Why MK should NOT be banned (the opinion from someone who actually fights them)

[Nicole]

People quit the game everyday because of MK. People who threaten to quit the game (who are pros) who play MK will probably not actually quit the game. They make money at it. Do you guys really think they're going to give up their winnings? Instead of getting a real job, they get to make money playing a game they like. Pros who are anti ban are just as guilty of whining as pro ban - "If you guys ban MK, I'm qutting." How is that any less gay than the pro ban argument of "MK is gay and broken"?

As for character diversity, if MK is banned, I -THINK- more than 3 or 4 characters can compete. Pretty sure nearly all of A, B, and C tier have a decent chance of becoming viable, if they aren't already. Some characters that could get a significant boost from MK being banned - Peach, Olimar, Marth, GW, ROB, DDD, probably some others I'm forgetting. No character would dominate the metagame like MK does.

 

[Shaya]

Everyone and their dog agrees that MK isn't BROKEN, by his traits, at all.
This is coming from both the anti and pro ban sides.

The intelligent arguments from the pro-ban now are only related to the effects he has on the tournament scene/metagame. Being blatantly ignorant of those points show how little you know Jupz.
It annoys me when people like Jack have such nicely worded posts and arguments that have ONE LINE picked out from an idiot to give reason to throw away the argument.

 

[RDK]

Everyone and their dog agrees that MK isn't BROKEN, by his traits, at all.
This is coming from both the anti and pro ban sides.

The intelligent arguments from the pro-ban now are only related to the effects he has on the tournament scene/metagame. Being blatantly ignorant of those points show how little you know Jupz.
It annoys me when people like Jack have such nicely worded posts and arguments that have ONE LINE picked out from an idiot to give reason to throw away the argument.

Because Jack has yet to demonstrate why we should completely ban a character just because of the amount of people who p!ss and moan about it.

 

[Albert.]

I thought it was funny how Boxob said "no one good plays with items" or something like that, but M2k has said that he thinks brawl is the most fun as FFA with items on high.

 

[Jack Kieser]

RDK, WTH is in your sig?! That's hilarious; I literally lol'ed when I read it.

 

[Boxob.]

I thought it was funny how Boxob said "no one good plays with items" or something like that, but M2k has said that he thinks brawl is the most fun as FFA with items on high.

I never said "No one good plays with items on".

I said, "No one wants to play that garbage", to which I was proven wrong, and even accepted it as truth, that some people do enjoy playing brawl with items.

SO, I like that you falsely quoted me, while contributing nothing other than a jab at my E-feelings.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I never said "No one good plays with items on".

I said, "No one wants to play that garbage", to which I was proven wrong, and even accepted it as truth, that some people do enjoy playing brawl with items.

SO, I like that you falsely quoted me, while contributing nothing other than a jab at my E-feelings.

The only way to make your E-feelings better is to have someone touch your E-peen. True fax; Wiki it.

 

[Kewkky]

Good lord, I got 11 pages of 40-posts-per-page to read here...

Anyway, i would just like to say this about the OP... I can see it's an argument completely based on ADHD's match results. I want to point out a few things that make it a bad argument in regards to "Why MK should NOT be banned".

1) ADHD is one of the best Brawl players. This could go both ways, and if seen by itself, actually helps his case more than hurts it. It would mean that if you were good enough at Brawl, you could overcome any MK shenanigans easily... But that's not the case here because of the following points.

2) ADHD has beaten lots of top MKs in tourneys and money matches. So, he himself proves that MK is beatable. The attacking argument isn't that "MK is unbeatable", it's more along the lines of "MK is beatable and he being the overall best character in the game clearly acknowledges this, but his overly-defensive tactics make it so that his ability to win bypasses almost every other character's ability to win by a large enough amount for him to be considered the best and obvious choice at winning in a top-level competitive scene". Diddy and Snake are both good choices, but they have abusable flaws... MK doesn't have such 'abusable' flaws to the point that his matchups tip in the opponents' favor, instead he has so many things going for him that his flaws are eventually taken away... Which makes it difficult for anyone who isn't one of the best players to hold up the same record as ADHD.

3) ADHD mains a character who can contend with MK. This would be a good counter-argument for people who don't want MK banned to use, but in reality it's best viewed as an attacking argument from the other side. The best player in the world who is arguing that MK shouldn't be banned is using one of the very few characters to be able to hold his own against almost all of MK's shenanigans... So he is practically highlighting his character for use against MK when the time comes and we find one in the middle of a tournament, which further emphasizes that very few select characters can actually contend against MK at the top levels of play. This game eventually becomes "main the character that has the best chance of beating MK, and secondary a character that can protect your main from his flaws... OR main MK who doesn't need a secondary", so in terms of overcentralization... Yes, the game IS being overcentralized by a character who is the clear best choice for generally any scenario. The fact that ADHD has beaten so many MKs is because of his character, and its ability to contend well against MK.

4) "Diddy vs MK is DEAD EVEN". ADHD himself said this, so he's practically saying that he beat the MKs because he used a character with a matchup so even, that the best player would emerge victorious. This isn't about MK anymore when the statement is brought up, it's more about "who's the best player between these two competitors". The matchup being dead-even gives room for ADHD to have the ability to emerge victorious by simply outplaying his opponents, meaning that MK's shenanigans will have little to no effect on him due to his character's inherent strengths, practically nulling the whole fact that ADHD has beaten so many MKs at top level play. He is one of the best 3 players in America, against top players who aren't one of the top 3 best in America. There is a definite skill difference between the two, and with a character who can hold his own against MK, it's no surprise to me the fact that he's been outplaying MKs everywhere.


To tell you the truth, I would LOVE it if ADHD would want to back up his main argument by using another character to beat MKs THAT ISN'T in the "top triangle": MK, Snake, Diddy... If he would truly believe that his argument isn't flawed in the sense that i have brought up, then clearly he would be able to outplay the MKs with the use of those other characters, right? Clearly the MK shenanigans wouldn't be enough to attain the win in the middle of a match between ADHD's argument-induced main and the top MKs in America, wouldn't you agree?

The main argument in this thread, coming from one of the top 3 players in America, who mains one of the very select few characters (2 IMO, excluding the mirror) that is dead even against MK, who clearly outplays everyone ele due to the difference in skill level, really has no effect on me. I would at LEAST try to digest the OP and see it from their point of view, but there's no way that I can do that right now knowing that the OP is the best Diddy in the world, and one of the top 3 best players in America. If he TRULY wants to make me budge, he should try to hold up his argument with another character... I'm even letting him take his pick, which exclude MK, Snake and Diddy.

 

[Shaya]

Because Jack has yet to demonstrate why we should completely ban a character just because of the amount of people who p!ss and moan about it.

I wasn't aiming that remark at you. However; piss, moan, and gay are definitely not within my reasons to want MK gone.

The point is pretty simple,
Meta Knight banned [may] produces a better competitive game.

Pissing and Moaning just happens to be the result of all of this.

 

[WindMajor]

Because Jack has yet to demonstrate why we should completely ban a character just because of the amount of people who p!ss and moan about it.

He provided an argument like 10 pages ago.

Pros should wipe the floor with non-pros. That's why they are better. But, they should realize that the lower levels of play sustain and pay for their higher levels of play; if both scenes aren't healthy, the entire scene will fail, just like in Tekken 4; the highest levels of play died because the lower levels of play failed. People don't realize that lower levels of play literally do not depend on higher levels of play for sustenance, but higher levels of play are entirely at the mercy of the viability of low levels of play, because without the low-level players... the pots come out to like 200$, and no one can travel OoS for a 200$ pot.

MK kills low-level play. He even jacks up mid-level play. The tournament attendance we have now is mirroring Tekken 4 to a degree that is scary, and we're totally ok with that, which is a problem. I'm sorry, but the pros need to realize that they don't make the community by themselves, and TO's need to realize that without us standing up to change things, the pros are going to walk all over everyone. ADHD may be good, but the very fact that he even thinks one #1 place at a major tournament gives him the clout to shut down everyone else's arguments without bringing anything new to the table speaks volumes.

This is the first post that scratched the argument that I could find. He has better posts somewhere, I'm just lazy.

 

[Darkest Rival]

no need to ban a character.... MK is beatable, the metagame development from a few more characters will show that soon enough.

 

[RDK]

RDK, WTH is in your sig?! That's hilarious; I literally lol'ed when I read it.

Lol read this thread:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9382058#post9382058

Edit: Wow, it got taken down. Well it's quoted here:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=135703

I wasn't aiming that remark at you. However; piss, moan, and gay are definitely not within my reasons to want MK gone.

The point is pretty simple,
Meta Knight banned [may] produces a better competitive game.

Pissing and Moaning just happens to be the result of all of this.

I don't dispute that banning MK will make a better competitive game; it most likely will. But we don't ban things to make matchups more fair, or to make things easier for players who don't want to move out of their comfort zone.

This is the D3 / DK discussion all over again.

 

[Darkest Rival]

everyone should just main MK end of discussion, your sick of getting ***** by him, just use him. not that hard.

 

[C.J.]

everyone should just main MK end of discussion, your sick of getting ***** by him, just use him. not that hard.

That's kind of the point. If it comes down to that, it proves over-centralization...

 

[WindMajor]

If everyone were to main MK, then the game's metagame would turn into MK vs. MK.

The game would be overcentralized on Metaknight. He will be banned.

 

[Shaya]

A better competitive game is more than just match ups RDK.

If it was all about match ups MK wouldn't be a problem.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I don't dispute that banning MK will make a better competitive game; it most likely will. But we don't ban things to make matchups more fair, or to make things easier for players who don't want to move out of their comfort zone.

This is the D3 / DK discussion all over again.

Well, first of all, everytime we ban something, it's to make something more fair, isn't it? Why ban BoE, just to make matchups against D3 more fair? Because we want to.

That's what I don't get. You keep saying "we don't do this/that/the other" as if:

A ) everyone agrees with you
B ) we, as a community, ever want to do the same thing
C ) anyone is holding us accountable

I'm saving money up for Mass Effect 2, and I've told myself that under no circumstances will I spend it... but I'm the only one holding myself to it, because it's a decision I can only make for myself. If I really want to order pizza that day, who's going to punish me? Who's even going to care?

This is why I don't understand your position. If "we" just don't do that sort of thing, is it because the SBR says so? They already say they don't want to be a shadowy organization that passes laws down to us from the mountain. Do we tell ourselves that? If so, then who cares? We can do whatever we want to do, because it's our community, our game. And if it's because anyone outside of the community says so (SRK, Sirlin, Tekken, Mortal Kombat, etc.)... well, they can go screw themselves, because it isn't their game, is it?

 

[Kewkky]

everyone should just main MK end of discussion,

And Brawl will die.

your sick of getting ***** by him,

That's only a symptom of what MK truly is: every character is a flight of stairs, except MK who's an elevator.

just use him.

If I use him to fight against other MKs, and everyone else uses him to fight against other MKs... Then that means everyone will be using MK in the end, fighting against everyone else who uses MK because MK is one of the best defensive characters and arguably the best offensive character, and the best counter for that and every other character is another best defense/arguably best offense... So the game will get immensely boring and unappealing. Why play it at all when it happens? I want to enjoy myself when I pass time participating in a hobby.

not that hard.

I agree, compared to every other character and what they have to endure to reach the point where MK is no longer the threat he was (he's a NEW kind of threat now, with all the planking/scrooging/dair camping/tornado spamming), maining MK himself IS the easiest AND best course of action...!

 

[Darkest Rival]

cant we all just get along?

and kewkky i was being sarcastic... i dont actually want everyone to main mk.

 

[Kewkky]

cant we all just get along?

and kewkky i was being sarcastic... i dont actually want everyone to main mk.

Spoiler

shhhhhhhhh don't make me explain my motives, I know you were being sarcastic cuz the post was small and pretty empty

 

[Tien2500]

So I've been away from Brawl for a while but is there any serious consideration of banning MK?

 

[Jack Kieser]

So I've been away from Brawl for a while but is there any serious consideration of banning MK?

Well, there sure as hell is some heated debate. As for "serious consideration", we haven't really had enough TOs or SBR members say one way or the other whether they're willing to take a stand on the issue. Most of the TOs are still in the same positions, and the SBR is staying silent on the matter, as per usual.

 

[Tien2500]

Thanks. Also if you would be so kind would you tell me what scrooging is? I tried searching and came up with way too many topics to sift through.

 

[Jack Kieser]

If I understand correctly, it's flying/gliding underneath the stage to avoid fighting.

 

[Kewkky]

Thanks. Also if you would be so kind would you tell me what scrooging is? I tried searching and came up with way too many topics to sift through.

Gliding under the stage, my good friend. I have no idea how the name got there, but it's stuck now. Don't you just love it when you're putting pressure miraculously on an MK who's planking, then all of a sudden they glide to the other ledge to escape the pressure and continue planking?

 

[Tien2500]

Oh I saw some stuff about that before I left but it didn't have a name yet. O_O... I'm surprised that isn't banned.

Edit: Yeah that's pretty ******* ridiculous. Thanks for the info.

 

[Jupz]

People quit the game everyday because of MK. People who threaten to quit the game (who are pros) who play MK will probably not actually quit the game. They make money at it. Do you guys really think they're going to give up their winnings? Instead of getting a real job, they get to make money playing a game they like. Pros who are anti ban are just as guilty of whining as pro ban - "If you guys ban MK, I'm qutting." How is that any less gay than the pro ban argument of "MK is gay and broken"?

It's because many people have spent 2 years learning MK. It's less fair to take all that training away from them then it is to simply keep MK - all the others have to deal with is a potentially bad matchup, rather then having to choose another character.

Everyone and their dog agrees that MK isn't BROKEN, by his traits, at all.
This is coming from both the anti and pro ban sides.

The intelligent arguments from the pro-ban now are only related to the effects he has on the tournament scene/metagame. Being blatantly ignorant of those points show how little you know Jupz.
It annoys me when people like Jack have such nicely worded posts and arguments that have ONE LINE picked out from an idiot to give reason to throw away the argument.

I addressed those points Shaya. And I wasn't even posting in reply to Jack??

 

[Z1GMA]

*chooses sub zero*

LOL WUT?

Kabal was not as broken as you make him sound. He was is...
Hell you cuold THROW him out of spindash too XD. Yeah, but that mostly happens by coincidence.

"The Spin Dash is probably Kabal's most important special move. It's collision box and collision start up are very large/fast and ultimately broken. The only things that can beat it out are usually accidentally timed jump kicks, or intentional run jabs that turn into accidental throws. There are a few other moves here and there that can beat the spin, but generally not timable. You can throw Kabal out of the spin from any distance with perfect timing, but expert Kabal players will not do random spins if they know it has a chance to be blocked. Expert Kabal players also tend to have a "Psychic Spin" ability in which they know exactly when you let off your guard."

I did that with Subzero.
He rushed forward, grabbed him out of it, tossed him, 50% combo afterwards.
LULZ ensued. That takes inhuman reactions and/or insane luck.

"Kabal is far and beyond the #1 character in the game".
He essentially dictates the match and really the only way to beat Kabal is to frustrate him and force mistakes.

EDIT: Oops, I was looking at the UMK3 Trierlist.
Kabal isn't as broken in Trilogy as in UMK3.
Noob Saibot & Rain are slightly better than Kabal in Trilogy.
Still, his Spin Dash is godly in both games nontheless.

 

[Shaya]

"Also what I was trying to say was that if you're going to argue MK should be banned then talk about the character's traits, not side effects."

Replying to that first two sentences/paragraph, Jupz.
Second paragraph addressing others.

 

[Johnny Citrus]

People quit the game everyday because of MK. People who threaten to quit the game (who are pros) who play MK will probably not actually quit the game. They make money at it. Do you guys really think they're going to give up their winnings? Instead of getting a real job, they get to make money playing a game they like. Pros who are anti ban are just as guilty of whining as pro ban - "If you guys ban MK, I'm qutting." How is that any less gay than the pro ban argument of "MK is gay and broken"?

As for character diversity, if MK is banned, I -THINK- more than 3 or 4 characters can compete. Pretty sure nearly all of A, B, and C tier have a decent chance of becoming viable, if they aren't already. Some characters that could get a significant boost from MK being banned - Peach, Olimar, Marth, GW, ROB, DDD, probably some others I'm forgetting. No character would dominate the metagame like MK does.

Lol wow no one gets that much money from this game. DeDeDe and marth don't even do that badly against mk, and Peach/GnW won't be good with MK gone anyway.

 

[HeroMystic]

Lol wow no one gets that much money from this game.

Overswarm lived off of Tournament winnings for a whole year.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Lol wow no one gets that much money from this game. DeDeDe and marth don't even do that badly against mk, and Peach/GnW won't be good with MK gone anyway.

MU Tier-list w/o MK

MU Tier-list w/ MK

Peach/GnW will be good with MK gone.

 

[§leepy God]

♪ The list without Meta Knight needs a little more work. There are more than a handful of characters that is a little too high, (looking at Toon Link). ^_^; †

 

[rPSIvysaur]

That is based off of the MU Chart and List, so you're going to want to talk to the Tink boards if you think the ratio's are too high. But it does show that some characters really benefit without having to deal with MK.

 

[Pierce7d]

IMO Marth loses to ROB and DK and goes even with D3, Snake, and Wolf.

EDIT: Unless he planks DK

 

[EmuKiller]

Heck yes I think metaknight should be banned! I mean granted that a diddy kong won Pound 4 and a diddy kong won S.N.E.S and a snake won Apex and Genesis BUT HECK GUYS I HATE METAKNIGHT!

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Heck yes I think metaknight should be banned! I mean granted that a diddy kong won Pound 4 and a diddy kong won S.N.E.S and a snake won Apex and Genesis BUT HECK GUYS I HATE METAKNIGHT!

Terrible sarcasm. This shows nothing more than that Ally/ADHD are ****ing incredible. And whoever else (M2K, Overswarm, etc.) didn't know them well enough to win.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Big tournaments don't count.

 

[adumbrodeus]

The reason that I worry about these bans that have "no disadvantage" is quite simply that is if we allow unjustified bans, it stands to reason that we'll allow others on the same low standard. Looking at the super conservative stage list we're currently functioning under and the fact that planking was banned almost universally with pretty much no discussion or testing and I think I'm justified in worrying that the community will be one of those communities that bans pretty much everything.

Um... they are BOTH a part of the game.

Removing items is part of the game too.

Again, it's a tournament standardization issue.

Jack, I'll tell you what. If you can round up enough players for an items on tourney, you can host one.

But no one smart wants to play that garbage, because it's just that, garbage.

Actually ISP is a pretty fun side tournament format.

 

[Arcana~]

The whole reason for people like you wanting MK banned is all because you don't no how to fight him. You learn how to fight against other so called "broken" or "cheap" characters like Diddy and Snake, so why is MK any different?