Why MK should NOT be banned (the opinion from someone who actually fights them)

[KrazyGlue]

Honestly, banning MK is like saying we should ban Lebron James from basketball. Lebron physically outmatches everyone at his position. There's no disputing that he's by far the best forward. Yet he doesn't always win. Outplay him, either physically, mentally, or both. Same with MK.

All this talk of MK "killing smash" is ridiculous. The game has already been out for quite some time, and has shown no signs of slowing down despite MK's dominance. And plenty of people have claimed to quit but not actually followed through.

Also, what's with people saying MK takes less skill? Take M2K as an example. He was/is a master at melee, where there is no MK. He's just **** good at super smash bros.

Also, *agrees with Luxor*.

 

[RDK]

Yes because overall, he is the BEST character.
THe reason Wyatt won was due to being the best PLAYER.

If you are skilled enough you can overcome the odds against you. Wyatt did that, no doubt about it.

Sorry, but you're making a huge oversimplification here. Picking a character is not the only factor that causes you to be you statistically more or less likely to win a match.

Saying he should have won because he picked MK assumes that all other factors are null. They're not, and they weren't in that particular scenario.

You want to run the numbers through a machine?

Let alone you are ignoring what I pointed out.
You agreed with Gheb when he mentioned DIddy winning Pound4.

What does that prove?
NOTHING!

It is just like 100 students ina class getting an average of 23 on their tests, and having 1 student getting 100%.
Does this mean that the test was perfectly fair??
No.

I'm not even going to point out why the above example is hilariously ludicrous. I suggest you look up the definitions of the terms mean, median, mode, statistically significant, and standard deviation.

You are trying to justify MK's existence based upon this ONE example.

And that's the same exact argument people use as to why MK should be banned. Single events of MK or Diddy winning tournaments don't prove anything in and of themselves. What was the context?

MOST of pro-ban is a joke.
MOST of anti-ban is a joke.

Both sides have people who dot he following.
MK is broken ban!
You guys are scrubs get better!

The only difference is MK is not broken, and 99% of pro-ban are scrubs that need to get better. Pro-ban's entire argument is one big whine.

Wasn't Akuma banned in SF HD Remix even though he was nowhere near as broken as he was in SF2T?

How is this at all relevant? IIRC this is the Brawl Boards, not SRK.

Plus, let me point out the hypocrisy of pro-ban. They whine about us trying to be like SRK in the vein of not being ban-happy. But then when we refuse to ban MK, people cry about us not banning Akuma......like the SRK community.

Doublethink.

Also you never responded to my portion about why MK doesn't deserve a ban.

 

[Luxor]

I'm simply curious to know which other threats the community would centralize on instead (Notably, to the extent that it's fixated on MK).

Probably Marth, because iirc he has no really *bad* matchups besides MK. Yeah, Snake and DDD may be 45:55 their favor, but that still gives Marth amazing and perfectly winnable matchups, and he can CP Falco or whoever vs. DDD or just Dolphin Slash out of an imperfect chaingrab. And with Marth's 70:30 matchups on half the low/mid tiers out there... yeah.
Snake and D3 would definitely rise as well- Snake would very likely be the new #1 (obviously). D3 would rise with one of his bad matchups eliminated and against a new top two he fares quite well against- and those low tiers won't like more Dthrows flying around.
My theorymon top 5 would be
1. Snake
2. Marth
3. Falco/D3/ADHD Diddy
4. Falco/D3/Diddy
5. Falco/D3/Diddy
etc.

TL;DR

sorry mad tired XD can you summarize it for me :D?

edited my post, basically MK isn't that banworthy imo, banning him won't help diversity, his brokenness is arguable, and there's no precedent for banning him.

 

[CRASHiC]

RDK, the point of bringing up Akuma in HDR is to show those who think that we should look to past examples of when the ban things that in similar situations a banning was used, its not presenting Akuma HD as a way to argue that he should be banned but is using in in contradiction to the argument that other communities don't do this. It was originally posted by the peach player in the BR Parxis? in response to many people using Akuma as reference to a character that should be banned and to those who complained that we shouldn't ban Metaknight because of 'ban standards' as set but other games.

Here's a question for you RDK, do you honestly care about the future of Brawl or, as you have stated in past debates, would like to see it die off?

At above: Snake would not be 2. Things would change considerably. It would honestly be a toss up between Wario and Marth.

 

[RDK]

I'll give you one concession here: "respect" in the strictest sense of the word, probably isn't what most people are clamoring for (although I'd like to know why SRK is that bad... because they wanted to have some items on? Sure, they should have been more respectful, but it's not like we were saints, either). Still, though, why latch onto their policies so much? Even you would be hard pressed to say that a big reason people argue that we can't ban MK is because that's "just not what a competitive community does", but who decided that? I certainly didn't. No one, including you, IIRC, has ever explained why we have to wait until the absolute breaking point to ban something (something we don't even do consistently, btw), instead of being big boys and girls and deciding when to ban something ourselves.

Because this very thread and the hundred million kajillion threads before it is concrete proof that people can't be big boys and girls about a simple issue.

We don't ban things unless they:

- break competition

- make playing impossible

- overcentralize

- force a situation where you have to "play this character or die"

I'm saying that people are saying a strict adherence to established fighting game dogma (only ban when things are ABSOLUTELY necessary) is cited as a reason not to ban Meta, but within about a week-month of Brawl even being released, items were banned and people were already deciding not to play on certain stages, a bias that migrated to the SBR's decision making process. If we can't ban Meta, then we should reinstate all items and stages until tournaments prove they are broken (which never happened). One or the other; you can't say that we have to strictly wait until Meta kills the game and forces everyone away before we can ban him, but then say that we can ban items or stages just by wanting to.

You are the one making an assertion. You say that MK will break the game and make everyone go away.

Come up with tournament data to support this or your assertion means nothing. We already know what items do to tournaments, and we've made a collective decision as a community to turn them off for the sake of competitive play. MK and items / stages are not even in the same boat.

One is random, anti-competitive, and rewards players for things out of their control, and the other is just annoyingly good.

BTW, pro-ban reminds me of creationists who whine about how methodological naturalism isn't fair and how science is all about rules and dogma. Just saying.

 

[Jack Kieser]

It has been done

Thank you, sir. I'd like to refer all those who argue "just play better" to Pierce7d's amazing post.

Honestly, banning MK is like saying we should ban Lebron James from basketball. Lebron physically outmatches everyone at his position. There's no disputing that he's by far the best forward. Yet he doesn't always win. Outplay him, either physically, mentally, or both. Same with MK.

Except Lebron James is an actual person, and Metaknight doesn't exist. We aren't infringing on Metaknight's inalienable right to play basketball in the pursuit of happiness when we ban him. <_<

All this talk of MK "killing smash" is ridiculous. The game has already been out for quite some time, and has shown no signs of slowing down despite MK's dominance. And plenty of people have claimed to quit but not actually followed through.

See Pierce7d's post.

Also, what's with people saying MK takes less skill? Take M2K as an example. He was/is a master at melee, where there is no MK. He's just **** good at super smash bros.

Also, *agrees with Luxor*.

That makes no sense. M2K is retardedly good at Smash, yes. That means he can do well with any character, hard to use or not. The fact that he does well with MK proves nothing.

 

[RDK]

RDK, the point of bringing up Akuma in HDR is to show those who think that we should look to past examples of when the ban things that in similar situations a banning was used, its not presenting Akuma HD as a way to argue that he should be banned but is using in in contradiction to the argument that other communities don't do this. It was originally posted by the peach player in the BR Parxis? in response to many people using Akuma as reference to a character that should be banned and to those who complained that we shouldn't ban Metaknight because of 'ban standards' as set but other games.

Banning a character because of how many people use that character is inane and ludicrous. I've laid out the basic requirements for a ban in the post above; there's no other reason taking something off of the game is needed. We only take things out of the game if they are truly needed, not because some DK player is butthurt because D3 ruined his life.

Here's a question for you RDK, do you honestly care about the future of Brawl or, as you have stated in past debates, would like to see it die off?

This isn't relevant either, but I'll answer it anyway. No, I don't care about the future of Brawl. To me Brawl is a waste dump of a game and it ruined the Smash franchise.

That's just my opinion; don't take it personally to all those pro-ban Brawlers out there.

 

[CRASHiC]

Again at RDK, there has been a VERY successful item tournament that proved very effective in case you forgot. Really, we don't ban items for any other reason we don't like them, unless you want to play on Overswarm's custom stages which aren't broken either. You greatly overexagerate the effect of items and should see the feed back from Jack's tournament.

 

[CRASHiC]

Banning a character because of how many people use that character is inane and ludicrous.

I didn't even ****ing say that and am done arguing with you over this, good ****ing day **** **** *******. Get ****ed in the head ***** *****.

 

[RDK]

Again at RDK, there has been a VERY successful item tournament that proved very effective in case you forgot. Really, we don't ban items for any other reason we don't like them, unless you want to play on Overswarm's custom stages which aren't broken either. You greatly overexagerate the effect of items and should see the feed back from Jack's tournament.

Are you disputing the fact that item placement is inherently random and rewards players for events out of their control?

I'm aware of Jack's tournaments and I think he does a swell job with the research end of it; nobody else pro-item took the time to actually go forward with the idea. Unfortunately it doesn't mean that items should be used in competitive play.

I didn't even ****ing say that and am done arguing with you over this, good ****ing day **** **** *******. Get ****ed in the head ***** *****.

When did I say you did? Take a chill pill. This is a video game forum for god's sake.

 

[Allied]

crashic is adorable ahahahhahaha XD

 

[salaboB]

Because this very thread and the hundred million kajillion threads before it is concrete proof that people can't be big boys and girls about a simple issue.

We don't ban things unless they:

- break competition

- make playing impossible

- overcentralize

- force a situation where you have to "play this character or die"

You are being imprecise.

What you meant to say was: "We don't ban characters unless they:", because there are a variety of items and stages that don't match your listed criteria but are banned.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Because this very thread and the hundred million kajillion threads before it is concrete proof that people can't be big boys and girls about a simple issue.

We don't ban things unless they:

- break competition

- make playing impossible

- overcentralize

- force a situation where you have to "play this character or die"

And WHY DON'T WE BAN THINGS UNLESS IT'S FOR THOSE REASONS? Because you say so? Because that would make us scrubs? Because other communities did that first (the real reason)? Why should I listen to you? Why should we use those rules as opposed to anything else? This is like the 35th time I've asked you this in an MK debate (and I'm pretty sure I've asked it to you in items debates, too). Answer the question. Why should I listen to you? Why should anyone listen to you?

You are the one making an assertion. You say that MK will break the game and make everyone go away.

Come up with tournament data to support this or your assertion means nothing. We already know what items do to tournaments, and we've made a collective decision as a community to turn them off for the sake of competitive play. MK and items / stages are not even in the same boat.

One is random, anti-competitive, and rewards players for things out of their control, and the other is just annoyingly good.

BTW, pro-ban reminds me of creationists who whine about how methodological naturalism isn't fair and how science is all about rules and dogma. Just saying.

No, you know what improperly implemented items do in tournaments; I've proven before what properly implemented items will do in tournaments, and no one wants to admit it. But, this isn't about items. This is about our stubbornness. The fact of the matter is, we could have approached items and stages differently this time around using the knowledge of Melee; turned off crates, made item CPs, waited until tournaments proved things broken before banning them... but we didn't. It was fine to ban things prematurely then, so you know what?

I'm calling you out on it.

We didn't need to wait for tournaments then, so we don't need to now. Or rather, we don't need to wait for things to get worse than they already are. Stop being a hypocrite; either admit that we were premature then, or admit that we have the right to ban him now if we so choose. One or the other, RDK. You can't have both.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Dude ur outnumbered.

Simply having the power to beat doesn't make it easy, let alone terminate some1's decision that he ruins a lot of people and needs to be cut. I play a good MK, I beat him. Was it easy and can I do this consistently like I SHOULD BE ABLE TO (staring at Ally who is inhuman) , no...

 

[AvaricePanda]

No, I can not name five people who have quit because of MK.

Pierce, you don't cater to the opinions of people unwilling to play a competitive game. Yes, people have quit because of MK, but people have quit because of the campy nature of Brawl, have changed mains because theirs get infinited by 5 different characters, etc. Should we make rules to force Brawl to be less campy, or remove the effectiveness of all infinites, so that newbies (scrubs, I guess) will be less inclined to quit?

Jack, if you seriously want the answer to that question, look through the other MK ban threads (namely the most recent one which had those outlined in the first post). And if you disagree with it, post a more specific argument why instead of asking questions.

Really everybody, I see absolutely nothing new from pro-ban's argument. If you seriously want people to consider to ban MK, you're going to have to bring new evidence for it rather than saying what has been said since October of 2008. The polls have voted about even both ways, and that won't seem to change unless you, pro-ban side, the ones making the assertion, provides new evidence for MK being banworthy.

So far, you have not.

 

[Chuee]

Answer the question. Why should I listen to you? Why should anyone listen to you?

Why should anyone listen to you?

 

[KrazyGlue]

Except Lebron James is an actual person, and Metaknight doesn't exist. We aren't infringing on Metaknight's inalienable right to play basketball in the pursuit of happiness when we ban him. <_<

I wasn't trying to focus on that aspect, I was focusing on the aspect that that MK is beatable.

See Pierce7d's post.

Yeah, it's a kind of weak argument (no offence Pierce, I think you're a cool guy ). Are we really going to make boycotting a part of smash? Is there any evidence that people who leave smash are offended by other people replacing them? And won't we be offending just as many, if not more, people by banning MK? Don't we care about the MK players? Don't we care about people like ADHD who spent loads of time studying the matchup? Wouldn't all that time of practicing by ADHD and MK players go to waste if we remove the character?

That makes no sense. M2K is retardedly good at Smash, yes. That means he can do well with any character, hard to use or not. The fact that he does well with MK proves nothing.

Exactly, thank you for proving and reinforcing my point. People who claim MK takes less skill are failing to realize that a large part of MK's success is due to the excellent, hardworking players who use him.

 

[Allied]

hold up brb where i respond to pierces post

also @ AvaricePanda i really think people thought way too much that this is going to be the new melee when in fact this is actually just

a new game haha XD

 

[Chuee]

No, I can not name five people who have quit because of MK.

This. The only people I know that quit brawl, quit because of the game, not mk. The only people that would quit the game because of mk are people that can't accept their loses and blame them on mk.

 

[Allied]

I can name more than 5 in fact how about half the melee community that tried brawl then a week later went right back to melee or quit all together but then again brawl is at an all time high for pound4

then again where are the actually statistics of brawl tournaments and how many people quit do you know? Like where is the proof the game is dying slowly i see some possibilties everyone right now is butthurt over pound4 "omg so much MK" well you guys obviously haven't seen some SF tournaments then or some tekken where high tier is mostly supreme thats one problem alot people in brawl have is they aren't using tournament effienent characters and pick zelda who has a 20-80 MU against MK and wonder why they can't place high thats why i knew if i was going to advance in the tournament scene i made some research and got a smart counterpick character of snake.



As far as beating MK the only problem i see it for is the mediocore wifi players or whatever first tournament attenders that really have trouble with that matchup but its not even that matchup how much you wanna bet you put them against some advance falcos and Warios the same outcome might come its a very matchup intensive game by what i feel and i'm sure players are going to get frusterated (i sure as hell did you prolly even have seen me walk outside get something to drink to cool off whatever) but thats me learning right there i'm not going to blood cross it and give up on it (inb4 bloodcross<3) but people gotta put in that dedication to reach that top status and also thats in part where we as a community definitally let him know yeah well we can help you out and show you to a good time at the tournament venue and help that person overall have a better time at the tournament environment which is why i try to be very social (or going to try to be especially more) to new people and definitally let em know that yeah you know we all were there frusterated and learning but theres way around it.

when i went to my first couple of tournaments yo i got trashed talked in fact thats how i met dmbrandon he walked up to me and challenged me to a 10 dollar mm straight up and you know people on the forums at the time especially when i was new to this forum and especially real tournaments i didn't get proper guidance and i still notice that on the forums for some of the newer players andddddddd


Mk is beatable
and the tournament attendance so far is pretty **** good unless you can prove me otherwise wrong with real data i just go by tournament results i see every week i may be like 4-5 months behind but so far we started the new year straight ma doo

its only been 2 years so far we still got some time to see something happen


btw this was @ pierce7d's little post
you guys post too d@mn muchlol

 

[Jack Kieser]

Why should anyone listen to you?

Because I've actually given logic to my reasons. RDK never explained why his ban criteria were any better than anyone else's, other than "that's how it always is everywhere". RDK never explains why those ban criteria are any better than any others... because he knows they're just as subjective as anyone's. Plus, he never explains how we aren't hypocrites for not applying those exact criteria to everything.

@KrazyGlue: I'm getting tired of multiquoting people... So I'll just say this: The fact that M2K does well with Meta is no proof for OR against Meta being hard to use. You know what's proof for him being easy? People using him for 2 weeks and beating people out of pools that have been playing for much longer. And honestly, what is Meta's hardest tech? Regrabbing the ledge? Seriously?

 

[Allied]

What would be the banning process i never actually knew that XD

i mean also i'm just letting you guys know if MK did get banned guarenteeing almost 75% of the actually top players across the couuntry would most likey quit all together, or go back to melee haha

Especially NJ/NY we are known for Metaknight whores

 

[KrazyGlue]

@KrazyGlue: I'm getting tired of multiquoting people... So I'll just say this: The fact that M2K does well with Meta is no proof for OR against Meta being hard to use. You know what's proof for him being easy? People using him for 2 weeks and beating people out of pools that have been playing for much longer. And honestly, what is Meta's hardest tech? Regrabbing the ledge? Seriously?

Haha no problem, multiquoting can be a bit of a hassle.

Unless you have an example of someone using MK 2 weeks and beating experienced players, I have no reason to believe you. Plus are you talking about people who started the game in 2 weeks and won, or switched characters? People who switched characters are already good smashers in general, and probably don't take very long to adapt to MK. Most top MKs like M2K, Tyrant, Dojo, etc. have been playing MUCH longer than 2 weeks, and practice a lot. Also they have a lot of other good MK players to talk to.

Yeah, his planking is stupid. There should be heavily enforced ledge grab limits. But most top MKs don't even use it all that often.

i mean also i'm just letting you guys know if MK did get banned guarenteeing almost 75% of the actually top players across the couuntry would most likey quit all together, or go back to melee haha

Especially NJ/NY we are known for Metaknight whores

This too.

 

[Alphatron]

Am I seriously seeing people comparing Meta Knight to Lebron James and top level foot ball players? Really guys? REALLY?

Contact me when Fox has finished practicing and can start wavedashing in brawl again. Or when Jigglypuff goes through rigorous training and relearns melee rest with a 64 style hitbox. Brawl characters afterall, are living breathing creatures who are subject to change and have gone through training to obtain their position.

 

[Chuee]

I hope you're not talking about Ally when you say using him for 2 weeks.

 

[Allied]

I hope you're not talking about Ally when you say using him for 2 weeks.

i'm not sorry not quite understanding

 

[Jack Kieser]

Why should anyone listen to you?

What would be the banning process i never actually knew that XD

i mean also i'm just letting you guys know if MK did get banned guarenteeing almost 75% of the actually top players across the couuntry would most likey quit all together, or go back to melee haha

Especially NJ/NY we are known for Metaknight whores

Well, the banning process would work one of two ways:

A ) The fast way would be for TO's to independently accept a ban and simply stop hosting tournaments allowing the banned thing (in this case, MK).

B ) The slower way, but the more decisive way, is for the SBR-B to deliberate, agree to a ban, and issue out a new version of the rules with the banned item... banned.

And... no they wouldn't. That's too much money at stake. Plenty of top players already admitted that they don't enjoy Brawl as much as Melee, and only play it because it's popular and pays well. Pros won't leave because of a Meta ban; that would mean sacrificing a lot of sweet, sweet money. It just wouldn't come as easily.

 

[HoN3Y64]

I play a good MK, I beat him. Was it easy and can I do this consistently like I SHOULD BE ABLE TO (staring at Ally who is inhuman) , no...

Ehhhhh. Stop posting.

 

[Chuee]

i'm not sorry not quite understanding

I was responding to Jack Kieser.

 

[BunBun]

I can name more than 5 in fact how about half the melee community that tried brawl then a week later went right back to melee or quit all together but then again brawl is at an all time high for pound4

then again where are the actually statistics of brawl tournaments and how many people quit do you know? Like where is the proof the game is dying slowly i see some possibilties everyone right now is butthurt over pound4 "omg so much MK" well you guys obviously haven't seen some SF tournaments then or some tekken where high tier is mostly supreme thats one problem alot people in brawl have is they aren't using tournament effienent characters and pick zelda who has a 20-80 MU against MK and wonder why they can't place high thats why i knew if i was going to advance in the tournament scene i made some research and got a smart counterpick character of snake.



As far as beating MK the only problem i see it for is the mediocore wifi players or whatever first tournament attenders that really have trouble with that matchup but its not even that matchup how much you wanna bet you put them against some advance falcos and Warios the same outcome might come its a very matchup intensive game by what i feel and i'm sure players are going to get frusterated (i sure as hell did you prolly even have seen me walk outside get something to drink to cool off whatever) but thats me learning right there i'm not going to blood cross it and give up on it (inb4 bloodcross<3) but people gotta put in that dedication to reach that top status and also thats in part where we as a community definitally let him know yeah well we can help you out and show you to a good time at the tournament venue and help that person overall have a better time at the tournament environment which is why i try to be very social (or going to try to be especially more) to new people and definitally let em know that yeah you know we all were there frusterated and learning but theres way around it.

when i went to my first couple of tournaments yo i got trashed talked in fact thats how i met dmbrandon he walked up to me and challenged me to a 10 dollar mm straight up and you know people on the forums at the time especially when i was new to this forum and especially real tournaments i didn't get proper guidance and i still notice that on the forums for some of the newer players andddddddd


Mk is beatable
and the tournament attendance so far is pretty **** good unless you can prove me otherwise wrong with real data i just go by tournament results i see every week i may be like 4-5 months behind but so far we started the new year straight ma doo

its only been 2 years so far we still got some time to see something happen


btw this was @ pierce7d's little post
you guys post too d@mn muchlol

Holy crap kid!
Try using some punctuation.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I hope you're not talking about Ally when you say using him for 2 weeks.

No, I'm not. I can't name any names because they're all unnamed people I've talked to at my tourneys. People that get wrecked using their favorite characters (no, not Ganon/Link/Falcon), pick up Meta, and then magically can win. Ironically, some of them are also people who refuse to play a character they don't enjoy, so some of them have quit (I'd assume; one actually left during WHOBO because he didn't understand double elimination).

 

[RDK]

You are being imprecise.

What you meant to say was: "We don't ban characters unless they:", because there are a variety of items and stages that don't match your listed criteria but are banned.

No, actually, I'm talking about everything. Items overcentralize to the point of making it a new game entirely.

Unless there's something you wanted to throw out there?

 

[Allied]

Well, the banning process would work one of two ways:

A ) The fast way would be for TO's to independently accept a ban and simply stop hosting tournaments allowing the banned thing (in this case, MK).

B ) The slower way, but the more decisive way, is for the SBR-B to deliberate, agree to a ban, and issue out a new version of the rules with the banned item... banned.

And... no they wouldn't. That's too much money at stake. Plenty of top players already admitted that they don't enjoy Brawl as much as Melee, and only play it because it's popular and pays well. Pros won't leave because of a Meta ban; that would mean sacrificing a lot of sweet, sweet money. It just wouldn't come as easily.

See whats wrong about that is

1. most TOs prolly won't do that like i know for example NJ/NY won't Md/va Won't Pa will because chibo is leading them but whatever lol etc etc you catch my drift

2. i'm not really understanding part b

also yeah because you gotta understand alot of these guys have been practicing straight metaknight and have secondary metaknights they need in CP matches and stuff like that

i mean i've seen plenty of blogs and talked to alot of people that would easily quit and thats like telling you Jack your main lucario or link is banned from tournament play the guy you put THE MOST time into any other character in tournament play feels wierd to you and you wouldn't chance it

Well now what do you do Learn a character from scatch and relearn the matchups for a game you dont really like in the first place

or play a different game

just saying bby

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ MOAR! MOAR!!! >=3 ☆

☆ Now only there was a FD should be a counter pick thread, that would be even better. <3 ☆

☆ Edited: There is a thread like that. It just got better. XD ☆

 

[Allied]

Holy crap kid!
Try using some punctuation.

Your name is bunbun on an online fighting game forum thats rated E for everyone and you want proper punctuation from me?

LOL

 

[KrazyGlue]

also yeah because you gotta understand alot of these guys have been practicing straight metaknight and have secondary metaknights they need in CP matches and stuff like that

i mean i've seen plenty of blogs and talked to alot of people that would easily quit and thats like telling you Jack your main lucario or link is banned from tournament play the guy you put THE MOST time into any other character in tournament play feels wierd to you and you wouldn't chance it

Well now what do you do Learn a character from scatch and relearn the matchups for a game you dont really like in the first place

or play a different game

just saying bby

^Yes. It's really unfair not only to MK players, but also to people like Ally and ADHD who spent a lot of time working on the matchup.

 

[RDK]

And WHY DON'T WE BAN THINGS UNLESS IT'S FOR THOSE REASONS? Because you say so? Because that would make us scrubs? Because other communities did that first (the real reason)?

I've already explained why that's not the reason. It seems like you have this weird fantasy that all competitive Smash players want to be like SRK. Project much?

Why should I listen to you? Why should we use those rules as opposed to anything else? This is like the 35th time I've asked you this in an MK debate (and I'm pretty sure I've asked it to you in items debates, too). Answer the question. Why should I listen to you? Why should anyone listen to you?

Don't listen to me. Look at the tests that have been done. Brawl was played officially with items when it first came out, just so that people like you couldn't get away with pulling the "dogma" card. Items overcentralize; they hinder fair competition and award players in a random fashion. Therefore they meet the ban criteria.

Every single instance of something being banned has come about because it meets the criteria. The rules are that we minimize the level of messing with the game while still employing the criteria so that there aren't any subjective arguments about whether or not this or that thing should be banned.....which is what your entire plan would turn into. If we took your idea and ran with it, it would be the same argument we're having now except greater by an order of several magnitudes.

It's a stupid argument and I've heard it used before. Methodological naturalism vs. supernatualism. You're arguing for subjectivity, I'm saying that we should keep it objective.

Unless you must play as this character or lose, there is no reason to ban said character.

You want me to write you a book? I'm not sure what else you want me to say that I haven't said already in every thread in which this comes up.

No, you know what improperly implemented items do in tournaments; I've proven before what properly implemented items will do in tournaments, and no one wants to admit it. But, this isn't about items. This is about our stubbornness. The fact of the matter is, we could have approached items and stages differently this time around using the knowledge of Melee; turned off crates, made item CPs, waited until tournaments proved things broken before banning them... but we didn't. It was fine to ban things prematurely then, so you know what?

I'm calling you out on it.

We didn't need to wait for tournaments then, so we don't need to now. Or rather, we don't need to wait for things to get worse than they already are. Stop being a hypocrite; either admit that we were premature then, or admit that we have the right to ban him now if we so choose. One or the other, RDK. You can't have both.

Dude, you simply don't know what you're talking about. Items were tested when Brawl came out.

I asked Salabob this, I'll ask you too:

Are you or are you not disputing the fact that items are distributed in a random fashion and therefore reward players for events outside of their control?

 

[HoN3Y64]

Reminds me of a time where loads of SSBM players had Fox as a secondary for all their bad matchups.

 

[Jack Kieser]

See whats wrong about that is

1. most TOs prolly won't do that like i know for example NJ/NY won't Md/va Won't Pa will because chibo is leading them but whatever lol etc etc you catch my drift

2. i'm not really understanding part b

also yeah because you gotta understand alot of these guys have been practicing straight metaknight and have secondary metaknights they need in CP matches and stuff like that

i mean i've seen plenty of blogs and talked to alot of people that would easily quit and thats like telling you Jack your main lucario or link is banned from tournament play the guy you put THE MOST time into any other character in tournament play feels wierd to you and you wouldn't chance it

Well now what do you do Learn a character from scatch and relearn the matchups for a game you dont really like in the first place

or play a different game

just saying bby

You're right about the TO's, because it's been very few who have had the balls to host Meta-banned tournaments so far (one reason I like Texas Smash; they aren't afraid to do what other territories aren't doing). As for clearing up the process, as far as I know, the Back Room will discuss it, go back and forth for a while, then take a vote, and (for all practical purposes) law will be passed down to us in the form of a new thread. People say that TO's can deviate, but for most things, deviation isn't too common, and for something this big, it would definitely be law.

And, if it was ME and my main was banned, yeah, I'd quit. But, if I were making hundreds of dollars and was traveling across the country... no, I'd just learn someone else. Anything for that cash. I'm sure most pros are like that.

 

[RDK]

Reminds me of a time where loads of SSBM players had Fox as a secondary for all their bad matchups.

Yeah remember when we banned Fox because he was too good and everyone used him?

Oh wait.