Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*

[jalued]

If we could offer an alternate version of Olimar without pivot grabs and with normal priority on his moves, would we? No, of course not.

If we could offer an alternate version of Luigi with much better air speed but no up-b, would we? No, of course not.

If we could offer an alternate version of Jigglypuff with poor air speed but heavier weight, would we? No, of course not.

If we could offer an alternate version of Marth with great throws but less range, would we? No, of course not.

If we could offer an alternate version of Pokemon trainer without stamina or the ability to switch, would we? No, of course not.

We're not in the business of offering new options to players, especially when those new options are more homogenized and less unique. Sure, the Pokemon have their own strengths and weaknesses like other characters... but Olimar without pivot grabs or priority problems would still have lots of pros and cons too. Doesn't make that a good idea either.

We're trying to balance the game, not make an expansion pack. Even if offering fragments of PT is a playable, even somewhat elegant possibility, it is still a major design change.

just to say that was a really stupid argument. all of your examples for other characters were in some way a nerf to the character and would make them play very differently. Its a fundamental change to the entire character

PT's stamina is a nerf, so getting rid of it is a buff, and just making wild pokemon playable that cant change into anything else is just about variety, choice, which i never see as a bad thing. maybe if its possible to map the changing pokemon to L and R (so press R to go from squirtle to ivy, but hold L to swap to charizard on death) then that is a better solution, but not making them seperate is just stubborn and stupid.

i'll say it again, terrible argument

 

[Ryusuta]

Although I agree the argument he made was fundamentally flawed and wholeheartedly agree that the option to play as separate Pokemon is the only really fair course of action, I don't think there's cause to belittle his opinion quite so harshly. Remember that we're trying to find a fair way to resolve this dilemma, not polarize people.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Yes, it was indeed a bad argument, but these guys, even if they are sometimes stubborn, do not deserve insults or harsh words. But as I said before, the statement: "This is not an expansion pack" settles the thing. Why should I waste my time with more arguments? I said many strong and reasonable arguments in favor to wild pokemon and they just don't want to do it.

 

[B!squick]

I don't mean to be picky, but could someone do a better demonstration of Bowser's DAir for me? The new knock back did not look any different than the old one which may be due to the platform you start on in Big Blue. The addition damage is nice, though it seems just as punishable and useless on stage as it was before, mix ups aside.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

just to say that was a really stupid argument. all of your examples for other characters were in some way a nerf to the character and would make them play very differently. Its a fundamental change to the entire character

The whole point to his argument is that it's a fundamental change to an existing character who has already had a niche carved for themselves. What he is saying is that it would make PT play vastly different, which would both shoot down their claim of this being relatively easy to transition into from Brawl and that they would only be balancing things instead of creating game altering changes, such as the physics change Brawl+ took on balancing. You can't say those are someway nerfs as they are generalized, and he never specified how drastically the other things would change. Maybe he was suggesting Jigglypuff to become the heaviest character, but poorer overall aerial movement. That's a huge change, not necessarily a nerf. Changing PT as such is a huge change as well.

PT's stamina is a nerf, so getting rid of it is a buff, and just making wild pokemon playable that cant change into anything else is just about variety, choice, which i never see as a bad thing. maybe if its possible to map the changing pokemon to L and R (so press R to go from squirtle to ivy, but hold L to swap to charizard on death) then that is a better solution, but not making them seperate is just stubborn and stupid.

No, not at all.

Pokemon Trainer's Stamina isn't a "nerf", which suggests a change. It's a gameplay mechanic true to the character, and changing that goes against the guidelines they set. You could possibly argue that this gameplay mechanic is overall detrimental to the character, but I don't think of it as that way. I would say it's actually a well thought out design to the character, intended to promote switching within the battle, but has been executed poorly. The goal is great, just not exactly how it was handled.

So AA and Thinkaman could tweak Stamina to make it less of a tool for the opponent to exploit, and more of a gameplay feature that was intended. Removing it is just dumb, in my opinion of course, and should NOT be done.

I'm also against the notion of "Wild" Pokemon heavily. Whether you get this by making it so there is no autoswitch (a dumb notion) and no stamina, or by the more popular way of doing it by having separate character slots designated for the individual Pokemon. The first is just bad execution all around, and it's akin to removing PT entirely. I happen to be against the second because it changes the overall game pretty noticeably; Adding three characters completely changes the dynamics of matchups and what-not. It creates potentially new counters to pre-existing guys that would seriously hurt the intended goal of balancing. Throwing three new characters into the mix would hurt the goal more than it would help, honestly.

It's a fine route to take in something like Brawl+, as you have to relearn that. Mentioned previously, this project wants to stay relatively true to Brawl and it wants the transition from Brawl -> BBrawl not being too intimidating. The addition of new characters, while pleasing to those who don't like to use, say, Charizard, is actually more drastic than it seems.

I wouldn't be totally against L/R switching of Pokemon if a penalty was given with it. So, if you want to exclude Charizard from your team, your Stamina might stay on Ivy if you used Ivy->Squirtle->Ivy in a short amount of time (I believe this already happens if you get a Pokemon weary and switch over rapidly back to them). Granted, excluding Zard already hurts your killing power as a team, so that may be penalty enough. I'm fine with this given it is implementable.

In my eyes...
Stamina removal = No.
Wild Pokemon = No.
Stamina reworking = Yes
Option to choose which way to switch = Sure

I doubt it's possible to do right now, so the speed up on change is fine right now. I don't know if any of you guys have used PT in BBrawl, but he's a really solid character, so changing him too much might ruin the balance he's carved for himself.

Just my thoughts on some matters. Sorry if it's been gone over!

 

[Anomilus]

Well said Mr. Escalator. As I'm also against the introduction of "wild pokemon" and thus practically removing PT from the equation, you definitely hit the nail on the head regarding how such changes completely impede upon the very nature of this project. It's not as much about "big changes" as it is about "notable adjustments". Altering PT's switch-out timing is what I would consider a "notable adjustment". Removing stamina altogether, or removing auto-switching definitely falls into the "big change" category for reasons stated by Mr. Escalator.

At this point in vBrawl, Pokemon Trainer is all but my secondary. My best poke is Ivysaur while my worst is Charizard, so I generally go against the normal vein of Charizard or Squirtle starters. In the long run though, I continue working on all 3 characters because I recognize myself as training with Pokemon Trainer, not as training with Ivysaur then Squirtle then Charizard or whatever order. Being suddenly granted the ability to neglect my worst pokemon would present a TOTALLY different way of doing things. Even with BBrawl characters that have received some pretty strong adjustments (Better recovery Ike, stomp-grounding Ganondorf, Egg Roll Breaking Yoshi), they still end up playing the same.

If I had the ability to only use Ivysaur, I would definitely continue to play Ivysaur the same way, but I would also consider Ivysaur a totally new character. No matter what, Pokemon Trainer is an entity of a single character who possesses nearly 3x the amount of moves as a normal character; this power is balanced by potential match-up counters and a system that prevents abuse of such a system (however badly it was implemented).

BBrawl isn't about adding new characters, and splitting up PT's giant moveset into 3 separate parts would add new characters.....well Mr. Escalator said all of this. =P
I just wanted to state my stance on this as being for Thinkaman and AA's current vision of PT.

 

[Rykoshet]

if anyone has the first codeset I still have about 80 replays I can work with to demonstrate bowser, mario, d3, etc.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

yes the more vids on bbrawl the better ryko!!!!

 

[CRASHiC]

If we could offer an alternate version of Olimar without pivot grabs and with normal priority on his moves, would we? No, of course not.

If we could offer an alternate version of Luigi with much better air speed but no up-b, would we? No, of course not.

If we could offer an alternate version of Jigglypuff with poor air speed but heavier weight, would we? No, of course not.

If we could offer an alternate version of Marth with great throws but less range, would we? No, of course not.

If we could offer an alternate version of Pokemon trainer without stamina or the ability to switch, would we? No, of course not.

If we could offer an alternate version of King Dedede without his main gimp game, would we? HELL YES!

Corrected.

 

[shanus]

AA or thinkaman, I have a question regarding your use of the stage select codes (which might be of interest to you as well):
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6608103&highlight=sub-stage+select#post6608103

When you do stage select on the Spear Pillar level, do any of the levels spawn already broken (that is, the hole for the cave part is open)? If so, I'm interested in freezing spear pillar so that the pre-broken level is already spawned and is the only selectable choice.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Still, no one has given a solid argument to why wild pokemon has anything to do with the existence and uniqueness of pokemon trainer. Why does it ruin him? He is still there, and he if sucks compared to a single wild pokemon then he is flawed. That would only mean that many do not like the system he uses. I really do not think wild pokemon have such a big impact on tactics used to defeat them. You cannot abuse stamina, that's all. You still have to bring him down every stock in the same way.

What you say about matchup redesign is true, but is something that could be worked. If you don't wish to do it, that's another thing.

I want to say that those changes made to Hyrule Temple and Spear Pillar are not to my like. Much is lost. The camera's position is weird and those stages were nice as they were before.

Things that should be fixed:

- The camera on those stages goes too low and must of the time portraits and percentages are in front of the action. Also there is a strange glitch for special effects such as the wave when you do a double jump, the dust when you dash, and the sparks when you hit. They seem to be slowed.
- Ike's quick draw is BROKEN AS HELL. It's almost not punishable or not punishable at all. When you block you are sent backwards and you cannot punish. It's a move too quick and too good to have such a low cooldown. As it is now I can just spam that s**it and devastate anyone. This move is supposed to be unchanged? What hapenned?

 

[Sovereign]

I have a question. Why not replace the online training stage with another stage like Tabuu's Stage or Petey's Stage, since those are just less boring.

I know they're just as neutral as the Online Training Stage, but at the least they're interesting.

If the question has already been asked and answered, sorry for re-runs, but I'm not about to go through 100+ pages of posts to find out.

 

[Revven]

I have a question. Why not replace the online training stage with another stage like Tabuu's Stage or Petey's Stage, since those are just less boring.

I know they're just as neutral as the Online Training Stage, but at the least they're interesting.

If the question has already been asked and answered, sorry for re-runs, but I'm not about to go through 100+ pages of posts to find out.

Those stages can't be accessed on the multiplayer side of the disc, that's why.

 

[Alphatron]

Pokemon Trainer's stamina wouldn't be so bad of a hindrance if it weren't for a few things. Two of them being the following.

1- Because the game has to load the character, even switching on death can be punished.

2: With the knockback nerf, its hard to kill anyway, let alone knock them back at a reasonable %.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

I am very pleased with the changes made to:

Yoshi: He now feels powerful enough to defeat anyone. It makes me happy.

Samus: She is reborn. I can see her on Grand Finals on any BBrawl tournament.

Link: An elegant character, that before suffered from such an unfair fate, and was overshadowed by his ugly deformed clone (sorry Toon Link fans), it now has power and gimping arrows to ask for some respect.

Lucas: Now PK freeze really pays off. Sending someone frozen to death in a side blast zone
is priceless. Also, nice boost to Bair.

Ness: Pk Flash is now very scary. Most deadliest move in the game, probably. Pk fire is amazing now and all of his smashes are more juicy.


Congratulations for such a wonderful project. I will remain here testing and giving feedback (and troubles to you xP).

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Still, no one has given a solid argument to why wild pokemon has anything to do with the existence and uniqueness of pokemon trainer. Why does it ruin him? He is still there, and he if sucks compared to a single wild pokemon then he is flawed. That would only mean that many do not like the system he uses. I really do not think wild pokemon have such a big impact on tactics used to defeat them. You cannot abuse stamina, that's all. You still have to bring him down every stock in the same way.

What you say about matchup redesign is true, but is something that could be worked. If you don't wish to do it, that's another thing.

There are two ways to replicate a "Wild Pokemon" effect, and that is by modified PT so that you never have to switch (remove stamina and autoswitch) and the second is by creating copies of the characters that show up on the roster. I don't recall anybody trying to argue that the second removed PT's uniqueness, but the first definitely does. Autoswitching is necessary, so it's more of an argument to keep that than one against the most common form of "Wild Pokemon" (The second method).

However, there are other arguments why separate characters shouldn't be added into Balanced Brawl. Matchup redesign is a fairly substantial thing, and it may turn off some potential players to know that Ivysaur counter's their main (snake), and they aren't able to abuse the switches. We're pretty close to the first release of BBrawl, and the changes I have heard about from AmazingAmpharos and the changes currently in effect lead me to believe things are balanced nicely as is. Not perfect, but they are trying. To add three new characters creates quite a bit of more work AS WELL AS more feedback needed from several viewpoints. I'm not able to say for AA and Thinkaman, but I don't believe the effort put into balancing new characters is worth the gain of some people being happy with Air Camping with Squirtle.

One other argument, for the sake of it, is that you now have to balance these separate entities from the original PT. Squirtle without Stamina will probably need a nerf that, at this point in time, would affect both of them. He could likely abuse Air Camping at least as well as Wario, and he's not a shabby single character. To the best of my knowledge, I think if you nerf the copy, it would affect the Pokemon Trainer itself. Or buff, if you consider Charizard. These are other things to consider, and even if you can balance without affecting the other, balancing itself is an added burden besides just matchups.

Not to mention, some people just downright dislike the idea. The people who like Brawl as it is but are annoyed by, say, tripping and CGing will have to get reacquainted that much more.

I want to say that those changes made to Hyrule Temple and Spear Pillar are not to my like. Much is lost. The camera's position is weird and those stages were nice as they were before.

I actually think we gained a bit from those two stages, personally. Before, we had two absolutely unplayable stages, and now we have two slightly unplayable stages. Spear Pillar isn't too bad, save for the low boundaries, and Hyrule is only still annoying because of that one platform left on the left side. I'm not the biggest fan of these two stages, but I do think we gained a bit from having these slightly playable.


I do agree that Quickdraw's cooldown change is a little ridiculous when he isn't recovering. Maybe you guys should look into making it slightly slower, as to be able to punish better?

 

[Rykoshet]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc56bL_y5jU

This thing is amazing

 

[BoTastic!]

subscribed. :O

 

[Suspect]

Im just wondering what would make you guys give ike an Recovery like that (infinite sideB)

That looks like something that one hacker would do (that guy that had falco flying all over the place with infinite recovery)

 

[Linkshot]

Bahahaha dSmash got buffed waaaaay too much.

 

[Rykoshet]

Im just wondering what would make you guys give ike an Recovery like that (infinite sideB)

That looks like something that one hacker would do (that guy that had falco flying all over the place with infinite recovery)

Because it's still as easy to predict and punish as it always was, you just dont get to do it with your face.

Bahahaha dSmash got buffed waaaaay too much.

It does seem strong but keep in mind that they were either charged or headed outwards from the side of the stage, ike's smashes in general **** face when charged and someone lands into it.

 

[Linkshot]

I just think the angle should be very slightly higher (unless they were West-Coasting due to not being used to it)

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Is Ike's Dsmash now faster? I wasn't able to punish it the last time I played BBrawl.... Are there changes that are not listed? Or are this side effects of code change? A friend of mine reported a lag reduction on Bowser ground attacks and that is not listed anywhere. What's going on?

 

[Rykoshet]

It's ike's fastest move after jab along with up tilt at frame 13, the move just sucked so bad before that it was never used in the few situations it would be.

I just think the angle should be very slightly higher (unless they were West-Coasting due to not being used to it)

Honestly I think it's due to unfamiliarity, if someone gets sent flying across the stage they should have way more than enough time to either DI down and tech or momentum cancel.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

lol people are way too used to gaying ike... now they can't it's lol! to hear them asking for nerfing on the ike! i'm enjoying it too much tho.

 

[TreK]

Looks like sakurai does not approves with Bbrawl.

Something wtf-esque just happened. Like srsly, I was WTFed.
It was ok, testing samus against a lvl 3 cpu blah blah blah, then I randomly tripped. I thought "omgeee a bug in the no tripping hack". Still, wtf.
Then I rolled, and I RETRIPPED upon get up. wtf.
Then I rolled, didn't trip... ok, I SH+homing missile... When I land I'm in the trip animation... wtf
I took a replay.

*reboots his wii*
*watches the replay*
*notices the replay is desynched*

Ok, it solved itself. I'll still post this post (redundancy is redundant, isn't it ?) so you can tell me what happened/try to fix it if you didn't know of it "^^
Edit : just to avoid hysteria, I use the beta PAL version of page 55.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

In the PAL version, there's a glitch with samus that makes her trip constantly or something.

 

[Big O]

I tried out the new set and I like the changes made to Ganon. One thing I noticed though was that sometimes his down b would clank with thunder jolts and other times it would go through it (in training mode so no stale moves). The old Dsmash was very prone to DI and you guys did a good job of making sure it always links to the second hit. I noticed that sometimes the second hit would only do 12 damage and have really weak knockback. After trying out the Dsmash in regular Brawl I noticed that it also does 12 damage hits sometimes. When I Dsmash Mario at max range it does the weaker hit just to give you an example of when you get the weak hit. I think you guys should tweak the second hit so that there is no weaker hit and that it always does the stronger 15 damage hit. If you guys do a jab buff down the line you should just change all of the weaker hitboxes to be the same as the 9 damage hitbox and maybe give it +1 damage. I still was able to attack Ganon out of his up b so maybe you guys forgot to change it or tested it out on someone at low damage. When it makes them go into tumble they can still attack immediately.

I tried out the new Zelda and I like the new changes so far. The new Ftilt especially is really good and it also has a cool backwards drift effect if you hold shield or buffer another move out of it. The new jab is great for follow-ups now and the new Utilt angle makes it a slightly better kill move than Usmash.

I think Sheik's new dash attack is worse than the old one. It is very weak at low damage. So weak that people can hit you after you use it on them for free.

I think it would be nice if Lucas could PK freeze in the air without going into freefall. It gives him a slight momentum boost and it would make B-reversaling PK fire less risky since messing up won't lead to instant suicide.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Yeap, free fall after Pk freeze, Pk flash, absorbed Pk thunder, and Giant Punch (DK) should be removed.

I have a question... when you land a hit, the knockback is computed based on the damage before of after the hit?

 

[Linkshot]

Wizkick levitates Ganon. It will completely ignore Thunder Jolt if it is currently hugging the ground and not in its arc.

 

[Ussi]

Yeap, free fall after Pk freeze, Pk flash, absorbed Pk thunder, and Giant Punch (DK) should be removed.

I have a question... when you land a hit, the knockback is computed based on the damage before of after the hit?

I think the purpose of them going into free fall is the risk - reward for the move. Powerful moves tend to be limited in use cause of the risks they have and in the air its impossible to shield so the risks are lowered, therefore by making it that they are vulnerable till they land rebalanced that aspect, so to speak.

EDIT: @guy who wanted this for Lucas, Also Lucas already has an excellent recovery with zap jump and that magnet wave bounce.

Though PK flash and freeze in the air seems to be not broken. But DK abusing the punch in the air > uair seems a bit unavoidable. (that punch has barely any ending lag cause I can't punish a whiffed one with Pikachu)

absorbed PK thunder is a character weakness. Shouldn't temper with it as of yet

 

[MorpheusVGX]

I think the purpose of them going into free fall is the risk - reward for the move. Powerful moves tend to be limited in use cause of the risks they have and in the air its impossible to shield so the risks are lowered, therefore by making it that they are vulnerable till they land rebalanced that aspect, so to speak.

EDIT: @guy who wanted this for Lucas, Also Lucas already has an excellent recovery with zap jump and that magnet wave bounce.

Though PK flash and freeze in the air seems to be not broken. But DK abusing the punch in the air > uair seems a bit unavoidable. (that punch has barely any ending lag cause I can't punish a whiffed one with Pikachu)

absorbed PK thunder is a character weakness. Shouldn't temper with it as of yet

The Giant Punch thing may be true. But Pk Freeze and Pk Flash are hard to land (they are very rewarding now though). If after some more testing they still seem inferior, maybe they can be improved this way. Pk thunder is not that rewarding (especially Ness). Maybe that free fall could be removed to help them cover their recovery (especially Ness).

 

[Linkshot]

As a Ness main (for Low Tiers), I have to say that Ness is far too beastly onstage to get such offstage benefits.

 

[MK26]

Battle 17: WarioWare, Inc.: Minigame Mania

[picture]

(Release: 01/1994)
*The first game in which Wario was the main character

Wario doesn’t need friends. Even if you clear the minigames, you won’t be able to reduce your percentage.

So it's already coded to remove the damage restore...could it be possible to reverse this and make it so only the only benefit to clearing a mini game is damage restore?

 

[adumbrodeus]

The Giant Punch thing may be true. But Pk Freeze and Pk Flash are hard to land (they are very rewarding now though). If after some more testing they still seem inferior, maybe they can be improved this way. Pk thunder is not that rewarding (especially Ness). Maybe that free fall could be removed to help them cover their recovery (especially Ness).

I gotta agree with PK flash, it makes it useless midair, it's already a bad move for the same reason Din's fire is, why make it worse.


Pk thunder controls his second jump, so it's a quirky character specific weakness that doesn't seem to polarize match-ups. Leave it.

 

[Rouenne]

I think that Link's huge landing lag is still a problem

 

[Thinkaman]

Sorry for the sparse replies guys, I'm frantically working on the last large batch of changes.

Im just wondering what would make you guys give ike an Recovery like that (infinite sideB)

That looks like something that one hacker would do (that guy that had falco flying all over the place with infinite recovery)

Heh... Quick Draw is still very predictable and restricting. You certainly can't use it to stall in any way. It is huge for Ike's worst matchups, but in no way elevates him past other characters.

Bahahaha dSmash got buffed waaaaay too much.

People wanted me to increase the knockback, speed it up, reduce the lag, and lower the angle to at least 20 degrees. All I did was lower the angle to 25 degrees.

Is Ike's Dsmash now faster? I wasn't able to punish it the last time I played BBrawl.... Are there changes that are not listed? Or are this side effects of code change? A friend of mine reported a lag reduction on Bowser ground attacks and that is not listed anywhere. What's going on?

The only attack timing changes, period:
Faster Luigi Fireballs
+5 frames on Falcon and Ganon d-tilt ending lag, to prevent infinite trip chain
-10 (maybe just 9, I forget) frames startup on Zelda f-tilt
+1 frame (lol) on Wario d-throw ending lag
Slower ending lag on Ivysaur aerial up-b
Faster ending lag on Quick Draw (hit only)

Anything else is imagination.

Something wtf-esque just happened. Like srsly, I was WTFed.
It was ok, testing samus against a lvl 3 cpu blah blah blah, then I randomly tripped. I thought "omgeee a bug in the no tripping hack". Still, wtf.
Then I rolled, and I RETRIPPED upon get up. wtf.
Then I rolled, didn't trip... ok, I SH+homing missile... When I land I'm in the trip animation... wtf
I took a replay.

*reboots his wii*
*watches the replay*
*notices the replay is desynched*

Ok, it solved itself. I'll still post this post (redundancy is redundant, isn't it ?) so you can tell me what happened/try to fix it if you didn't know of it "^^
Edit : just to avoid hysteria, I use the beta PAL version of page 55.

In the PAL version, there's a glitch with samus that makes her trip constantly or something.

I don't know anything about this, sorry guys.

I tried out the new set and I like the changes made to Ganon. One thing I noticed though was that sometimes his down b would clank with thunder jolts and other times it would go through it (in training mode so no stale moves). The old Dsmash was very prone to DI and you guys did a good job of making sure it always links to the second hit. I noticed that sometimes the second hit would only do 12 damage and have really weak knockback. After trying out the Dsmash in regular Brawl I noticed that it also does 12 damage hits sometimes. When I Dsmash Mario at max range it does the weaker hit just to give you an example of when you get the weak hit. I think you guys should tweak the second hit so that there is no weaker hit and that it always does the stronger 15 damage hit. If you guys do a jab buff down the line you should just change all of the weaker hitboxes to be the same as the 9 damage hitbox and maybe give it +1 damage. I still was able to attack Ganon out of his up b so maybe you guys forgot to change it or tested it out on someone at low damage. When it makes them go into tumble they can still attack immediately.

Ganon's good, and the throw changes he is getting should remvoe any remaining doubt that he is not a good character. Up-B should also be "solved" for good.

I tried out the new Zelda and I like the new changes so far. The new Ftilt especially is really good and it also has a cool backwards drift effect if you hold shield or buffer another move out of it. The new jab is great for follow-ups now and the new Utilt angle makes it a slightly better kill move than Usmash.

Have you tried messign with up-b? It's my personal favorite.

I think Sheik's new dash attack is worse than the old one. It is very weak at low damage. So weak that people can hit you after you use it on them for free.

This is my fault; I had already noticed it and it's on my fix list. Stupid mistake, sorry.

I think it would be nice if Lucas could PK freeze in the air without going into freefall. It gives him a slight momentum boost and it would make B-reversaling PK fire less risky since messing up won't lead to instant suicide.[/QUOTE]

Yeap, free fall after Pk freeze, Pk flash, absorbed Pk thunder, and Giant Punch (DK) should be removed.

I have a question... when you land a hit, the knockback is computed based on the damage before of after the hit?

The Giant Punch thing may be true. But Pk Freeze and Pk Flash are hard to land (they are very rewarding now though). If after some more testing they still seem inferior, maybe they can be improved this way. Pk thunder is not that rewarding (especially Ness). Maybe that free fall could be removed to help them cover their recovery (especially Ness).

To answer the question first, it is before.

As for the fall states, Pk Thunder won't be changed, Ness and Lucas are fine with their universally vulnerable recovery. (They have techniques to protect themselves, and a solid game on-stage to make up for it. No free fall after Pk Flash was actually tested. In the end, it was not included (nor for Pk Freeze) because it just doesn't matter much, if ever. We might include it if enough people expect it to be changed, but it really helps them none that our testers could ever find.

Wizkick levitates Ganon. It will completely ignore Thunder Jolt if it is currently hugging the ground and not in its arc.

And Bom-Ombs!

So it's already coded to remove the damage restore...could it be possible to reverse this and make it so only the only benefit to clearing a mini game is damage restore?

That's what we would like. For me personally, it isn't a priority and I want to get character stuff hammered out more first.

I think that Link's huge landing lag is still a problem

Most testers are reporting that Link himself is the new problem on the block.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I thought you also increased Jigglypuff's pummel

Word on the block is that Link is the new Snake.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Thinkaman, you don't have to apoligize for late replies. We know you are working hard for this project to succeed.

So you say knockback is computed based on damage that was before the hit. Then why when you added only damage to a move you said something like: "and the knockback associated with it".

Here:

+1% on strong laser
This encourages ROB to make use of his strong laser rather than the much-more damage-efficient spammable one. The small increase in knockback that comes with it is modestly appreciated by ROB, especially for getting enemies off stage.


Will Rob's Side B be fixed? That moves sucks really hard xD, even in multiplayer battles is a total fail. It's a "please-punish-me move" with so little reward.

 

[Rykoshet]

I thought you also increased Jigglypuff's pummel

Word on the block is that Link is the new Snake.

Snake is the new snake, link is just a very very very good alternative.