Why MK should NOT be banned (the opinion from someone who actually fights them)

[Pierce7d]

I just complained about every other character except CF. By your criteria, that constitutes proof that everyone except CF has a negative effect on the health of Brawl.



I agree with most everything you said, except the chaingrab. And have we forgotten the D3 infinite? DK isn't even a viable character; we've discussed this.

No, you are one very small instance and insignifcant in the grand scheme of things (like myself). My criteria states that a mass number of people, shown to be possibly in the majority, have a clear-cut and frequently expressed problem with MK. I wish I could see you in person and make you look me in the eye and tell me that other characters produce this kind of problem/effect.

What does whether or not DK being a viable character have to do with anything??? I was simply stating my opinion as a response to the MU chart with no MK. Also, by that same notion, I could say D3 isn't viable because of Falco/ICs, etc. With a counter-picking system in play, one character isn't invalidated entirely because of one character. That's why we play three rounds, with counter-picking.

 

[ADHD]

now that I think about it, ADHD did have like only MKS too which he's good vs wow sooo gay this is a fluke!

You're just salty your mk sucks, then you proceeded to get back thrown > halberd bomb > nair combo'd. On top of that, you got timed out by mew2king game 5. How do you feel?

 

[Eddie G]

...Who is RDK again? Does he even attend tournaments? By the way he posts and the hefty reliance on witty counter arguments that are disguised as simple dismissals to others' arguments, he seems more like a forum dweller than anything. If I'm wrong, then I apologize, but that's the impression I'm getting.

Your mindset has shown that you focus more on absolutes and what is written on paper, with no consideration for the possibility of change and the influence of individual skill/matchup knowledge. DK isn't a viable character because of what...one horrid matchup? I guess Falco is suddenly screwed now because of Pikachu, that is, if I were to abide by your logic. I've seen respectable D3's overcome respectable Falcos and ICs, it's not impossible. CF only making the game entertaining? Cute, but has nothing to do with anything related to this argument.

 

[Pierce7d]

isn't this a contradiction? you say brawl isn't broken but then you say "if you take the best players out of the equation, MK's dominance is 5x worse than it appears"...that makes it sound as if it is extremely broken and is being held in check by just a few supremely talented people.

not saying it is or isn't broken myself, just the way you said this doesn't make sense to me

Very observant of you! This is largely due to the fact that many of the higher level players, including myself, are trying to hang onto our pride and show that we can fight MK if we're good enough, instead of accepting that he's just too broken. Right now, I'm not sure what I believe in regard to that.

EDIT: . . . LMAO ADHD GOING IN FOR NO REASON!!!

 

[Chuee]

do you actually realize how good DK is?

I know this will sound dumb but if DDD wasn't in this game DK would be almost as good as marth

I was saying this because almost of what Pierce said about DK v Marth could be said for the snake MU. Early kills, hard time approaching, heavy. I think he left out Marth juggling DK though.

 

[Jack Kieser]

...Who is RDK again? Does he even attend tournaments? By the way he posts and the hefty reliance on witty counter arguments that are disguised as simple dismissals to others' arguments, he seems more like a forum dweller than anything. If I'm wrong, then I apologize, but that's the impression I'm getting.

Your mindset has shown that you focus more on absolutes and what is written on paper, with no consideration for the possibility of change and the influence on individual skill/matchup knowledge. DK isn't a viable character because of what...one horrid matchup? I guess Falco is suddenly screwed now because of Pikachu, that is, if I were to abide by your logic. I've seen respectable D3's overcome respectable Falcos and ICs, it's not impossible. CF only making the game entertaining? Cute, but has nothing to do with anything related to this argument.

Thank you. I'm pretty sure RDK only plays Melee, although he can surely correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, yes, he's totally a forum dweller, although I usually only see him posing in the debate hall, unless he wants to debate about items or MK.

 

[Allied]

lol everyone is hating on everyone its just a discussion about MK peeps

:D

 

[Chuee]

Everyone is hating on RDK.

 

[ADHD]

lol everyone is hating on everyone its just a discussion about MK peeps

:D

Shut the **** up you dork. DWEEB.. WEEABOO... BASEMENT DWELLER!

 

[RDK]

...Who is RDK again? Does he even attend tournaments? By the way he posts and the hefty reliance on witty counter arguments that are disguised as simple dismissals to others' arguments, he seems more like a forum dweller than anything. If I'm wrong, then I apologize, but that's the impression I'm getting.

I like Melee. I used to go to tournaments; don't anymore because Brawl is an atrocious game. But I'm far from a "forum dweller" lol.

Your mindset has shown that you focus more on absolutes and what is written on paper, with no consideration for the possibility of change and the influence on individual skill/matchup knowledge. DK isn't a viable character because of what...one horrid matchup? I guess Falco is suddenly screwed now because of Pikachu, that is, if I were to abide by your logic. I've seen respectable D3's overcome respectable Falcos and ICs, it's not impossible. CF only making the game entertaining? Cute, but has nothing to do with anything related to this argument.

You're missing the point. DK is inviable because all someone has to do is switch to D3 in order to eliminate him. Even playing as DK under any circumstance is stupid as far as the infinite isn't banned, which it shouldn't be.

Jack I'll get to your post in a second; there's like 10 people ganging up on me lol.

 

[Lord Viper]

lol everyone is hating on everyone its just a discussion about MK peeps

:D

☆ Why do you think I said I was poping some popcorn and enjoying the post? Becuase it's too **** funny to watch. I gave up on debating since should Meta Knight be banned IV thread. I'm still anti-ban but who cares? =P ☆

 

[Pierce7d]

I love how Marth's say the have an advantage on snake but they lose to DK.

First off, Marth's don't say they have the advantage on Snake. I said that Marth is EVEN with Snake. Dash attack frequently changes my mind though. I think Dash attack may push it to slight advantage Snake, but I'm still not sure.

Popular opinion has Marth going even with DK and losing slightly to Snake. I was stating MY opinion. Neo thinks Marth beats DK. Almost all of us think Marth loses to ROB.

 

[Ripple]

I was saying this because almost of what Pierce said about DK v Marth could be said for the snake MU. Early kills, hard time approaching, heavy. I think he left out Marth juggling DK though.

well its just that DK is pretty much a backwords marth

but DK is stronger, heavier, and has better kill moves, and more range

marth can combo DK though which makes it slightly in DK's favor

 

[etecoon]

I was saying this because almost of what Pierce said about DK v Marth could be said for the snake MU. Early kills, hard time approaching, heavy. I think he left out Marth juggling DK though.

marth can approach snake a lot more reliably than DK IMO, snake can't punish rising retreating fair and his camping has holes that marth is built pretty well to exploit. additionally marth can stay out of snake's utilt range and live a pretty long time in that MU, snake shouldn't KO marth that early too often, and it severely handicaps snake vs marth to save his utilt anyway. I actually consider marth a harder MU for snake than MK, just because a character is better than another doesn't mean they'll do better vs every other character

 

[Jack Kieser]

Jack I'll get to your post in a second; there's like 10 people ganging up on me lol.

It's cool, man; take your time. I'm helping my GF with tech support issues anyway.

 

[Chuee]

Snake's DA or Marth's?
I don't know why you'd say that since both of their DA's are pretty bad.

 

[etecoon]

Snake's DA or Marth's?
I don't know why you'd say that since both of their DA's are pretty bad.

snake's dash attack, it can punish a lot of the spacing game that marth's typically use like SHFF fair is very unsafe if whiffed vs snake, marth has to do some different things vs snake than other characters

 

[professor mgw]

I thought this was about MK.....

 

[Jack Kieser]

I thought this was about MK.....

The debate's starting to turn into a bit of a clusterf**k. Mainly because the anti-bans are resorting to picking apart hypotheticals to change the subject instead of dealing with the overarching meaning of a post.

Also, lol @ Chuee saying Snake's DA is bad.

 

[Black Marf]

You're just salty your mk sucks, then you proceeded to get back thrown > halberd bomb > nair combo'd. On top of that, you got timed out by mew2king game 5. How do you feel?

I just read 35 pages and this was the best post.

 

[RDK]

No, you are one very small instance and insignifcant in the grand scheme of things (like myself). My criteria states that a mass number of people, shown to be possibly in the majority, have a clear-cut and frequently expressed problem with MK. I wish I could see you in person and make you look me in the eye and tell me that other characters produce this kind of problem/effect.

No, I totally agree that MK has a negative effect on metagame health. I don't however think it's okay to ban him simply because a majority of people whine about him. He's not good enough to warrant a ban.

What does whether or not DK being a viable character have to do with anything??? I was simply stating my opinion as a response to the MU chart with no MK. Also, by that same notion, I could say D3 isn't viable because of Falco/ICs, etc. With a counter-picking system in play, one character isn't invalidated entirely because of one character. That's why we play three rounds, with counter-picking.

DK vs. D3 is not even close to being comparable with D3 vs. Falco / ICs. D3 completely shuts down Donkey Kong. My mother could pick up D3, use the infinite, and knock the top DK in the nation into the loser's bracket.

 

[Pierce7d]

The debate's starting to turn into a bit of a clusterf**k. Mainly because the anti-bans are resorting to picking apart hypotheticals to change the subject instead of dealing with the overarching meaning of a post.

Also, lol @ Chuee saying Snake's DA is bad.

I was talking about Snake's Dash attack, which is amazing anti SH material and deals great damage (12 or 13).

Also, Snake doesn't have an aerial which wrecks Marth completely, is fast, and safe. You can't even counter DK's Bair, as it reliably hits the achillies heel on Marth's counter and therefore ignores it, hitting Marth anyway.

And the reason I didn't mention Marth juggling DK is because DK can juggle Marth too. Bair hits high, Uair is fast and good, Utilt is good.

And as was already intelligently stated, Snake cannot punish aerials on his shield. DK can Uair OOS to hit Marth, or simply prevent Marth from reaching him with ftilt or his own Bair.

I wouldn't quite say DK is a backwards Marth.

Anyway, to get back on topic, this whole thread is lulzy. Look at the title. What do you mean "Someone who actually fights MK?" WE ALL FIGHT MK, AND WE'RE LOSING! Just because YOU win doesn't mean YOU should single handedly affect the fate of the entire community.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Anyway, to get back on topic, this whole thread is lulzy. Look at the title. What do you mean "Someone who actually fights MK?" WE ALL FIGHT MK, AND WE'RE LOSING! Just because YOU win doesn't mean YOU should single handedly affect the fate of the entire community.

Win post is win

 

[Chuee]

well its just that DK is pretty much a backwords marth

but DK is stronger, heavier, and has better kill moves, and more range

marth can combo DK though which makes it slightly in DK's favor

*backwards
Also DK is slightly stronger, slightly heavier, has more kill options (more = better), and slightly better range

marth can approach snake a lot more reliably than DK IMO, snake can't punish rising retreating fair and his camping has holes that marth is built pretty well to exploit. additionally marth can stay out of snake's utilt range and live a pretty long time in that MU, snake shouldn't KO marth that early too often, and it severely handicaps snake vs marth to save his utilt anyway. I actually consider marth a harder MU for snake than MK, just because a character is better than another doesn't mean they'll do better vs every other character

If I remember correctly, Snake's ftilt goes through Marth's Fair, don't remember though =/
Marth can definitely avoid utilt really well with spaced Fairs.
I don't see how Marth would do better against Snake than mk. Mk has better juggling and better offstage options on snake.

EDIT: Snake's DA is atrocious on shield. It's a lot better when they're in the air, but if they AD it you're ****ed.

 

[ADHD]

Anyway, to get back on topic, this whole thread is lulzy. Look at the title. What do you mean "Someone who actually fights MK?" WE ALL FIGHT MK, AND WE'RE LOSING! Just because YOU win doesn't mean YOU should single handedly affect the fate of the entire community.

-is also salty his marth got beat 3-1 by my mk in a 5$ MM-

 

[Z1GMA]

The most sad part is the fact that there are players who choose their main after how well the character does against MK, not the entire roster.

 

[Pierce7d]

No, I totally agree that MK has a negative effect on metagame health. I don't however think it's okay to ban him simply because a majority of people whine about him. He's not good enough to warrant a ban.



DK vs. D3 is not even close to being comparable with D3 vs. Falco / ICs. D3 completely shuts down Donkey Kong. My mother could pick up D3, use the infinite, and knock the top DK in the nation into the loser's bracket.

I think having a negative affect on metagame health and player satisfaction is a perfectly fine reason to ban him, and is the reason I switched to pro ban in the first place. A lot of people have been saying, "Suck it up scrubs" lately, and I feel like if this attitude is continued instead of killing MK, we'll kill Brawl all together.

DK has moves that are safe on block and can effectively force D3 into the air and not get grabbed while using DownB. Once D3 is in the air, DK can fight him with his Bair, and if he pushes D3 to a ledge or offstage, he can continue to wrack up massive damage, and then punish D3's recovery with deadly kill moves. It's a very bad MU even still, it's not but incomparable to D3 vs Falco or ICs at all.

 

[RDK]

Also, the SBR says they only want their rulesets to be used as "guidelines", anyway. All this shows is that you agree with doing stuff because "that's how it's always been", which doesn't mean is wasn't monumentally stupid. You should know better than to use cheap populism as an argument.

No, that's not why I favor the current ruleset and I've explained it in pretty much every post I've made in this thread. I like the current ruleset because it minimizes game interference while still keeping it fair (to the players, not the characters) and competitive.

It just so happens that "it's how it's always been done"; that's now why we do it though.

Or that they aren't progressive enough to make a change without being told to do so. Let's face it: Xyro's tournaments only got better with a MK ban. He had the balls to try something different, and it worked. Other TO's don't have the same balls, and they want the SBR to tell them its ok so they can cover their own *****. I don't blame them for that, but I do blame them for making the situation worse.

How did they get "better"? Better by whose standards?

This is what I'm talking about when I bring up subjectivity. My "better" is probably not your idea of "better", and vice versa.

But we don't play Brawl anywhere near as close to out-of-the-box as we can. We've already established (multiple times, btw) that we selectively choose when to be conservative and when to be liberal, as long as it fits what we want to ban and what we don't.

No, that's what I'm trying to stop by showing people it's ludicrous to ban MK. Banning MK would be a perfect example of what you mentioned above: taking something out of the game, just because. There is no good reason to get rid of him except for limp arguments like "ZOMG HE'S KILLING THE METAGAME", "THE GAME ISN'T FUN", or whiny arguments about how people are going to quit if he isn't banned.

People still have yet to come up with specific incidents where something was banned that didn't fit the criteria.

And by banned, I mean by the SBR, not by some rogue TO that decided he wanted to ban this or that. Like NY or Texas. I mean people who actually strive to play the game competitively.

You still haven't given me that list of 6 100+ man All Brawl tournaments from before the first SBR ruleset. I even gave you all night. You haven't done it because you can't do it. Face it; we've already contradicted ourselves with your precious ban criteria, so there's no reason we absolutely have to follow it now. If we want to ban MK, we have full right to because it's not like we didn't do that with tons of stuff already.

How has the criteria contradicted itself? Never did I say that I, nor anyone else, had to make a list of six 100+ man All-Brawl tournaments in order to prove something; you made that up.

All I said was that items were tested extensively by the SBR - in Brawl; this was not carried over from Melee - prior to them being "officially banned"

"Tons of stuff"? What tons of stuff are you talking about? You always trot some vague figure out but you never give specific examples. Please give an example of something that was banned that didn't fit the current ban criteria. See one of my earlier replies, I think I covered it there.

 

[Jack Kieser]

The most sad part is the fact that there are players who choose their main after how well the character does against MK, not the entire roster.

It's not quite "pick MK or lose", but I'd say that's over-centralizing.

 

[Allied]

Shut the **** up you dork. DWEEB.. WEEABOO... BASEMENT DWELLER!

First of all ADHD i know why your the only one who beats MK because you play this game too much its so OBVIOUS

You see guys thats an unfair tactic because he plays too much hes better than MKs

if we played we could be better but thats too hard

therefore ban MK
lets do it guys

P.S wyatt UR A ****

 

[6Mizu]

Shut the **** up you dork. DWEEB.. WEEABOO... BASEMENT DWELLER!

LOL @ ^ !
And I think Ally's MK is pretty good.

 

[Darkest Rival]

hahaha on above post.... we all just need to be bigger nerds and play more like ADHD j/k

 

[ADHD]

First of all ADHD i know why your the only one who beats MK because you play this game too much its so OBVIOUS

You see guys thats an unfair tactic because he plays too much hes better than MKs

if we played we could be better but thats too hard

therefore ban MK
lets do it guys

P.S wyatt UR A ****

lmao! <3 allied

 

[Chuee]

I think having a negative affect on metagame health and player satisfaction is a perfectly fine reason to ban him, and is the reason I switched to pro ban in the first place. A lot of people have been saying, "Suck it up scrubs" lately, and I feel like if this attitude is continued instead of killing MK, we'll kill Brawl all together.

DK has moves that are safe on block and can effectively force D3 into the air and not get grabbed while using DownB. Once D3 is in the air, DK can fight him with his Bair, and if he pushes D3 to a ledge or offstage, he can continue to wrack up massive damage, and then punish D3's recovery with deadly kill moves. It's a very bad MU even still, it's not but incomparable to D3 vs Falco or ICs at all.

Falco boards have D3 as 60-40 and I think D3's have been saying the MU isn't that bad for awhile now.
Now tell me how D3 v DK is comparable to a 60-40 MU.

 

[Allied]

LOL @ ^ !
And I think Ally's MK is pretty good.

Got em haha :3

 

[Luigi player]

Wait if DK is unviable because D3 counters him... and D3 gets countered by Falco/ICs/Pika/whatever... it means D3 is inviable too! And it means DK is viable because D3 is inviable o_O though Falco, ICs and Pika can get countered too.. wtf! They're all unviable. What a stupid game.

 

[RDK]

I think having a negative affect on metagame health and player satisfaction is a perfectly fine reason to ban him, and is the reason I switched to pro ban in the first place. A lot of people have been saying, "Suck it up scrubs" lately, and I feel like if this attitude is continued instead of killing MK, we'll kill Brawl all together.

But I just showed with my post that it's not an objective way of deciding who or what to ban. No, I don't seriously think that CF is a negative factor to the metagame, and no I wouldn't say it to you in person with a straight face.

But in a week, or a month, or a year, or who know's how long, after the metagame evolves due to MK being banned, another character or something is going to pop up that people are going to want to ban for the same exact reasons people are using here. It's not objective, it's drawing lines in the sand. People's opinions don't matter because nobody can come up with a strong consensus opinion.

Let me ask you something; to the nearest hundred people, how many would you say would actually support banning MK?

DK has moves that are safe on block and can effectively force D3 into the air and not get grabbed while using DownB. Once D3 is in the air, DK can fight him with his Bair, and if he pushes D3 to a ledge or offstage, he can continue to wrack up massive damage, and then punish D3's recovery with deadly kill moves. It's a very bad MU even still, it's not but incomparable to D3 vs Falco or ICs at all.

Well I guess we're going to just have to disagree here. DK vs. D3 is the worst mathcup in the game IMO. All it takes is one mistake for DK and he's done.

 

[Pierce7d]

*backwards
Also DK is slightly stronger, slightly heavier, has more kill options (more = better), and slightly better range


If I remember correctly, Snake's ftilt goes through Marth's Fair, don't remember though =/
Marth can definitely avoid utilt really well with spaced Fairs.
I don't see how Marth would do better against Snake than mk. Mk has better juggling and better offstage options on snake.

EDIT: Snake's DA is atrocious on shield. It's a lot better when they're in the air, but if they AD it you're ****ed.

You cannot reliably space a stationary ground move against the likes of Marth's mobility. Snake's Dash Attack closes a lot of distance very quickly and it is unadvisable to airdodge for no reason and very hard or impossible to punish on reaction if timed and spaced correctly. Additionally, it can hit you on your 5 frames of landing lag (or 8 if you auto-cancel an aerial), just punishing landing really well. Since Marth has to jump a lot, this is a viable strategy. Also, if Marth swing Fair and Snake swings ftilt in blank space for zoning, Marth wins since his Fair is more disjointed. Coupled with grenades, this move is solid. That's not even accounting for it's ability to cancel into Usmash.

-is also salty his marth got beat 3-1 by my mk in a 5$ MM-

^^ Is mad that I ***** his Diddy with Mario in a money match just before this, which is why he he challenged me to that match in the first place.

 

[Chuee]

Wait if DK is unviable because D3 counters him... and D3 gets countered by Falco/ICs/Pika/whatever... it means D3 is inviable too! And it means DK is viable because D3 is inviable o_O though Falco, ICs and Pika can get countered too.. wtf! They're all unviable. What a stupid game.

Having a few 6-4 MU's doesn't make D3 unviable. Better luck next time DK player.

 

[RDK]

It's not quite "pick MK or lose", which is overcentralizing

Fixed that for you Jack.