherwise extreme circumstance there and you know it, since the move normally doesn't kill until 90% or so, and that's after the buff.

And you still ignored what I said about squirtle... and marth's upB... and marth's fsmash...

 

[Dark Sonic]

WD and FF to grab the ledge.

That or you just let the opponent onto the stage and smack them back off . Few characters had safe getup options from the ledge (Fox and Falco break the rules again)

@Cape...put Marth's f-smash back in. It doesn't match the animation and just makes the move look sloppy. Nobody likes to see a sword slashing through the opponent with them going nowhere (it's really just as annoying as seeing Snake's uptilt going through everything).

 

[Shadic]

speaking of crazy changes, can't Link do jab 1 -> 2, dthrow, rinse repeat? It's a pseudo-CG that's definitely a string, but I'm sure not all the characters that it works against have anything to break out of it.

Considering Link already got a UpB power and linking buff, the ability to even jab cancel consistently into more rewarding moves makes me wonder if we've been underestimating Link for too long; somewhat the same with Ganondorf (or rather his jab in everyone's favorite CCless game).

It doesn't seem to work on anybody other than a Fastfaller past 40% or so, even without DI.

And I don't see how you could want to nerf Link, with people at the same time complaining about Squirtle nerfs. Was Link even represented at BTL2?

 

[GHNeko]

Leaf: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yv58I0GBCVM

1. Light/Floaty Character
2. Ceiling isnt that high.
3. Extremely Terribad DI.
4. Toon Link Started to charge an Fsmash, and IIRC, you recieve more KB when hit when charging a smash.

having all these conditions are pretty ****ing uncommon and a move's potential should not be based of that.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Less floaty physics = harder to KO off the top, but easier to gimp.

So its a fair enough trade off.

But that means TL would have even MORe trouble killing. Hurray. >_<. -1.

 

[Shadic]

So we raise the angles for a lot of attacks, and increase the KB to compensate for that as well!

Edit: I just found an interesting graphical glitch, I believe.

When Link faces left and does a Utilt, he doesn't have the graphical blur following the sword. When he faces right and does the same move, it works properly. The same for the last hit of the USmash. Tried in VBrawl, same thing.

Also, it's the same for his Ftilt, but backwards. Facing right is borked, and left works.

wtf, it's working now.

 

[RPGsFTW]

All these complaints means that I get a new Beta for tomorrows tournament?! *I wish*

And is it just me, or are a bunch of aerials supposed to be ended early to cancel into killing attacks? I can first hit Nair with Falcon -> Dsmash, Bowser Nair -> Fsmash, and Wario Dair -> Fsmash. I just land before the aerial finishes, and the stun from the aerial allows the smash to hit. Is this wrong with more DI, or is it just programmed kinda dumb?

 

[Sterowent]

i assumed that animation for link's master sword was intentional, giving a sense of which way the sword was being slashed and how the lighting would be effected.

also, any problems with vertical killing brought on by different physics can be remedied without an issue. no need to reject them because of KO potential that's fixable.

 

[Shadic]

My Link-bias is showing, but here goes:
Can we get a size increase on the Dair? If you land in the area between the spinning blocks on Yoshi's Island (Melee), you can seriously land on them them with a Dair without actually hitting them with a hitbox. Not to mention the various Utilts that break through the move, it's kind of ridiculous.

 

[GHNeko]

Isnt that one of his safest killing moves...point blank? <_>

Can it have a weakness. lmao.