At long last, Presenting GSH2, a Brawl+ Nightly Test Set and Discussion Topic

[TLMSheikant]

^ Pikapika imo. But not really lol. I dont think there's any "broken" character.

 

[Swordplay]

When I was playing matt4300 yesterday with his bowser vs my yoshi, we both came to a mutual understanding that yoshi has a few WTF 2 GUD aspects about him.

The fact that Yoshi lives really long, has a great approach and combo game, and eggs were like wtf.


I support this change.


The only other character that seems to really wreck people is ganon. I picked him up and I was like wow, ganon is like freakin good. I started to play other people and it became apparent that a few of my friends thought the same. I couldn't put my finger on it at first but after talking to my friends I began to understand. I mean I love ganon as much as the next but do you think we went a little far. Crazy combos and super powerful. B+ has become more and more about teching and tech chasing which means that the game is more and more catering to what ganon excels at. He is not that slow anymore either and with buffed moves like wiztruck, priority isn't as much of an issue as we initiall thought. TO TOP IT ALL OFF. We really have weakened spam games like falco's and which were the prime counters to ganon. (I agree with the changes as they shut him down but its just a thought I Had in my mind) I really think Ganon is another character that needs another look. But that is just my opinion. I have ideas but I'll hold off until I hear what you all have to say.


I mean you can say I suck but I say its tedious to fight a ganondorf and I don't like it. Its risky to get in close or he will **** you. The entire match is deeply focused on spacing and timing to avoid getting punished. Its a passive style at times and I don't like to play passive 100%. For the same reasons, I suck against bowser as well. But thats just my experience and my fault for a lack of patience at times.

 

[Daakun]

I still say Zelda is pretty up there.
Lots of characters simply cannot approach her, her recovery can't be edgeguarded without predicting if she's going to the ledge or the stage, Din's fire is just too spammable for the knockback, size, and control it has.

Edit: And about Yoshi living so long; maybe nerf his super armour on that jump to something more like Bowser's crouch.
A weak tap isn't going to doom him, but a Ganondorf dair sure will. >_>

 

[TLMSheikant]

Neither Zelda and Ganon are that good in +. Maybe ganon, but zelda definetely not.

 

[Deleted member]

I just wanna come in here and thank whoever nerfed Kirby. His b-air and f-smash feel way more justified and no more broken throw-combos makes me sing.

 

[Alphatron]

Bowser definitely isn't top, but holy crap is he a moving fortress now.

No confirmation on who's top in this set. Since I can't post on the irc from the wii, I have absolutely no one decent to play with in this game. Ever. I've asked for wifi battles on both here and gamefaqs and got nowhere.

 

[darksamus77]

Bowser's become a very good character. I can own with him very easily, and he was my first main in Melee, so I've mastered him. Thanks Brawl+ for making Bowser great again...

 

[TLMSheikant]

Btw, I havent been able to play gsh2 much. I heard some rumors of a mk nair change...can anyone tell me if its true? And if it is what is it? I had a lot of fun in gsh1 and rc1 with nair combos offstage XD I hope they arent gone .

 

[GP&B]

Btw, I havent been able to play gsh2 much. I heard some rumors of a mk nair change...can anyone tell me if its true? And if it is what is it? I had a lot of fun in gsh1 and rc1 with nair combos offstage XD I hope they arent gone .

There was a nerf to Nair. As to what, I forgot. You can probably search around this topic for it though. Might've been knockback, sweetspot, or something...

Also, I got the mod almost fully working. Samus' bombs blow up on contact and several other things. However, I still feel like the momentum engine isn't working. It's a code so I'd have no idea why it wouldn't work. I've downloaded and redownloaded that text file several times and created several .gcts. I'm still not sure why momentum isn't working.
At least, I'm pretty sure it isn't working. Dash jumps with Falcon aren't going anywhere and Zero Link's Air Dash -> Aerial stops short. Everything else is working perfect fine (as far as I know).

 

[KOkingpin]

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/brawl-plus-test

There is no sound so thats not a big deal everyone check it out

This is a House of Smash Monthly smashfest

 

[zxeon]

Can we get a real changelist?

 

[Isatis]

**** changelists. Go learn your character.

If this was a new game you would have to anyway. Stop assuming **** works (thats the RC1 mindset) and go learn to actually play your character.

Very few changes are major, most of them are just minor tweaks to moves to make them work properly or make them more useful or less broken. The game overall has just been cleaned up since GSH1.

Changelists just lead to people doing things like "That didnt need nerfed" and write a 30 page essay on it before they ever try it, and lo and behold in the end....its a buff.

Has happened at least twice in the backroom alone and I just plain hate it. Remove your biases by reading a changelist and go make your own opinions and assumptions from gameplay. Thats how tourney games should be, and thats what determines who the best player is. The Ness boards is actually the perfect example: Keep asking for buffs since the changelist barely says anything and you get a completely broken character.

Go by feel, not by paper.

<!-- Triangle. -->

 

[Deleted member]

So that's why there's no changelist. That's actually friggen genius.

 

[CloneHat]

So the quote above was implying not even the BRoom was given a changelist either? This is pretty strange, IMO.

Shouldn't changes be made BY the public, FOR the public? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it kind of sounds like there were no major changes, so there was one small group of people who "decided what was right."

Not trying to make anyone angry here, but this doesn't sound right to me.

 

[[TSON]]

The problem with not having a changelist is the fact that there was an agreement in the past to always release one. It had something to do with coders and credit IIRC, but I could be wrong. I know that there was an agreement though.

Other than that, the lack of a changelist creates unneeded confusion. I'd say if you wanted it like that then say "I'll release the changelist after X amount of weeks for the metagame to progress while you are waiting."

 

[_Phloat_]

A changelist was not kept while it was coded.

 

[CloneHat]

A changelist was not kept while it was coded.

You know this, how?

If this is true, I'm sorry to say, it's kind of disgraceful.

 

[kr3wman]

I think he read the thread you're posting in.

Just a feeling. I too think no changelist is pretty stupid, but I can see Cape's pov anyway, and I understand what he's trying to do without making one.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

Upon further examination of Sheik's D-air, a change probably isn't necessary. The whole thing was proposed as a defense against air juggled, but considering it has so little support here, probably not an issue.

 

[Shadic]

You know this, how?

If this is true, I'm sorry to say, it's kind of disgraceful.

It was said in this very thread.

Cape has a general idea of what was changed, and it's not like we can't just look at the character .pacs.

Although it's been a bit, so a changelist would be nice. I think one should be coming with the next update?

 

[GP&B]

Also, I got the mod almost fully working. Samus' bombs blow up on contact and several other things. However, I still feel like the momentum engine isn't working. It's a code so I'd have no idea why it wouldn't work. I've downloaded and redownloaded that text file several times and created several .gcts. I'm still not sure why momentum isn't working.
At least, I'm pretty sure it isn't working. Dash jumps with Falcon aren't going anywhere and Zero Link's Air Dash -> Aerial stops short. Everything else is working perfect fine (as far as I know).

Reposting.

 

[Veril]

When the official comes out there will be a changelist FROM vBrawl, not from RC1. It might not be released immediately, depending on how soon the official is ready, but it won't be withheld like the changelist for the Betas.

Also, I'll be cranking out frame data and such for everyone, notably the things you wouldn't be able to just look up easily in PSA. Speaking of which... Here's the SH and FH frame data (still working on FF times) that will be in the official set when it is released (yeah son!).

Manually tested in frame advance.

[Size="4"]Jump Data:[/SIZE]
Char    jump --- SH ----------- FH
----- startup lands-on airtime  lands-on airtime
Bowser	7	35	27	61	53
CF	4	36	31	57	52
Zard	5	42	36	61	55
DDD	5	46	40	65	59
dK	4	43	38	68	63
DK	5	42	36	69	63
Falco	5	33	27	64	58
Fox	4	28	23	46	41
GW	4	43	38	63	58
Ganon	6	38	31	56	49
IC	4	39	34	75	70
Ike	5	42	36	62	56
Ivy	4	46	41	65	60
JP	5	48	42	64	58
Kirby	4	46	41	65	60
Link	6	40	33	58	51
Lucario	4	48	43	73	68
Lucas	4	37	32	59	54
Luigi	4	53	48	84	79
Mario	5	40	34	63	57
Marth	4	45	40	63	58
MK	4	38	33	60	55
Ness	4	44	39	67	62
Olimar	4	52	47	76	71
Peach	4	44	39	69	64
Pikachu	4	45	40	65	60
Pit	4	44	39	64	59
Rob	4	50	45	74	69
Samus	4	49	44	82	77
Sheik	4	35	30	55	50
Snake	7	42	34	55	47
Sonic	4	42	37	62	57
Squirt	4	38	33	68	63
TL	4	49	44	70	65
Wario	5	44	38	63	57
Wolf	4	34	29	50	45
Yoshi	5	52	46	74	68
Zelda	5	45	39	74	68
ZSS	4	45	40	75	70

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Why do Bowser and Snake have such laggy jump startup (relative to everyone else) ?

 

[VietGeek]

Although it's been a bit, so a changelist would be nice. I think one should be coming with the next update?

i have dreams to accomplish ;_;

 

[Magus420]

I don't know how/why you're coming up with 5 for Mario and ROB, but they should definitely be 4.

 

[CT Chia]

When the official comes out

when will this be

 

[Shadic]

i have dreams to accomplish ;_;

You are so, so confusing.

THIS JUST IN: VIETGEEK = MYSTERIOUS ENIGMA WRAPPED IN INTRIGUE. (And poetry)

 

[Veril]

Thanks Magus, fixed Rob. Mario actually has a 5 frame jump startup however. Seriously. I don't know what more to say on the matter.

@Viet: I feel that.

@Chibo: I would rather not specify a date, especially given things like that stupid DJC float glitch. Wish I had a USB Gecko...

@Symphonic: Cause Snake and Bowser are fat.

 

[Deleted member]

To be honest I'm not really sure what releasing a changelist would accomplish at this point. Appease curiosity? Just play the build, if you have a complaint, address it. There haven't been too many, which I think is a good sign.

 

[zxeon]

Very few changes are major, most of them are just minor tweaks to moves to make them work properly or make them more useful or less broken. The game overall has just been cleaned up since GSH1.

Changelists just lead to people doing things like "That didnt need nerfed" and write a 30 page essay on it before they ever try it, and lo and behold in the end....its a buff.

Has happened at least twice in the backroom alone and I just plain hate it. Remove your biases by reading a changelist and go make your own opinions and assumptions from gameplay. Thats how tourney games should be, and thats what determines who the best player is. The Ness boards is actually the perfect example: Keep asking for buffs since the changelist barely says anything and you get a completely broken character.

Go by feel, not by paper.

Those reasons are utter garbage. Because I could easily type twenty pages on how there is no changelist at all. An issue that has nothing to do with the project itself but with the way it is run which is a huge waste of everyone's time. Because this isn't some commercial game we picked up off of a shelf. This is Brawl+, a community project that used to be about the community. Which is to say you are hijacking the project and running off with it to do as you please with no oversight.

Not releasing a changelist is lazy and a feeble attempt at hiding changes to avoid backlash from people who are actually concerned with making this game better. Rather than helping to fix the problem you've created another one that suits you better and driving testers with limited time to waste it speculating and waiting for answers instead of having a concrete guide as to what they should be looking for to ascertain that all of the changes were implemented and are functioning properly.

That last paragraph is too big a mess to even touch so I'll leave it at this: not having a changelist kills productivity and sends the wrong message. I understand what you are trying to do but it just doesn't work that way. I think we've got the feel down. Can we please get a changelist now?

 

[GP&B]

I think that as long as some very important changes are mentioned/listed (DJC addition/mechanic additions, NADT fix, vital IASA frames, trajectory changes), it's fine. I don't care about how a move does 1% more or less damage than it used to. It might be important to mention a difference larger than 4%, but it comes off as really insignificant to me. If a character that is intended to combo well isn't and there's a change that improves it, we'll see it through gameplay, not a changelist.

 

[Alphatron]

So the quote above was implying not even the BRoom was given a changelist either? This is pretty strange, IMO.

Shouldn't changes be made BY the public, FOR the public? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it kind of sounds like there were no major changes, so there was one small group of people who "decided what was right."

Not trying to make anyone angry here, but this doesn't sound right to me.

Addressing this since you still feel this way.

Cape explained in this thread that any changes made were discussed with knowledgable players of those characters. Changes for Sonic in this set come to mind. Samus' bombs exploding on contact also come to mind. Cape/WBR aren't just throwing in whatever they think is right. If it seems this way, it is merely because you have not witnessed the private/public conversations that have been held with active members of the smash workshop.

 

[MK26]

zxeon, its not that there's a changelist that they're witholding...it's that there's no changelist at all...

EDIT: and gamedominator, try the premade gct

 

[Alphatron]

Yeah, Viet is working on the changelist. Nothing to worry about guys.

Anyway, I want to do sum brawl+ wifi. Bored out of my mind here.

 

[zxeon]

I think I covered that in my rant MK26.

 

[Veril]

Yeah, Viet is working on the changelist. Nothing to worry about guys.

This. I'm tired of the b****ing about the changelist.

Than again, its been great not needing to wade through pages of changelist-inspired half-a**ed theorycrafting.

 

[The Cape]

Not releasing a changelist is lazy and a feeble attempt at hiding changes to avoid backlash from people who are actually concerned with making this game better.

You think I care about backlash from people who make assumptions based on changelists? Thats pretty funny. The major changes that have seen complaints were found from gameplay (Marth fair and Ganon D throw) and both were explained in detail (multiple times I may add).

As for the lack of a changelist (as also been mentioned multiple times) the RC1 changelist was a complete mess and piece of **** to work with. I have been working on the vBrawl to current set changelist to be released with (or shortly after) the official. This alleviates the transition for new Brawl+ players more so than anything else. The need for the changelist to be complete and correct is more important than releasing a half ***** one. Secondly, making the set play correctly and to the best it can be played is the top priority (and always should be).

Changes were discussed with well known and experienced players for the characters and were tested meticulously by players over the last few months. Character specific threads were read and addressed for ideas and suggestions. This project has had an overwhelming amount of input (mostly behind the scenes).

 

[Dan_X]

Cape, I just wanted to stop by and thank you, and the rest of you responsible for this build. It's pretty solid, from what I've seen. I'm not gonna lie, I haven't played it in a great deal of depth, only for a few hours with my buddy. I've been playing Modern Warfare 2/ working constantly. My only complaint with the build has already been addressed. That complaint, unsurprisingly (becuase I'm a Falco main) is Falco's shine. It's too slow and otherwise different for me. I'm truly pleased that you worked with TH to furhermore perfect the shine. I'm assuming that TH's shine tweaks will be in the next build, right? Could I PLEASE get my hands on this Falco.PAC now?? I'm not going to bother with Falco as he is currently as I'd rather just play with the fix.

Thanks again! I look forward to the concise vBrawl to Brawl+ changelist. I personally find it very interesting to look at the changes from vBrawl to Brawl+. I dunno.. I'm weird and find it fascinating. LoL.

Thanks man! Keep up he good work.

 

[ChronicleX]

Since my sarcasm earlier did not get any response I'll ask straight up.

Is there any reason Sonic's Homing attack remains untouched? Low priority, Horrid homing and massive lag it has no use at all.

However I am impressed with everything else about the guy in GH2 but the neutral B is so slow and useless it seems out of place.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

Hey Guys!

I didn't know that we were getting a vBrawl changelist. Cool!

Random suggestion. If you guys are willing could you make a Layman's changelist as well as an official data changelist. I know a lot of people, even pro level, who are trying to get into BRawl+ and are having a hard time understanding the changes.

Just a suggestion, take or leave it ^_^.