Ban brinstar and rainbow cruise

[Ghostbone]

Nah Grim, the current argument to ban RC is:

We can't be bothered learning the stage (just look at M2K's post)/bawwwwww fox bawwwww

For Brinstar it is:

- insert reasons that would also ban either yoshi's story or Pokemon Stadium-
bawww fox/falco sucks bawwww
bawwww jiggs/peach bawwww

For KJ64 (has been brought up) it is:

Camping is way too strong/barrel stuff
(actually legitimate, barrel helps camping and can kill people randomly)

There's no proof the stages have been shown to favor one character to the point of being over-centralizing.

But the way the melee community has been going stages are already just being banned subjectively, so whatever.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Nah Grim, the current argument to ban RC is:

We can't be bothered learning the stage (just look at M2K's post)/bawwwwww fox bawwwww

For Brinstar it is:

- insert reasons that would also ban either yoshi's story or Pokemon Stadium-
bawww fox/falco sucks bawwww
bawwww jiggs/peach bawwww

Peach and Jiggly already have Dreamland, and Fox already has Pokemon Stadium.

With our current system:
Fox - His best stage in every match-up is RR/RC.
Falco - Has multiple stages for multiple match-ups, none of which are as good as RC/BS.
Jigglypuff - Her best stage in every match-up is Brinstar.
Sheik - Has multiple stages for multiple match-ups, none of which are as good as RC/BS.
Marth - Has multiple stages for multiple match-ups, none of which are as good as RC/BS.
Falcon - Has multiple stages for multiple match-ups, none of which are as good as RC/BS.
Peach - Her best stage in every match-up is Brinstar.

The current system favours Fox, Jigglypuff and Peach over all of the other characters.

Now lets say Falco had Jungle Japes, and Marth/Sheik had *insert good stage for them here*, then I wouldn't mind these stages.

There's no proof the stages have been shown to favor one character to the point of being over-centralizing.

Name one reason for Jigglypuff not to pick Brinstar as a counter-pick (excluding a mirror match).

Can't? That's pretty over-centralizing in my books.

But the way the melee community has been going stages are already just being banned subjectively, so whatever.

How do you ban stages objectively?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

(~7:08)
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The only times Brinstar will hit you on stage are these times. The bolded are the times is where the top platform is the only or second only safe spot.

I need to confirm this though myself for the times and the actually pattern.

 

[john!]

Jigglypuff - Her best stage in every match-up is Brinstar.
Peach - Her best stage in every match-up is Brinstar.

this is not possible

 

[Grim Tuesday]

this is not possible

It is if the Puff/Peach MU is 50:50 on Brinstar (Which it is very close to).

 

[john!]

It is if the Puff/Peach MU is 50:50 on Brinstar (Which it is very close to).

as long as the matchup is not the exact same on every stage, it's not possible

this isn't really important, i'm just being a **** about semantics lol

 

[Grim Tuesday]

as long as the matchup is not the exact same on every stage, it's not possible

this isn't really important, i'm just being a **** about semantics lol

Sorry, I didn't mean to say "on Brinstar" above.

But yeah, Peach/Puff IS about even on every stage xD

 

[Ghostbone]

Naa, Peach's best stage against puff would be FD.
Jiggs best stage against Peach would be KJ.
Both in my opinion but still.

Oh and Dreamland > Brinstar against Roy with Puff.
Not like that matchup matters >.>

Edit:
And just because some characters have better counterpicks than others, doesn't mean we should ban their counterpicks.
We shouldn't attempt to balance the games ourselves, unless a character actually breaks a stage, we should try to keep as much of the game as possible, as otherwise you're taking away depth.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Naa, Peach's best stage against puff would be FD.
Jiggs best stage against Peach would be KJ.
Both in my opinion but still.

Oh and Dreamland > Brinstar against Roy with Puff.
Not like that matchup matters >.>

You're right, Roy doesn't matter.

But fair enough then.
Let me change that list:
Jigglypuff - Always picks Brinstar except in a ditto or against Peach.
Peach - Always picks Brinstar except in a ditto or against Jigglypuff.

Actually, Peach is probably arguably better on other stages in some match-ups, but that just strengthens my argument. Because it would mean that only two characters are arbitrarily favoured over the other characters.

 

[Ghostbone]

But it's not arbitrary.

Because the stages are part of the game.

By taking them out you're arbitrarily nerfing them.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

But it's not arbitrary.

Because the stages are part of the game.

By taking them out you're arbitrarily nerfing them.

I wasn't talking about the actual nerfing/buffing by stage removal in general.

I was saying that by using this specific stage list, we would be favouring Fox and Jigglypuff over other characters. Where as if Brinstar and Rainbow Ride were banned, it would be much more even.

 

[Ghostbone]

We would be favoring them, because the game naturally favors them.
If FD was banned, it would be much more even.
If every stage besides BF and FoD (maybe) was banned, it would be much more even.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

We would be favoring them, because the game naturally favors them.

Then Corneria should be legal. I mean, sure it favours Fox, but that's because the game naturally favours him!

Ooh! Poke Floats too!

Hell, why don't we throw Temple in there for some fun!

If FD was banned, it would be much more even.
If every stage besides BF and FoD (maybe) was banned, it would be much more even.

We'd also lose depth unnecessarily.

 

[Ghostbone]

Corneria has a permanent wall, which heavily favours camping, and gives a massive advantage to whoever has a 1% lead.

Temple has circle camping -_-, come on Grim you're better than this.

Poke Floats should maybe be legal, but fox can potentially run away for most parts on this, on a kind of dynamic circle.

I think we're unnecessarily losing depth when we ban RC or Brinstar.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Corneria has a permanent wall, which heavily favours camping, and gives a massive advantage to whoever has a 1% lead.

Temple has circle camping -_-, come on Grim you're better than this.

Poke Floats should maybe be legal, but fox can potentially run away for most parts on this, on a kind of dynamic circle

Rainbow Ride has a huge amount of platforms and scrolls, which heavily favours camping, and gives a massive advantage to whoever has a 1% lead.

You're right, I am better than what you thought Just gotta think two steps ahead.

I think we're unnecessarily losing depth when we ban RC or Brinstar.

I knew you'd say that.

Firstly: I think we're unnecessarily losing depth when we ban Corneria.

Anyway, the difference is the level of depth.
Think about the difference between, for example, Pokemon Stadium and Brinstar:

Brinstar will always be Jigglypuff's best stage with a couple of exceptions. The only other note-worthy character who'd take you here is Peach.

Pokemon Stadium is a stage that can be used by multiple characters for different reasons.

That's why I would support BS and RC if other characters had equivelant legal stages that they could always rely on. It would take away the point of removing the stages in the first place so that it ends up to be "just removing depth".

 

[Ghostbone]

Jiggs and Peach wouldn't be the only character to ever counterpick Brinstar.

Many characters could counterpick it against spacies or Ice Climbers.

RC could be a counterpick for a lot of matches that don't involve fox.

Edit: Just like Ice Climbers should almost always counterpick FD, but other characters will still counterpick there in other matchups.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Jiggs and Peach wouldn't be the only character to ever counterpick Brinstar.

Many characters could counterpick it against spacies or Ice Climbers.

RC could be a counterpick for a lot of matches that don't involve fox.

Edit: Just like Ice Climbers should almost always counterpick FD, but other characters will still counterpick there in other matchups.

Out of the characters who matter (Fox/Falco/Jigglypuff/Sheik/Marth/Falcon/Peach), who would counter-pick Brinstar and/or RC?

 

[Ghostbone]

Because apparently IC, Ganon, Doc and Samus don't matter?

But anyway, assuming I don't have player bias....

I would counterpick Fox or Falco to Brinstar with any of them (besides themselves), depending on what stage my opponent banned.

I don't really know much about RC :/, I would counterpick people there with Falco, and possibly Peach in certain matchups.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Because apparently IC, Ganon, Doc and Samus don't matter?

No, they don't. They have too many flaws and are not popular enough to matter at the highest level of achievable play thus far.

But anyway, assuming I don't have player bias....

I would counterpick Fox or Falco to Brinstar with any of them (besides themselves), depending on what stage my opponent banned.

I don't really know much about RC :/, I would counterpick people there with Falco, and possibly Peach in certain matchups.

Why would you take Fox to Brinstar as Marth/Sheik if you'd do better on a stage like Battlefield, Yoshi's Story or Fountain of Dreams?

Why would you take Fox to Brinstar as Captain Falcon if you'd do better on a stage like Battlefield, Final Destination, maybe even PS?

Why would you take anyone to Rainbow Cruise as Peach when you can take them to Dreamland, or even better: Brinstar?

Who would you take to RC as Falco?

 

[Ghostbone]

You can't prove which of those stages is the best for the character though, it really comes down to player bias :/

For example I hate Yoshi's Story and FD as everyone, I never counterpick them.

But anyway, I would take fox to Brinstar with CF, and Sheik, not sure about Marth, the reasoning would be because I think I have a better shot there?

Peach can get camped really easily on Dreamland, so it's not always a good stage to go to after Brinstar.

I might counterpick Marth to RC as Falco, as well as against Puff.

CF wouldn't do too badly on RC either, as his recovery is buffed, and his mobility becomes more important.
Though I suck as him anyway so I can't give any insight on that.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You can't prove which of those stages is the best for the character though, it really comes down to player bias :/

You can't prove which of those characters is the best though, it really comes down to player bias :/

If a character is good, the majority of competitive players will use them. That is why Fox, Falco, etc... are the most popular characters. If a character is good on a stage, the majority of competitive players will pick that stage.

So you can pretty much determine a character's best stage by taking into account and averaging everyone's player bias.

With that in mind, what I said before very much applies. Maybe YOU would never pick YS or FD as anyone, but I'm sure the majority of players would.

The difference is clear to see; Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise and Kongo Jungle are all on a different scale to our other legal stages. To get those categories, I draw the line between when a stage becomes so good for a character that the majority of players consider it the only counter-pick they need, and when a stage is considered by the majority of players to be useful in multiple match-ups.

It just comes down to whether you think that is enough of a difference to ban the stages, or not.

I've laid down my argument, and everyone else has laid down theres. Honestly, this thread should just be closed. The pro-ban side can run tournaments there way, the anti-ban will run tournaments there way. Eventually one side is going to take over due to the influence of the community in their own local areas, and a standard will be set. Simple as that.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You can't prove which of those stages is the best for the character though, it really comes down to player bias :/

Go tell that to scientists. If you are not allowing us to use our observation skills as a tool in the proof, then we can actually prove nothing.

 

[OkamiBW]

Pretty sure the barrel's on a timer just like Randall and the lava.

Also, I've counterpicked space animals to Brinstar simply because I figured they don't have as much experience with the stage as I do.

 

[Wobbles]

Go tell that to scientists. If you are not allowing us to use our observation skills as a tool in the proof, then we can actually prove nothing.

Consider the thousands of matches you've played on the neutrals to the (I'm just guessing here) dozens you've played on Brinstar and Cruise, and tell me you have comparable data pools.

Hell half the people in this thread didn't even know that Brinstar's lava isn't random. Most people still don't know because they won't read this thread or even check to find out. Most people don't know the Randall timer or where and when and how many times Goldeen will pop up during Pokefloats. The amount of ignorance people still have about this game despite its age is astounding.

(ignorance isn't really the best word because it sounds like I'm ragging on everybody, which I'm not trying to do, I just think this game has lots of details and things to learn, so much that most people don't even know what they don't know)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Wobbles, Cruise is my favorite stage and as a fox player who doesn't ban brinstar I get CP'd there frequently. I have more tournament experience on those stages than some commonly banned neutrals (FoD).

Your argument keeps coming back to "You guys dont play the stage and don't know about it" and then you insult "half the people in this thread" by being condescending and assuming we dont know. I'm tired of it.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Hey, who knows that you can grapple recover on Brinstar?

Anyone?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Yeah you can do it off the stuff in the middle

 

[Doser]

Consider the thousands of matches you've played on the neutrals to the (I'm just guessing here) dozens you've played on Brinstar and Cruise, and tell me you have comparable data pools.

Hell half the people in this thread didn't even know that Brinstar's lava isn't random. Most people still don't know because they won't read this thread or even check to find out. Most people don't know the Randall timer or where and when and how many times Goldeen will pop up during Pokefloats. The amount of ignorance people still have about this game despite its age is astounding.

(ignorance isn't really the best word because it sounds like I'm ragging on everybody, which I'm not trying to do, I just think this game has lots of details and things to learn, so much that most people don't even know what they don't know)

The lava does not follow a strict timer, but it does follow a pattern in terms of what height it goes to next.

So in a sense it is semi random. I posted what I believe is the lava pattern on the fox forums and from what I can tell the lava can vary by a decent number of seconds each match.

I'd really like you to post your data on randall and the lava to see if it matches mine, I haven't really rechecked my timings a ton of times so it would be great to get it down pat.

@Okami

KJ64's barrel stops at random intervals during its route, so it can not practically be predicted after about a minute or two generally. I am not sure on the spin, but I believe it becomes randomized after each stop of the barrel.

None of the above things I said were meant to discredit your guys' views just my input on the stages' features.

 

[Smasher89]

Armada- that's because only I picked the stage here lol, just to play that way and prove the point lol.

Puffs KJ64 strategy against peach (& samus with more) also works on the non CP DL64(easier on KJ though). And even in some degree on PS(!).

But I like getting the game more centralized around Jiggs since it helps beating peaches making it easier to win as ICs in the end, even though having allways non favour camping against me and not the tool (CP stages) to turn their campinghabits against them. Corneria for example, killing fox through throwing him through the floor under the wing should be soooo effective if it's practicly learnable. IC also always can approach fox safe on that stage(including bairs under to guard under wingposition, which generally is believed to be unbeatable).


PS should be banned for the tree's hole.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Wobbles, Cruise is my favorite stage and as a fox player who doesn't ban brinstar I get CP'd there frequently. I have more tournament experience on those stages than some commonly banned neutrals (FoD).

Your argument keeps coming back to "You guys dont play the stage and don't know about it" and then you insult "half the people in this thread" by being condescending and assuming we dont know. I'm tired of it.

This.

When Poke Floats was still commonly legal, I counter-picked people there with Fox. I memorized the pattern just from experience because it was the only CP I ever needed.

Yoshi's Story is my favourite stage, and I know Randall's pattern off by heart as well.

Rainbow Cruise, Kongo Jungle 64 and Brinstar are my new favourite counter-picks and I know the mechanics of them as well.

Keep in mind that I'm an Ice Climber main, I pick these stages and characters that I'm not as comfortable with (Fox and Jigglypuff). And I still win, simply by abusing the stage mechanics.

 

[Armada]

Smasher: Yeah i have seen enough of you matches at that stage.
But you maybe remeber our matches on that stage (not tournament matches but i still think i proved the point really good).

 

[Mew2King]

How can anyone possibly EVER support Rcruise or Brinstar

if you aren't like 2 specific characters for each stage YOU LOSE or are SUPER SUPER HEAVILY DISADVANTAGED UNFAIRLY

the game SHOULD NOT COME DOWN TO "if I don't play really good falco/fox here or a really good puff peach here then ALMOST AUTO LOSE"

that point ALONE should make it banned forever

it's WORSE in singles than teams btw but in both cases they need to go

 

[Deleted member]

How can anyone possibly EVER support Rcruise or Brinstar

if you aren't like 2 specific characters for each stage YOU LOSE or are SUPER SUPER HEAVILY DISADVANTAGED UNFAIRLY

the game SHOULD NOT COME DOWN TO "if I don't play really good falco/fox here or a really good puff peach here then ALMOST AUTO LOSE"

that point ALONE should make it banned forever

it's WORSE in singles than teams btw but in both cases they need to go

RC and Bstar were suggested a long time ago as CPs against dash dancing as a technique and not against the characters specifically. This is probably why all of the marth/falcon players hate them.

 

[Mew2King]

LOL what

the counter to dash dancing is to just run past them or gradually close the space

both those stages need to go in both melee and in brawl

 

[Deleted member]

LOL what

the counter to dash dancing is to just run past them or gradually close the space

both those stages need to go in both melee and in brawl

usually when i watch you, your technique of choice to fight DD is to DD back harder. the only time I really see you close space on opponents is when you're just better than them and disrespect the DD or it's marth dittos because running past them to dtilt actually works.

i mean, you can probably still get them banned. the point is that they're there to CP dashdance, something a lot of characters (ZELDA) can't fight.

 

[Doser]

LOL what

the counter to dash dancing is to just run past them or gradually close the space

both those stages need to go in both melee and in brawl

What about KJ64 for singles and doubles?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

RC and Bstar were suggested a long time ago as CPs against dash dancing as a technique and not against the characters specifically. This is probably why all of the marth/falcon players hate them.

i thought falcon was like top 3 characters on both of those stages

 

[Deleted member]

i thought falcon was like top 3 characters on both of those stages

he's certainly not bad on them, he just can't DD effectively either.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Even if that was the case, why is it a good thing to have a legal stage that obviously disadvantages certain styles of play?

 

[Mew2King]

KJ64 I have no opinion

RC Brinstar Ban
PS stay neutral