Ban brinstar and rainbow cruise

[Masmasher@]

just like this thread

 

[shounenkel]

I agree with this... but it's probably just cause I play Falco and refuse to counterpick people to rainbow / kj64 just to time them out loool. I think the reason why most of the top players don't like too many counterpicks is because they relying on their consistency rather than a gimmick war. Hbox is willing to take away Brinstar for RC, fair trade for him because he's more likely to win on any neutral anyways, and I think that's the way it should be.



I don't think the problem with RC / Brinstar are that they're "random".

The problem with counterpicks is that sets become just a counterpick war. I feel like a stage shouldn't determine the outcome of multiple matchups the way Brinstar / RC do.

THANK YOU so much for making this thread, Hax.

I don't understand why these 2 stages are legal in tournament play. Players need to be fighting each other, not the stage. All stage hazards should be reduced to a minimum. In my eyes, both lava and a moving stage are too significant.

I'm down with Armada, Hax an Axe... really guys do we want melee to come down to a CP war or something like that, RC and BS are unfair... and we all know this so lets don't be silly here, Ep, i somehow lose game 1... i wanna win game 2, GCP (GayCounterPick) BS cuz my my buddy didnt Ban it, boom im Losing... Lave ****es him up randomly, that map is hella random, yeah, i win that match with help of my lave, game 3 GCP, RC... Camp and run like hell yeah he wins Gayed but when it come to it we don't want melee to become this Counter pick WAR!! guys so, RC an BS is Out

 

[metalreflectslime]

Easiest way to get Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise banned is to tell Armada to tell Plank and threaten Plank about not going to *Pound* 5 if they don't use European Stage list.

 

[t3h Icy]

1v1:
Neutral:
Final Destination
Battlefield
Yoshi's Story
Dreamland
Fountain of Dreams

Counterpick:
Pokemon Stadium

2v2:
Neutral:
Final Destination
Battlefield
Yoshi's Story
Dreamland
Pokemon Stadium

In my opinion.

EDIT: Also Europe seems to be ahead in a lot of things: Sheik, Peach, Marth, stage list, etc.

 

[Doser]

Is KJ64 poor for teams as well?

 

[Dark Hart]

No, it should be legal in teams.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I love to see team camping it'd be amazing

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Is KJ64 poor for teams as well?

No, it should be legal in teams.

Every stage that is banned in singles should be banned in teams, because eventually all teams matches will end up as a 1v1 or 2v1.

 

[Dark Hart]

Every stage that is banned in singles should be banned in teams, because eventually all teams matches will end up as a 1v1 or 2v1.

that's a really bad reason imo

 

[Grim Tuesday]

that's a really bad reason imo

I liked the way you didn't elaborate on why it was a bad reason xD

Gives me a higher post count :D

 

[Dark Hart]

Okay, here's and explanation then.

You say that all stages that are banned in singles should be banned doubles for the reason that the game will always inevitably turn into a 2v1 or 1v1.

But you for got that IT'S ****ING TEAMS!!! It's not singles, it's different.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You trolling, or just incredibly stupid?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yeah actual 2v2 play isn't really effected by camping strategies.

Grim, your argument is stupid. Stop trolling. GTFO.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

yeah one person can be a meat sheild as the other approachs. Teams metagame is very different like marth can't really chain thrown fox and rest is near broken and normally it's blanced by the fact they can espawn and up-smash you to detah if you're at a high percent. or wobble if they're ice climbers.

really what are broken things in teams besides the freeze glitch and turning friendly fire on?

 

[Metal Reeper]

Welcome to Trollboard FORUM!

 

[ss118]

I do not believe RC or KJ64 are broken in doubles.... yet.

I haven't seen them abused to the same degree. Brinstar I feel is "dumb" the same way in doubles as it is in Singles.

Actually, can this turn into doubles stage discussion? lol

 

[Grim Tuesday]

God, are you people even listening to me?

No it isn't broken in "doubles" because you can't camp properly with 4 people.

Now let's assume that in this doubles match one person loses all their stocks. Suddenly, it's two against one and camping is a very viable option. If another person loses all their stocks, it could become a singles match were again, KJ64 is broken.

See? If it is banned in Singles, it has to be banned in Doubles because EVERY Doubles match eventually becomes 2v1 or 1v1.

 

[TheLake]

Lol

Every stage except brinstar depths should be banned

RC is just groovy and brinstars like mean

Kickings gonna get some much harder...

 

[Pengie]

Then you might as well make Pokemon Stadium a Counterpick in doubles because it is one in singles.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

yeah I guess when you're so far behide as someone like peach you won't make t back. Really 2 vs 1 is pretty broekn anyways. also something broken that can be used like a little bit. but right there it's like pointless.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Then you might as well make Pokemon Stadium a Counterpick in doubles because it is one in singles.

Pokemon Stadium is only a counter-pick because we needed an odd number of starters to stage strike.

Because Fountain of Dreams is banned in doubles, PS can be used as a starter again. What's wrong with that?

 

[Pengie]

Pokemon Stadium is only a counter-pick because we needed an odd number of starters to stage strike.

Because Fountain of Dreams is banned in doubles, PS can be used as a starter again. What's wrong with that?

I'd like to get the full story from someone in the MBR who was actually involved in the decision, but to my knowledge, Pokemon Stadium wasn't just banned because we needed an odd number of stages, but because it is legitimately disruptive to play during two of the transformations (i.e. Fire and Rock). Add in the fact that Spacies are pretty dumb on that stage and the inherent randomness in the transformations and you have a pretty unbalanced stage that warranted being made a counterpick.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'd like to get the full story from someone in the MBR who was actually involved in the decision, but to my knowledge, Pokemon Stadium wasn't just banned because we needed an odd number of stages, but because it is legitimately disruptive to play during two of the transformations (i.e. Fire and Rock). Add in the fact that Spacies are pretty dumb on that stage and the inherent randomness in the transformations and you have a pretty unbalanced stage that warranted being made a counterpick.

While it is the least balanced of the counter-picks, I still believe that the decision was made mostly based on stage striking. Why else would it be made a starter for doubles other than to replace FoD?

Now, onto why PS is starter worthy:
I don't see why it is bad that Fox is good on PS, considering that Ice Climbers get Final Destination, Jigglypuff gets Dreamland, Marth gets Yoshi's Story, etc...

Watching any match on PS shows that the rock transformation is stalled out far less than the fire transformation. It is hardly "disruptive" considering the small amount of time the stage is on these transformations.

The randomness is also not an issue, because it is made apparent well in advance what the transformation will be by looking at the back screen. This gives both players adequate time to prepare.

 

[Wobbles]

Sorry GrimFandango, whether or not something qualifies as "disruptive" is entirely subjective. If I get enough people to side against you, your argument is completely invalid.

PS being counterpick is the status quo now. Deal with it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Sorry GrimFandango, whether or not something qualifies as "disruptive" is entirely subjective. If I get enough people to side against you, your argument is completely invalid.

PS being counterpick is the status quo now. Deal with it.

My post wasn't a plea for PS to become a starter, I was just explaining why I believe it is only a counter-pick because of the stage striking system.

Also, I didn't say that I was objectively correct about whether PS is disruptive, I was just expressing my opinion.

 

[_lemons]

GrimFandango: Are you suggesting that in a 1v2, the 1 can camp the 2? I was under the impression camping was at it strongest when you have a lead that forces the opponent to approach... Maybe the 1 can bore the 2 into approaching stupidly, but I don't think it's enough to warrant banning a stage over it.

If I misinterpreted you I apologize.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

GrimFandango: Are you suggesting that in a 1v2, the 1 can camp the 2? I was under the impression camping was at it strongest when you have a lead that forces the opponent to approach... Maybe the 1 can bore the 2 into approaching stupidly, but I don't think it's enough to warrant banning a stage over it.

If I misinterpreted you I apologize.

I was saying the 2 can camp the 1...

 

[_lemons]

Oh haha. I think the inherent advantage of the 2 vs 1 is already bad enough, why would they camp? They're (arguably) better anyway, if they've eliminated the 1's teammate...

 

[ss118]

One team needs to be better than the other team to actually bring it to a 2 v 1. Congrats to them if they plan to be ahead and put themselves in a scenario in coordination with the stage that they can actually camp.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Oh haha. I think the inherent advantage of the 2 vs 1 is already bad enough, why would they camp? They're (arguably) better anyway, if they've eliminated the 1's teammate...

I've seen winning teams lose in 2v1. Teammates can be eliminated by just being unlucky/ganged up on/etc...

You're right though, the chances of a 2 player team feeling that camping is actually easier than direct fighting against 1 player are slim. It *COULD* happen, though.

The main issue is if it becomes 1v1.

One team needs to be better than the other team to actually bring it to a 2 v 1. Congrats to them if they plan to be ahead and put themselves in a scenario in coordination with the stage that they can actually camp.

So... Because the team with two people is better than the team with only one (ignoring the fact that LOTS of games between closely skilled teams end in 2v1), they are allowed to camp?

Does that mean that Mango is allowed to run away on Temple when he plays against me because he is better?

 

[BigD!!!]

i posted some **** in here then forgot to come back

yo for real though, i played falco on brinstar in tourney last weekend against a sheik, and the lava came up after i killed the guy so he was invincible so i jumped up off of the right platform, shined, shined again, double jumped, shined, then forward b'd right when he got desperate and jumped out there

obviously not unbeatable, but its a pretty valid way to avoid both them and the lava, at least as valid as sitting on that top platform and rolling around like an idiot

 

[Wobbles]

GrimFandango: I was being sarcastic.

<3

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Sorry, my sarcasm detector is broken.

 

[Doser]

I see your point about the 1 v 1's but I've never seen anything like that happen in teams in terms of camping. So I'm not sure what my stance is, considering there is a possibility but it hasn't happened (from what I've seen) in practice.

 

[Ghostbone]

Well a teams game has the possibility to end up as a 1v1.
Which means if the stage is broken in singles it can be broken in doubles if the game ends up as a 1v1.
And that's a possibility, so it shouldn't be legal in doubles if banned in singles.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

But in 95% of teams games the outcome is decided before the last stock. When discussing 2v2 stages we should look at the majority of the gameplay, while it is 2v2.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

But in 95% of teams games the outcome is decided before the last stock. When discussing 2v2 stages we should look at the majority of the gameplay, while it is 2v2.

Addressed this earlier:

I've seen winning teams lose in 2v1.

You're right though, the chances of a 2 player team feeling that camping is actually easier than direct fighting against 1 player are slim. It *COULD* happen, though.

The main issue is if it becomes 1v1.

So... Because the team with two people is better than the team with only one (ignoring the fact that LOTS of games between closely skilled teams end in 2v1), they are allowed to camp?

Does that mean that Mango is allowed to run away on Temple when he plays against me because he is better?

 

[Pi]

876 posts

someone give me the status of the current argument unless it's still;

anti ban side:
the stages aren't broken/random enough to warrant a ban

pro ban side:
they're gay

 

[Grim Tuesday]

876 posts

someone give me the status of the current argument unless it's still;

anti ban side:
the stages aren't broken/random enough to warrant a ban

pro ban side:
the stages provide an advantage to certain characters to the point of over-centralizing

Fixed that for you to make you sound less condescending and for accuracy.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

All i have to say is, i would be much more worried as the 1 if the 2 were aggressive.