Why MK should NOT be banned (the opinion from someone who actually fights them)

[Allied]

who went to pound4 btw? i just remember i found this video i'm at the end of the video!!! @ 9:26 someone called me to go join in the group EC picture or watever those cuties were doing (ps i got mad long hair LOL its mad cute)

try to find yourself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIesYRsqChc

brb water

@jack yo xyro is my ***** <3

 

[HoN3Y64]

(one reason I like Texas Smash; they aren't afraid to do what other territories aren't doing).

They aren't afraid of doing their cousins, either.

 

[Remzi]

^Yes. It's really unfair not only to MK players, but also to people like Ally and ADHD who spent a lot of time working on the matchup.

No, you know whats unfair?

Somebody who has put hours into the game and on the MK matchup, only to be planked and scrooged for a grueling 8 minutes.

 

[BunBun]

Your name is bunbun on an online fighting game forum thats rated E for everyone and you want proper punctuation from me?

LOL

Yes, that is correct.

 

[Allied]

They aren't afraid of doing their cousins, either.

GOT EM

No, you know whats unfair?

Somebody who has put hours into the game and on the MK matchup, only to be planked and scrooged for a grueling 8 minutes.

we've explained this like over9000 times

RDK care to do this one

 

[RDK]

No, you know whats unfair?

Somebody who has put hours into the game and on the MK matchup, only to be planked and scrooged for a grueling 8 minutes.

Right, because having to switch characters because your matchup sucks is way too much work.

Can't wait for this to turn into another D3 infinite thread!

 

[Allied]

Those are mad fun to talk about lol

 

[Jack Kieser]

They aren't afraid of doing their cousins, either.

No, that's Alabama Smash.

And, RDK... you're not a stupid person. I've been reading your posts for a long time. You're not a dumb guy, so why are you being so stupid? I'm going to boycott your posts until you can get this point:

You have laid out ban criteria. These ban criteria have not been voted upon by any outside body. No one has agreed that we should use them. You say they are not only the best way to go, but the only way to go... but you never said why.

Unless you can explain to me why "RDK's Ban Criteria" are better than anything else, I'm not going to respond to you.

Oh, and we've given Metaknight 4 National tournaments and haven't banned him. Where are the 4 National tournaments with items (before ISP)? Where is the one national tournament with items? SBR testing does not count; tournament data is your mantra, so I call for it. Point me to the tournament data that shows that we gave Brawl items and stages a full go before banning them (I'm talking about National All-Brawl tournaments). If you have none, you're a liar, and I'll say that flat out.

 

[Allied]

inb4 red text of death

 

[Big-Cat]

Right, because having to switch characters because your matchup sucks is way too much work.

Can't wait for this to turn into another D3 infinite thread!

I shouldn't have to play counterpick in order to counter a character that has no bad matchups. When you get to that point, the game becomes a chore.

I think I just shot myself in the foot by responding.

 

[KrazyGlue]

I was going to respond, but yeah... *agrees with RDK*.

 

[Remzi]

I'm actually neutral on the topic, so I don't really need a refute. I'm just saying it goes both ways so it doesn't help either argument.

And there isn't really a character besides MK who can really deal with planking, definitely scrooging at least.

 

[salaboB]

I asked Salabob this, I'll ask you too:

Are you or are you not disputing the fact that items are distributed in a random fashion and therefore reward players for events outside of their control?

You never actually asked me that, though you did ask me something close.

And my answer is: Items are distributed in a semi-random fashion that players can take advantage of in a skill-based manner through stage control and knowledge of where items are most likely to spawn.

Or are you going to say we should ban Peach, G&W, and Luigi because they have moves with results that occur in a random fashion and therefore reward players for events outside of their control?

 

[RDK]

You have laid out ban criteria. These ban criteria have not been voted upon by any outside body. No one has agreed that we should use them. You say they are not only the best way to go, but the only way to go... but you never said why.

Unless you can explain to me why "RDK's Ban Criteria" are better than anything else, I'm not going to respond to you.

First of all, they're not "my" ban criteria. They're "the" ban criteria.

And I've explained why we use them as a ban criteria. We use it because it is the only current criteria that does the best job at allowing for minimal customization of the game while making a fair and level playing field for all players.

No other system does that. Not the item system, not the pro-ban system. Everything else but this system boils down to subjective opinion and will most definitely not be able to be supported in the future. We've acquired the current ruleset via scientific means, and any other ruleset that claims to be better has to show - with data - why it does a better job (in your case, why the game should be played with items over no items).

It's simple. We make the least amount of changes to the game in order to make it fair. Anything else is subjective lines being drawn in the sand.

Coincidentally, anything more to this discussion has to do with individual player competitive philosophy, and frankly that's beyond the scope of this thread.

Oh, and we've given Metaknight 4 National tournaments and haven't banned him. Where are the 4 National tournaments with items (before ISP)? Where is the one national tournament with items? SBR testing does not count; tournament data is your mantra, so I call for it. Point me to the tournament data that shows that we gave Brawl items and stages a full go before banning them (I'm talking about National All-Brawl tournaments). If you have none, you're a liar, and I'll say that flat out.

I never said they had to be national tournaments, I said they had to be tested in a tournament setting.

I'll ask my question a third time. Are you or are you not disputing the fact that items are distributed in a random fashion and reward players for events outside of their control?

Do or do they not hinder fair competition?

 

[Allied]

I shouldn't have to play counterpick in order to counter a character that has no bad matchups. When you get to that point, the game becomes a chore.

I think I just shot myself in the foot by responding.

No thats actually how alot of fighting games works

IN SF4 The worst matchup in that game is only like 1 matchup (i think)

and its 90-10

Zangief vs Seth

So unless i'm ******** i'm just going to switch


Thats why doing some research on all your counterpicks and what character can best suit you i found out Snake was my best bet as my other main was Kirby

and i've been doing good ever since because snake covers the 60:40 Marth:Kirby, 60:40 MK:Kirby(inb4 55:45 i believe its 60:40) and some other dumb characters

the only character that is universally beating both my snake and my kirby is RoB but lets be serious the only serious threat with ROB nowadays likes gwjumpman or chibo is unholyknightmare and the ROB scene kinda died (inb4 Metaknight IS TOO GOOD HE MADE ROB EXTINCT, good robs gay)

Its not a chore if you hope to advance yourself competitively in tournament standards thats something alot of people do

 

[Allied]

Yo RDK is nuts lol its great XD

 

[salaboB]

First of all, they're not "my" ban criteria. They're "the" ban criteria.

And I've explained why we use them as a ban criteria. We use it because it is the only current criteria that does the best job at allowing for minimal customization of the game while making a fair and level playing field for all players.

No other system does that. Not the item system, not the pro-ban system. Everything else but this system boils down to subjective opinion and will most definitely not be able to be supported in the future. We've acquired the current ruleset via scientific means, and any other ruleset that claims to be better has to show - with data - why it does a better job (in your case, why the game should be played with items over no items).

It's simple. We make the least amount of changes to the game in order to make it fair. Anything else is subjective lines being drawn in the sand.

Coincidentally, anything more to this discussion has to do with individual player competitive philosophy, and frankly that's beyond the scope of this thread.

You say this, but the "ban criteria" is unevenly applied - stages (I'm not even looking at items here) are banned that do not match your stated criteria.

That implies that the true ban criteria for "things" (ie, any game element that can be banned or not) is not what you listed.

Nice hand waving btw, I don't believe anything has been done "scientifically" that resulted in that list of what qualifies for banning.

 

[Allied]

inb4 jack's well organized paragraphs

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

I remember when you didn't have to second some1 to win a set. Something should be done whether it's a ban or fix in the counterpicking.

'Til Weegee and Mario get much better results I rest my case w/ that infinite.

 

[HoN3Y64]

I remember when you didn't have to second some1 to win a set. Something should be done whether it's a ban or fix in the counterpicking.

'Til Weegee and Mario get much better results I rest my case w/ that infinite.

Stop posting, seriously, you're noob as hell. Get outta here.

 

[RDK]

Stop posting, seriously, you're noob as hell. Get outta here.

I just use the ignore button. I literally have never seen an intelligent thing come out of the guy's mouth.

You say this, but the "ban criteria" is unevenly applied - stages (I'm not even looking at items here) are banned that do not match your stated criteria.

That implies that the true ban criteria for "things" (ie, any game element that can be banned or not) is not what you listed.

Nice hand waving btw, I don't believe anything has been done "scientifically" that resulted in that list of what qualifies for banning.

Which stages - or any other game elements, for that matter - don't meet my ban criteria?

 

[Inferno3044]

I gotta agree with most of this Wyatt. I can't believe that everyone truly knows the Diddy MU. Either that or they suck at it. I thought I heard of something that Diddy can put MK in a spot where he has no options at all. I don't have any more detail than that though.

Also you forgot that you are 0-2 with Nairo

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Stop posting, seriously, you're noob as hell. Get outta here.

List me ALL of Falco's top and high matchup numbers in order by heart. If do not have a reply within 120 seconds then I'll assume you don't know them.

I have every right to give my cents. You're making a bad start on these boards you know it.

 

[Jack Kieser]

First of all, they're not "my" ban criteria. They're "the" ban criteria.

And I've explained why we use them as a ban criteria. We use it because it is the only current criteria that does the best job at allowing for minimal customization of the game while making a fair and level playing field for all players.

No other system does that. Not the item system, not the pro-ban system. Everything else but this system boils down to subjective opinion and will most definitely not be able to be supported in the future. We've acquired the current ruleset via scientific means, and any other ruleset that claims to be better has to show - with data - why it does a better job (in your case, why the game should be played with items over no items).

It's simple. We make the least amount of changes to the game in order to make it fair. Anything else is subjective lines being drawn in the sand.

Coincidentally, anything more to this discussion has to do with individual player competitive philosophy, and frankly that's beyond the scope of this thread.

I'm glad you said they're "the" ban criteria... because they're also the ban criteria that was established before Smash ever existed. They are ostensibly someone else's ban criteria. Smashers did not make them for themselves, they carried them over from other games, from older systems. How do I know? Simple: because they are also David Sirlin's criteria, and he published "Playing to Win" in 2000, before Melee was even released, before competitive Smash became what it is.

The fact of the matter is that those ban criteria do what they do well... for other communities. We don't even strictly adhere to them, because we ban stuff left and right. We don't ban only what is necessary. Ban criteria doesn't say that a competitive game can't have ANY random events. We took out as much random as we wanted because we didn't want random, simple as that. Just like anything else in human history, we do what we must to justify what we want. If we don't want those criteria, if they don't serve us, we don't have to use them. Simple as that. You know what system is better? One that we cater to our needs. Just because RDK doesn't want random in his game doesn't mean random is anti-competitive. If random is hurting things, that's one thing. Random is not hurting Brawl; tripping isn't killing the game.

I never said they had to be national tournaments, I said they had to be tested in a tournament setting.

I'll ask my question a third time. Are you or are you not disputing the fact that items are distributed in a random fashion and reward players for events outside of their control?

Do or do they not hinder fair competition?

Oh, they didn't need to be national tournaments? Ok, I'll bite. Give me the 4 100+ man tournaments that had All-Brawl enabled. Go for it. Remember, they need to be before the first SBR ruleset (because the ruleset was supposed to use tournament data to make the decision).

Also, who cares about items again? I'm asking you for item tournament results to show you your own argument's hypocrisy (we don't strictly adhere to old ban criteria, so why do it now?); the particulars of item play mechanics are irrelevant to this discussion. Whether or not items are broken does not affect whether Meta needs to go.

I'll go ahead and tell you, though, that item spawns are random. I don't think that's bad, though, and I don't think that this means we can't control it to a degree.

@Allied: I doubt I'm going to make any more of those Uber-posts today; it's late, I have work in the morning, homework to do, and Mass Effect isn't going to finish itself. I'm good, but I'll leave the well organized paragraphs for tomorrow. ^_^

EDIT: Man, I just realized that the only reason RDK is getting as far as he is in this debate is because he's being so broad. Start asking him for specific stuff, guys.

 

[Allied]

hahaha nice rdk XD GML what did you say?

Jack your ridicious lol

 

[salaboB]

Which stages - or any other game elements, for that matter - don't meet my ban criteria?

Tell me, does Rumble Falls break competition? Make playing impossible? Overcentralize the game? Force a situation where you have to pick one character or lose? Those are what you said had to be met (I'd guess at least one of them) for something to be banned, so which of these does Rumble Falls meet?

It's not fun to play on, but I don't believe it meets your criteria. Same for Bridge of Eldin (You can just pick someone that can't get cg'ed off the edge -- that's not "one" character option, there's a variety still available). I'm sure there are others.

 

[zeldspazz]

List me ALL of Falco's top and high matchup numbers in order by heart. If do not have a reply within 120 seconds then I'll assume you don't know them.

I have every right to give my cents. You're making a bad start on these boards you know it.

Yeah I can do that for Zelda.

Doesnt make me any less of a noob D:

 

[Remzi]

hahaha nice rdk XD GML what did you say?

Jack your ridicious lol

Dude, stop meatriding him after every post.

I think even HE is annoyed by it at this point.

 

[RDK]

Tell me, does Rumble Falls break competition? Make playing impossible? Overcentralize the game? Force a situation where you have to pick one character or lose? Those are what you said had to be met (I'd guess at least one of them) for something to be banned, so which of these does Rumble Falls meet?

Rumble Falls is about as simple a case as it gets. Scrolling stages inhibit competitive play the same way open-sided stages do. Not only that, but the stage speeds up and slows down at random.

And let me make distinction here - Luigi and Peach having random properties to their moves is entirely different from items being distributed at random. One is under control of the player, the other is not.

It's not fun to play on, but I don't believe it meets your criteria. Same for Bridge of Eldin (You can just pick someone that can't get cg'ed off the edge -- that's not "one" character option, there's a variety still available). I'm sure there are others.

This fits my criteria perfectly, actually - it becomes heavily overcentralized on characters that can CG. I.E., D3.

 

[Remzi]

oh dang RDK u da best!!!

</Allied>

 

[TLMSheikant]

Luk at meh im allied. Im so mature. Im with the antibans we're like so coooool and superior to everyone. Im surprised he hasnt been banned yet with all the spam hes done in this thread.

 

[KrazyGlue]

Stop posting, seriously, you're noob as hell. Get outta here.

List me ALL of Falco's top and high matchup numbers in order by heart. If do not have a reply within 120 seconds then I'll assume you don't know them.

I have every right to give my cents. You're making a bad start on these boards you know it.

Hey, no flame wars. Seriously, it's a game, and there's no need to get bent out of shape about it. At least take it to PMs.

 

[Jack Kieser]

If you'll allow me to show how generic RDK is being this evening...

Rumble Falls is about as simple a case as it gets. Scrolling stages inhibit competitive play the same way open-sided stages do.

He never says how that is, nor why Rumble Falls shows the same kind of gameplay inhibition.

Not only that, but the stage speeds up and slows down at random.

RDK also fails to show why that's a bad thing.

And let me make distinction here - Luigi and Peach having random properties to their moves is entirely different from items being distributed at random. One is under control of the player, the other is not.

Then he changes the point entirely to something no one said (or at least, to a point I didn't read from anyone in this discussion).

This fits my criteria perfectly, actually - it becomes heavily overcentralized on characters that can CG. I.E., D3.

This, actually, I kind of agree with, although I think projectile spammy characters could do just fine.

 

[Allied]

Dude, stop meatriding him after every post.

I think even HE is annoyed by it at this point.

haha i just said nice because he put something i said as a sig and i only said 2 things about RDK why are you jealous or something or have a problem with me lol

oh dang RDK u da best!!!

</Allied>

 

[RDK]

Luk at meh im allied. Im so mature. Im with the antibans we're like so coooool and superior to everyone. Im surprised he hasnt been banned yet with all the spam hes done in this thread.

He's a Poe, just ignore him.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Poe's+Law

Edit: Hey Jack, I thought you were going to bed?

 

[Allied]

Luk at meh im allied. Im so mature. Im with the antibans we're like so coooool and superior to everyone. Im surprised he hasnt been banned yet with all the spam hes done in this thread.

Lol i'm not spaming i'm actually apart of the discussion i may goof off from post to post because it gets boring when people like bengalz comes in here and asks the same question and cries about something when he doesnt go to tournaments haha

btw isn't this past your bedtime brah? Just saying

 

[Big-Cat]

And let me make distinction here - Luigi and Peach having random properties to their moves is entirely different from items being distributed at random. One is under control of the player, the other is not.

How are Peach and Luigi's moves under the control of the player? Not even the player knows what he/she will get. It's not too far from random spawning items. Will I pull out a turnip or a bomb? Will a bomb spawn here?

 

[Jack Kieser]

He's a Poe, just ignore him.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Poe's+Law

Edit: Hey Jack, I thought you were going to bed?

Heh, I had never heard of Poe's Law before... that's... awesome, but scary.

And, just because I have work in the morning doesn't mean I'm going to be responsible; like I said, Mass Effect won't play itself. lol

@KumaOso: He means that, even though the results of the move may be random, it's ok because the player himself instigates the move; you won't just get a random Beam Sword at any time, because you have to initiate the move first. Although... tripping has that same relationship with the "run" command, so I guess tripping has been ok all along.

EDIT @ RDK below: No, it isn't the same... but it's similar. You don't know what you'll get or where you'll get it, but you do know it will be about every 35-45 seconds (on "Low"). ^_-

 

[RDK]

How are Peach and Luigi's moves under the control of the player? Not even the player knows what he/she will get. It's not too far from random spawning items. Will I pull out a turnip or a bomb? Will a bomb spawn here?

Right, because a player knowing that he will pull out something is exactly the same as the game rewarding a player for being in a random place at a random time.

 

[Allied]

How are Peach and Luigi's moves under the control of the player? Not even the player knows what he/she will get. It's not too far from random spawning items. Will I pull out a turnip or a bomb? Will a bomb spawn here?

The only reason i dont like items because the spawning and position gets way to sloppy


Snake _________________ Kirby


on FD


Snake ___item___________Kirby

Right there snake has now an advantage over kirby as he can reach the item way faster especially also on different levels where items go on different platforms and such

Also if you didn't know kumaoso Thats a chance pull with luigi and peach not a luck i dont remember what exactly the chance of luigi's sideb explosion is or peach's bomb i'm sure they have it on the character forum lol

jack was trying to explain how items could work but i still wouldn't really mess with it man