At long last, Presenting GSH2, a Brawl+ Nightly Test Set and Discussion Topic

[MK26]

What he wrote:

Zelda has more than enough defensive options to make up for a slow grab. Her grab hits frame 12, double the normal speed of most non tether characters, yeah that's bad. But look at what Zelda has, and what I feel more than makes up for it. She's a defensive tank, she has a very hard to punish recovery, early kill options, and above all the power to switch into Sheik who's an offensive powerhouse. Her other defensive options and matchup resistance by switching to a high pressure/offensive character mid match is nothing to look at lightly.

What I read:

Zelda has a bad grab. You can live with it. kthnxbai.

QFT.

 

[Magus420]

Less shield grabbing, and more pivot grabbing. If her standing grab were 9 or 10 it still would be much less usable as a way to land grabs than pivot grabbing unless they do a lot of stupid things into your shield. Also, you can't dodge a 12 frame grab on reaction anyway. You have at best about 8 frames to choice react and input the dodge.

 

[The Cape]

Not to mention she has great throws to make up for her lack of throw speed and her range is still quite good.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

DDD commands you to give him a 1 frame grab with more range than Olimar's blue Pikmin!

Obey the disjointed grab!

Ahem. Now that I have my trolling out of my system:

Zelda has more than enough defensive options to make up for a slow grab. Her grab hits frame 12, double the normal speed of most non tether characters, yeah that's bad. But look at what Zelda has, and what I feel more than makes up for it. She's a defensive tank, she has a very hard to punish recovery, early kill options, and above all the power to switch into Sheik who's an offensive powerhouse. Her other defensive options and matchup resistance by switching to a high pressure/offensive character mid match is nothing to look at lightly.

i know its a joke but asking for a 1 frame grab and asking for a 10 or 9 frame grab is different.

since when did she have a hard to punish recovery? yes its has much less lag in brawl+ but still most the time it is obvious u r ether going for the stage or the edge and somone who predicts right can punish very easily.

she does have some strong early kill options but sadly she cant combo into them which is a pretty big weakness in brawl+.

She could be a lot better /more balanced character if she had a faster grab i mean why even give her a kill throw if she almost never gets to use it. i mean such a bad grab more or less always takes away an option which makes it easier for the opponent.

i mean u say she can kill early but since her grab is a non issue it makes it much easier for the opponent to defend against her other kill options since they know it wont be coming in the form of a grab and if the zelda tries to grab they can avoid it on reaction. this flaw should be fixed and i feel if it is she is one step closer to being a almost perfectly balanced character which is what they are going for in this game.

Spoiler

i only just got gsh2 yesterday so i might be wrong about some of the stuff i posted

edit: cape besides a stronger back throw and i think a stronger f-throw not sure what is so great about her throws?

also there are plenty of others who have better throw options who also have faster grabs.

Magus i see your point that making her pivot or dash grab faster would be more useful. i know i kinda only mentioned her standing throw but i did mean make all of her oddly slow grabs faster.

 

[Alphatron]

Not to mention she has great throws to make up for her lack of throw speed and her range is still quite good.

Friggin this. And her pivot grab and her dash grab are already faster than her standing grab. Shield grabbing with Zelda would definitely be a nice option, but she does not need it. You have a defensive character fighting in an offensive based engine and doing REALLY well for herself. I say she's good.

If you must ask for buffs, ask for Nayru's Love to not have the opponent take 1% dmg on clash.

 

[Magus420]

if the zelda tries to grab they can avoid it on reaction.

It's not realistically possible to do this at all. If they are dodging it they are simply predicting it.

 

[Revven]

Nagace, her Uthrow pretty easily leads to Uair I'm quite sure... and Dthrow is an OKAY techchase (well... maybe not since you can just DI away and tech away from her and she can't really... get to you once you've techrolled unless your techroll is really ****ty).

Everything about her is already pretty good, I don't know why you'd even bother to try to get it down to 10 frames of startup when that's hardly going to make a difference anyway (see: Magus420's post).

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

well if i am wrong i am wrong thats why i wrote this: i only just got gsh2 yesterday so i might be wrong about some of the stuff i posted.

i could use some more gsh2 experience so i am not sure how long i can play for tonight but anyone want to play some wifi?

 

[Alphatron]

well if i am wrong i am wrong thats why i wrote this: i only just got gsh2 yesterday so i might be wrong about some of the stuff i posted.

i could use some more gsh2 experience so i am not sure how long i can play for tonight but anyone want to play some wifi?

Yeah, I'll play with you. Posting from the wii though, so post again after you've added me and made the room so I can get on brawl.

Edit: Nevermind. Can't play after all. Figures this would happen the one time I find someone who actually wants to play wifi.

 

[Power of Slash]

Curiosity strikes me, and I appologize in advance if this has been explained in these past 70 pages(I haven't been reading, only really been playing this set)

But could I receive an explanation to the changes on Diddy's Nanners? Most specifically the decision to rid of the nanner lock, and in return(I'm probably wrong about this part, though I never payed attention, it was just brought to my attention) buffing the damage to 5%.

I don't really hold much of a stance on it, since either way I'm fine with it, I just really want to know.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

ignore post

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Yeah, I'll play with you. Posting from the wii though, so post again after you've added me and made the room so I can get on brawl.

Edit: Nevermind. Can't play after all. Figures this would happen the one time I find someone who actually wants to play wifi.

sorry for double post.

ok i added u. i will say i am not online right now b/c i switched the wire um so add me nd i will be back on in a min

 

[Alphatron]

Sorry man. I'm being forced off the wii and told to go to sleep. On the bright side, my router is apparently dropping packets, and I haven't fixed it yet.

 

[camelot]

But could I receive an explanation to the changes on Diddy's Nanners? Most specifically the decision to rid of the nanner lock, and in return(I'm probably wrong about this part, though I never payed attention, it was just brought to my attention) buffing the damage to 5%.

Bananas are 5% damage because there aren't stale moves anymore. In vBrawl they were used so often that the damage was usually staled to 3-4%.

I can't answer the rest of the question, sorry.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

let me just say one more thing about zelda's grab and then i will drop it.

making her grab slightly faster would not be game changing but it would help zelda a little bit so i dont see the harm in it. i seem to be outvoted and like i have said i only got gsh2 yesterday so it might not be a big deal but i think everyone can agree a 12 frame non tether grab is pretty stupid so why not change it. its not like i am asking for zelda to become a female version of falcon so she can combo into lightning kick like he does with knees (a funny thought i had).

 

[RPGsFTW]

Replays from today's tournament! Sorry for not having them renamed or anything. But here's something I can tell you guys.

*NOTE* My TO decided to make certain matches 3-stocks for a very bad reason.

Wario = RPGsFTW (me)
Falco = SK92
Ness = Fow
Snake/DK = Mi (629 isn't his game tag)
Lucario (standard blue) (Chill/Timbers on SWF)
Lucario (white) Drex

http://www.mediafire.com/RPGsFTW

 

[Daakun]

Alright, it has happened waaay too many times to be a fluke.
What was changed about the Ice Climbers that makes their up special fail so often?

 

[Bandit]

Not to mention she has great throws to make up for her lack of throw speed and her range is still quite good.

First part wrong. Second part right.

Her Bthrow can kill at percents that she could already kill with safer smashes.
Her Uthrow only combos into Uair on fast fallers.
Her Dthrow has no follow up unless they DI like a moron.
Her Fthrow does damage.

Uthrow was her only comboing throw, and it was tweaked so only fast fallers would be affected by it. Everything else just plain sucks.

It's not impossible for her to get a grab, but she cannot shield grab. Pivot grab and dash grab are about the only viable uses. In the end, without any true follow ups or tech chases, they just do 9-13 damage and that's it. Bthrow was a good change and an option, so at least she has one throw she can at least use if the player bothers with trying to grab.

Please don't kid yourself into thinking the throws are good. With as punishable and risky as grabs are for her, grabs are never the best option (unless Snake is recovering... then go nuts).

:bandit:

PS - Not asking for a change, just stating facts. Grabs have pretty much been eliminated from her metagame since vBrawl game out, so her having crappy throws is nothing new to a Zelda player.

PPS @ Plum - While Sheik is a different style, she hardly covers the weaknesses in Zelda's game and has similar bad matchups just for different reasons. They are a good change of pace for each other, but they should not be considered secondaries for each other.

 

[JCaesar]

Lemme just say one thing about the Zelda grab issue. Zelda is a defensive powerhouse. She is one of the toughest nuts to crack in the game because of her active defensive game. Her usmash straight-up beats virtually every aerial approach in the game (including airdodging) and kills well. Her fsmash comes out fairly quick and is unpunishable on block. Her projectile is safe if you know what you're doing with it, but its usefulness varies depending on opponent.

Some characters can outcamp her, but one of her important weaknesses is shield-pressure (a weakness which she needs). Speeding up her grab would make her passive (i.e. shield-camping) defensive game better and throw off the balance of the character. Why would she time usmash to beat aerial approaches when she can just shieldgrab instead? Grabs tend to have better rewards when landed. As things are now, she has to work a bit harder for grabs, and that's fine. Having more defensive options is the last thing that Zelda needs anyway.

TLDR: Zelda's balanced.

 

[Bandit]

@JCaesar: Right

Her grabs aren't needed for offense or defense. A surprise grab to Bthrow is good on occassion, but she always has better & safer options because of her smashes being as good as they are with better followups.

Basically, if you are playing Zelda and you would normally grab with other characters, Dtilt instead.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

Let me just ...

Goddamit JCaesar you beat me to it.

Uh... what he said.

 

[Bandit]

Don't worry, you're only an hour late...

:bandit:

 

[VietGeek]

For those testing the camera things, here's a fix for Ike and Kirby:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/mlxjfzrmzkt/Ike_Kirby_fixes_NICE_BOAT.zip

Kirby's issue was that I didn't replace all the values apparently. <_<

Happy Nice Boat.

 

[Roxas215]

Ok so after playing this set for a bit im getting annoyed with fighting DDD. Can someone tell me what to do when he dthrows me then fsmash? No matter how long i wait or if i tech or whatever im either going to get techchased grab or im going to trip.

 

[The Cape]

DDD D throw when DIed down and away and then teched has no actual followups.

You can shield F smash or you can sidestep grab. Its all tight but possible.

 

[Veril]

People usually confuse "not autocomboing" with not having any followups. In this case (DDD d-throw) its confusing limited followups with inescapable setups... But I digress.

I don't support buffing Zelda's grab/throw game. If you want to throw combo like a madman... Zelda's down-b is awesome for that.

 

[Kaotical]

Seriously, Zelda doesn't need a buff to her throw/grab game. It's fine. She's got so much else going on for her.

 

[Maximoff]

Alright, it has happened waaay too many times to be a fluke.
What was changed about the Ice Climbers that makes their up special fail so often?

This also happened to me yesterday... Nana was right next to Popo and when I performed UpB they both did the stupid little jump as if they were nowhere near each other... Also (this may be me going crazy) every single hit seems to send them both in opposite directions...

 

[RiteToRmnSilent]

I have a couple of things to say. I think maybe someone mentioned a glitch with MetaKnight's dthrow like a million pages ago, but if not then I will mention it. I was Meta facing a Donkey Kong and the match just started. I dash grabbed him and he was at 0% but when I grabbed him I slid a little as Meta sometimes does when you dash grab. I slid all the way to the edge of FD, and when I used my dthrow it instead spiked him. Some characters could have made it back up but since Donkey has a bad vertical recovery he lost a stock. The reason I mentioned the slide was because I think it might of had something to do with it. Not sure if it did, could have been a coincidence. Anyway it's not the biggest issue since that was the first time it happened to me, just throwing it out there in case some people didn't know and that maybe someone could explain why that happened.

Also was Bowser's dtilt damage raised? I don't think the second hit always did 15% but I could be wrong. If so then im perfectly fine with it since his throws were nerfed a little. Oh yeah and will that new Falco reflector be added in the next official? I forgot who posted his idea for it but it sounded pretty good.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I'm pretty the sure MK's down throw was changed on purpose. Try it out with Ganon's down throw.

 

[GP&B]

Originally Posted by Gamedominator06
I got to try it today and I still don't understand why this isn't working. I have downloaded all the .pac's and put them in (minus common5.pac, as I was told that caused crashes), and I've tried the codes a hundred times already. It's bothering me that the momentum capture hasn't been operating at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamedominator06
1GB SD card, and I've had consistent results before (although I've heard that the present process is different and may have different effects).

Reposting. There's got to be someone who is having the same problem... :\

Would someone at least be able to tell me what might be the problem? I've tested both a .gct of the downloaded text file and the premade .gct, I've removed common5.pac, and the momentum still isn't working.

 

[omegablackmage]

couldn't agree more with jc on the zelda topic, zelda needs no changes to her grab.

 

[Revven]

I have a couple of things to say. I think maybe someone mentioned a glitch with MetaKnight's dthrow like a million pages ago, but if not then I will mention it. I was Meta facing a Donkey Kong and the match just started. I dash grabbed him and he was at 0% but when I grabbed him I slid a little as Meta sometimes does when you dash grab. I slid all the way to the edge of FD, and when I used my dthrow it instead spiked him. Some characters could have made it back up but since Donkey has a bad vertical recovery he lost a stock. The reason I mentioned the slide was because I think it might of had something to do with it. Not sure if it did, could have been a coincidence. Anyway it's not the biggest issue since that was the first time it happened to me, just throwing it out there in case some people didn't know and that maybe someone could explain why that happened.

Because he was sliding, I have to ask you, did the opponent go straight down or was it at an angle? If it was at a low angle, I'm guessing what happened is what typically happens when you slide towards the edge and are directly on it: a grab break occurs and they are in their "get out of grab" animation. If it was downward, I don't know the conundrum because the Dthrow is supposed to send at a 120º angle (which is really high and backwards) so it shouldn't be spiking people, in which case, makes me believe what I said first to be the correct scenario in which case existed before Brawl+ was even given birth to (in other words, already occurs in vBrawl).

I'm pretty the sure MK's down throw was changed on purpose. Try it out with Ganon's down throw.

MK's Dthrow hasn't been changed since I made that angle change on it, ever since that point everyone has been fine with the 120º angle because it stops it from being an easy way to get someone off the stage with MK. There would be no reason to change it because the best option was what I had done. And WHY on EARTH would anyone BUFF the Dthrow by making it spike near edges?

SS12, this is why when you're not exactly sure what the problem is you shouldn't post because it won't add anything at all.

 

[Marufuji Ryo]

For those testing the camera things, here's a fix for Ike and Kirby:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/gnjmzyntzgt/Ike_Kirby_fixes_NICE_BOAT.zip

Kirby's issue was that I didn't replace all the values apparently. <_<

Happy Nice Boat.

How am I supposed to use this?

 

[Revven]

You just stick them into the character folders... that they are for... they have all of the changes GSH2 has + the camera fixes.

 

[Marufuji Ryo]

Sorry..what I meant to say was when I download them it was a .0 file or something which I can't seem to open, I thought it was coming in a zip file.

But I will try them in the folders as they are...

 

[Revven]

Sorry..what I meant to say was when I download them it was a .0 file or something which I can't seem to open, I thought it was coming in a zip file.

But I will try them in the folders as they are...

Oh, umm... yeah I don't know. The files (when I downloaded the fixed Kirby .pac and such) wouldn't let me unzip it so I'm assuming it's corrupted?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

rawr tiger...don't bite my head off....I had just assumed it had been changed the way Ganon's down throw was...

"to make all of his other throws relevant"

 

[VietGeek]

it seems Mediafire corrupted my file (and dated it 00/04/2010).

Here's an updated link, should work (since I used lazy Windows compression):

http://www.mediafire.com/file/mlxjfzrmzkt/Ike_Kirby_fixes_NICE_BOAT.zip

 

[Marufuji Ryo]

Thanks, will try these ones out.