Why MK should NOT be banned (the opinion from someone who actually fights them)

[ADHD]

^^ Is mad that I ***** his Diddy with Mario in a money match just before this, which is why he he challenged me to that match in the first place.

Wow, I hate ppl who make up stuff to make themselves look good..

 

[6Mizu]

Got em haha :3

Huh?
What do you mean "got em" ?

@ ADHD, me too. It's like there self-conceded

 

[Remzi]

RDK & Pierce:

Just so you guys know, you were originally debating two ENTIRELY different topics, lmfao.

IMO Marth loses to ROB and DK and goes even with D3, Snake, and Wolf.

Pierce intended to say: Marth loses to ROB and DK. Marth goes even with D3, Snake, Wolf.

RDK took it as: Marth loses to ROB. DK goes even with D3, Snake, and Wolf.

Just found it hilarious that you guys were going back and forth when you were discussing two different matchups.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Fixed that for you Jack.

... ^_-

Well, it's Borderlands time, so I'm not going to be posting for a while; sorry RDK. You want me to remember your post and reply later?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Wait if DK is unviable because D3 counters him... and D3 gets countered by Falco/ICs/Pika/whatever... it means D3 is inviable too! And it means DK is viable because D3 is inviable o_O though Falco, ICs and Pika can get countered too.. wtf! They're all unviable. What a stupid game.

Difference: any idiot can just pick up D3 and shut down your DK. You actually have to know something to beat a D3 with Falco/ICs/Pika.

 

[Chuee]

Im pretty sure he took it as Marth going even with D3. All I know is that Pierce thought he was talking about Marth v D3.

 

[Darkest Rival]

niccce sig man nice sig!!

 

[Pierce7d]

But in a week, or a month, or a year, or who know's how long, after the metagame evolves due to MK being banned, another character or something is going to pop up that people are going to want to ban for the same exact reasons people are using here. It's not objective, it's drawing lines in the sand. People's opinions don't matter because nobody can come up with a strong consensus opinion.

This is bad logic and theory craft. No other character has the OVERDOMINATING TOOLS of MK and no bad MUs or stage. Diddy Kong admittingly pokes a large hole in my argument, but I don't want the game to be reduced to MK and Diddy Kong. Also, MK is easier and far more popular, and shuts down characters harder and better than Diddy Kong. He has far less weaknesses and more strengths.

Well I guess we're going to just have to disagree here. DK vs. D3 is the worst mathcup in the game IMO. All it takes is one mistake for DK and he's done.

I will agree the MU is quite bad, and I will agree to disagree that it's the worst MU in the game. Falco vs. Link or something. That MU is MISERABLE.

 

[RDK]

RDK & Pierce:

Just so you guys know, you were originally debating two ENTIRELY different topics, lmfao.

Pierce intended to say: Marth loses to ROB and DK. Marth goes even with D3, Snake, Wolf.

RDK took it as: Marth loses to ROB. DK goes even with D3, Snake, and Wolf.

Just found it hilarious that you guys were going back and forth when you were discussing two different matchups.

Ooops, that's my bad Pierce, Bengalz is right. It looked like you said "DK goes even with D3, Snake, and Wolf".

... ^_-
Well, it's Borderlands time, so I'm not going to be posting for a while; sorry RDK. You want me to remember your post and reply later?

Sure, take your time; you have a lot of explaining to do.

Though it's pretty cowardly of you to pretend like you have to go do something when in reality you just don't have a good answer for me.

 

[etecoon]

If I remember correctly, Snake's ftilt goes through Marth's Fair, don't remember though =/

the range on both attacks is pretty similar, I think fair actually has a little more than ftilt1 and in my experience it usually wins, but even so, snake's ftilt isn't a great anti air attack and marth can weave in and out too well. marth's dtilt also outranges snake's ftilt1(ftilt2 is very unsafe)

I don't see how Marth would do better against Snake than mk. Mk has better juggling and better offstage options on snake.

MK's edge guarding is easier to circumvent for me than marth's, MK has poor horizontal air mobility, marth can get to you from farther away. sometimes you can survive a few off stage hits from MK too if you can evade him and he has to refresh his jumps or if you can tech his stage spikes, marth if you ever fall parallel to him/beneath him, you lost a stock. if you recover high, you get juggled and possibly have the situation reset. marth's ledge trap on snake is also really stupid, if snake is hanging on the l;edge marth can space autocancel aerials and dtilts outside of snake's get up attack range and snake has literally zero options that don't result in getting hit if marth doesn't mess up.

snake's oki is also more effective on MK than marth, MK has to do something immediately or risk jab > ftilt, jab and ftilt miss marth lying on the ground so the only thing snake can do to prevent him from just lying there is utilt him(dair is easy to DI out of and punish and everything else can be beaten on reaction), meaning that marth can force snake to stale his best kill move or be forced to predict not only what he will do but also *when* he will do it

 

[The Brigand]

Having a few 6-4 MU's doesn't make D3 unviable. Better luck next time DK player.

Technically speaking, they're 65:35 the last time the Dedede board went over them, iirc. And it's Falco, Ice Climbers, Pikachu, and Olimar.

Hell, that seems to be the right way to play DK if you ask me. Go with him the first match, then switch to a D3 counter for the second. So long as you've put serious time into learning that character, going up against one of their counters can't be worse than sticking with DK and getting dthrown to death.

 

[Eddie G]

But in a week, or a month, or a year, or who know's how long, after the metagame evolves due to MK being banned, another character or something is going to pop up that people are going to want to ban for the same exact reasons people are using here.

Are people seriously still defaulting to this logic? IT'S ENTIRELY FAULTY AND INCORRECT!

Resort to Pierce's reasoning for this.

 

[Chuee]

I will agree the MU is quite bad, and I will agree to disagree that it's the worst MU in the game. Falco vs. Link or something. That MU is MISERABLE.

Please tell me how the **** Falco v Link is worse then Ganon v IC?

MK's edge guarding is easier to circumvent for me than marth's,

but mk has 5-6 jumps ._.

Technically speaking, they're 65:35 the last time the Dedede board went over them, iirc. And it's Falco, Ice Climbers, Pikachu, and Olimar.

Hell, that seems to be the right way to play DK if you ask me. Go with him the first match, then switch to a D3 counter for the second. So long as you've put serious time into learning that character, going up against one of their counters can't be worse than sticking with DK and getting dthrown to death.

I already said that Falco boards have it as 60-40. I already said that D3 players say IC isn't that bad. I don't know anybody that thinks D3 gets 65-35 by Pika. Olimar's MU discussion has it at 60-40.
Viable is using only that character, not switching to cover bad MU's.

 

[Pierce7d]

Wow, I hate ppl who make up stuff to make themselves look good..

inorite

RDK & Pierce:

Just so you guys know, you were originally debating two ENTIRELY different topics, lmfao.

Pierce intended to say: Marth loses to ROB and DK. Marth goes even with D3, Snake, Wolf.

RDK took it as: Marth loses to ROB. DK goes even with D3, Snake, and Wolf.

Just found it hilarious that you guys were going back and forth when you were discussing two different matchups.

. . . lol. I realized this, but I decided to just run with it. I debate for the sake of education, not just to be right.

Difference: any idiot can just pick up D3 and shut down your DK. You actually have to know something to beat a D3 with Falco/ICs/Pika.

I can teach you how to shut down D3 with Falco REALLY quick. The others, I'll concede the point. Still, are we arguing difficulty, or the actual MU? I guarentee you that I can beat your grandma's D3 with DK, and I don't play DK.

Im pretty sure he took it as Marth going even with D3. All I know is that Pierce thought he was talking about Marth v D3.

Correct

 

[Allied]

BENGALZ WHERE YA BEEN BRAH

i was cheering you on before meatriding your marf bro

 

[Chuee]

I guarentee you that I can beat your grandma's D3 with DK, and I don't play DK.

because his grandma has never even played the game and probably doesn't even know the controls or how to do the infinite. He was probably talking about those random tourny scrubs.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I think the core issue is that we simply don't agree on what is banworthy.

I posted a criteria a while back which is held by myself and the majority of anti-ban (at least the well-researched ones anyway).


Perhaps we could use a starting point and establish a concrete criteria which should be used for all bans.

Are people seriously still defaulting to this logic? IT'S ENTIRELY FAULTY AND INCORRECT!

Resort to Pierce's reasoning for this.

I think the issue is more that once we establish ourselves as liberal in terms of banning, it becomes very easy to ban new things because precedent rules. And once we ban it becomes very difficult to unban if things are later proven to not be banworthy.


Our community already is rather ban-happy with a variety of things popularly banned that are unnecessary (a number of stages) or amount to MU surgery at least at the moment (DDD's infinite, planking though more because we don't have really any body of evidence to support that it's banworthy).


I will say this though, a scrooging ban is legit, and I would suggest banning going under the stage as a way to deal with that. Sure, it has legitimate uses, but the stalling potential is too great.

 

[Darkest Rival]

scrooging should be definatley banned that would fix a bunch of problems in itself.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

because his grandma has never even played the game and probably doesn't even know the controls or how to do the infinite. He was probably talking about those random tourny scrubs.

This.

I still (and it's been a while) haven't heard an argument that isn't either some form of slippery slope fallacy (If we ban MK, we'll want to ban Diddy/Marth/Snake next), Learn The Matchup argument, or appeal to the status quo from the anti-ban side. There aren't enough from either side. >.>

Also: I have the perfect solution to figure out if MK is ban-worthy.

1. Remove all rules on Planking, Scrooging, etc. other than the central stalling rule.
2. Run tournaments with MK, watch to see if he dominates more
3. ???
4. Ban Metaknight because these rules put in place to limit him mean he's broken
5. PROFIT!

 

[AvaricePanda]

ITT:

THEORYCRAFT THEORYCRAFT THEORYCRAFT
OMG UR THEORYCRAFT IS BAD HERE'S WHY
NO UR THEORYCRAFT IS WRONG HERE'S WHY
THEORYCRAFT NO TOURNAMENT RESULTS TO BACK UP THAT MKS GOING TO DESTROY BRAWL IN A YEAR
THEORYCRAFT NO TOURNAMENT RESULTS TO BACK UP SOME OTHER CHARACTER'S GOING TO REPLACE MK IF HE'S BANNED IN A YEAR
THEORYCRAFT THEORYCRAFT

None of these statements should have any weight (I'm namely talking about the, "MK is killing Brawl, making tournament attendance lower, it's going to die in a year or two" statements). Back these up with tournament results. No one's mentioned my idea of compiling 50-100 man tourneys or regionals over the past year, seeing where MK falls in the results, and seeing where attendance is.

If you can provide that, people will be more likely to believe you or at least consider the evidence you're giving. Until then, nobody's brought up anything new from the MK ban debate. These are pretty much all topics covered in the most recent MK ban poll thread. It's like one giant copy-paste.

 

[RDK]

I think the core issue is that we simply don't agree on what is banworthy.

I posted a criteria a while back which is held by myself and the majority of anti-ban (at least the well-researched ones anyway).


Perhaps we could use a starting point and establish a concrete criteria which should be used for all bans.





I think the issue is more that once we establish ourselves as liberal in terms of banning, it becomes very easy to ban new things because precedent rules. And once we ban it becomes very difficult to unban if things are later proven to not be banworthy.


Our community already is rather ban-happy with a variety of things popularly banned that are unnecessary (a number of stages) or amount to MU surgery at least at the moment (DDD's infinite, planking though more because we don't have really any body of evidence to support that it's banworthy).


I will say this though, a scrooging ban is legit, and I would suggest banning going under the stage as a way to deal with that. Sure, it has legitimate uses, but the stalling potential is too great.

Scrooging is just a fancy way of saying stalling, so yes.

The point I was trying to make with that post is that we have to have legitimate, enforceable rules as to what we do and don't ban. That thread you made a while back displays this point nicely.

 

[Allied]

ok i'm down with these threads for now all you guys who post in here should come to more tournaments :DDD

namely east coast region

inb4 i live in kansas wut is east coast

 

[Chuee]

The only characters i've heard of that were banned from a competitive game are Kabuto from some Naruto and Akuma from some street fighter game. Kabuto was banned because one of his moves had invincibility during the entire startup and ending lag and because he regained health, something like that. Akuma was banned because of an inescapable combo that once he landed that one attack you lost.
Apparently these characters were banned because of one or two things that were incredibly broken. Mk doesn't really have any one thing that is broken in comparison to those.

 

[6Mizu]

ok i'm down with these threads for now all you guys who post in here should come to more tournaments :DDD

namely east coast region

inb4 i live in kansas wut is east coast

I'd luv to go to more tournaments.

 

[Rybaia]

I hope this thread lasts forever
*F5*

 

[The Brigand]

ok i'm down with these threads for now all you guys who post in here should come to more tournaments :DDD

Pay my way in for me, k? I'll be your friend. I'll even bring my own controller! And swap it for your one when you're not looking. Darn thing's busted.

 

[Maniclysane]

I am really curious as to why Pierce7d is in the back room but ADHD isn't.

ADHD can beat MK's. Piece7d says MK beats everyone else so he should be banned. That's basically dumbing the game down for the people who aren't good enough. ADHD proved that you can be better than MK. Win against Ally and M2K. I think that's proof enough that MK doesn't need to be banned.

 

[Z1GMA]

Tom hanks (MUGEN) is truly broken:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ2DiwD9OXQ
Watch round 2.

Not as much as Weegee, though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_9FO5chlzc
Those are actually his special moves, lmao.

 

[ADHD]

I am really curious as to why Pierce7d is in the back room but ADHD isn't.

ADHD can beat MK's. Piece7d says MK beats everyone else so he should be banned. That's basically dumbing the game down for the people who aren't good enough. ADHD proved that you can be better than MK. Win against Ally and M2K. I think that's proof enough that MK doesn't need to be banned.

Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

 

[AvaricePanda]

inb4 i live in kansas wut is east coast

i live in indiana wut is east coast

 

[D1]

All I know is that ADHD's sig is the reason to ban MK.

 

[TP]

I am really curious as to why Pierce7d is in the back room but ADHD isn't.

ADHD can beat MK's. Piece7d says MK beats everyone else so he should be banned. That's basically dumbing the game down for the people who aren't good enough. ADHD proved that you can be better than MK. Win against Ally and M2K. I think that's proof enough that MK doesn't need to be banned.

Skill is not the only thing needed to get into the SBR. ADHD threatened Plank over the prize money of Pound 4. It was a joke, but was incredible disrespectful and stupid.

Pierce pretty much sums up my opinions on MK every time he posts. <3 Pierce.

 

[6Mizu]

I am really curious as to why Pierce7d is in the back room but ADHD isn't.

ADHD can beat MK's. Piece7d says MK beats everyone else so he should be banned. That's basically dumbing the game down for the people who aren't good enough. ADHD proved that you can be better than MK. Win against Ally and M2K. I think that's proof enough that MK doesn't need to be banned.

Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

Mmmmmm...........I guess ADHD's right, MK doesn't need to be banned. All I have to say is give it some time and maybe this topic will come up again, and that's when MK will be banned.

All I know is that ADHD's sig is the reason to ban MK.

lol

 

[Maniclysane]

Skill is not the only thing needed to get into the SBR. ADHD threatened Plank over the prize money of Pound 4. It was a joke, but was incredible disrespectful and stupid.

It was a joke

Yep .

 

[ADHD]

I guess people take kids who say "i'll kill you if...!" with a smile on their face seriously nowadays.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I guess people take kids who say "i'll kill you if...!" with a smile on their face seriously nowadays.

I dunno, the stuff about his GF, that sort of crossed the line and you sort of didn't quite get to crossing it twice...


I only heard it secondhand, but it did sound a bit psychotic, though I understood better then most cause I was there the last time you placed top... and didn't see a cent.

 

[Nicole]

I am really curious as to why Pierce7d is in the back room but ADHD isn't.

ADHD can beat MK's. Piece7d says MK beats everyone else so he should be banned. That's basically dumbing the game down for the people who aren't good enough. ADHD proved that you can be better than MK. Win against Ally and M2K. I think that's proof enough that MK doesn't need to be banned.

How do you even come to this conclusion? ADHD beats MKs, therefore, MK isn't broken. Need I remind you of the Pound 4 results?
ADHD, MK, MK, MK, MK, MK, Olimar (he didn't have to play any MKs in his bracket), MK.

ADHD's incredibly good. What other Diddy has shown such skill? In fact, what other player has shown such skill to beat MK?? Ally, ADHD, DEHF. That's THREE people. Guess what? The Brawl community is not made up of THREE people. It's stupid to say "Oh, the absolute best players can deal with MK," because the few absolute best players who don't already play MK are not representative of the Brawl community! And how do these best players make their money? Why, scrubs like you and me feeding the pot.

It's great for the elite players to say, "Oh, well, I personally can deal with MK, so I don't think he should be banned." Good for them. I bet if MK is banned, they will still win tournaments. I'm sure ADHD will be winning. I'm sure Ally and DEHF will too. Banning MK will bring even more interest to Brawl and will only make the first prize pot even larger. Instead of the rest of the community (who are low -> mid level players) getting disgusted with MK and quitting, they'll stick with the game and go to more tournaments, meaning more harmony in the community and more money for pros.

 

[RDK]

I dunno, the stuff about his GF, that sort of crossed the line and you sort of didn't quite get to crossing it twice...


I only heard it secondhand, but it did sound a bit psychotic, though I understood better then most cause I was there the last time you placed top... and didn't see a cent.

Wait, what happened?

How do you even come to this conclusion? ADHD beats MKs, therefore, MK isn't broken. Need I remind you of the Pound 4 results?
ADHD, MK, MK, MK, MK, MK, Olimar (he didn't have to play any MKs in his bracket), MK.

ADHD's incredibly good. What other Diddy has shown such skill? In fact, what other player has shown such skill to beat MK?? Ally, ADHD, DEHF. That's THREE people. Guess what? The Brawl community is not made up of THREE people. It's stupid to say "Oh, the absolute best players can deal with MK," because the few absolute best players who don't already play MK are not representative of the Brawl community! And how do these best players make their money? Why, scrubs like you and me feeding the pot.

It's great for the elite players to say, "Oh, well, I personally can deal with MK, so I don't think he should be banned." Good for them. I bet if MK is banned, they will still win tournaments. I'm sure ADHD will be winning. I'm sure Ally and DEHF will too. Banning MK will bring even more interest to Brawl and will only make the first prize pot even larger. Instead of the rest of the community (who are low -> mid level players) getting disgusted with MK and quitting, they'll stick with the game and go to more tournaments, meaning more harmony in the community and more money for pros.

Matchups are not determined at the low to mid-level range; they are determined at the height of the metagame.

If we're going to ban something over being broken, it being broken according to a low / mid level player is entirely irrelevant.

 

[6Mizu]

Mmmmmm...........I guess ADHD's right, MK doesn't need to be banned. All I have to say is give it some time and maybe this topic will come up again, and that's when MK will be banned.



lol

How do you even come to this conclusion? ADHD beats MKs, therefore, MK isn't broken. Need I remind you of the Pound 4 results?
ADHD, MK, MK, MK, MK, MK, Olimar (he didn't have to play any MKs in his bracket), MK.

ADHD's incredibly good. What other Diddy has shown such skill? In fact, what other player has shown such skill to beat MK?? Ally, ADHD, DEHF. That's THREE people. Guess what? The Brawl community is not made up of THREE people. It's stupid to say "Oh, the absolute best players can deal with MK," because the few absolute best players who don't already play MK are not representative of the Brawl community! And how do these best players make their money? Why, scrubs like you and me feeding the pot.

It's great for the elite players to say, "Oh, well, I personally can deal with MK, so I don't think he should be banned." Good for them. I bet if MK is banned, they will still win tournaments. I'm sure ADHD will be winning. I'm sure Ally and DEHF will too. Banning MK will bring even more interest to Brawl and will only make the first prize pot even larger. Instead of the rest of the community (who are low -> mid level players) getting disgusted with MK and quitting, they'll stick with the game and go to more tournaments, meaning more harmony in the community and more money for pros.

Forget what I said up there. Ironboots got a great point here. I mean think about it....not everyone is good at the MK MU.

 

[Rybaia]

I guess people take kids who say "i'll kill you if...!" with a smile on their face seriously nowadays.