Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*

[Linkshot]

Because if you're dealing more damage, you're dealing more knockback on the next hit

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Because if you're dealing more damage, you're dealing more knockback on the next hit

You are a genius.

 

[Linkshot]

About ROB, I find his Side+B to be fine, since you can tilt it to catch their SDI.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Snake is the new snake, link is just a very very very good alternative.

Pretty much, Snake still has much better stage control, but Link is a NICE gimper.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

About ROB, I find his Side+B to be fine, since you can tilt it to catch their SDI.

Really? There is no Rob guide that does not suggest to avoid using that move.

- It has some starting lag.
- The first hits have low knockback but does not suck you in so most of the time you are punished before you can give the final hit with good knockback.
- Considerable cooldown time.
- Poor KO power.
- Not a rewarding damage.
- Not useful on multiplayer matches. Someone punishes you most of the time.

Maybe by changing the angle it can be fixed. Making the initial hits to suck you in the way mach tornado is in vBrawl.

 

[GwJ]

Morpheus, Side B is one of ROB's not-so-great moves. And yes, it can be punished but ONLY if your opponent knows how to correctly SDI and if they have the proper move to attack with. I'm one of the only ROB's that I know of (Check the ROB video thread) that actively uses it. It's a matter of prediction. I wouldn't ask for more damage because it can give anywhere from 2-22 percent. If anything I wouldn't mind an aerial movement buff. The ground is fine because you can Side-B and move in the opposite direction to space it while shieldpoking at a safe distance.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

my friend duck uses it a lot, hes very good at it. incredible sheild pressure, and good for punishing spot dodges

 

[Winnar]

Okay so I just played balanced brawl for the second time, and the first time with the Genesis update. Findings!

-Fox cannot escape MK's mach tornado at any % (not tested after 95%'ish). I didn't test anyone else other than Marth and Bowser, who had no problem escaping within the first two or three hits, but it's something to look into.

-I'm not convinced that Sonic's spring should spike. It has no startup lag, it's literally impossible to punish, and it lasts a long time (for a spike). It's not terribly hard to avoid, I know, but it's kind of is inconsistent with the rest of brawl's spikes (there's at least some risk in trying to use any other spike but the spring spike). Just something to consider.

-Link's arrows are beautiful.

-Peach is fun to play. Awesome. Did you raise the chance of getting non-turnip things? Or am I just extremely lucky? I got a bomb, a turnip, then another bomb, and another time I got two beam swords in a row. >_> On average I get at least one mr. saturn per match and usually every second or third I get a beamsword or a bomb. In any case it was really fun and funny every time it happened XD

-Ike's recovery is awesome now. Thank you.

Um...I can't remember anything else and I don't have time anyway. Goodnight, and thanks again for all the work, it's resulted in fun times :D

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Morpheus, Side B is one of ROB's not-so-great moves. And yes, it can be punished but ONLY if your opponent knows how to correctly SDI and if they have the proper move to attack with. I'm one of the only ROB's that I know of (Check the ROB video thread) that actively uses it. It's a matter of prediction. I wouldn't ask for more damage because it can give anywhere from 2-22 percent. If anything I wouldn't mind an aerial movement buff. The ground is fine because you can Side-B and move in the opposite direction to space it while shieldpoking at a safe distance.

Well, I will surely watch your vids to see how you do it.
By the way. Are you a woman?

 

[GwJ]

I'm more woman than you can handle.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Ha ha ha ha.. try me...

I don't get to know smasher girls everyday. It is interesting.

So... do you have a link to your videos?

 

[Linkshot]

I sense a derail. Let's get back to ROB, Fox, and Peach >.>

 

[Rykoshet]

I'm more woman than you can handle.

zomgafk2fap

wait...

 

[hankydysplasia]

I sense a derail. Let's get back to ROB, Fox, and Peach >.>

I tested ROB (Genesis Edition) out tonight for the first time with a human opponent. He didn't know about the new F-Tilt, and I got his Yoshi at about 150% on Yoshi's Island when he rolled away about to the edge only to get hit with my fully charged top. I don't think he could have DI'd it. It was great.

However, I don't know if it'll be that great once your opponent figures it out. It was a really creative solution to setup a kill move though, that is pretty situational and has to be planned for. I didn't noticed anything from the 1% boost to the charged laser. That laser is already harder to hit with because it comes out slower, so I'll still be pounding the cheaper quick ones. More knockback (in addition to the 1%) might change my mind though. If the person is >100% and out off the stage, a big laser would be a great tool. Not sure if that would help with the harder match-ups though. I forgot to tell him to play as G&W. I'll probably get more testing done later this week with ol' R.O.B.

/end random talking

 

[Ryusuta]

Anyone want to play this online for a few games with me? I'd like to see how well this works on wi-fi and play around with some of the matches.

 

[Eldiran]

Anyone want to play this online for a few games with me? I'd like to see how well this works on wi-fi and play around with some of the matches.

Sure, why not? It's been a long time since I've gone against a good opponent. ...which means I probably suck, but I'll do my best.

 

[Ryusuta]

Bug report: The Hanenbow-to-Training Room code does NOT work online, even if both players are playing BBrawl.

 

[ffdgh]

remember, they must have all stage related codes on but lol whop am i to say this

wanna test it again?
i can boot my wii now

 

[Thinkaman]

Yeah, this is known.

 

[Ryusuta]

Got it. Thanks, Thinkaman. Eldiran and I have also been having desync troubles that we're working through. Not sure what's causing them, but it might have something to do with custom music on his end.

Edit: Yep, that's what it was.

 

[ffdgh]

hmm i've tried the custom musuc/textures online and there were no issues...although i've never b brawled online with em

 

[MorpheusVGX]

I didn't have any trouble playing online. I was having horrible Input lag but I guess that didn't have anything to do with BBrawl.

Did you saw that because you reduced the lag when Ike's quick draw hits, the move cannot be punished now? Becuase the reduced lag is also happening when you hit a shield. If I dodge I usually get beaten by his neutral combo. If I block it pushes me back and he gets little lag. The move is BROKEN.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

LOLOL is all i can say about ikes quickdraw... i'm guessing ikes side B is hard to predict? i mean seriously falco's side b is just as hard to punish if done correctly with his annoying new %dmging lasers... go fight some above average falco that does nothing but spam lasers and side B. lol that will fix ur your "ikes side B is broken" i rather deal with a side B that's stopping towards me, then one going past me. THATS just me though xD

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I didn't have any trouble playing online. I was having horrible Input lag but I guess that didn't have anything to do with BBrawl.

Did you saw that because you reduced the lag when Ike's quick draw hits, the move cannot be punished now? Becuase the reduced lag is also happening when you hit a shield. If I dodge I usually get beaten by his neutral combo. If I block it pushes me back and he gets little lag. The move is BROKEN.

It's not broken; it's just safe on block. You can defeat it via all of the following methods.

-Powershield it. Quick Draw is unsafe on powershield.
-Spotdodge it.
-Perform a well timed roll behind Ike right before he hits your shield and then punish (may not work with extremely bad rolls, definitely works with Mr. Game & Watch who has a below average roll though).
-Don't shield at all and fire a projectile in front of you as Ike rushes.
-Since the rushing is predictable, use Toad with Peach or Counter with Marth or Ike.
-Use a move that sticks out in front of you so well that it just beats out Quick Draw (Moves like King Dedede ftilt are very safe bets, but a wide variety of moves may work. This isn't explored well).
-Jump and hit Ike in the head.

Also, if you've been testing it online, you'll get the wrong idea. It's very broken if things are laggy, but in offline play with no lag, it's pretty counterable. It's good, but it's far from broken.

Some other things to discuss...

Useless and extremely bad moves...

We fixed a lot of them but not all of them. Please allow me to explain.

Mario's F.L.U.D.D. versus Squirtle's Water Gun

No, I wasn't just being spiteful over some Mario players claiming this move is good (seriously, it's not). However, I do think it fits into Mario's game a lot less well than Squirtle's for one simple reason. With Squirtle, stamina gives the opponent a specific reason to run away from you. Giving you something of decent quality to charge is a natural idea to give your opponent some incentive not to leave you alone (the planned speedup for switching animations plays into the same idea; leave the PT alone and he will take advantage of it). The other side of things is that some testing suggests that Squirtle may, in fact, have an amazing camping game... other than the fact that stamina makes camping as Squirtle stupid. I don't want to introduce a wave of run-away Squirtles into the game (IMO a pretty compelling reason to leave stamina in!), and not improving F.L.U.D.D. plays into that a bit since Mario has no such restrictions. There is, of course, the petty flavor side of things where it makes more sense for a water type Pokemon to have a better water move than a guy who can shoot fire out of his hands.

That being said, F.L.U.D.D. isn't completely off the table, but it just doesn't seem like something that fits well into Mario's game or something that Mario needs. When Mario is up close using his rock solid tilts, smashes, and aerials he seems to do so well, and for when he's out or on the defense his other specials already seem to serve him so well.

DK Giant Punch (why no helpless removal)

This move hits as hard as most of the better charged fsmashes. If you manage to hit with a properly charged Giant Punch off-stage (9-wind, though max probably works just as well for this really), odds are you can kill at almost any percent. Of course, this move is very rewarding on-stage and fits very well into DK's game so nerfing it is really out of the question so much as it's not hard for me to see why this helpless fall state is in the game.

Zelda Din's Fire (why no helpless removal)

I don't want to give Zelda players an extra incentive to spam this, and to be honest, my intuition just very strongly tells me it's a bad idea beyond what I can describe.

Ganondorf Warlock Punch/Captain Falcon Falcon Punch

If we could, we'd probably make these do obscene shield damage! Anyway, the main issue is that these moves have a fundamental problem of hitting way too slowly to ever be actually useful, and they really don't have any place in their games. I did consider some goofy timing changes that would give them obscure usefulness (Falcon Punch with 0 frames of cooldown?), but in the end just leaving them alone is really for the best health of the game.

Ice Climbers dair

Just so you guys know, this IS buffed in the next version, and it's actually pretty decent.

R.O.B. Arm Rotor

It's a poor move no doubt, but it's not completely awful. If you are really good at angling it correctly (as I have seen duck do, to agree with Stealth Raptor's testimony), it's alright as an attack even if hard to hit with. The more important note here is that it reflects projectiles. It's difficult to use correctly, but when R.O.B. surprise deflects a Charge Shot or does Arm Rotor right into Pikachu's Thunder, causing massive damage to Pikachu, it doesn't seem quite so useless. That does raise the point that making this move worth using more often would naturally have the side-effect of making projectiles less effective against R.O.B., a character who already is very good at projectile wars.

The short version of this is that it already has a limited place in R.O.B.'s game, and I'm not sure that an expanded role for it is appropriate or good design.

Kirby powers (in general)

We're kinda all over the place on these, but here's a very good reason we don't make them all the same as the originals. We can't change Kirby hat projectiles (like Kirby's Mario fireball). The hitbox gathering code just plain ignores them for mysterious reasons. We have used them in some instances to help Kirby a tiny bit in his bad matchups (like buffing his Zelda and Marth powers), and we do intend for them to have an expanded role in the next version with Copy being safe on hit and doing just as much damage as Exhale. It should be interesting.

King Dedede Jet Hammer

You know a move is bad when most people probably forget it was even in the game to ask us to buff it. The simple answer here is that it doesn't really have much theoretical use that his forward smash does not, and either way, King Dedede doesn't seem like a good candidate for buffs. I'd like to buff Jet Hammer in some way if the future suggests King Dedede needs some help though.

Lucario Double Team

Our initial attempts to improve this failed because this move has some very arcane mechanics that come into play and resist frame speed changes (I wouldn't really consider making it counter-attack faster a legitimate timing change so much as making a totally worthless move have some function). We might look into it before the next release, but it's a pretty small issue all around.

Jigglypuff Sing

This move is definitely horrible, but consider what it would look like as a good move. Jigglypuff could routinely immobilize you, removing all control of your character for an extended period. Also, if you have amazing timing that currently isn't very practical to master, Jigglypuff can infinitely lock people in sleep (you need one of the three pulses on top of them the frame they wake up). Improving it may make that actually reasonable, something to be scared of itself. All in all, I'd really say that more than any other move in the smash series, Sing is just poorly thought out with the game being thankful it's just plain garbage every time. It's not being buffed because the game is better with it sucking.

Ness Pk Flash/Lucas Pk Freeze (why no helpless)

Honestly, we just didn't see these mattering at all. The effect was so completely trivial that it became a question of why deviate from the original game; neither of these moves is really useful in singles, and even in teams off-stage is the last place you'd want to use them anyway. It's not completely off the table is we saw some real utility for Ness and Lucas in it... though really Ness and Lucas are not bad at all right now.

Mr. Game & Watch Judgment Hammer

This move is completely dumb luck, something I'm loathe to reward. As things stand, this move is a desperation move that isn't used much but does give him a tool to introduce a large luck element to the game. It's fine because it's really not worth it, but if it were worth it, it would seem to have the potential to cause a lot of problems. Also, honestly, Mr. Game & Watch doesn't need buffing.

This is about all I have time for, but a lot of people have been asking about useless or extremely poor moves we didn't improve. Do note there are a lot we did improve (Ganon utilt, Mario dtilt, Sheik dair, etc.). Hopefully this will help you understand the others.

 

[Rykoshet]

I don't want to give Zelda players an extra incentive to spam this, and to be honest, my intuition just very strongly tells me it's a bad idea beyond what I can describe.

Honestly man I've gone through a practically 8 minute match where I dodged 56 din's fires and that was ages ago, the move is very easily punished and is pretty terrible all around unless the person is in an otherwise helpless state. You can remove the freefall animation, it won't affect how she gets played aside from followups, the move will still be used as much as it always has been.

In cases where the difference would be minimal to nothing,m it's still best to not punish the player for bad circumstance, in the case of freefall animations.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

I see. Everything sounds reasonable.

Maybe this isn't something you are considering, but this is also improving balance on 4 player Free For All Matches. And there are moves that are not that good on 1 vs 1 but are quite useful ond multiplayer matches and that is OK (also, Brawl overall speed is ok for multiplayer matches, Melee and Brawl+ are confusing and chaotic). For example: Pk Flash, Pk Freeze, Falcon Punch, Egg Roll, Dimensional Cape, Arm Rotor.

I do see a game design flaw when a move is poor in both single and multiplayer matches. Example: F.L.U.U.D. , Jet Hammer, Sing, Whip chain, Warlock Punch. If something, no matter how little could be given to them to improve, it would do good on game balance. Because game balance is not just about power between characters, but also about usefulness within the options a character has. Stale move negation give value to those moves that are not that good. But when a move is too awful, it is just ignored and forgotten.

It may be true that some moves don't seem to take place in the offensive or defensive set of a character but that is because of how things are right now. If the move wasn't that bad it could have been integrated into their gameplay in interesting ways. Not every player plays the same way with the same character.

By the way, I am also a game programmer and designer n_n and I respect your work.

 

[NintenJoe]

In the Genesis edition of bBrawl, Zelda isn't helpless after she uses din's fire. Is this an accident?

 

[Revven]

Sounds intentional to me, and everyone should be fine with it, her Side B isn't spammable really.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Smashboards ate this post once, extremely obnoxiously, so I have to redo this...

Din's Fire is a mistake. We were messing with it and it slipped through the cracks. I apologize for the failure of quality control. Likewise, Mach Tornado isn't quite right in the Genesis build; somehow the change on it got mixed up resulting in something other than what it's supposed to be. Expect more professionalism on this sort of thing in the standard release, which is coming along very nicely (throw mods are really amazing).

I will say about Din's Fire that it's a rare case where low level play has a compelling interest. The move is already broken among bad players, and a change here is unlikely to be a good design direction for high levels (mostly irrelevant). Also, like I said, my intuition (which I trust heavily) really tells me it's a bad idea. I just don't see the justification for it.

As per the overall design consideration, you do have to remember that we inherited all of Brawl's design and then are working with it; we're not making these characters from the ground up. While there's something interesting in almost everything which, even if not useful now, can be made interesting, some things are just plain bad ideas. Sing is a good example of a move that's just a bad idea. You have Sheik's chain as well (which is actually useful for recovery) that, as an attack, stands to do little if buffed except maybe make an unwinnable matchup for Ganondorf; it doesn't seem like a prudent thing to buff. In these cases, I feel as though the path of least damage for these moves (moves that are really unimportant now) is to just not change them. If I were designing the game from the ground up I just would not include several of the more poorly thought out specials, but that's not what I'm doing.

Don't interpret this as me saying Brawl is poorly designed; it's not. We are only as successful as we are because Brawl was such a good base to work with. It's inevitable that some poor design will seep into any game though, and we do have to acknowledge that and decide on the best way forward, knowing our limits and our purpose.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Yeap, Sakurai is a **** genius at game design. Look how successful Smash Bros is. And is it good that you are avoiding to homogenize characters, because Sakurai said that every one of them was in the game for a reason and was intended to feel different when you use it. That is something I enjoy very much when I use many characters. Everyone gives me a pleasant but different sensation (running speed, jumping, floating, force). And there are those that are pretty unique above the others (Pk trainer, ice climbers, Olimar).

So, by when is the first official release going to take place?

 

[Deleted member]

wait, you called sakurai a genius at game design?

*laughs*

in the WBR we are currently trying to figure some physics out and they make NO sense AT ALL.
some moves seem to follow no rules whatsoever, and the general mechanics are harder to understand than quantum physics.

 

[Mit]

I don't recall reading about this, but I'm wondering if it's been fixed in BBrawl (as I believe it is possible).

When Captain Falcon or Mario use their up-b to grab the ledge, for whatever reason, they receive the ending lag from landing an up-b normally, whenever they next land on the ground.

So, say I'm Captain Falcon, if I grab the ledge with up-b, hit up to jump back onto the level, and then land, I endure this ungodly landing lag that should not exist. It's able to be canceled (by both characters) by air dodging or using certain auto-canceling moves before hitting the ground, but it shouldn't have to be something we have to worry about, and I forget about it sometimes and end up getting punished.

I believe Brawl+ fixed this a long time ago or something, though, so if you guys could include that (again, it might even be in there already, I'm not sure) that'd be great.

 

[Rudra]

When Captain Falcon or Mario use their up-b to grab the ledge, for whatever reason, they receive the ending lag from landing an up-b normally, whenever they next land on the ground...

The triple jump glitch. It probably should be taken care of, if it hasnt already.

 

[Rykoshet]

I will say about Din's Fire that it's a rare case where low level play has a compelling interest. The move is already broken among bad players, and a change here is unlikely to be a good design direction for high levels (mostly irrelevant). Also, like I said, my intuition (which I trust heavily) really tells me it's a bad idea. I just don't see the justification for it.

At low level play, your design for quick draw is FAR more broken than a din's fire that doesnt auto SD a zelda if she gets shoved off the stage due to her own animation. At low levels of play, yoshi and ganon grounding people is abusable as hell, at low level play, allowing diddy to have bananas at all is pretty unbeatable. I learned about glide tossing like 2 and a half weeks into import and figured it out in 2 tries. Low level play is exploitable as hell, din's fire is not going to put it on its head. At high level play, the change is wholly irrelevant and only serves to give zelda some cover on her way back to the stage that can be attacked through and neutralized anyway at the very most. The change serves no functional purpose aside from not causing zelda to SD should she screw up a high level technique like b reversing to momentum boost towards the stage. If your worry only affects the level of play where people dont know how to shield yet, it's silly to hold her back at any level above it because of something that lwo level zeldas wont be able to fully utilize anyway. It's logically unsound, I'm sorry to be so forward.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The point is that it serves no purpose. The Ike change actually is beneficial for higher levels so it overrides lower level concerns. In this case, it's doing almost nothing so I don't see the high level concerns. Honestly, accidental suicide if you try to b-reversal (with Zelda having very little use for b-reversals anyway)? At best this is "why?" versus "why not?" with me feeling that "why?" has the burden of proof on them.

 

[Ussi]

Actually Zelda has that B-reversal NL to momentum cancel... so I saw in the Zelda boards at least

 

[Eyada]

Actually Zelda has that B-reversal NL to momentum cancel... so I saw in the Zelda boards at least

Thread can be found here: Link

Fox can do it too, with Shine. Apparently Zelda is prone to accidentally using Din's while attempting this technique.

Edit:

Smashboards ate this post once, extremely obnoxiously, so I have to redo this...

Regularly Ctrl + A --> Ctrl + C --> down arrow key to clear selection while typing up a post. It's saved me from stupid forum software too many times to count.

 

[Rykoshet]

It provides no game changing benefit to remove the deadfall, but a nominal one against mishaps at high level play. It's detrimental to keep it.

 

[TLMSheikant]

And would give zelda another tool to defend herself offstage. +1 for no freefall dins fire.

 

[Linkshot]

If No Freefall aerial Din's becomes too spammable, maybe extra ending lag?