Brawl+ Beta Build (GSH1) Discussion

[MXXD123]

Sonic Fair and Pit Uair and Nair already currently autocancel.

Fixing their physics to allow them more up and down movement improves combo potential for Sonic and pressuring (and upB) for Pit. I just wanted to make sure that we preserved those auto cancels with the changed physics is all.

Oh, sonic reaching his apex quicker would make Uair combos more broken for me, the second hit already kills at 80% out of spring jump

 

[JCaesar]

The point of the physics changes is to make gameplay faster overall, and, in combination with the lower hitstun, to maintain the majority of the combo game from 5.0 while at the same time making them more challenging to pull off and require greater precision.

I think just about every character other than some of the fastfallers could use more ugrav.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

The Squirtle fair was a nerf thought up by Gurukid as Squirtle's fair (which is a high priority move) and similar to bair is now different and used for combo finishers and KOs instead of just about everything. U throw to uair was one of the lowest throw combos KOing in the game and Squirtle had no trouble building damage. His sheer priority on fair was the reason why the speed nerf was put into place with a slight KO power buff to compensate. The exact reasoning can be filled in by Gurukid and I can ask him to come give his opinions on it.
.

I would actually like to hear his reasoning. I don't mind the uThrow nerf actually, because even though it isn't as good, its still in character. I think its pretty obvious based on response here that the new squirtle Fair is being pretty poorly received. Once again I don't necessarily want it to be reverted back to how it was, but I would prefer it be reworked to something faster and more in character. I've seen a lot of people simply ignore the new Fair, and I think that stands to reason that we haven't been given more options, we have been given less options. Personally, I would like to see it maybe become a combo opener, or a move with less damage/knockback. Actually, I don't really are what it ends up being as long as its not what it is now. It has pretty much effectivley taken him off my roster of played characters.

As for the marth discussion, I actually don't mind marth as he stands now. I think his F-smash and a couple other things could stand a tiny buff buuut I've been doing decent.

I also don't mind the high death percentages either. Long games are fun.

 

[MXXD123]

I would actually like to hear his reasoning. I don't mind the uThrow nerf actually, because even though it isn't as good, its still in character. I think its pretty obvious based on response here that the new squirtle Fair is being pretty poorly received. Once again I don't necessarily want it to be reverted back to how it was, but I would prefer it be reworked to something faster and more in character. I've seen a lot of people simply ignore the new Fair, and I think that stands to reason that we haven't been given more options, we have been given less options. Personally, I would like to see it maybe become a combo opener, or a move with less damage/knockback. Actually, I don't really are what it ends up being as long as its not what it is now. It has pretty much effectivley taken him off my roster of played characters.

As for the marth discussion, I actually don't mind marth as he stands now. I think his F-smash and a couple other things could stand a tiny buff buuut I've been doing decent.

I also don't mind the high death percentages either. Long games are fun.

Agreed, Startup lag is really a killer. B+ Samus' missles have become practically useless compared to Melee Samus' missles I think squirtle should have an ending lag nerf but not a startup lag nerf.

 

[Shadic]

It has pretty much effectivley taken him off my roster of played characters.

I think the fact that one move basically means so much to a character that's Top-tier shows that it was a ridiculously powerful move.

 

[Alphatron]

So long as floaties aren't destroyed by the gravity change, its worth testing.

One thing though. META ******* KNIGHT. He'd love easier gimps.

That, and characters who currently suck at killing but rack up damage quickly need to still suck at killing normally. I'd honestly prefer the kill move KBG buff/BKG nerf, but test whatever works, I suppose.

 

[Sulfur]

I think the fact that one move basically means so much to a character that's Top-tier shows that it was a ridiculously powerful move.

Which is why it was nerfed. I think we all agree it needs to be nerfed. But currently, squirtle is really predictable and a lot slower than how he should be. The fair change simply dashes any playstyle that anyone had before. It's kind of like making marth's fair 3x slower. It doesn't work.

 

[The Cape]

It is still a solid combo finisher and still has good range and priority. The issue with the move is that it was hands down a character by itself.

In the finals of BtL2 when I was playing against Mexi Madness's Squirtle his fair stuffed every move I threw at him (including Ness's broke fair). Guru made this suggestion to me for Squirtle's fair and while it may not have turned out to be the best change the move still needs fixed badly.

Any suggestions for Squirtle fair?

 

[Sulfur]

It is still a solid combo finisher and still has good range and priority. The issue with the move is that it was hands down a character by itself.

In the finals of BtL2 when I was playing against Mexi Madness's Squirtle his fair stuffed every move I threw at him (including Ness's broke fair). Guru made this suggestion to me for Squirtle's fair and while it may not have turned out to be the best change the move still needs fixed badly.

Any suggestions for Squirtle fair?

I think a priority nerf is necessary. Maybe like 5-7 frames slower?
Or, more BKB and less KBG?

 

[Dark Sonic]

The F smash change is definetly a buff as its a range increase. Goes a long way in that sense.

Well yeah it's a buff...and I'm perfectly fine with it (buffing Marth is obviously blasphamy right?)

It makes the move fit it's animation, which is fairly important on a character who's entire game revolves around precise spacing. Nothing is more aggrivating then setting up that perfect tipper only to see your sword go straight through them.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Perhaps a slight hitbox reduction could be looked into if Squirtle players don't want to gain 8+ frames of startup/endlag on fair but still want to keep it from walling everything. Maybe even a small bit of both, tweaking it if it's too little or too much.

I'll let the Squirtle players work that out though .

 

[The Cape]

The best idea for his fair might be to make it winddown slower in the air so that he cannot do as many in the air and its less safe off the stage with slightly higher than RC1 ALR (but lower than current). Then make the hitbox slightly smaller so that it does not stuff out as many approaches as it does. This might be a better fix to the more so its precision is more neccesary without being silly.

Well yeah it's a buff...and I'm perfectly fine with it (buffing Marth is obviously blasphamy right?)

It makes the move fit it's animation, which is fairly important on a character who's entire game revolves around precise spacing. Nothing is more aggrivating then setting up that perfect tipper only to see your sword go straight through them.

The F smash buff is the only one of the buffs I took out that would even seem worthwhile to put back in so I will do that. No big deal on that one.

Edit: Already fixed, just need to try out some Squirtle fair changes and we should be able to release the next update with some minor changes.

 

[GHNeko]

Leaf said it wasn't any easier to hit with. I disagree. That's all. If you wanna make the tip bigger and match the animation better, that's fine, but don't pretend it's not a buff, because it is.

So if it wasnt any easier to hit with, why bring up your increased tipper amount per match up? Couldn't it just of been on you and not the change?

lol placebo.

Yea. It's a buff. Making any move work better or more properly is a buff. That's common sense that needs to go unmentioned. But it's a buff that barely makes a difference in an actual match. Besides, IIRC, Magus said it was a shift. not an increase.

 

[The Cape]

Actually I just looked at the data and the tipper size was just plain increased. It wasnt move or anything it was just plain bigger. THATS why its easier to hit, because the size is just bigger. It has nothing to do with a placebo effect when the hitbox is just straight up bigger.

 

[WheelOfFish]

Did Samus's fastfall get improved? Downloading it right now and I'll test but it's really been bugging me how characters like Jigglypuff have a faster fastfall than Samus...

This build sounds awesome though.

 

[Magus420]

The adjacent non-tip hitbox was also shifted 0.3 outwards. The tip 'thickness' was still the same.

 

[The Cape]

Well it still makes the tip bigger on all other sides. Why was the tip hitbox not just moved outwards and the rest of the hitboxes moved to coincide with that?

 

[Magus420]

The entire change itself didn't do anything at all really and shouldn't have been there to begin with. The difference between those 2 methods would be even less existent. You're fooling yourself if you think something on that tiny of a scale would have any real impact on actual gameplay. Could have just as easily been made 0.3 smaller yet listed as being 'increased' and you would never know the difference.

 

[MK26]

i bet if you guys told us that you had buffed mk's dsmash back to vbrawl level, we would have had at least 10 complaints by now

in any case, thanks to pw i know how to get the SSE jungle to load off a custom slot (aka without removing temple). buuuuut, imma try to focus on school for the last few hours of the weekend

 

[Dantarion]

Also, cape, ledgetech is NOT causing crashes in Project M, so....put that in plzzzz.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

The best idea for his fair might be to make it winddown slower in the air so that he cannot do as many in the air and its less safe off the stage with slightly higher than RC1 ALR (but lower than current). Then make the hitbox slightly smaller so that it does not stuff out as many approaches as it does. This might be a better fix to the more so its precision is more necessary without being silly.

I'd be up for this. Wind down time, smaller hit box. Sounds like it could be a nice fix that is on character. More like Sheik's F-air, though longer. I can dig it.

My other idea was to make it sex-kicky. Quick to use, Long lasting (and thus long windown) but very weak and with a medium sized ALR. The animation sort of lends itself to sex-kickery, and considering that squirtle's nair is rarely used, I say it would be a good addition.

I'd be up for either fix.

 

[leafgreen386]

Cape, can you please give me an answer for marth's upB already? The move did not need to be changed that much from where it was in 5.0. And that video proves absolutely nothing for marth's dsmash. If you actually tested the move you'd know that.

As for the rest of you, if you were planning on skipping over this post due to tl;dr, don't. Skip to the end if you must. The last reply here is important for everyone to read.

1. Light/Floaty Character
2. Ceiling isnt that high.
3. Extremely Terribad DI.
4. Toon Link Started to charge an Fsmash, and IIRC, you recieve more KB when hit when charging a smash.

having all these conditions are pretty ****ing uncommon and a move's potential should not be based of that.

Thank you. The last one is the most important one. The move does not KO until 90% or so normally, making this more of a freak occurrence than the standard.

This. 1.2x kb, iirc

Actually, being hit when charging a smash attack is 1.4x knockback. It's very substantial.

The F smash change is definetly a buff as its a range increase. Goes a long way in that sense.

As for the problems killing its mostly due to the speed of the game. Better physics to get people off the ground quicker and allow them to peak jumps faster while still acting about the same otherwise would go a long way. This would make the recovery game tighter, leading to more edgeguards and earlier KOs and it would also allow the combos to bring more pressure on the opponents and therefore setup to KO percents quicker and easier.

I'm not going to argue that the fsmash tip increase isn't a buff. I never said it wasn't. Saying that "it's a buff" does absolutely nothing for this conversation.

Making chars peak faster will only give a small marginal increase to game speed. It will make the onstage game feel faster and more fluid, but the actual pace of the match will be very similar to how it is now. Ugrav isn't going to make edgeguarding that much more common, and it's really dgrav that you're going to need to mess with for that if you want matches to end sooner due to characters dying earlier.

I can't assume anything with you WBRoomers, you guys are weird.

Uh... thanks?

Interesting. Tbh, it might be op if tethers could grab out of air at full tether range instead of close range only. I'm not against said change, I'll certainly try it out. After all, there's no way to tell until it gets tested. However, I'd say it could be borderline op.

Imagine if we had a code that made it possible to slide off ledges and platforms? That'd be hilarious... Think of how huge of a change being able to slide off the ledge would be. It actually might be kind of cool. Imagine Snake snak dashing and sliding of the edge. Haha. Hmm what else would it effect? I think it could be pretty cool, but who knows.

There must be a way to make it so you can slide off ledges and platforms with momentum. I mean... Falcon, and ganondorf's side+bs slide right off. Maybe we can take apart the coding of their moves and see why? Can Ike side B off the edge? It might be kind of cool...

Anyway, just a random idea...

I wouldn't want to be able to slide off edges with dash attacks, actually. Dash attacking the ledge is a viable edgeguarding strategy for some characters, due to the lingering hitbox hitting below the ledge.

Didn't we already do that once, and it was still one of the lowest % guaranteed grab-kill combos in the game?

Maybe, but then wouldn't that just mean that we didn't reduce the uair's growth enough?

I do agree the up-B was overnerfed. The only problem with it was how strong the hitboxes at the end of the move were.

Hm... I never thought they were that bad, actually. Sure, if you got hit by the reverse tip (as in, naturally reversed) while marth was recovering, you were gonna be in a bad position afterward, but (imo) you deserved it for screwing up your edgeguard and putting yourself in that position to begin with.

Maybe it's just me but I found the larger fsmash tip much easier to land. I went from landing 1 or 2 fsmash tips per game to landing 5 or 6.

Well, I don't see how you would've seen it as "much" easier to land, but ok.

Someone came up with the idea of having ledge invincibility time decrease with successive grabs, but reset whenever you are hit or touch ground. I think this would be a better solution to planking than some arbitrary limit on ledgegrabs.

Yep. The problem becomes figuring out how extreme to make it. I think a system that gives you 2 or 3 free ledgegrabs, only decreasing the invinc after that would be best. Other people want a more aggressive system that begins to punish you for successive ledgegrabs beginning with the second one. I think that would begin interfering with normal ledge strats too soon and too pervasively, so I'd rather there be some leeway before it starts punishing players for grabbing the ledge.

I would like to see all characters killing better in general. We could just take all the kill moves in the game, decrease the BKB, and increase the KBG, so they work about the same at low %s but kill better.

Eh... something like that. We need to figure out what we're doing with everything else, first, though, before we go into doing that.

I feel that making gravity changes is goin to be rather difficult. We have to ensure that we don't break anything accidentally. For example, I feel that Falco's gravity is perfect. He's swift, his SHSL mechanics are perfect. If were going to increase grav I wouldn't want Falco to suddenly feel crappy. Characters reaching the apex of their jump faster will probably have less negatives, as it's only speeding up their jump. Basically, I'm just needlessly concerned that we'll go overboard and ruin characters that already feel great (like Falco).

You worry too much imo. If we're going to be making new physics for characters, don't you think we'd maybe... oh... I dunno... let people test them? We're not gonna let any characters get ruined. I assure you.

---

THIS IS THE PART I WANT EVERYONE TO READ:

I think the fact that one move basically means so much to a character that's Top-tier shows that it was a ridiculously powerful move.

If you haven't noticed, every character has one or two (maybe three) moves that they greatly rely on. How would you like it if link's jab was reduced to worthless? Bowser's upB? Ganon's fair or jab? Marth's fair? Fox's dair?

Fox's dair is a great example here, actually. It's been nerfed time and time again, but it's still a useful move. It builds less damage and it's harder to combo off of, but fox can still use the move in much the same way as he always has; it's just less dominating. The squirtle fair nerf causes it to feel "foreign" in his playstyle, meaning the nerf was far overdone. A move should not go from "staple" to "foreign." When marth's fair was redone, it was given huge damage nerfs and lost the ability to kill, but in exchange it could be used as a combo move. The move is still a staple move in marth's gameplay, but he can't just use a wall of fair to win matches anymore.

If we're nerfing squirtle's fair, it should still meld well in his game, and it should still be a staple move. Every character has staple moves that they abuse to get the job done. This is simply how the game is played. If the staple moves of a character are too good, then yes, they need to be nerfed, but just because a move is a staple move does not mean it is broken.

 

[MK26]

i'd say 2 free ledgegrabs before the invincibility decrease kicks in would be fine

(and i read it all)

 

[Shadic]

just because a move is a staple move does not mean it is broken.

If you think that's what I said, you were mistaken.

The issue with the move is that it was hands down a character by itself.

That's basically what I was meaning, admittedly not worded as well.

Needless aggression FTL.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I love how you completely missed his point, and went straight for the sections of his post that made you look bad....or where he was aggressive.

 

[sffadsad]

Needless aggression FTL.

He wasn't being aggressive. He was just responding to what he thought your post meant. He still makes a good point anyway.

 

[Shadic]

I love how you completely missed his point, and went straight for the sections of his post that made you look bad....or where he was aggressive.

Who says I need to respond to everything I read? I'm allowed to make comments I feel necessary - In this case, response to the part where attention was drawn to me.

To use your logic: I love how you decided to comment on my post instead of reading and taking to heart what leafgreen said.

 

[VietGeek]

leaf's response doesn't even seem to try to interpret anything. it like branched off into the wrong exit but somehow had some vague relevance

he's just saying that a staple move isn't broken, and if it is, then it should be toned down.

There's a difference in nerfing a character within a character (DD Dancing Blade) and destroying a character within a character (apparently this Squirtle nerf).

I guess..."the ends don't justify the means"?

 

[The Cape]

The fair nerf doesnt destroy Squirtle, however I am open to other suggestions. I like the more endlag with a smaller hitbox idea and might test that out once I get home (sometime tomorrow).

Edit: New update released for the beta with a few more character clean ups

 

[MK26]

jeez

just save up all the changes and make another nightly for god's sake...

 

[The Cape]

Its called a nightly but I cant update it daily? :-p

Anyway, just trying to clean up a good deal of the issues to make it a more solid set overall.

 

[Shadic]

leaf's response doesn't even seem to try to interpret anything. it like branched off into the wrong exit but somehow had some vague relevance

he's just saying that a staple move isn't broken, and if it is, then it should be toned down.

Yeah. Which I think everybody understands. The whole point about changing other character's staple moves was a bit odd though, especially because Squirtle doesn't NEED the Fair. Yes, the change was a bit over the top, and should probably get a treatment more like the Kirby Bair. But still.

The fair nerf doesnt destroy Squirtle...

That's pretty much all that needs to be said. Squirtle is far from being ruined without his Fair, from what I've seen.

Also, changelist is broken. Peach changes = What?

 

[VietGeek]

jeez

just save up all the changes and make another nightly for god's sake...

that would require us to do a disservice to our beloved fans all across the world in order to build unnecessary hype like we make profit off this thing or something

well i suppose some of us do, rather indirectly. jcaesar and cape are recent examples. ^_^

Yeah. Which I think everybody understands.

this is smashboards. reconsider =<

 

[MK26]

well say "GSH 1.0.0.0.7" or something, not just "GSH1 update (for the seventh time lololololol)"

EDIT: brawl+ is waaaaay more fun when theres constant changes
it makes my life feel complete

 

[Isatis]

Also, changelist is broken. Peach changes = What?

Currently getting these from RyokoYaksa...whenever he decides to get back to me on it

 

[Alphatron]

Game and Watch having a kill throw makes me sad to be honest.

@MK26: Could you tell me how you got jungle to work?

 

[sffadsad]

That's pretty much all that needs to be said. Squirtle is far from being ruined without his Fair, from what I've seen.

I don't believe that just because a change doesn't break a character doesn't mean that it shouldn't continue to be discussed. Squirtle might not be ruined without his old fair, but that doesn't mean it needed to be nerfed the way it was. Honestly, i admit it was a really good move, but what was done it it was beyond a nerf, it was a complete reworking of the move. Because fair was also such a key part of Squirtle's playstyle it also dramatically changed his pacing and overall weakened him in a way he didn't need to be weakened. I'm all for a nerf from what it was in 5.0, but I would rather see an actual nerf and not a reworking of the move.

I suppose it's a bit like Link's dair. Link's dair is pretty key in helping him get kills. Even if it serves no other purpose it's a really important move right? Since Link was lucky enough to get dair nerfed in a way that made it less ridiculous and yet not completely revamp the move we can say it's fine, but if it was changed so dramatically as to make it lose its original purpose and change it into an out of character move I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate it if someone said "Oh hey it doesn't break Link so lets just drop the subject."
If that's not what you meant by your post then I apologize, I simply understood it as a suggestion to cease discussion about Squirtle's fair.


@Cape: Are the changes online? I'd like to see what Squirtle feels like with your suggested changes.

 

[Shadic]

Dear god, is it "Misinterpret and/or go on a tangent when commenting on things Shadic says" day, or what? That's nothing like what I said, at all. Did you bother reading the rest of what I said, or did you just feel like finding that most convenient bit to quote? Right afterward, I said what I think should be done with the move. Why would I said "We shouldn't talk about it," and then give my opinion on what should be done? That makes no sense.

/rant

this is smashboards. reconsider =<

Already done. D:

 

[Sails]

Dear god, is it "Misinterpret and/or go on a tangent when commenting on things Shadic says" day, or what? That's nothing like what I said, at all. Did you bother reading the rest of what I said, or did you just feel like finding that most convenient bit to quote? Right afterward, I said what I think should be done with the move. Why would I said "We shouldn't talk about it," and then give my opinion on what should be done? That makes no sense.

/rant


Already done. D:

It's the pink name

 

[MK26]

Game and Watch having a kill throw makes me sad to be honest.

@MK26: Could you tell me how you got jungle to work?

http://www.mediafire.com/?mtozr2mt3ah

1. Rename to stcustom#.pac, where # is the same as that of the sse jungle file
2. ???
3. Profit!