Ban brinstar and rainbow cruise

[BigD!!!]

Even if that was the case, why is it a good thing to have a legal stage that obviously disadvantages certain styles of play?

this is the case with like every stage

fd disadvantages platform camping, yoshis disadvantages running away, and if you get slightly more abstract you can apply this to any stage

 

[_lemons]

Even if that was the case, why is it a good thing to have a legal stage that obviously disadvantages certain styles of play?

inb4 "FD disadvantages styles that rely on platform camping" and probably something about Randall

edit: ninja'd/monster fail

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

this is the case with like every stage

fd disadvantages platform camping, yoshis disadvantages running away, and if you get slightly more abstract you can apply this to any stage

which is why i consider FD the least neutral of the main 6. And yoshis gives adequate ability to run away. It doesn't specifically hinder a specific strategy, its just small. Thats different from stages changing and moving which leaves no chance to resist the stage disadvantages.

 

[Mew2King]

FD is the best stage in the game

running away on Yoshis story? That is only possible on very large stages, or Rainbow/Corneria.

 

[Dark Hart]

FD is the best stage in the game

I don't think anyone would have ever guessed that this is what M2K thinks

 

[OkamiBW]

I'd really like you to post your data on randall and the lava to see if it matches mine, I haven't really rechecked my timings a ton of times so it would be great to get it down pat.

Randall is in no way random in any sense of the word. He always comes out on XX:55, XX:35, and XX:15 on the bottom right and then goes back in 5 seconds later. He always comes out on the left top side at XX:45, XX:25, and XX:05 and then goes back in 5 seconds later. If you want to get even more detailed, he is at the bottom right corner at :53, :33, and :13 and at the top right corner 1 second later from those. On the top left corner, it is :43, :23, and :03 and then 1 second later for the bottom left.

The only thing that seems to be 'really' random in this game is the pattern for when Luigi's down B starts charged at the beginning of a match (so long as Luigi is in a slot to the right of the opponent). For example, on Final Destination, it starts charged when fighting against Peach, Yoshi, DK, Ganon, Falco, Fox, Ness, Sheik (but not Zelda), Young Link, Mewtwo, Game and Watch, and Marth. Not the other characters though on that stage. And it changes depending on stage too (starts charged when fighting Captain Falcon on Yoshi's Story, but not FoD). Weird, isn't it?

Anyways, at some point I'll run 5-10 tests on the lava and record the times of each height on an 8:00 minute timer.

 

[Deleted member]

Even if that was the case, why is it a good thing to have a legal stage that obviously disadvantages certain styles of play?

to give yourself a relative small advantage. thus, a CP.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

to give yourself a relative small advantage. thus, a CP.

The whole concept of counter-picking is ridiculous, we should just strike for every match.

And I'd appreciate if people took into account what I said here:

The difference is clear to see; Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise and Kongo Jungle are all on a different scale to our other legal stages. To get those categories, I draw the line between when a stage becomes so good for a character that the majority of players consider it the only counter-pick they need, and when a stage is considered by the majority of players to be useful in multiple match-ups.

It just comes down to whether you think that is enough of a difference to ban the stages, or not.

I've laid down my argument, and everyone else has laid down theres. Honestly, this thread should just be closed. The pro-ban side can run tournaments there way, the anti-ban will run tournaments there way. Eventually one side is going to take over due to the influence of the community in their own local areas, and a standard will be set. Simple as that.

 

[Dark Hart]

The whole concept of counter-picking is ridiculous, we should just strike for every match.

wait... what?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

wait... what?

Speaking from a competitive point of view, giving someone an advantage for losing is just silly.

Hell, giving someone an advantage from ANYTHING is silly, even winning. It should be equally biased to both players the whole way through.

 

[Dark Hart]

okay then, let's play one match sets if that's the case...

>_> <_<

have fun convincing the rest of the community to be swayed your way

 

[Grim Tuesday]

okay then, let's play one match sets if that's the case...

>_> <_<

have fun convincing the rest of the community to be swayed your way

Why do we have to play one match sets? We can just strike stages/do double-blind character pick for every match in the set.

I have no intention of convincing the community. because despite my way being objectively better, they are too stubborn and ignorant to take it on board.

 

[Dark Hart]

stage striking for every match of the set?

I guess I'm just to stubborn and ignorant to see your way

 

[Grim Tuesday]

stage striking for every match of the set?

I guess I'm just to stubborn and ignorant to see your way

I can't see any other reason not to remove counter-picking.

It's a remnant of when the first match of the set was all the starters put on random. Hence the stubbornness of not wanting to change.

And the majority of the community probably doesn't even realise that it is competitively bad. Hence the ignorance.

It is comparable to choosing between $5 and $10. Why on Earth would you choose the $5?

 

[Dark Hart]

I still don't get it...

 

[Youngling]

The whole concept of counter-picking is ridiculous, we should just strike for every match.

And I'd appreciate if people took into account what I said here:

100% agree

 

[Ghostbone]

Unfortunately stage striking every game removes a lot of stage depth :/
(most likely playing on the same stage the whole time)

Also people are exaggerating the advantages gained from Brinstar or Rainbow Cruise.
You really don't have to only be Jiggs or Peach to win on Brinstar, or Fox to win on Rainbow Cruise.

Some characters are disadvantaged, but certain characters are disadvantaged on every stage.

I certainly don't see every match on RC being fox dittos, or matches on Brinstar only involving Jiggs or Peach.

Oh and Grim, saying that only the top 7 characters matter is dumb.
Some characters below them still hold advantageous/even matchups, and thus are important.
eg.
Ice Climbers against Sheik.
Ganon against Marth.
And for the extreme, Young Link against Peach.

So saying FD is fine even though Ice Climbers should always counterpick it, because they don't matter doesn't make sense.
Especially when most of their matchups are skewed a lot in their favor on it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Unfortunately stage striking every game removes a lot of stage depth :/
(most likely playing on the same stage the whole time)

Also people are exaggerating the advantages gained from Brinstar or Rainbow Cruise.
You really don't have to only be Jiggs or Peach to win on Brinstar, or Fox to win on Rainbow Cruise.

Some characters are disadvantaged, but certain characters are disadvantaged on every stage.

I certainly don't see every match on RC being fox dittos, or matches on Brinstar only involving Jiggs or Peach.

Oh and Grim, saying that only the top 7 characters matter is dumb.
Some characters below them still hold advantageous/even matchups, and thus are important.
eg.
Ice Climbers against Sheik.
Ganon against Marth.
And for the extreme, Young Link against Peach.

So saying FD is fine even though Ice Climbers should always counterpick it, because they don't matter doesn't make sense.
Especially when most of their matchups are skewed a lot in their favor on it.

Stage Striking doesn't remove depth with the method you made up

I agree that you don't have to be Jiggs to win on Brinstar, or Fox to win on Poke Floats. I also don't think you have to be Fox to win on Corneria either, or Poke Floats, etc...

And only the top 7 characters matter. It's not dumb.

They have the following flaws that don't apply to anyone above them:
• They aren't popular.
• The get hard-countered by the people above them.

ICs - Peach
Ganon - Fox
Samus - nfi
Doc - Everyone

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Giving people multiple stages and characters to choose opens up CPing.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't understand what you mean.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Make anything different, the option of CPing will be there since anything not equal will have one be objectively better or worse.

One character is better against a character while a another isn't as good or is bad against them. Some stages are good for some characters while others are bad for them.

People generally like CPing and what it brings.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Make anything different, the option of CPing will be there since anything not equal will have one be objectively better or worse.

One character is better against a character while a another isn't as good or is bad against them. Some stages are good for some characters while others are bad for them.

People generally like CPing and what it brings.

Erm... Assume that we always chose our characters by double-blind pick and we always chose our stages by striking. There would be NO counter-picking.

Unless I am mis-understanding what you are saying?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Erm... Assume that we always chose our characters by double-blind pick and we always chose our stages by striking. There would be NO counter-picking.

Unless I am mis-understanding what you are saying?

Which makes it counter picking, but random instead of chosen.

This also assume you don't know your opponents, Gee it's Armada/Hungrybox/Dr. Peepee/Silent Specter/etc., wonder who they are gonna play?

This also assumes people don't like the CP system and think Win-lose-win is the only possibly, which if Lose-Win-Win or Win-Win didn't you would have a point.

Both of those still happen so the system isn't broken in that respect, now certain stages legal or characters is another story.

 

[Ghostbone]

Grim
You can still 'counterpick' in a sense.
You just have to predict what character your opponent will use.
Though they can then outsmart you and counterpick your counterpick.
Mind games.

And characters other than the top 7 do matter when taking counterpicking into account.
Plus people are human, and thus can be inexperienced against a character, allowing a player to beat them in what is normally a disadvantaged matchup.

Plus with somebody like Ice Climbers, if the opponent isn't experienced in using Peach, then them trying to counterpick with Peach isn't guaranteed to work. (it most likely won't)
So they're still viable most of the time.

That's why they can still be important.

Spoiler

They're not negligible tier

Also why the top 7? What makes Falcon and Peach viable but not Ganon, Ice Climbers, Samus or perhaps Doc?


Oh yea my striking method is awesome

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Which makes it counter picking, but random instead of chosen.

This also assume you don't know your opponents, Gee it's Armada/Hungrybox/Dr. Peepee/Silent Specter/etc., wonder who they are gonna play?

This also assumes people don't like the CP system and think Win-lose-win is the only possibly, which if Lose-Win-Win or Win-Win didn't you would have a point.

Both of those still happen so the system isn't broken in that respect, now certain stages legal or characters is another story.

I didn't say the system was broken, I said it was stupid.

And I thought it was obvious I was talking about chosen counter-picking, I guess not. Sorry.

And I don't see why it needs to be "broken" for a better alternative to be suggested.

Why should we place extra weight on winning Game 1? It will lead to less consistent results in the long run.

Grim
You can still 'counterpick' in a sense.
You just have to predict what character your opponent will use.
Though they can then outsmart you and counterpick your counterpick.
Mind games.

But this counter-picking is not biased towards either player. Both have an equal opportunity to counter the other at all times.

And characters other than the top 7 do matter when taking counterpicking into account.
Plus people are human, and thus can be inexperienced against a character, allowing a player to beat them in what is normally a disadvantaged matchup.

Plus with somebody like Ice Climbers, if the opponent isn't experienced in using Peach, then them trying to counterpick with Peach isn't guaranteed to work. (it most likely won't)
So they're still viable most of the time.

That's why they can still be important.

Spoiler

They're not negligible tier

Also why the top 7? What makes Falcon and Peach viable but not Ganon, Ice Climbers, Samus or perhaps Doc?

Oh yea my striking method is awesome

Just looking at the results for ROM3 shows that players using mid tier and below characters don't often impact the results that matter.

I draw the line between the top 7 mostly because of popularity. You are going to see A LOT more Falcons and Peaches than you would Ice Climbers.

 

[Mew2King]

Grim
You can still 'counterpick' in a sense.
You just have to predict what character your opponent will use.
Though they can then outsmart you and counterpick your counterpick.
Mind games.

And characters other than the top 7 do matter when taking counterpicking into account.
Plus people are human, and thus can be inexperienced against a character, allowing a player to beat them in what is normally a disadvantaged matchup.

Plus with somebody like Ice Climbers, if the opponent isn't experienced in using Peach, then them trying to counterpick with Peach isn't guaranteed to work. (it most likely won't)
So they're still viable most of the time.

That's why they can still be important.

Spoiler

They're not negligible tier

Also why the top 7? What makes Falcon and Peach viable but not Ganon, Ice Climbers, Samus or perhaps Doc?


Oh yea my striking method is awesome

ganon sucks *** compared to falcon and peach
ICs are great cuz of wobbling
samus is okay... meh. Only hugs makes her truely good
doc is underrated I agree. could be falcon's level maybe, MAYBE. Def not as good as peach but not much worse either

 

[Mooo]

I don't really see how thats relevant to the decision of banning rc or brinstar
one aspect of a banworthy stage is that it benefits only a small Pool of characters or benefits certain characters just too much
if there would be a stage on that pichu or kirby ALWAYS wins, chances are it would be banned as well because it benefits even only the lowtier but just far too much
we should just focus on which character is benefitted and how much and then if These benefits are relevant, not the other way around, which kinda happens right now.

 

[IGiveUp]

if there would be a stage on that pichu or kirby ALWAYS wins, chances are it would be banned

lol at the physics that would be required by that stage.

 

[Divinokage]

Way to revive a dead thread.

 

[-ACE-]

Mooo has a good point lol

 

[Mooo]

i don't even understand that last sentence i trainwrecked 3 months ago
nvm i got it, with a lot of fantasy

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Wow, my views have gone completely 180 since I last posted here, lol.

 

[IGiveUp]

Sorry Kage, it's my first read of this thread and that last post made me lol.

 

[crush]

neutrals

FD
DL
YS
FoD
BF

cps

PS
KJ64

striking is 1221

problem solved

 

[_lemons]

neutrals

FD
DL
YS
FoD
BF

cps

PS
KJ64

striking is 1221

problem solved

fix'd

10fix'ds

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

neutrals:
YS
BF
DL

CP:
PS
FoD
FD

1-1 strike. Problem soooolved

 

[crush]

fix'd

10fix'ds

this isn't europe son

 

[Bigfish]

what's so good about rc that makes it less banworthy than poke floats?

 

[rhan]

You don't glitch and fall through some parts of the stage.

 

[BigWenz]

why the hate on kongo?