Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*

[Swordplay]

It never was stamina that bothered me.

What always seemed stupid for me whats Pokemon weaknesses.....It models the original pokemon game design but its not good for a smash game.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Honestly weaknesses are pretty trivial and go both ways. Like, sure Ivysaur dies lower than usual to Mr. Game & Watch forward smash, but he also escapes Ness Pk Fire easier. I think it's an interesting quirk if nothing else, and the best part really is that it doesn't matter much. Olimar's elemental properties are a much bigger deal, to be honest.

 

[Sovereign]

I'm extremely sorry if I missed it, or have been ignorant of the topic, but has a codeset for a non-hacked Wii been made for this? I really want to give it and B+ a try, but something tells me that's a long ways away from now. I'm always going to be for the original version over the others, even after playing, but I would like to try the others, simply because it's what everyone expected when the game came out.

 

[GHNeko]

I'm extremely sorry if I missed it, or have been ignorant of the topic, but has a codeset for a non-hacked Wii been made for this? I really want to give it and B+ a try, but something tells me that's a long ways away from now. I'm always going to be for the original version over the others, even after playing, but I would like to try the others, simply because it's what everyone expected when the game came out.

You just need to use bannerbomb to boot up Gecko OS directly with all the required files on your SD card (gameconfig.txt / codes folder with the .gct you want to boot from) in order to play BBrawl or B+ on a virgin console. :V

 

[Sterowent]

You just need to use bannerbomb to boot up Gecko OS directly with all the required files on your SD card (gameconfig.txt / codes folder with the .gct you want to boot from) in order to play BBrawl or B+ on a virgin console. :V

woah, geckoOS works with BBomb now?

 

[GHNeko]

Did it not work before? I have yet to use it (Bannerbomb), so I have no clue about compatitibility. :V

If that's the case, you could probably just use an older gecko or ocarina with a snapshot. V:

 

[TreK]

You just need to use bannerbomb to boot up Gecko OS directly with all the required files on your SD card (gameconfig.txt / codes folder with the .gct you want to boot from) in order to play BBrawl or B+ on a virgin console. :V

sounds great (I'm going to a smashfest on satursday, and the guy can't hack his wii because he doesn't have a SD reader)
Just a little question before I go, does it exist in PAL ?

 

[Arkaether]

Just so you know, Bannerbomb doesn't support running GeckoOS directly. If you want to get it to work, you're going to have to install HBC first and use that to run GeckoOS.

And yes, homebrew works regardless of region.

 

[grim mouser]

First, Toon Link's Spin Attack buff is not even remotely in the same category as removing Auto-Switch. The buff to Spin Attack is a minor change that emphasizes something Toon Link is already good at (damage dealing) and it fits very well into his current playstyle, both of which make it fit within the guidelines of balance used by this project; on the other hand, removing Auto-Switch is a major change that fundamentally alters the playstyle of Pokemon Trainer as well as fundamentally altering the entire character concept, both of which make it not fit within the guidelines for balance used by this project. As such, they are not in the same category of changes; one fits nicely within the balance guidelines of the project while the other thoroughly violates them. A direct comparison is not entirely fair.

That said, examining Toon Link, it seems apparent that he needs to be improved in some fashion as he is below the desired level of "power" this project seeks for all characters. Given this, we know that we must make Toon Link better somehow.

To do so, we could either mitigate one of his weaknesses or buff one of his strengths. In particular, we could look at his polarized match-ups for some inspiration for good things to change; unfortunately, Toon Link doesn't really have any polarizing disadvantages, so that's not helpful to us. That leaves us with arbitrarily buffing a strength or mitigating a weakness. Looking at TLink, he has several nice strengths that essentially center around damage racking but he suffers from a notable lack of killing power. None of his other weaknesses are particularly character defining, so it behooves us to maintain his inability to kill. As such, we're left with buffing his damage dealing.

AA and Thinkaman decided that Spin Attack was a nice candidate, probably because it presented slightly "glitchy" behavior that isn't nice to have in a finished product, but they easily could have chosen any number of other moves. They probably did a detailed analysis of his moveset and his various match-ups and decided that it fit him the best. Ultimately though, the buff is perfectly justified because it accomplishes the overall goal of improving TLink slightly in order to help his tournament viability. He didn't need a big change, thankfully, but he did need a change. As such, the buff was entirely necessary.

I am not saying it was a useless buff. I'm saying it doesn't strictly conform to the main three goals.

1. Remove Infinites and Inescapable Lockdowns
2. Increase Overall Character Balance
3. Increase Stage Viability

That's not to say those three goals are the only reasons changes should be made, or that changes must fulfill one of the three in order to warrant a change. I was simply pointing out that not every change is strictly for the purpose of depolarizing a matchup or noticeably changing character viability.

Finally, I don't think No Auto-Switch violates any of the main three goals:

1) N/A, of course.

2) I sure hope PT wouldn't be broken by the removal.

3) N/A again.

To state my position- I prefer to have PT Auto-Switch, and also have the option of choosing Pokemon as individual characters. I don't think this project aims to do that, which is fine.

 

[PKNintendo]

Just played Link today.

I gotta say, it's the first time in YEARS since I enjoyed him. (I mained him in Melee)
Link is a MUCH funner character. The arrows are killer now, and his grounded Spin attack actually is worth slightly charging up.

Link is a much more enjoyable character.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

I think we should all be thankful to these guys that are working hard for Balanced Brawl, so if your are going to request or state your opinion on anything, you should be respectful and humble. Don't come in here flaming and demanding. And if you do, you don't really deserved to be heard.

Going on topic, there are some things to think if are we are going to redesign Pokemon trainer:

1) Honestly, I don't really like that pokemon are used in a fixed order. It's too rigid and that does not resemble de Pokemon games.

2) But on the other hand, if you are free to choose any at any moment you are being unfair to a character like Zelda/Sheik. Because you have a free-choose 3 characters in one, with 3 B moves each and Zelda/Sheik are just 2 characters with 3 B moves each. Get my point? Ok.

3)I understand that at BBrawl you don't want to mess up with game mechanics for the transition from vBrawl to be smooth.

4) Pokemon trainer was usually weak not only because pokemons needed some buffs to be good enough, but because you had to be good with all three to succeed.

5) Pokemon change is horrible. If your wii takes time to load the model from the disc. That's the time your enemy has to setup a good attack and you are completely open when you arrive. That makes any pokemon tactic useless if you cannot change your pokemon based on the situation (your damage, your enemy damage, etc). It's usually too risky to change.

So.. how can we find a solution based on this?.. hmm maybe.. I think the mechanics has to change for us to have something that is good for the game.

If we cannot change the fact that models are loaded from the disc and that is slow, then pokemon should not be open when they arrive. But we must also prevent that you can stall the game by switching many times in a row abusing your invulnerability. I think there is not a solution for this unless you can set up a timer for switching.

My Solution is this:
1) As pokemon change is a risky maneuver, you should be able to change in both directions (by holding R or something).
2) Death does not restore a Pokemon's stamina. (Let's of think of it as if he is taken out and is still tired from battle). So if you want to keep on using one pokemon you will have to deal with fatigue. The only way a Pokemon can recover stamina is while another pokemon is fighting.
3) The amount of stamina and recovery factor must be carefully designed based on how much the other 2 pokemons must fight if you want to keep using one pokemon without fatigue. ( I will help on this but I have to go now. I will be thinking about this and come again with a proposal ).
4) When a pokemon is defeated, you are forced to change, so this will also prevent you from just using one pokemon. Still, you can choose which of the other 2 pokemon to use. And you are just one risky pokemon change away from the character you want to use (if that's the case) but you must wait for him to recover his stamina.

Please, let me know what you think about this.

 

[PKNintendo]

I think we should all be thankful to these guys that are working hard for Balanced Brawl, so if your are going to request or state your opinion on anything, you should be respectful and humble. Don't come in here flaming and demanding. And if you do, you don't really deserved to be heard.

Going on topic, there are some things to think if are we are going to redesign Pokemon trainer:

1) Honestly, I don't really like that pokemon are used in a fixed order. It's too rigid and that does not resemble de Pokemon games.

2) But on the other hand, if you are free to choose any at any moment you are being unfair to a character like Zelda/Sheik. Because you have a free-choose 3 characters in one, with 3 B moves each and Zelda/Sheik are just 2 characters with 3 B moves each. Get my point? Ok.

3)I understand that at BBrawl you don't want to mess up with game mechanics for the transition from vBrawl to be smooth.

4) Pokemon trainer was usually weak not only because pokemons needed some buffs to be good enough, but because you had to be good with all three to succeed.

5) Pokemon change is horrible. If your wii takes time to load the model from the disc. That's the time your enemy has to setup a good attack and you are completely open when you arrive. That makes any pokemon tactic useless if you cannot change your pokemon based on the situation (your damage, your enemy damage, etc). It's usually too risky to change.

So.. how can we find a solution based on this?.. hmm maybe.. I think the mechanics has to change for us to have something that is good for the game.

If we cannot change the fact that models are loaded from the disc and that is slow, then pokemon should not be open when they arrive. But we must also prevent that you can stall the game by switching many times in a row abusing your invulnerability. I think there is not a solution for this unless you can set up a timer for switching.

My Solution is this:
1) As pokemon change is a risky maneuver, you should be able to change in both directions (by holding R or something).
2) Death does not restore a Pokemon's stamina. (Let's of think of it as if he is taken out and is still tired from battle). So if you want to keep on using one pokemon you will have to deal with fatigue. The only way a Pokemon can recover stamina is while another pokemon is fighting.
3) The amount of stamina and recovery factor must be carefully designed based on how much the other 2 pokemons must fight if you want to keep using one pokemon without fatigue. ( I will help on this but I have to go now. I will be thinking about this and come again with a proposal ).
4) When a pokemon is defeated, you are forced to change, so this will also prevent you from just using one pokemon. Still, you can choose which of the other 2 pokemon to use. And you are just one risky pokemon change away from the character you want to use (if that's the case) but you must wait for him to recover his stamina.

Please, let me know what you think about this.

I actually think this is a solid idea.
Point 3 could be a tad difficult to enforce though.

 

[THK]

Oh wow, what you guys did to spears pillar and the temple is kinda weird. More so Spear Pillar as when the ground gets broken and you fall through...yeah.

 

[Rudementry]

Ok, all I gotta say is, amazing. I can't wait to trick my friend into playing it and ask to play his pikachu vs my fox or ddd vs my ike (not that my ike is good).

But uh, I had a couple problems. I'm going to assume its just me, but if anyone knows why or what I could do to fix this problem, it would be much appreciated. Let me just say this now, this is the only glitch I have had, everything else has worked flawlessly (I've been playing it for quite some time now). So heres the problem: Whenever I try to load Luigi's Mansion or overground Mushroomy Kingdom, my Wii freezes right at the loading screen. Like I waited 10-20 minutes, it was frozen. Obviously it had something to do with the timing changes, but my wii didn't freeze on Pictochat, Big Blue, or any of the other edited stages. My wii also froze on Luigi's Mansion in Brawl+ so it must not be the code, just my wii. If anyone could help, that would be greatly apreciated.

Other than that, balanced brawl is amazing. I'm a fox main (if you couldn't tell), and at first I was a little skeptical about not improving fox whatsoever (that +1% on the side b is a joke lol), but once I started playing it felt great. Losing those flat-out unbeatable matchups really changed the game for me. I also was a little worried about the ceiling changes but it didn't affect me hardly at all (well, except the one on mushroomy kingdom because I couldn't test it due to my wii freezing). Anyway, great job guys, can't wait til this kind've stuff gets released for unhacked wiis.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

No, that's not timing changes. Those specific freezes happen because you somehow got corrupted My Music (very common issue in hacking in general way back). You need to reset the music on those stages. You can find the codes to rest the music on those stages here:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5634130&postcount=48

Boot your Wii with just those two codes on, verify you can open My Music for those stages without crashing (do note the sliders will be stuck in the middle position), turn off the Wii, and reload the codeset you want to use. These stages should work fine again, assuming you don't load any codes that corrupt My Music again (Bbrawl shouldn't; as I recall, the most common case for this corruption is loading Giga Bowser as a normal character).

 

[Linkshot]

Giga Bowser demands his own theme song XDD And not just some remix.

 

[Steeler]

Morpheus's proposal is interesting but i think a simpler way of enabling that is to simply allow for pokemon switch in respawn invincibility.

i'm glad that the auto switch thing has died down. it's a terrible idea and ruins the concept of PT more than any other suggestion i've seen. lol.

 

[Linkshot]

How about no lag when the Pokemon appears so you can attack on Frame 1? >.>

 

[Thinkaman]

For the sake of simply discussing what is possible, I think we can make them able to act on frame 2, but not frame 1.

 

[Linkshot]

Feasible. That would definitely make switching safer.

 

[MK26]

that would make switching too safe...

 

[Ussi]

one thing that is right is that switching was never always safe even in pokemon.

Its like having a PvP battle with the option at "set" (The one that lets you switch before the foe sends out his pokemon)

 

[Steeler]

if we were to change the frame data on the move, you could add lag BEFORE the switch and take the lag out from after the switch so it's still pretty safe, but not if you do it repeatedly.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

yeah what steeler said? i guess? i dunno anything about pokemon trainer but making ikes quickdraw better would make steeler happy that's for sure... =) seriously though when i get back home i'm tryin this **** out and let you on a few details on ike and not just ike thinkaman.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Yeap. that is the thing.. if you can keep switching and stall the game.. is not good game design...

If you can act within a couple of frames, that could make it more difficult for someone to punish you.

I think pokemon should have invencibility and an attack when they arrive as when you stand up from a trip. Or make them arrive in the sit animation soy they can roll or stand up and attack. That could work and it shouldn't be difficult to code.

I still don't like the fact that you have a fixed order. That is too silly. That's why I suggest stamina is not restored when a pokemon is taken out and that you are allowed to change both ways.

The fact that you can use 3 pokemon is both a gift and a curse. The gift is that you can change based on situation or matchup. The curse is that you are forced to use both 2 or 3 at some point. The way the mechanic is, the gift is almost futile and the curse is heavy. With such a risky pokemon change and the fact that order is fixed. You get more from the curse than from the gift. You may select a pokemon to start the match, but after that you loose control of pokemon change. It's hard to find a chance to change, and you have that silly fixed order... then in the end you have to be good with all 3 in any match up or situation and don't get the tactical benefit... not good at all.

Both the gift and the curse must exist (as Zelda and Sheik curses are that they have one less B move than the others) but we should empower the gift and/or reduce the curse somehow.

The spirit of Pokemon trainer is using 2 or the 3 somehow tactically (the gift)and you have to accept that you are forced to use 2 or 3 (the curse). So, if you are interested in using only one (I like Charizard a lot but if I am to use him I am forced to use the other two too. That is not good) then we should copy what they did on Brawl+ and have wild Pokemon versions. Although I think those version should be given something with Down B (that should be hard to code and it could be added later or not added at all).

 

[Thinkaman]

Just so everyone has the facts...

-It's possible to have Pokemon entrances take 1 (or more) frame (vulnerable), though not zero.
-It's not possible to have the pokemon come out on the ground; I jsut tried.
-Pokemon cannot down-b again until the switch "flash" is gone. They can down-b, spot-dodge, down-b. Obviously they cannot down-b out of shield.

 

[GwJ]

Question: I'm not a PT main or really know much at all about them, but I know that you can instantly do anything out of a switch if you do it on the edge of a platform moving away from where you DI to, is there a way to implement that effect grounded?

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Yeap. that is the thing.. if you can keep switching and stall the game.. it is not good game design...

If you can act within a couple of frames, that could make it more difficult for someone to punish you.

I think pokemon should have invencibility and an attack when they arrive as when you stand up from a trip. Or make them arrive in the sit animation so they can roll or stand up and attack. That could work and it shouldn't be difficult to code.

I still don't like the fact that you have a fixed order. Risky or not it's silly that you have to get 2 pokemon changes sometimes to go to the pokemon you want at the moment. That's why I suggest stamina is not restored when a pokemon is taken out and that you can switch both ways.

The fact that you can use 3 pokemon is both a gift and a curse. The gift is that you can change based on situation or matchup. The curse is that you are forced to use the other one or two at some point. The way the mechanic is, the gift is almost futile. With such a risky pokemon change and the fact that order is fixed. You get more from the curse than from the gift. You may select a pokemon to start the match, but after that you loose control of pokemon change. It's hard to find a chance to change, and you have that silly fixed order. So in the end you have to be good with all 3 pokemons in any situation or matchup and do not get the tactical benefit... not good at all.

The gift and the curse must exist but we can empower the gift and reduce the curse somehow.

The spirit of Pokemon trainer is using 2 or the 3 somehow tactically (the gift)and you have to accept that you are forced to use 2 or 3 (curse). So, if you are interested in using only one (I like Charizard a lot but if I am to use him I am forced to use the other two too. That is not good) then we should copy what they did on Brawl+ and have wild Pokemon versions. Although I think those version should be given something with Down B (that should be hard to code and it could be added later or not added at all).

 

[Linkshot]

Pretty sure they can't add hitboxes. I'd suggest, at max, 3 frames of vulnerability. It's very predictable and it's not exactly "punishment" for switching; it's your opponent taking advantage of a small opening. If they fail the timing, you can punish them.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

How many frames of vulnerability are in vBrawl?

 

[RoundaboutCircle]

long time lurker, first time poster here. i have been reading your discussion on PT and i am not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but what about removing the stamina time for a stamina notch, per se. for example, you can use Squirtle until you lose a stock. when you respawn, i like the idea of picking a Pokemon maybe through directional input via the control stick. up for Squirtle, sides for Ivysaur, and down for Charizard. i don't know how codable this is so i have no idea if this viable. if you pick the Pokemon you used previously, Squirtle in this example, then he reaches his tired state. like using a Revive in Pokemon or a Pheonix Down in FF. your character is not 100% when they come back to life in those games, so why not keep it the same for BBrawl?

i can see some problems with this already... but a solution could be having the tired Pokemon recover after 30 seconds or so? neither of these Pokemon are good at planking from what i can tell, so why not have them come back weaker at the expense of staying as the same character?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

PT is never going to be split up or in any way made so you can only use one. This is not up for compromise; we're not ruining the most unique character in Brawl. If you don't like Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard, Pokemon Trainer is just not for you.

I think the "curse" aspect is really overstated though. It's so easy to play standard Brawl and say that, but looking at Bbrawl, it just seems so different since Ivysaur is just really that much better (Ivysaur is definitely my favorite in Bbrawl and definitely not a handicap to the team at all). That's a lot of my concern about buffing PT much as well. Honestly, while PT is definitely the hardest to learn character (learn three times as much as everyone else!), I see him as a top character once he overcomes that initial difficulty, one of the game's elite. He can play his system intelligently to avoid bad matchups and bad stages, and his component parts are really very solid in the first place. Buffing him more wouldn't make him broken probably, but out standard is "balanced" and not "not broken" so you have to keep that in mind.

 

[Thinkaman]

Tonight in human playtesting I will be testing PT with 1.5x speed initial switch, and 4x speed post switch. I will also be testing with 1.5x speed initial switch for Sheik and Zelda. (No post-switch change.)

We are actively investigating our options and the impact they will have.

 

[Linkshot]

PT has to beat the Elite Four before he can become the Master :O (just who those 4 are will be the mystery...)

EDIT: I'd like to see how that transformation turns out.

 

[hankydysplasia]

All this discussion about justifying decisions based on the goals of the project just made me think about Luigi's dash attack for a bit. The core character of Luigi is sort of a goof ball with hilarious taunts and some silly attacks like the dash attack. I know the fireballs were needed to depolarize matchups that involved camping opponents, but I think I missed why he needed the dash attack - which looks really glitchy and gets rid of one of his signature goofy moves.

I don't play Luigi, but I'm still sampling all the changes and besides not liking the new glitchy-looking throws (which I know get rid of infinites) I think this is one of the more unnecessary moves. Just a question...

 

[MorpheusVGX]

But why do you think that he is ruined if they are split? You can still have the option to use Pokemon Trainer. If you want to use them together, you get the gift and the curse. If you just like to use one of them, you don't get the gift and curse. If you think no one will use Pokemon trainer if you have wild pokemon versions then that means the curse is heavier than the gift so no one want it that way. There are people who use only Sheik or Zelda even when they should be used together. There those who just use Samus or ZSamus. Why not let someone who just feel comfortable with , let's say, Charizard, use him alone? Why is he forced to take the gift and curse of having to learn other 2 characters he doesn't like? He even lose a B move, but if he wants to use him that way.. why not? It's not broken. It's and option. As I say before, if Pk Trainer is ruined and no one use it anymore is because the benefits of being 3 are poor compared to the disadvantages (something I am afraid is happenning with the current system).

 

[Thinkaman]

All this discussion about justifying decisions based on the goals of the project just made me think about Luigi's dash attack for a bit. The core character of Luigi is sort of a goof ball with hilarious taunts and some silly attacks like the dash attack. I know the fireballs were needed to depolarize matchups that involved camping opponents, but I think I missed why he needed the dash attack - which looks really glitchy and gets rid of one of his signature goofy moves.

I don't play Luigi, but I'm still sampling all the changes and besides not liking the new glitchy-looking throws (which I know get rid of infinites) I think this is one of the more unnecessary moves. Just a question...

Well, the wonky throws are about to be gone. We are testing authentic throw changes now, and things look great.

As for Luigi's dash attack, I'm not sure I understand your complaint. It fits Luigi like a glove, because the slipping animation on the victim makes it look even MORE goofy! The gameplay reason for it though, was to cover that same weakness as the fireball speed buff: Luigi has poor approach. Dash attacks may only be good for approaching as punishment, but that's STILL better than what Luigi had. Since shielding always interrupted it, there was genuinely no use for that move, crippling Luigi's ability to get punishments in. (Of course, he is fine at punishing close...)

 

[hankydysplasia]

Well, the wonky throws are about to be gone. We are testing authentic throw changes now, and things look great.

As for Luigi's dash attack, I'm not sure I understand your complaint. It fits Luigi like a glove, because the slipping animation on the victim makes it look even MORE goofy! The gameplay reason for it though, was to cover that same weakness as the fireball speed buff: Luigi has poor approach. Dash attacks may only be good for approaching as punishment, but that's STILL better than what Luigi had. Since shielding always interrupted it, there was genuinely no use for that move, crippling Luigi's ability to get punishments in. (Of course, he is fine at punishing close...)

Thanks for the reply.

I'm really excited for Falco to have more normal looking throws. I commend you, AA, and PK for working together to get a common understanding. For a while there I thought there was going to be a serious problem. I'm glad everyone could be reasonable.

As for the dash, there's a difference between goofy and glitchy, and I would argue it looks more glitchy than goofy. The move with no purpose and his arms flailing is goofy. The move causing trips which appear to skip frames as the character reappears up and down is glitchy. Also, I didn't think moves with no use were a problem, according to this project. Lots of characters have them. I obviously didn't playtest this before, but was faster fireballs not enough? It seems like a pretty big boost.

 

[Linkshot]

I still think Squirtle, Ivy, and Zard should not be individual entities, but instead factors of Pokemon Trainer.

Sure, you like Charizard, but despise Squirtle. Sadly, Charizard is not a fighter in this game; Pokemon Trainer is. He just happens to have Charizard.

 

[TreK]

Thanks for the reply.

I'm really excited for Falco to have more normal looking throws. I commend you, AA, and PK for working together to get a common understanding. For a while there I thought there was going to be a serious problem. I'm glad everyone could be reasonable.

As for the dash, there's a difference between goofy and glitchy, and I would argue it looks more glitchy than goofy. The move with no purpose and his arms flailing is goofy. The move causing trips which appear to skip frames as the character reappears up and down is glitchy. Also, I didn't think moves with no use were a problem, according to this project. Lots of characters have them. I obviously didn't playtest this before, but was faster fireballs not enough? It seems like a pretty big boost.

Fireball is now decent against camping oponents
Dash attack is now decent against people with longer aerial range.
That's just what Luigi needed =)

He still has no defensive game and sucks at recovering, it's not like he's broken now

As for the glitchyness, idk, I love it xD