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Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*

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Shell

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zxeon, drop it, please.

If you didn't see the notice in the Competitive Brawl+ thread, we've worked out our mutual misunderstanding. PK agreed to share all of his future work and AA agreed to a crediting standard.

Asking for credit to Brawl+ for requesting codes is silly. The work that goes into requesting something is negligible compared to the actual work of coding something. Brawl+ needs no mention in this thread, especially as it will only spread flames. I will be watching this thread closely to report flamebait between Brawl+ and BBrawl.

Edit: Ninja'd.... I'm a slow poster.
 
D

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you can't talk that way about them anywhere in the workshop, and you better watch your steps in the IRC too.
 

Blank Mauser

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Please don't respond to Zxeon's trolling. Under Zxeon's logic we should be crediting BBrawl as well, and frankly these are formalities that both sides agree don't need to be enforced, and especially not with the attitude Zxeon is having.
 

ffdgh

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woot for a neutral agreement and understanding.

lol thx peeps for being mature about the situation.
 

PKNintendo

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I've got to say, playing B Brawl has really been a blast.

I can actually fully appreciate most (if not all) of the buffs each character has received.
Take Luigi for example, his new buff has made him one of my mains now.


PS: Wario's new pummel animation and Zelda's jab effect are nice touches.


Edit: I simple question my good friend.

Please see the next section for more details on changes to certain chain-grabs. Also, note that Ice Climber infinites have NOT been removed. We do not currently have the ability to change any Ice Climbers throws, so it is impossible at this time.
Why nerf them? Since the CG is attributed to the fact there are 2 climbers, shouldn't we keep them the same?
 

Linkshot

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Except the chaingrab is also attributed to a dial-a-win. The obvious solution is to prevent the chaingrabs but buff damage on the throws, as well as buff the rest of their moveset so their entire metagame isn't centralised around landing a grab.

EDIT: Actually, changing their metagame is not the goal x.x Sorry. Either: IC's infinite stays in, but the throws and pummels do 1% each, or the infinite is removed and throws do over 13% per.
 

adumbrodeus

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I think probably the goal should be that ICs maintain a 0-death under the same conditions, but lose the infinite, because infinites are just bad programming.
 

PKNintendo

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I see.

I have a few questions. How is B Brawl doing in terms of tourneys? Is it popular?
 

PKNintendo

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Okay question number two.

I believe 1000 hours were put into this. (Thats insane)
Besides Thinkaman , AA and ffdgh. Who else is in charge with the balance?
 

Rion

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One thing about Zelda's UpB Farore's Wind.

I know it says that it's supposed to combo into Utilt or Usmash but :x the ending lag is just too high to do any sort of follow up after words. Though with the inherent nature of the move, I suppose it's understandable.

Oh Lord, Brawl+ Farore's Wind has spoiled me a little. I don't know if this is on your list of stuff to tweak but... is there any way to make Zelda's UpB any faster? Her recovery has always been a huge disadvantage. To the point where it just gets silly. Once you get Zelda off stage, chances are she's staying off if the opponent knows how her recovery works.

But this is merely a suggestion! I hope it warrants some looking at.
 

Steeler

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well AA and thinkaman are 'in charge' of the balance and implementing codes and such. but lots of people have had a say by providing feedback.

i am extremely pleased that everything has been settled between bbrawl and plus. i look forward to the two projects coexisting to give brawlers options in what they want to play. =] i'm glad not everyone is like zxeon!
 

Mr. Escalator

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I would just like to add on to steelers post and note that ffdgh is not "in charge" of balance. Only Thinkaman and AA are the 'leaders' of this project. They get feedback from all of us, as well as suggestions. Feedback is crucial in making this work out, so please help in that way <3
 

xDD-Master

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A question:

What are all the effects you can add to an attack ??? (Flower, Dark Aura, Fire, Electricity, Poison...)

A list would be cool to talk about characters in the future.


Some thoughts:
Ivy - Flower
Ganon - More Dark Aura (Just for the coolness :D)
Pikachu - More Electricity
Bowser - More Fire
White Pikmin - Poison Effect on more Attacks

etc etc.
Just quote this again cause I didnt get an answer :)
 

Ryusuta

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I want to know which one of the creators decided that he wants the stamina and switching to remain the same on Pokemon Trainer. I have some serious chewing-out to do.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
XX
00 hit normal hit
01 none all none are not working
02 slash
03 electricity
04 Ice
05 Flame
06 Coin
07 Cape yes the tuning effect
08 Slip tripping
09 Sleep
0A none
0B impale DK side B
0C Stun deku nut
0E Flower
0F none actually gives hitstun, used in some B+ moves
10 none
11 slash 2
12 hit 2
13 Darkness
14 Stun
15 Aura only the blue effect, no scaling
16 Impale 2
17 Down snake Dthrow
18 No Flinch fox laser
 

Ryusuta

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It's a part of Brawl. We are not messing with the core of Brawl.
I call bull****. Tripping and Ike's Quick Draw going into recovery animation are a part of Brawl, too.

If we were keeping stuff because it was part of Brawl, we wouldn't be hacking it in the first place.
 

Eyada

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I believe they are retaining it for two reasons:

1.) This project aims to change at little as possible. If Stamina and Forced Switch do not make PT non-viable or if they do not cause polarization of match-ups, then they don't need to be removed.

2.) It is part of Pokemon Trainer's core character concept. This project aims to not dilute or change core character concepts where possible.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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I call bull****. Tripping and Ike's Quick Draw going into recovery animation are a part of Brawl, too.

If we were keeping stuff because it was part of Brawl, we wouldn't be hacking it in the first place.
We want to maintain the original ideas behind characters as much as possible. While we want to remove things like King Dedede's nature of "chaingrabs a lot breaking a lot of situations" or Ice Climbers "we do infinites" that are just blatantly bad for the game, we do want to preserve things that aren't so bad. Honestly, PT stamina is like that. Basically, the PT has an inherent and huge advantage. He's three characters. People don't tend to think of this, but having in-built switching mechanics is a really big advantage. You can avoid bad matchups a lot better by switching away from them, and you refresh all stale moves when you change characters. With just two (Zelda & Sheik), it's already a really, really big advantage that has to be handled very delicately lest they work in tandem to just be blatantly broken. With three of them who are all individually quality? PT would just be broken, almost unavoidably. You learn to play all three and just use whichever one is best in any given matchup. Given how different they are, that would probably give you an advantage in almost every matchup and make PT far and away the best character in the game. Rather than just making the individual Pokemon quite poor compared to other characters (with that strategy being nearly impossible to actually produce a character that isn't either way overpowered or really bad), leaving in an artificially restricting system to force you to use all three in every battle seems like a far better choice, and it is the original design concept at work here. PT is about teamwork, and I don't see that we should defy his team concept when it was never his problem. His problem was that his team was really inconsistent in quality, and we have addressed that (Ivysaur is awesome now, and Charizard saw buffs too).
 

Shell

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If you're worried about balance, we've had no stamina on PT in Brawl+ for at least half a year or more now and no one has swept the scene with an unstoppable PT, for whatever that's worth. In fact, I don't think we've ever received a single complaint PT was overpowered, although Squirtle himself did need a few nerfs.
 

Ryusuta

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We want to maintain the original ideas behind characters as much as possible. While we want to remove things like King Dedede's nature of "chaingrabs a lot breaking a lot of situations" or Ice Climbers "we do infinites" that are just blatantly bad for the game, we do want to preserve things that aren't so bad. Honestly, PT stamina is like that. Basically, the PT has an inherent and huge advantage. He's three characters. People don't tend to think of this, but having in-built switching mechanics is a really big advantage.
No, it's not a big advantage. I'd go as far as to say it's hardly an advantage at all.

Think about this for a second. Zelda has been able to switch from one character to the other since Melee. Now how many Zelda mains off the top of your head that play seriously in tournaments use her ability to switch regularly?

Even MORE so in Melee! Melee had 6,000,000 tournament Sheik players. Unless they quick changed for recovery purposes, though, you NEVER saw Zelda anywhere in a Sheik fight.

If one character is inherently better for a match-up than another, why would I want to use the other? Because the option is available? Just because the option is available, does that suddenly mean it should be FORCED on me?

And getting back to Melee, Zelda could realistically switch to Sheik without being punished and vice versa. In Brawl, Pokemon Trainer can't optimize a bad match-up without leaving himself open. You can knock them away and switch, but God help you if you're in a low-damage part of the game. You're S.O.L.

IN THEORY, Pokemon Trainer's switching makes sense. But since when does ANYTHING Nintendo likes in theory make sense in application?

The bottom line is: there was never a good reason to force you to use one character when you want to use another. No other character is forced to do that, and Trainer shouldn't be, either.

With three of them who are all individually quality? PT would just be broken, almost unavoidably.
Please tell me you're kidding. Look at Brawl+ and tell me just how "broken" the individual PT Pokemon are, being able to function by themselves. With respect, this is really an absurd argument.

Even if all three of them were theoretically top tier, they'd all have relatively bad match-ups at times, and therefore reasons not to use them. If I want to play Charizard in a match-up, there's no reason that I should have to play Squirtle afterwards. That'd be like someone that wants to use DeDeDe in a match-up being suddenly forced to Wolf mid-match. Sure, Wolf is a fine character by himself, but they want to use DeDeDe!

You learn to play all three and just use whichever one is best in any given matchup.
In theory, you learn every character in the game so you're always prepared for a match-up. But that doesn't resolve the crux of the argument: if I want to use one character, I shouldn't be forced to use another.

leaving in an artificially restricting system to force you to use all three in every battle seems like a far better choice, and it is the original design concept at work here.
Again with this original concept design! Throw that argument out the window. NINTENDO'S ORIGINAL CONCEPT IS STUPID! IT WAS NEVER A GOOD IDEA! STICKING WITH A STUPID IDEA BECAUSE IT'S THE WAY IT'S INTENDED MAKES NO SENSE.

PT is about teamwork, and I don't see that we should defy his team concept when it was never his problem. His problem was that his team was really inconsistent in quality, and we have addressed that (Ivysaur is awesome now, and Charizard saw buffs too).
Many PT players would argue that Charizard was the best of the three in the first place (it's a toss-up between him and Squirtle), but that's as may be.

The point is that if I want to use a specific Pokemon for a specific character on a specific stage, I'll pick that Pokemon before the match begins. About the only real use PT users get out of switching is stock tanking with a heavy character, and even that tends to be a last-ditch effort rather than a grand strategy.

Stamina and auto-switch should be done away with.
 

Linkshot

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This is PT's concept, however. Regardless of your opinion, we are not changing how Brawl works, we are only modifying BKB, KBG, damage, angle, and the occasional element/timing to bring everybody closer together in terms of viability.
 

Ryusuta

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This is PT's concept, however. Regardless of your opinion, we are not changing how Brawl works, we are only modifying BKB, KBG, damage, angle, and the occasional element/timing to bring everybody closer together in terms of viability.
Do you hear the double-standard?

In other words, you don't change the way a character/stage/system works unless you do.
 

Linkshot

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We're not changing the way the system works (except for random tripping). That's all. PT's Stamina is part of the system.

I'm just going to leave this to the leaders so I don't mess up x.x

EDIT: I should stop feeding trolls >.<
 

zxeon

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Stamina is really just a handicap on PT just like Lucario's aura stock.

If you won't change either of those you have to give them something to compensate for that competitive defect that is solely character based. It's not a foundation issue it's a character issue.
 

Ryusuta

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We're not changing the way the system works (except for random tripping).
There. Right there. You invalidated your own argument. Everything after this point is a double-standard. You admit to changing the system in some cases, but not others.

I should stop feeding trolls >.<
WHEN WILL PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET REALIZE THAT SOMEONE ISN'T A ****ING TROLL JUST BECAUSE THEY HAVE A DIFFERENT OPINION!?

I'm am getting ****ing sick of people that don't have an argument to make justifying their lack of participation in the discussion by saying they're not feeding trolls.

If you don't have anything to say, fine. Who needs you. I'll be over here actually addressing the point.

If you won't change either of those you have to give them something to compensate for that competitive defect that is solely character based. It's not a foundation issue it's a character issue.
It's both. The characters individually needed the tweaks they got, and the system they have in place doesn't make sense, either. Both changes should be made.
 

Revven

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Really, I look at stamina as another form of stale moves except on PT, so it's like they get DOUBLE the stale moves as the match goes on. Taking away stamina wouldn't hurt the game, it wouldn't suddenly make PT top tier. In fact, I'd argue that stamina hurts the switching system more than it does help it as when you know you're tired and you NEED to switch, you can barely knock the opponent offstage to give yourself enough time and space to switch, especially when you're Ivysaur WHO HAS BARELY ANY OPTIONS TO KNOCK PEOPLE OFFSTAGE: Fsmash is too slow, Ftilt doesn't send anywhere, the only throw that sends people anywhere is Bthrow and at high %s + tiredness the opponent is going to barely go anywhere, thus if Ivy tries to switch to Zard likely he will get hit anyhow. That's hurting the switch system put in place, at least for Ivysaur thus makes the person rely on dying to switch which is ******** to begin with.

Just wanted to chime that in.

Edit: Speaking of double standards, it's the same thing with the Triple Jump Glitch. Although you guys are considering to take the glitch out with the available code, it still is a double standard to take tripping out but not a GLITCH, which HURTS and LIMITS characters coming back ONTO the stage.

P.S I am not mad, caps = emphasizing
 

Steeler

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no

auto switch is really good and useful

stamina is not a big deal usually if you aren't playing a douchebag or a sonic or something but i'm sure the vast majority of PT players would rather this be removed instead because it encourages the opponent to use stupid stalling tactics. even just removing the timer but not the -1 second per attack would be perfectly fine with me. because then the matter wouldn't be in the opponent's hands.

honestly just having the individual pokemon codes in force would be a good "compromise" (not that a compromise is necessary or anything) but whatever. because PT would still have the same benefits of having 3 characters and such and the same disadvantages of stamina, switching limitations, etc. and then you'd have three "new" entities to play with. PT would be unchanged. blah blah blah. the codes already exist and are easily implementable, if a majority of players want to play with them then that's their deal.

if there were to be a change to switching, i'd only like a change where PT could switch during respawn invincibility. sheik and zelda can do this so, for example, a sheik main can focus on only using zelda for a kill and then switching immediately after death to avoid using zelda when they don't want to. it really adds a lot to their teamwork aspect. it would add some strategy to PT in a variety of ways aside from what most people would perceive to be a free "HEY i don't have to use *pokemon* ever again!!"

often, PT pros will switch pokemon out immediately and take the hit anyway. the difference is whether you think PT should have to suffer that hit or not, imo. i argue that not having to take that hit (or try to get a grab or smash off to knock them away and switch, while often taking damage anyway in the process) would be a pretty interesting buff. thinkaman mentioned early on in this thread that he felt that he'd be perfectly fine if PT and z/s ended up the two best characters in the game since their players have the distinct disadvantage of having to learn multiple characters at a highly proficient level (which gives them an advantage in terms of counterpicking and whatever, as AA mentioned). i think that's a pretty interesting thought and makes sense. why master two or three characters who, combined, are worse than a single character?

i know it's unlikely that AA and TM implement this code or try to (it probably doesn't exist) right now but i think it'd be a very good thing to look into if feedback showed that PT still needed a little help.

honestly either this or removing/slightly editing stamina (so there is no timer but attacks still affect it) are the only changes i can think of that should be considered to changing to pt's mechanics.

never ever even consider removing only auto switch on PT, auto switch is a very good and necessary thing that enforces the teamwork aspect, and pretty much necessitates changing stamina as well (which would basically mean solo Pokemon or the possibility of such a thing, which is fine, as long as you also remove the ability to switch entirely so you don't have the benefit of counterpicking at your whim)
 

Swordplay

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Do you hear the double-standard?

In other words, you don't change the way a character/stage/system works unless you do.

Hacking in itself is practically a double standard because you have to draw a line somewhere......Thus where you draw that line will be highly opinion based.

No matter how sickening this is, that's just the way it is and if you don't like it don't hack. For you, this would be my recommendation as it seems you are can't be pleased by this project.

Or.....perhaps you should create a project of your own with your standards and reasoning...........

In summery, your completely right in your reasoning but it's near impossible to take opinions and double standards out of the process.
 
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