Why MK should NOT be banned (the opinion from someone who actually fights them)

[Remzi]

Here's Johnny!

 

[ADHD]

I dunno, the stuff about his GF, that sort of crossed the line and you sort of didn't quite get to crossing it twice...


I only heard it secondhand, but it did sound a bit psychotic, though I understood better then most cause I was there the last time you placed top... and didn't see a cent.

Ugh, this crap. I said nothing about his girlfriend.

 

[Maniclysane]

It's great for the elite players to say, "Oh, well, I personally can deal with MK, so I don't think he should be banned." Good for them. I bet if MK is banned, they will still win tournaments. I'm sure ADHD will be winning. I'm sure Ally and DEHF will too. Banning MK will bring even more interest to Brawl and will only make the first prize pot even larger. Instead of the rest of the community (who are low -> mid level players) getting disgusted with MK and quitting, they'll stick with the game and go to more tournaments, meaning more harmony in the community and more money for pros.

Of course it's great for elite players. Elite players are the ones that matter. They have put their time and dedication into the game so they could become better. Probably one of the biggest chunks ADHD and Ally have put in, is their remarkable ability to beat MK. Obviously, that means that you have to put time and effort into beating him.

You're basically crying casual. Instead of learning how to beat wave dashing, l-canceling and the like, you cry and say it should be removed. Sakurai removed them from the game, dumbing it down. You cry about MK being too good, saying he should be removed.

He's an integral part of the game. You're not good enough to realize that.

 

[6Mizu]

Of course it's great for elite players. Elite players are the ones that matter. They have put their time and dedication into the game so they could become better. Probably one of the biggest chunks ADHD and Ally have put in, is their remarkable ability to beat MK. Obviously, that means that you have to put time and effort into beating him.

You're basically crying casual. Instead of learning how to beat wave dashing, l-canceling and the like, you cry and say it should be removed. Sakurai removed them from the game, dumbing it down. You cry about MK being too good, saying he should be removed.

He's an integral part of the game. You're not good enough to realize that.

NM changed my mind again. I believe that ^.
MK shouldn't be banned. As much as I don't like it it's true.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Wait, what happened?

This happened.


His first top placing in a national tournament too.

Ugh, this crap. I said nothing about his girlfriend.

Ok, well then one of you two definitely has selective memory in regards to the incident.


Regardless, the fact that you intended it as a joke and that you got screwed over last time, yea I think that puts you in the clear on this,

 

[Rybaia]

Here's Johnny!

Johnny?!?!

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Somewhat unrelated: I heard the hardest match-up was Ganon v Shiek [IIRC Ganon can't get past Shiek's chain and ftilt screws Ganon hard]. But my memory might not be accurate, so take it as you will.

 

[Kewkky]

Of course it's great for elite players. Elite players are the ones that matter. They have put their time and dedication into the game so they could become better. Probably one of the biggest chunks ADHD and Ally have put in, is their remarkable ability to beat MK. Obviously, that means that you have to put time and effort into beating him.

You seem to be extremely ignorant to the fact that the most used players in any anti-ban arguments are 2 of the top 3 players in America (arguably the world, who knows?), and that they both use characters that have arguably dead even matchups against MK meaning that their victories in tourneys are directly attributed to them outskilling their opponents, including MKs who I repeat, are even matchups to them, completely depending on who has the higher skill between both players. Their time and dedication to the game clearly points out this fact. However, as I asked in my previous post here, I would like to see what effects their games would take if they used a character who hasn't been shown to have a way around MK's gay tactics, apart from "changing mains to prove that my character isn't 2nd best" a la Ally.

You're basically crying casual. Instead of learning how to beat wave dashing, l-canceling and the like, you cry and say it should be removed. Sakurai removed them from the game, dumbing it down. You cry about MK being too good, saying he should be removed.

You've got the whole thing wrong. Some of us have spent time learning what we can do and can't do against MK, what can be punished and actually do it mid-match (in the forums it will all sound like theorycrafting, but I myself pull off everything that I've said Kirby can do to MK. For example, I shieldgrab MK's spaced fairs and MK's ftilt between the 2nd/3rd hits AND after the 3rd hit I ftilt for easy damage regardless of spacing), yet we still KNOW that MK remains having the unfair advantage that are his overuse of 'gay tactics' and the strong offensive game to maintain a lead. Pit/Wario/Falco/camper may do the same gay things, but they sure as hell don't have one of the strongest offensive games to back it up, not one of the best movesets, nor some of the best gimping moves, nor incredible recovery options...

L-Cancel and wavedash, who complains about those? Casuals who can't adapt to the competitive scene are the only ones who do so, and some of us who complain about MK are already influential in the current competitive scene. L-Cancel and Wavedash would best be compared to DACUS and glide-tossing since they're essentially exploits of the game's design. MK isn't an exploit, and his "gay tactics that players keep doing by bending rules over and over again" are. Players have done nothing to keep MK mainers under control due to MK being easy to bend rules to his whim, nor have any TOs (aside from Xyro, and he has proved that his attendance increased while he ran MK-Banned tourneys). Even some of YOU people who are talking in this thread aren't influential in the current tourney scene, yet you all talk about top players as if you were one of them and use them to back up your arguments, when you should be out there proving your own arguments true (that MK can be consistently beaten mid-tourney with a good amount of characters, not just Snake/Diddy).

He's an integral part of the game. You're not good enough to realize that.

And so are the lower-skilled players in the tourney scene! Without them, where will the money for the top players go? Hell even some of the top players have complained in some way or another! Ally got timed out by M2K at Pound4, and he said that "he lost his respect for M2K" due to the gayness of M2K's playstyle, and how he has done nothing to prove his own arguments that "MK isn't gay enough to be banned". Hell, what he has done in recent tourneys is the compelte opposite: by playing gay and timing out people, and by enforcing the gay tactics which are greatly complimented by MK's great offensive game (one of the best offenses + the best defense? Veeeeery unbalanced if you ask me) he is pissing off even the players who used to beat him when he was at his prime.

If M2K wants to stop losing, he shouldn't play gay (as seen in his matches at Pound4's GF) and instead he should concentrate on Brawl and Brawl alone, instead of Brawl and Melee. Whatever players want to say on how "the skill decrease you get when switching from Brawl to Melee and vice-versa can be overcome with enough time", it isn't true and your skill will always keep being affected, what's really happening is that you're accepting your current lowered skill as your optimum skill, thus creating the illusion that you have "overcome" the game-switching decrease in skill.

 

[Allied]

THE HARDEST MATCHUP IS MK VS EVERYONE DUHHH

you dont know anything bro

 

[Maniclysane]

You seem to be extremely ignorant to the fact that the most used players in any anti-ban arguments are 2 of the top 3 players in America (arguably the world, who knows?), and that they both use characters that have arguably dead even matchups against MK meaning that their victories in tourneys are directly attributed to them outskilling their opponents, including MKs who I repeat, are even matchups to them, completely depending on who has the higher skill between both players. Their time and dedication to the game clearly points out this fact. However, as I asked in my previous post here, I would like to see what effects their games would take if they used a character who hasn't been shown to have a way around MK's gay tactics, apart from "changing mains to prove that my character isn't 2nd best" a la Ally.


You've got the whole thing wrong. Some of us have spent time learning what we can do and can't do against MK, what can be punished and actually do it mid-match (in the forums it will all sound like theorycrafting, but I myself pull off everything that I've said Kirby can do to MK. For example, I shieldgrab MK's spaced fairs and MK's ftilt between the 2nd/3rd hits AND after the 3rd hit I ftilt for easy damage regardless of spacing), yet we still KNOW that MK remains having the unfair advantage that are his overuse of 'gay tactics' and the strong offensive game to maintain a lead. Pit/Wario/Falco/camper may do the same gay things, but they sure as hell don't have one of the strongest offensive games to back it up, not one of the best movesets, nor some of the best gimping moves, nor incredible recovery options...

L-Cancel and wavedash, who complains about those? Casuals who can't adapt to the competitive scene are the only ones who do so, and some of us who complain about MK are already influential in the current competitive scene. L-Cancel and Wavedash would best be compared to DACUS and glide-tossing since they're essentially exploits of the game's design. MK isn't an exploit, and his "gay tactics that players keep doing by bending rules over and over again" are. Players have done nothing to keep MK mainers under control due to MK being easy to bend rules to his whim, nor have any TOs (aside from Xyro, and he has proved that his attendance increased while he ran MK-Banned tourneys). Even some of YOU people who are talking in this thread aren't influential in the current tourney scene, yet you all talk about top players as if you were one of them and use them to back up your arguments, when you should be out there proving your own arguments true (that MK can be consistently beaten mid-tourney with a good amount of characters, not just Snake/Diddy).


And so are the lower-skilled players in the tourney scene! Without them, where will the money for the top players go? Hell even some of the top players have complained in some way or another! Ally got timed out by M2K at Pound4, and he said that "he lost his respect for M2K" due to the gayness of M2K's playstyle, and how he has done nothing to prove his own arguments that "MK isn't gay enough to be banned". Hell, what he has done in recent tourneys is the compelte opposite: by playing gay and timing out people, and by enforcing the gay tactics which are greatly complimented by MK's great offensive game (one of the best offenses + the best defense? Veeeeery unbalanced if you ask me) he is pissing off even the players who used to beat him when he was at his prime.

If M2K wants to stop losing, he shouldn't play gay (as seen in his matches at Pound4's GF) and instead he should concentrate on Brawl and Brawl alone, instead of Brawl and Melee. Whatever players want to say on how "the skill decrease you get when switching from Brawl to Melee and vice-versa can be overcome with enough time", it isn't true and your skill will always keep being affected, what's really happening is that you're accepting your current lowered skill as your optimum skill, thus creating the illusion that you have "overcome" the game-switching decrease in skill.

tl;d r

 

[Eddie G]

Elite players are the ones that matter.

You're a fool.

The community is mainly comprised of low-mid level players. If the majority of them become disgusted with what Brawl has become (MK centralized play and tournament results, only top Diddys and Snakes keeping up with him, etc.) then it will get smaller and smaller.

So answer me this without spewing a boatload of elitist garbage. WHO will the top players matter to if there is ultimately LITTLE TO NO SCENE remaining? HOW will they make their money and WHO will provide that cash-making opportunity/attendance for the events?

If you cater and pay attention only to the tip-top of the scene then that is what the scene will eventually degrade to, just those at the top and maybe a couple hundred of die-hard fans who remain (either because they main MK or because they can somehow still put up with the game), then that means the scene will have FAILED after only a couple/few years of life because of close-minded *******s like you.

...let's just say you'd make for one ****ty TO if you ever become one.

 

[RDK]

And so are the lower-skilled players in the tourney scene! Without them, where will the money for the top players go? Hell even some of the top players have complained in some way or another! Ally got timed out by M2K at Pound4, and he said that "he lost his respect for M2K" due to the gayness of M2K's playstyle, and how he has done nothing to prove his own arguments that "MK isn't gay enough to be banned". Hell, what he has done in recent tourneys is the compelte opposite: by playing gay and timing out people, and by enforcing the gay tactics which are greatly complimented by MK's great offensive game (one of the best offenses + the best defense? Veeeeery unbalanced if you ask me) he is pissing off even the players who used to beat him when he was at his prime.

If M2K wants to stop losing, he shouldn't play gay (as seen in his matches at Pound4's GF) and instead he should concentrate on Brawl and Brawl alone, instead of Brawl and Melee. Whatever players want to say on how "the skill decrease you get when switching from Brawl to Melee and vice-versa can be overcome with enough time", it isn't true and your skill will always keep being affected, what's really happening is that you're accepting your current lowered skill as your optimum skill, thus creating the illusion that you have "overcome" the game-switching decrease in skill.

If this is indeed what Ally actually said than he's a johner.

If anybody used that same reasoning - calling tactics "gay" - in the Melee days, they'd get laughed out of a tournament.

If it's so gay and easy then Ally should be using that same technique against M2K. How people think this is an actual argument is beyond me.

 

[Maniclysane]

You're a fool.

The community is mainly comprised of low-mid level players. If the majority of them become disgusted with what Brawl has become (MK centralized play and tournament results, only top Diddys and Snakes keeping up with him, etc.) then it will get smaller and smaller.

So answer me this without spewing a boatload of elitist garbage. WHO will the top players matter to if there is ultimately LITTLE TO NO SCENE remaining? HOW will they make their money and WHO will provide that cash-making opportunity/attendance for the events?

If you cater and pay attention only to the tip-top of the scene then that is what the scene will eventually degrade to, just those at the top and the couple hundred die-hard fans who remain (either because they main MK or because they can somehow still put up with the game), then that means the scene will have FAILED after only a couple/few years of life because of close-minded *******s like you.

...let's just say you'd make for one ****ty TO if you ever become one.

My argument is catering to the people who put themselves into this game.. The rules should not cater to the people who put less work into Smash. The tip top of the scene is made up of people who are the best. MK is beatable. ADHD beat M2K, the best MK player. I dunno who Ally was using but ADHD beat him too (Tossup between 2nd and 1st best, bite me).

Telling me MK should be banned when clearly the best MK player is being beat by someone using a different character is just close-mindedness. Understand that ADHD isn't just naturally good at smash. He put time into it and entered countless tournaments before he got to this level where he can beat pro's. You should try putting that time in too.

Everyone who wants MK banned should.

Also: I care about new players. I care about them so much, that I want them to get better. I don't want to give them the easy way out, because lazy people aren't the ones I care about. Banning MK for the new players just makes it easy for them. Giving them the easy way out isn't care, it's babying.

 

[Dekar173]

Kewkky is definitely the best Kirby I've seen play the MK match-up.

I didn't know that Kirby COULD punish half of the **** that he was during friendlies (even Havok, a top ranked MK player remarked on just how god **** good kewkky is at the MK match-up).

Why does this matter? Well, he's a VERY GOOD player, who probably has less problems playing against MK than most of the US, and yet he STILL thinks there needs to be a ban (even though there will DEFINITELY be an influx of tougher match-up characters for Kirby afterward, Diddy and Olimar, namely).

@maniclysane- M2K is the best MK, but I'd HONESTLY rank him as one of the WORST MKs against Diddy. A win against M2K using Diddy is by no means an accomplishment. I'm more impressed with ADHD having beaten all of those other players as Diddy than I am by him beating M2K.

M2K always throws bananas up after you catch just one.

After being tripped he ALWAYS regular get ups.

He RARELY pressures Diddy offstage (this is where MK has the GREATEST advantage).

He messes up at catching the bananas, even though he's amazing at catching turnips in melee...

tl;dr someone beating M2K with Diddy means jack ****.

 

[Eddie G]

My argument is catering to the people who put themselves into this game.. The rules should not cater to the people who put less work into Smash. The tip top of the scene is made up of people who are the best. MK is beatable. ADHD beat M2K, the best MK player. I dunno who Ally was using but ADHD beat him too (Tossup between 2nd and 1st best, bite me).

Telling me MK should be banned when clearly the best MK player is being beat by someone using a different character is just close-mindedness. Understand that ADHD isn't just naturally good at smash. He put time into it and entered countless tournaments before he got to this level where he can beat pro's. You should try putting that time in too.

Everyone who wants MK banned should.

...Alright, I'll play it your way. Who are you and where have you placed? What have you placed in and who did you place with? Who are the noteworthy players that you've defeated? I haven't seen a Maniclysane place ANY****INGWHERE or in ANY****INGTHING.

By the looks of it you're just some forum dweller who likes to spew bull**** in the faces of players who ACTUALLY ATTEND TOURNAMENTS and who DO PUT TONS OF WORK INTO MATCHUPS. Natural skill DOES have a heavy influence on how a player progresses (ADHD, or most top players, being a good example of that), and you're a fool for dismissing such a clear part of a player's progression.

Oh, and Ally wants MK banned and he's beaten M2K. Funny, try to find a better argument. You don't seem to be very aware of anything regarding the actual scene or its players.

There, I can throw ******** elitist monkey-blowing arguments in your face too. Only difference: I GO to tournaments REGULARLY.

 

[MarKO X]

If this is indeed what Ally actually said than he's a johner.

If anybody used that same reasoning - calling tactics "gay" - in the Melee days, they'd get laughed out of a tournament.

If it's so gay and easy then Ally should be using that same technique against M2K. How people think this is an actual argument is beyond me.

holy ****

logic

edit: if it's so gay and easy, then EVERYONE should be using the same technique against everyone...

 

[Maniclysane]

Kewkky is definitely the best Kirby I've seen play the MK match-up.

I didn't know that Kirby COULD punish half of the **** that he was during friendlies (even Havok, a top ranked MK player remarked on just how god **** good kewkky is at the MK match-up).

Why does this matter? Well, he's a VERY GOOD player, who probably has less problems playing against MK than most of the US, and yet he STILL thinks there needs to be a ban (even though there will DEFINITELY be an influx of tougher match-up characters for Kirby afterward, Diddy and Olimar, namely).

@maniclysane- M2K is the best MK, but I'd HONESTLY rank him as one of the WORST MKs against Diddy. A win against M2K using Diddy is by no means an accomplishment. I'm more impressed with ADHD having beaten all of those other players as Diddy than I am by him beating M2K.

M2K always throws bananas up after you catch just one.

After being tripped he ALWAYS regular get ups.

He RARELY pressures Diddy offstage (this is where MK has the GREATEST advantage).

He messes up at catching the bananas, even though he's amazing at catching turnips in melee...

tl;dr someone beating M2K with Diddy means jack ****.

Yeah because the only character M2K has ever lost to was Diddy.

Apex bro. Lost to Ally using Snake. Wouldn't be surprised if he's lost to him other times before. I forget who but some Wario player (Reflex?) beat him too. ADHD beats other MK's too and he's the best Diddy. Maybe Diddy is an MK counter? It could be any of those things. Ally beats MK's too. Reflex too.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Understand that ADHD isn't just naturally good at smash. He put time into it and entered countless tournaments before he got to this level where he can beat pro's. You should try putting that time in too.

Everyone who wants MK banned should.

Well, this is a decent argument. On the other hand what about the countless MK players? Obviously the ones that lose a lot have room for improvement. Even m2k does despite him being naturally good at smash. So we have ppl using other characters that put lots of time and effort to get where they are now, chances are that some of them are at the peak of their game. I garuntee you that MK is NOT at the peak of his game and even the best players that use him will improve a lot more and will rarely lose.

Get better? Ofcourse, but don't think MK is being a couch potato while it happens.

 

[Allied]

lol i like how dekar says beating m2k with diddy isn't a accomplishment when the only diddy that really beats him IS JUST ADHD

haha

thats like saying "Beating Justin Wong with Zangief isnt a accomplishment because he sucks at the matchup" even tho only 1 zangief main is beating him and thats really all biased

also on you picking up on m2k's habits you dont know whats going on during the match to him maybe its his best option, maybe its during a certain situation that will make him take less damage or avoid better

don't speak for m2k lol

kewky is a pretty cool tho

 

[ElDominio]

Also: I care about new players. I care about them so much, that I want them to get better. I don't want to give them the easy way out, because lazy people aren't the ones I care about. Banning MK for the new players just makes it easy for them. Giving them the easy way out isn't care, it's babying.

Not really, because it frustrates most of us to the point of either maining MK, or seconding him. We literally get so frustrated that it makes us want to eat our own eyes out while injecting our hats into our bloodstream while screaming like little babies, plus, it just makes us dislike the game because our favorite character is mostly defenseless against MK. We just go "oh well, we might as well just main MK because that way, I don't need to learn 60 different things about how to counter, and we get the upside of being capable of beating virtually everyone with little to no idea on how to actually play the MU." For me, it's just do some tornadoes, then plank the F out until the timer runs out.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Using MK is not as easy as you say but whatever...

 

[MarKO X]

And what exactly is wrong with picking up MK (best character in the game) and winning?

Edit: lol. MK takes about 15-30 minutes of self-training and 3 good matches before he's better than whatever character you mained before.

 

[Maniclysane]

...Alright, I'll play it your way. Who are you and where have you placed? What have you placed in and who did you place with? Who are the noteworthy players that you've defeated? I haven't seen a Maniclysane place ANY****INGWHERE or in ANY****INGTHING.

By the looks of it you're just some forum dweller who likes to spew bull**** in the faces of players who ACTUALLY ATTEND TOURNAMENTS and who DO PUT TONS OF WORK INTO MATCHUPS. Natural skill DOES have a heavy influence on how a player progresses (ADHD, or most top players, being a good example of that), and you're a fool for dismissing such a clear part of a player's progression.

Oh, and Ally wants MK banned and he's beaten M2K. Funny, try to find a better argument. You don't seem to be very aware of anything regarding the actual scene or its players.

There, I can throw ******** elitist monkey-blowing arguments in your face too. Only difference: I GO to tournaments REGULARLY.

Geez stop calling me names and respond to my argument. You're beginning to hurt my feelings.

I really don't have much to respond to since it's a lot of bold and swearing. My condolences though, tourettes can be hard to deal with.

And what exactly is wrong with picking up MK (best character in the game) and winning?

That's a very good question without a very good answer.

 

[AvaricePanda]

...Alright, I'll play it your way. Who are you and where have you placed? What have you placed in and who did you place with? Who are the noteworthy players that you've defeated? I haven't seen a Maniclysane place ANY****INGWHERE or in ANY****INGTHING.

By the looks of it you're just some forum dweller who likes to spew bull**** in the faces of players who ACTUALLY ATTEND TOURNAMENTS and who DO PUT TONS OF WORK INTO MATCHUPS. Natural skill DOES have a heavy influence on how a player progresses (ADHD, or most top players, being a good example of that), and you're a fool for dismissing such a clear part of a player's progression.

Oh, and Ally wants MK banned and he's beaten M2K. Funny, try to find a better argument. You don't seem to be very aware of anything regarding the actual scene or its players.

There, I can throw ******** elitist monkey-blowing arguments in your face too. Only difference: I GO to tournaments REGULARLY.

Seriously though, chill out. There's absolutely no reason to insult somebody you don't even know over this non-issue. You didn't even bring anything that hasn't been said up. Pretty much nothing that's been said in this thread is new and has been said 6 months ago when the last Ban MK poll happened, so I'm not sure why people are getting so defensive over it all like they've just now seen these arguments.

Also, why does attending tournaments matter as much as you're putting it (at least, it matters enough for you to justify flaming somebody else)? If I suddenly go to 6 tournaments the next 6 weekends, is my opinion more viable even if it's the exact same opinion I had? Obviously not. Going to tournaments doesn't magically make somebody analyze the game better. You can go to all the tournaments you want to and still be ignorant to a lot of things that go on in the game, so that's a very moot point.

Calm down.

 

[Dekar173]

lol i like how dekar says beating m2k with diddy isn't a accomplishment when the only diddy that really beats him IS JUST ADHD

haha

thats like saying "Beating Justin Wong with Zangief isnt a accomplishment because he sucks at the matchup" even tho only 1 zangief main is beating him and thats really all biased

also on you picking up on m2k's habits you dont know whats going on during the match to him maybe its his best option, maybe its during a certain situation that will make him take less damage or avoid better

don't speak for m2k lol

kewky is a pretty cool tho

I was beating the **** out of him in friendlies right before he played ADHD at Pound, this is ALSO talking about watching him play other Diddys (99-stock, play for a while, M2K would be down in stocks EVERY time I looked and saw how they were going).

He blows at the match-up, he's even said so himself.

BUT, when he does learn the match-up, it'll be all over for every single one of us Diddy mains, unfortunately.

@Avarice- if you don't go to tourneys, your opinion DOES NOT MATTER. Wanna know why? Because the end result of whatever it is you're arguing about doesn't effect you- AT ALL.

Just like with abortion topics "Omg, someone's getting an abortion, that's wrong, I'll stop them by making it illegal!"

Being that you don't travel whatsoever, and have never been to a tournament (to my knowledge) what does it matter to you whether MK is aborted or not?

 

[adumbrodeus]

You're a fool.

The community is mainly comprised of low-mid level players. If the majority of them become disgusted with what Brawl has become (MK centralized play and tournament results, only top Diddys and Snakes keeping up with him, etc.) then it will get smaller and smaller.

So answer me this without spewing a boatload of elitist garbage. WHO will the top players matter to if there is ultimately LITTLE TO NO SCENE remaining? HOW will they make their money and WHO will provide that cash-making opportunity/attendance for the events?

If you cater and pay attention only to the tip-top of the scene then that is what the scene will eventually degrade to, just those at the top and maybe a couple hundred of die-hard fans who remain (either because they main MK or because they can somehow still put up with the game), then that means the scene will have FAILED after only a couple/few years of life because of close-minded *******s like you.

...let's just say you'd make for one ****ty TO if you ever become one.

I was honestly horrified when I read similar sentiments in the jman/m2k DQ thing.



Regardless, it should be about elite players, it should be about the top of the metagame, which is the top of tech skill.


As I said before, if you've got a 55-45 MU, but you need to learn all sorts of technical things to do it, then at that point lrn2play is a valid argument. You didn't have to be a world-class play to have great execution, heck, the melee scene pretty much thrives on everybody having great execution.


If it's 90-10 at the top of the metagame and people are still telling you lrn2play... then it's ridiculous because people are asking you to be an objectively better player in every sense of the word.

 

[Eddie G]

Seriously though, chill out. There's absolutely no reason to insult somebody you don't even know over this non-issue. You didn't even bring anything that hasn't been said up. Pretty much nothing that's been said in this thread is new and has been said 6 months ago when the last Ban MK poll happened, so I'm not sure why people are getting so defensive over it all like they've just now seen these arguments.

Also, why does attending tournaments matter as much as you're putting it (at least, it matters enough for you to justify flaming somebody else)? If I suddenly go to 6 tournaments the next 6 weekends, is my opinion more viable even if it's the exact same opinion I had? Obviously not. Going to tournaments doesn't magically make somebody analyze the game better. You can go to all the tournaments you want to and still be ignorant to a lot of things that go on in the game, so that's a very moot point.

Calm down.

Seriously though, I am calm.

I just presented to him an argument in his own format, just not cleverly disguised. He's trolling cautiously enough to insult others without outright flaming them. And did you not see his "tl;dr" response to Kewkky's post? Was there even a point for that? No, he just felt like trolling. Hence the "...alright, I'll play it your way" I began the post with.

Attending tournaments matters just as much as any "top player only" example anti-ban loves to spew. Simple as that.

I am calm.

 

[Maniclysane]

Not really, because it frustrates most of us to the point of either maining MK, or seconding him. We literally get so frustrated that it makes us want to eat our own eyes out while injecting our hats into our bloodstream while screaming like little babies, plus, it just makes us dislike the game because our favorite character is mostly defenseless against MK. We just go "oh well, we might as well just main MK because that way, I don't need to learn 60 different things about how to counter, and we get the upside of being capable of beating virtually everyone with little to no idea on how to actually play the MU." For me, it's just do some tornadoes, then plank the F out until the timer runs out.

Sorry I missed your post.

Being frustrated is probably something you're going to have to deal with. I'm not very good either. The last tournament I went I got dead last in. I still enjoyed every moment of that tournament, and I play smash because I enjoy it. I love Brawl. I don't want to play Brawl+, Brawl-, Melee 2.0, or Brawl-but-no-MK. It's a different game to me. MK is a pain in the *** that just getting rid of isn't the solution.

My favorite character to play is Jigglypuff and she doesn't do so well against MK either :/. I usually play Pokemon Trainer against MK and do better than I do against MK with Jigglypuff (I think Squirtle vs. MK is dead even and Charizard vs. MK is 60:40 MK). Losing is a part of learning, the same way mistakes are. I know I'm going to be losing but unless I'm taking the time to understand why i'm losing i'll never get better. I've analyzed what i've been doing, and what others have been doing to try and get a better understanding. I have no doubt ADHD had done the same and look where he is now. Granted he's using a better character than Pokemon trainer, but I don't even know where I'm going with this. Just keep losing and don't blame your character, eventually you'll probably start to win.

No, he just felt like trolling.

No johns. Calling my argument trolling doesn't make it any less true, trolling or not. Besides, if he really wants me to argue with him taking a two paragraph post and inflating it into a page long essay isn't the best way to do that. If he really wants me to go paragraph to paragraph with counterpoints I guess I will.

 

[Eddie G]

I was honestly horrified when I read similar sentiments in the jman/m2k DQ thing.



Regardless, it should be about elite players, it should be about the top of the metagame, which is the top of tech skill.


As I said before, if you've got a 55-45 MU, but you need to learn all sorts of technical things to do it, then at that point lrn2play is a valid argument. You didn't have to be a world-class play to have great execution, heck, the melee scene pretty much thrives on everybody having great execution.


If it's 90-10 at the top of the metagame and people are still telling you lrn2play... then it's ridiculous because people are asking you to be an objectively better player in every sense of the word.

I know.

I only stress the futility of said focus if there is no scene to implement it on as time passes. Sure, it's logical to view things by the best examples (the top players of the characters) set for them, but what scene will there be for them to have dominance over?

By all means, focus on what all of you choose, but don't say you're weren't forewarned of the undesirable side-affect.

Logic=favorable. Sometimes, too much of a good thing can be bad. That's as simple as I can make it.

No johns. Calling my argument trolling doesn't make it any less true, trolling or not.

Since when is "tl;dr" by itself a legitimate response to an argument? Since, you know, that is what my statement you quoted had addressed.

 

[RDK]

Attending tournaments matters just as much as any "top player only" example anti-ban loves to spew. Simple as that.

I am calm.

No it doesn't. How are you unable to grasp such a simple concept?

Matchups are determined at the highest level of play; not some random scrub's idea of what makes a character broken. Also, whether or not someone attends a tournament doesn't change the truth of their argument. The truth is you don't want to put effort into the game. You're lazy and pissed off that you have to work around MK players, and you want to ban him so you can continue to play as "X" character.

You're a lazy whiner, as is the majority of pro-ban.

Sometimes I feel like everyone who says they attend Brawl tournaments are 12 year olds who haven't developed a rudimentary sense of logic yet.

 

[napZzz]

so in whats considered the only 5/5 matchup with mk, it takes the best player of that character to be able to barely beat all these players...

yeah, you're really making your side of the argument look much better for the ones who want him banned.

 

[AvaricePanda]

@Avarice- if you don't go to tourneys, your opinion DOES NOT MATTER. Wanna know why? Because the end result of whatever it is you're arguing about doesn't effect you- AT ALL.

Just like with abortion topics "Omg, someone's getting an abortion, that's wrong, I'll stop them by making it illegal!"

Being that you don't travel whatsoever, and have never been to a tournament (to my knowledge) what does it matter to you whether MK is aborted or not?

I've been to only one tournament thus far, but I'm going to two (possibly 3 if I can get enough money before then) in February. I never planned on not going to tournaments in the future. Pretty much anywhere in a 2 hour radius is fair game as of now if my older sister's off and can take me (which covers Indianapolis obviously since I live there, Cincinnati, Springfield, Louisville, Lafayette and SMYM in Illinois for Melee).

Having marching band over the summer as well as being 13 a year ago and 14 now, meaning I'm reliant on permission and transportation to go to anything, kind of restricts me from going anywhere, but I pretty much try as hard as I possibly can to go to any tournament within feasible distance. It's not as if it's absurd to think that I can't go to more when I'm older either--and there's nothing to signify that Smash will have died by then.

That all being said, the fact that someone may have never gone to a tournament still doesn't detract from the argument they present. It's expected that less people will respect or take his statements as seriously as compared to if a well known pro said the argument, but it doesn't let you completely dismiss whatever they said because, "lol you've never been to a tournament."

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

How do you even come to this conclusion? ADHD beats MKs, therefore, MK isn't broken. Need I remind you of the Pound 4 results?
ADHD, MK, MK, MK, MK, MK, Olimar (he didn't have to play any MKs in his bracket), MK.

ADHD's incredibly good. What other Diddy has shown such skill? In fact, what other player has shown such skill to beat MK?? Ally, ADHD, DEHF. That's THREE people. Guess what? The Brawl community is not made up of THREE people. It's stupid to say "Oh, the absolute best players can deal with MK," because the few absolute best players who don't already play MK are not representative of the Brawl community! And how do these best players make their money? Why, scrubs like you and me feeding the pot.

It's great for the elite players to say, "Oh, well, I personally can deal with MK, so I don't think he should be banned." Good for them. I bet if MK is banned, they will still win tournaments. I'm sure ADHD will be winning. I'm sure Ally and DEHF will too. Banning MK will bring even more interest to Brawl and will only make the first prize pot even larger. Instead of the rest of the community (who are low -> mid level players) getting disgusted with MK and quitting, they'll stick with the game and go to more tournaments, meaning more harmony in the community and more money for pros.

^^^ This makes sense. Even if match-ups are determined @ the highest level of play, we have to think about the community, because the characters don't make the game, but the community does. MK has stagnated meta games of low and mid tier characters. Many are afraid of learning the character they like solely because of MK.

If we want to see the results of MK banned, maybe we should ban him for 6 months and see what happens.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I know.

I only stress the futility of said focus if there is no scene to implement it on as time passes. Sure, it's logical to view things by the best examples (the top players of the characters) set for them, but what scene will there be for them to have dominance over?

By all means, focus on what all of you choose, but don't say you're weren't forewarned of the undesirable side-affect.

Logic=favorable. Sometimes, too much of a good thing can be bad. That's as simple as I can make it.

I think you missed my point, the top of the metagame isn't defined by top players (I even stated before that for example, there's no IC players even close since they drop chaingrabs all the time).


Choosing top of humanly possible technical ability saves us from having to draw an arbitrary line and it also means that anyone can get there with practice.


It's when it requires you to be objectively better then your opponent by a wide margin that it causes issues.



So, basically, I'm saying ignore the top players too.

 

[napZzz]

Anyone who hasn't been to at least a few tournaments recently and or traveled should stop posting in this thread imo.

beautiful post by nicole btw. IT sums everything up.

 

[RDK]

Anyone who hasn't been to at least a few tournaments recently and or traveled should stop posting in this thread imo.

beautiful post by nicole btw. IT sums everything up.

Have you even read the past few pages?

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Well, this is a decent argument. On the other hand what about the countless MK players? Obviously the ones that lose a lot have room for improvement. Even m2k does despite him being naturally good at smash. So we have ppl using other characters that put lots of time and effort to get where they are now, chances are that some of them are at the peak of their game. I garuntee you that MK is NOT at the peak of his game and even the best players that use him will improve a lot more and will rarely lose.

Get better? Ofcourse, but don't think MK is being a couch potato while it happens.

Quoting because no one read it.

 

[Eddie G]

No it doesn't. How are you unable to grasp such a simple concept?

Matchups are determined at the highest level of play; not some random scrub's idea of what makes a character broken. Also, whether or not someone attends a tournament doesn't change the truth of their argument. The truth is you don't want to put effort into the game. You're lazy and pissed off that you have to work around MK players, and you want to ban him so you can continue to play as "X" character.

You're a lazy whiner, as is the majority of pro-ban.

Sometimes I feel like everyone who says they attend Brawl tournaments are 12 year olds who haven't developed a rudimentary sense of logic yet.

You're a bold one I see.

Yep, that's why I've studied the MK matchup numerous times, practiced with high placing MK players in Ohio, and worked around the matchup enough thus far to take Overswarm to last stock and to take a match off of Kel's MK (which in and of itself is a hell of an accomplishment for a Peach player). I've practiced and consistently performed a method for breaking out of nado and punishing MK in the process, learned that her D-tilt keeps me safe from his OoS options (including his f-tilt, and grants me a free turnip pull from the slide backwards in the process), and I have begun to consistently bait and/or punish him out of his shuttle loop. I've put forth a lot of effort to learn the matchup with my (previously deemed as unviable by a majority of the community) character and continue to do so. The MK matchup doesn't bother me. The character in and of himself, however, does.

I'm a PR player in a state with a tough scene, I've worked hard and have broken down what have been previously difficult matchups one by one, and I continue to place top 5-top 10 at most tournaments I attend in order to get my name out there and be recognized. I'm NOT by any means a lazy player. Astounded by the stupidity in this thread, perhaps.

Your ******** assumptions about me are moot. GGs.

 

[napZzz]

Have you even read the past few pages?

i started reading about 10 pages back before I posted.

 

[Allied]

i read all 43 i win