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Ban brinstar and rainbow cruise

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
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The back country, GA
Don't blame hyrule, it's your fault you got hit by fox's lasers. See what I did there? I know this isn't really a worthy comparison, but it follows the same logic. It really just comes down to where you draw the line. Some people think rc, bs, and kj64 are a bit over the top for tourney play, some think they are just fine. It's really just a difference of opinion, and some people will never be swayed in the other direction regardless of what the opposition says.

Edit: Niko for president.
 

Stevo

Smash Champion
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150km north of nowhere, Canada
not memorizing when randall makes his trip around YS is a lot less harmful than not knowing when the lava is going to come up. Is this type of knowledge and in-game insight something we want to base results on?

Just throwing it out there.
 

Beat!

Smash Master
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Uppsala, Sweden
The person getting hit isn't random. They are getting hit because they were the worse player or at the very least lost a critical exchange that resulted in their poor positioning when the predictable lava window approached. Getting hit by lava can only be blamed on the player who got hit, not the stage.
Or they're getting hit because their opponent plays puff or peach.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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This is all beside the point

IS THE STAGE ACCEPTABLE FOR COMPETITIVE PLAY? If so, it should be legal. If not, it should be banned. If it is 'sometimes' acceptable, then it is NOT acceptable.

A player's ban shouldn't see their hand forced due to the innate unfairness of the stage. Any stage that is an "obvious" ban most likely shouldn't be legal at all

Stage striking is easy, especially when none of the stages are ********
this post is still highly relevant
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
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Adelaide, South Australia, AUS
Don't blame hyrule, it's your fault you got hit by fox's lasers. See what I did there? I know this isn't really a worthy comparison, but it follows the same logic. It really just comes down to where you draw the line. Some people think rc, bs, and kj64 are a bit over the top for tourney play, some think they are just fine. It's really just a difference of opinion, and some people will never be swayed in the other direction regardless of what the opposition says.

Edit: Niko for president.
I say again, Kongo Jungle is a MUCH more obvious ban than RC and Brinstar.

If any of you disagree, play a Jigglypuff there who camps as soon as it gets the stock lead and abuses the barrel.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
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The back country, GA
I say again, Kongo Jungle is a MUCH more obvious ban than RC and Brinstar.

If any of you disagree, play a Jigglypuff there who camps as soon as it gets the stock lead and abuses the barrel.
Lol good point that **** is messed up. I've never had that happen to me thankfully.
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
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Lol good point that **** is messed up. I've never had that happen to me thankfully.
Seriously, my friend and I played heaps of matches there. Using various top/high tier characters.

Peach and Jigglypuff can get a stock lead and run away using the top platforms, when the opponent starts to get close, they can go down and float/pound camp under the stage and use the barrel as a free trip back up. Rinse and repeat.
 

Druggedfox

Smash Champion
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I'd be more worried about a fox/falco/falcon camping a samus/puff/peach/ness(lol) than the reverse.

With falco's ridiculous full jump, or falcon's ridiculous fulljump + speed I don't see how characters with such an obvious way of moving vertically (take peach's DJ) have any chance at all of catching up.
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
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I'd be more worried about a fox/falco/falcon camping a samus/puff/peach/ness(lol) than the reverse.

With falco's ridiculous full jump, or falcon's ridiculous fulljump + speed I don't see how characters with such an obvious way of moving vertically (take peach's DJ) have any chance at all of catching up.
Well, that's another reason.

But Peach and Puff can camp underneath the stage, hitch a ride back up on a barrel and repeat. It's difficult to stop to say the least.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Next time someone picks that stage I'm definitely gonna try that. Just pick jigglypuff, put some music on and blast around the barrels for 8 minutes.
 

Wobbles

Desert ******
BRoomer
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If you ever play against a Peach and the player takes you to KJ64, pick Jiggs, get a hit or two then time them out by camping the top. Go over, under, just stay wherever the Peach isn't. If they're too antsy or get too close just bop 'em and keep running.

Works pretty damn well.
 

Ghostbone

Smash Master
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I say again, Kongo Jungle is a MUCH more obvious ban than RC and Brinstar.

If any of you disagree, play a Jigglypuff there who camps as soon as it gets the stock lead and abuses the barrel.
People need to play me in melee more often.

I play sooooo gay :awesome:

But yea Jiggs goes sooo high from the barrel, pound stalls for a bit, goes down, pounds into the barrel.
Then repeats, while mixing in some ledge grabs every once in a while.

Someone really has to test if that barrel is random also, I've had matches be decided because the barrel decided to turn just as they fired out, and I've been meteor smashed, tried to meteor cancel but instead I was shot down out of the barrel. (and I couldn't see the barrel until after I was spiked anyway......)

Not to mention the barrel saving stocks when someone was recovering but missed the edge.


Back to the discussion, Brinstar is legit, and if you're complaining about not being able to control when you're off the stage (since the lava is on a pattern) then yoshi's should be banned as well for the same reason right?
 

OkamiBW

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20 miles south of Irvine, SoCal
If you ever play against a Peach and the player takes you to KJ64, pick Jiggs, get a hit or two then time them out by camping the top. Go over, under, just stay wherever the Peach isn't. If they're too antsy or get too close just bop 'em and keep running.

Works pretty damn well.
I made Silly Kyle throw his controller at the wall for losing to my Sheik as Peach on Kongo Jungle. :)

Alright, so here's my input as a TO:
I'm going to try at the next tournament I host in Arizona making the rule I stated earlier in the thread where you have the option to ban 2 counterpicks or 1 neutral with the normal 9 stage list.
I think that what should happen is that since Melee stages can now be modified*, we should work on making new neutrals and counterpicks that can work in tourneys. :)

*Check the Project Melee videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/nifanatic

P.S. I just asked nifanatic if it would be possible to make a Melee hack with the standard 9 stages with some of the banned stages hacked to be neutral; for example, a stage that is like Pokemon Stadium without the morphing.
 

Ghostbone

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Having the option to ban 2 counterpicks or 1 neutral is ********.

Your basically saying that in some matchups one character gets two bans while the other only gets 1.
How is it fair to let one character prevent themselves from being counterpicked as bad as the other?
Not to mention some characters do much better on neutrals than counterpicks.

Also there shouldn't be starters or counterpicks with stage striking anyway.
Starters were originally designed with random in mind, stage striking is designed to find the fairest stage, and the fairest stage is the stage decided through stage striking the entire legal stage list, not a subset that favors certain characters.
And there's only like 9 legal stages so it's easy to strike from them.

Hacked stages shouldn't be used in (the main event of) tourneys as they influence the game outside of what it is naturally.
Textures are fine because they don't actually influence gameplay.
 

OkamiBW

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Say what?

I can understand your first point. I don't understand what you mean when you argue the point about hacked stages vs textures. First of all, textures do influence results because most people don't practice on an inverted colored Yoshi's Story, so seeing an approach vs. a dash dance looks different than what players are used to.

You might as well say that items should be on because they "influence the game outside of what it is naturally". The point of using hacked stages is to have a larger variety of good stages that players can play on. I'll obviously give people a month or two to play on those stages and it would of course be a side tourney. It would be unfair to make stages legal that out of state players don't have a chance to play on. You're silly.
 

Grim Tuesday

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Yeah, but when you're jiggs and you can pick the direction...
This. It's a stupid stage for many reasons.

Say what?

I can understand your first point. I don't understand what you mean when you argue the point about hacked stages vs textures. First of all, textures do influence results because most people don't practice on an inverted colored Yoshi's Story, so seeing an approach vs. a dash dance looks different than what players are used to.

You might as well say that items should be on because they "influence the game outside of what it is naturally". The point of using hacked stages is to have a larger variety of good stages that players can play on. I'll obviously give people a month or two to play on those stages and it would of course be a side tourney. It would be unfair to make stages legal that out of state players don't have a chance to play on. You're silly.
Erm... He was saying they don't DIRECTLY affect gameplay.

And items are not necessarily on "naturally", what makes you say that? Because they are the default? Pfft. The game gives us an option to turn them off, so having them off is just as legit as having them on.

Hacking new stages in, on the other hand, is completely different. If we are playing with edited stages, we won't be playing "Super Smash Bros. Melee" anymore, we'll be playing "Whatever the **** We Want". This doesn't work, as it pretty much says: "We can put anything we want into the game", which will lead to us essentially making a different game.

Which is fine, but we can't suddenly make that the tournament standard. Notice how advanced Brawl hacking is, yet how there is still Brawl tournaments? And how Brawl+/-/etc... tournaments haven't exactly hit off?

The same thing would happen for Melee. We'd have a large group of Melee players, and a negligible group of Melee+ players.
 

Ghostbone

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Yea it's true different textures might put you off, but that's simply solved the same way most brawl tourneys handle it, which is a player has the right to turn off any hacked textures/music.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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The only thing stopping hack tournaments from working on a large scale is accessibility. Anyone can walk to the store and buy a copy of brawl and a wii. To run any hacked version of brawl, the wii itself must be hacked and it requires extra hardware (SD card minimum).

If someone could pass a release of a hack around to players in their region and those players could simply pop the game into their wii and it ran without any hacks or special menus or extra hardware... Then there would be the possibility for a hack tournament that wasn't just a side tournament.



For melee this is even worse because you basically need to own a separate console as well as do work on the computer editing the game then burn it to a DVD and hack the wii and use the SD card. Melee hacks thru the memory card slot solves a lot of these problems but still requires some extra hardware (~$30)

edit- my favorite hack setup was brought to my attention by Tichinde. He showed me how to get a usb converter for the GC controller and then told me to run melee thru dolphin and marvel at the amazing HD game.
 

Mew2King

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no one in their right mind is gonna memorize that stupid *** ****ing pattern of a rarely chosen stupid stage while fully concentrating on the battle at hand

furthermore, if they unfortunately get knocked off during a bad part they might just get ***** from bad luck / unfortunate circumstances

there is way more luck and character-bias involved on a stage like that than than other stages

and if you aren't a spacie on RC you pretty much auto-lose

it's pretty obvious that those stages are dumb, and shouldn't be on

and nothing is wrong with pokemon stadium that should not be a counter plank just hates fox
 

Niko45

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and nothing is wrong with pokemon stadium that should not be a counter plank just hates fox
I think the main reason stadium became a CP was simply because you need an odd number of stages for CPing. It was seen as the "least neutral" of the 6 which is a pretty understandable position imo.
 

TheZhuKeeper

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If you ever play against a Peach and the player takes you to KJ64, pick Jiggs, get a hit or two then time them out by camping the top. Go over, under, just stay wherever the Peach isn't. If they're too antsy or get too close just bop 'em and keep running.

Works pretty damn well.
It's funny because Pink Shinobi beat Mango on that stage by using that same strategy LOL. Guess it works both ways.
 

Bamesy

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...making interesting maneuvers in the Okanagan...
It's funny because Pink Shinobi beat Mango on that stage by using that same strategy LOL. Guess it works both ways.
It's funny cause you did that with Falco against (I think you said Flys?) ICs to test it.

It works every way.





If you suck and need to camp like that to win, then you'll probably just get ***** in the other 2 games you need to win. If not then woooow that's lazy, just **** them if you don't suck.

RC is ******** but fun. Shouldn't be allowed lol

Brinstar is aight, at least it has interesting features but doesn't promote TOO much gayness.
 

Armada

Smash Lord
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Mar 28, 2010
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1,366
I like this idea.
HAHA.
I would love "European standard ruleset" but i will not going so far to try to have rules in our way :p

But at least you should think about it Plank.
Timeouts is easy at KJ64 and happens at least 50% of the matches (at least in Sweden when we had that stage).

And like m2k said RC is almost a guarantee lost if you not are playing a spacie.
 

Doser

Smash Ace
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Nov 23, 2010
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Lincoln Nebraska
HAHA.
I would love "European standard ruleset" but i will not going so far to try to have rules in our way :p

But at least you should think about it Plank.
Timeouts is easy at KJ64 and happens at least 50% of the matches (at least in Sweden when we had that stage).

And like m2k said RC is almost a guarantee lost if you not are playing a spacie.
Yea I feel like KJ64 is just a stall central and doesn't really add any depth to the game.

Btw how did you guys in sweden decide to ban stages?
 

Quic

Smash Journeyman
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Feb 20, 2008
Messages
401
You guys do realise Armada is in no position to make such an ultimatum right?
Right?
 
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