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Who exactly are the viable characters (for winning tournaments)?

Deathcarter

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This should be changed to "Viable by themselves". Almost any character can be used in tourneys if you pick your secondaries right. Ex. Fox/Lucario covers most bases well, with only some slight trouble from marth, mk, and GW.
The thing with Fox/Lucario is that you may pick the wrong character for the double blind pick and wind up with a disadvantage. My idea of a viable character is a character that can both make an incredible impact in a tournament and actually win the tournament with minimal use of a good secondary (i.e. not Ganondorf). I beleive in this idea of viability for two reasons:

1. Almost all tournament goers have other characters they play and are skilled with regardless of their main.
2. There are more tournament threats than MK, Snake, Falco, Marth, Wario, and Diddy. You could probably find many players who beleive DDD or G&W are more of a tournament threat than Diddy Kong regadless of Diddy's lack of majorly disadvantaged matchups.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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In the end it's a lot more about the players than the characters. A lot of people double or triple or 36-uple main at the higher end anyway and are hard to look at from this perspective. Perhaps it would be more productive to look at every character as a tool. You can, before any match, pick any character. Which one you select is a factor of individual utility. In the past, I've counterpicked R.O.B. when my opponents selected Luigi's Mansion. I don't actually like my R.O.B. more than my Mr. Game & Watch in any matchup, but I really like using him on that stage. I'm not a good personal example since I'm really not very diverse, but it's not hard to imagine how someone well versed in much of the cast could constantly switch characters based on the smallest of situations, even vague things like "I bet this guy has personal problems with Wolf" (everyone actually has personal problems with certain characters and natural strengths against others). Low or even bottom tiers aren't necessarily excluded either. Using Captain Falcon as a general main would be quite bold for someone looking to place #1 at a tournament, but for my part I have no trouble imagining someone finding that niche in which he's the right choice for a certain match.

In short, don't think of winning and losing in terms of characters. Think of it in terms of players, and look at things like Ankoku's list as signs of which character tools are delivering the most utility in the current metagame. On a personal level you may be able to decide wide arrays of characters are useless (maybe all but one), but in the big picture I think it would be foolish to totally overlook anyone (which is essentially what excluding them from a hard list like this would do). Perhaps when the game is more mature we can work out who is "theoretically viable" (the full set of characters worth using by an optimum player), but that's a ways off and all of this isn't really the most useful of a project anyway.
 
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In short, don't think of winning and losing in terms of characters.
I think we sort of have enough evidance to support that we can look at winning and losing in terms of characters. Have you ever seen a high placed tourney have a ton of low tier characters place really high or even when first place? I don't think, so. And I seriously doubt anyone in Smash is that good over all other Pros that they can win with Captain Falcon the whole way through.

Although, I wouldn't put it past people like Azen, M2K, Ally, etc. to be able to do that.
 

Deathcarter

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In the end it's a lot more about the players than the characters. A lot of people double or triple or 36-uple main at the higher end anyway and are hard to look at from this perspective. Perhaps it would be more productive to look at every character as a tool. You can, before any match, pick any character. Which one you select is a factor of individual utility. In the past, I've counterpicked R.O.B. when my opponents selected Luigi's Mansion. I don't actually like my R.O.B. more than my Mr. Game & Watch in any matchup, but I really like using him on that stage. I'm not a good personal example since I'm really not very diverse, but it's not hard to imagine how someone well versed in much of the cast could constantly switch characters based on the smallest of situations, even vague things like "I bet this guy has personal problems with Wolf" (everyone actually has personal problems with certain characters and natural strengths against others). Low or even bottom tiers aren't necessarily excluded either. Using Captain Falcon as a general main would be quite bold for someone looking to place #1 at a tournament, but for my part I have no trouble imagining someone finding that niche in which he's the right choice for a certain match.

In short, don't think of winning and losing in terms of characters. Think of it in terms of players, and look at things like Ankoku's list as signs of which character tools are delivering the most utility in the current metagame. On a personal level you may be able to decide wide arrays of characters are useless (maybe all but one), but in the big picture I think it would be foolish to totally overlook anyone (which is essentially what excluding them from a hard list like this would do). Perhaps when the game is more mature we can work out who is "theoretically viable" (the full set of characters worth using by an optimum player), but that's a ways off and all of this isn't really the most useful of a project anyway.
You make some very interesting points. Characters are basically tools and any character given the player could be useful in a tournament. But is the main point of your post to not promote the creation, either as a community or individual, of such a casual list on which characters are useable? I don't understand your agenda in that post.

To be honest, I wanted to promote some discussion with this thread and it succeded, but if it is better for this type of discussion to be put in the character boards/tier thread, I have no problem letting the thread slip into obscurity (If it does come to that though, my first 100+ post thread will be missed).
 

Amazing Ampharos

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I have heard rumors of Ally winning a random tournament with Captain Falcon. I'm just throwing that out there.

Anyway, the point is that too many players don't use any character the whole way through for such considerations to be useful, and even people who are very dedicated to single characters could switch at any time if they suddenly had a change of heart. You mentioned Azen, and isn't he kinda the proof of the thing? I wasn't under the impression people losing to Azen was particularly based on which character he felt like using that day. I'm not saying tiers don't exist or anything like that (some characters are obviously much better than others), but when you want to talk in terms of winning tournaments, the evidence I see suggests that while some characters are indeed more useful in general for it, it's better to just stop thinking of characters as the primary agents and instead to focus more on players with characters as tools.

EDIT: you got in while I was posting. My agenda is to say that calling characters practically inviable just isn't productive. This is actually going off on a tangent, but I can say, based on my own experiences, that it's nothing short of stupid to write off low tier characters. When your opponent picks a character you believe sucks (or maybe even actually sucks), what do you do? If your answer is anything but "try just as hard as you would if they had picked Meta Knight", you're really setting yourself up for a loss. Which characters are useful for you to use is really more personal than anything (my Pokemon Trainer is better than my Meta Knight and probably always will be; to me, the Pokemon Trainer is a better tool than Meta Knight... even if both pale in comparison to Mr. Game & Watch). I really question what the use of such a listing is.
 

Deathcarter

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OK, that is more clear. I do agree that all characters can make an impact on the scene. So I take it that you don't find a notion such as viability to be so easily defined, at least least compared to the way it was defined in this thread?

I must correct you that I never mentioned Azen in this thread AFAIK. It was crystal three posts above this one.
 

tgrove69

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Wai-wha- I ca-I do-

WTF IS THIS!?
/wrists

Seriously though this is not true.
Metaknight, Snake and DDD are characters who are MUCH better than Mario, Bowser and Samus.

If it were balanced, we would see the latter characters doing much better. We have seen however, that they do not, and this tells us there is an imbalance.

Okay, but that is your own opinion, and a character's performance is determined by the skill of the player. All the characters have pros and cons, but whether they are better depends of the player.
 

AlphaZealot

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MK, Snake, D3, Diddy, Wario, Falco, Olimar, GW, Pikachu, Lucario, Ice Climbers, Kirbym the list goes on.

Now, with just the best of the best playing, I would narrow the list to Snake, MK, Diddy, D3, and Falco. Maybe one or two more could come up but not many more.
 

Col. Stauffenberg

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Okay, but that is your own opinion, and a character's performance is determined by the skill of the player. All the characters have pros and cons, but whether they are better depends of the player.
No, it doesn't.

Do you seriously think you can possibly make a game with 37 distinct characters and have them all be equal? Seriously?
 

Kawaii Poyo

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MK, Snake, D3, Diddy, Wario, Falco, Olimar, GW, Pikachu, Lucario, Ice Climbers, Kirbym the list goes on.

Now, with just the best of the best playing, I would narrow the list to Snake, MK, Diddy, D3, and Falco. Maybe one or two more could come up but not many more.
When you say "the best of the best" are you referring to characters or smashers? Kirby would still be up there if you're referring to smashers, Chu is a beast, maybe also ZSS cause of Snakeee
 

Sky`

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MK, Snake, D3, Diddy, Wario, Falco, Olimar, GW, Pikachu, Lucario, Ice Climbers, Kirby the list goes on.

Now, with just the best of the best playing, I would narrow the list to Snake, MK, Diddy, D3, and Falco. Maybe one or two more could come up but not many more.

Those characters that are bolded, can't do it alone. They would need Subs to win a Regional, however they remain viable due to the fact that they are good characters and can subsist on many stages.

The one who is slashed has a terrible time against certain matchups, and therefore would have to have a sub or two to win tournaments regularly.
 

AlphaZealot

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Those characters that are bolded, can't do it alone. They would need Subs to win a Regional, however they remain viable due to the fact that they are good characters and can subsist on many stages.
Diddy can do it by himself.
some of my own recent results:

Lucario is PAWSOME - Midwest Circuit Event #1 (March 7)
Out of 49
1 - Ally (Snake)
2 - Lain (King Dedede, Ice Climbers)
3 - AlphaZealot (Diddy Kong)
4 - Needle of Juntah (Game and Watch)
T5 - Overswarm (Meta Knight, ROB)
T5 - Kel (Meta Knight)
T7 - Bowyer (Meta Knight)
T7 - Omniswell (Wolf, Meta Knight)

Loves Last Stand (February 29)
Also out of 49
1. AlphaZealot (Diddy)
2. Kel (MK)
3. YBM (Kirby)
4. Quivo (Toon Link)
5. Overswarm (MK)
5. Nope (Snake)
7. Xisin (Marth)
7. General Sang (Snake?)

I've been improving a lot in the last month or so (since COT4), but I'm just showing the MWC events as an example because I know that I only used Diddy Kong and did not use a single other character. I only lost to Lain (top 3 in MW) and Ally (top 3 in the world). I'm confident I can and will win a regional using just Diddy in the future.

That said, ADHD has already done it (and NL before ADHD but NL uses lots of characters so people use that to discredit his Diddy's achievements). So, I also give you ADHD's recent results:

Anime Spring Fest (March 14)
Out of 32 entrants:
1: ADHD ($224.00) - Diddy
2: NinjaLink ($96.00) - Marth, ROB, Luigi, Lucario.
3: Snakeee - Sheik, Zelda, ZSS.
4: D1 - Falco, MK.
5: Rookie - Fox
5: Blackanese - Snake
7: Drk.Pch - Peach
7: Wes - Sonic

Road to Veridian City (March 7)
Out of 97 entrants:
1: ADHD ($385.00) (Diddy)
2: Shadow ($192.50) (Metaknight)
3: Snakee ($115.50) (Zero Suit Samus, Zelda/Sheik)
4: D1 ($38.50) (Falco, Metaknight)
5: Rogue Pit ($19.25) (Pit)
5: Ninjalink ($19.25) (ROB, Diddy)
7: Wes (Sonic)
7: Pierce (Marth)

Also, don't slash the Ice Climbers, Meep has been getting top 3 a lot recently in MD/VA and I think even recently won a tournament.
 

|RK|

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Whatever. Most Lucario's believe he's viable alone, which he is. A 20% difference isn't enough to lose viability, and if we learn to use him over 100%, we'd be even better. I'd say everyone C+ is viable alone, because none of them have particularly bad matchups. It gets shaky though for chars like ZSS (D Tier, right?) who has some characters that are completely her opposite. Falco has been known as the Anti-Samus in both Smash games, including ZSS.
 

Mark1119

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I would say any character, but you might call me naive.

It all depends on the players abilities.
 

Falconv1.0

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Gimpyfish is a great example of the fact that not all characters are viable.

Of course I'm referencing his melee record, although I'd think he'd do about the same with Bowser in Brawl.
 

Deathcarter

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Whatever. Most Lucario's believe he's viable alone, which he is. A 20% difference isn't enough to lose viability, and if we learn to use him over 100%, we'd be even better. I'd say everyone C+ is viable alone, because none of them have particularly bad matchups. It gets shaky though for chars like ZSS (D Tier, right?) who has some characters that are completely her opposite. Falco has been known as the Anti-Samus in both Smash games, including ZSS.
Everyone above D tier are good characters, but most of them cannot do it alone. Heck, some characters in A tier cannot do it alone (aka G&W & DDD). The only characters that could do it alone that most respectable smashers could agree on would be MK, Snake, Falco, Wario, Marth, and Diddy. Those characters either have 2 or less matchups worse than 45:55 or have a 40:60 disadvantage, but have the options to overcome the advantages of the superior opponent.

Too much theorizing. -.-;

Let's just go by who has done it alone, shall we?
How would you go about which tournaments had a high enough concentration of skilled players to be factored in? Not disagreeing with your idea, but the tournaments included would continually change as Brawl evolves.
 

Falconv1.0

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I dont think tiers completely mean who/who isn't viable. Falco has stages he gets ***** by due to not being able to keep up/camp well on. Stages such as Rainbow Cruise put a heavy emphasis on this. Characters like Kirby have no hard cp when it comes to stages, at least from what I under stand.

Also, I think the idea of being able to use DDD and DDD alone to win a tourney is funny. I mean it's possible but Kirby is like 3x safer.
 

Sky`

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Diddy can do it by himself.
some of my own recent results:

Lucario is PAWSOME - Midwest Circuit Event #1 (March 7)
Out of 49
1 - Ally (Snake)
2 - Lain (King Dedede, Ice Climbers)
3 - AlphaZealot (Diddy Kong)
4 - Needle of Juntah (Game and Watch)
T5 - Overswarm (Meta Knight, ROB)
T5 - Kel (Meta Knight)
T7 - Bowyer (Meta Knight)
T7 - Omniswell (Wolf, Meta Knight)

Loves Last Stand (February 29)
Also out of 49
1. AlphaZealot (Diddy)
2. Kel (MK)
3. YBM (Kirby)
4. Quivo (Toon Link)
5. Overswarm (MK)
5. Nope (Snake)
7. Xisin (Marth)
7. General Sang (Snake?)

I've been improving a lot in the last month or so (since COT4), but I'm just showing the MWC events as an example because I know that I only used Diddy Kong and did not use a single other character. I only lost to Lain (top 3 in MW) and Ally (top 3 in the world). I'm confident I can and will win a regional using just Diddy in the future.

That said, ADHD has already done it (and NL before ADHD but NL uses lots of characters so people use that to discredit his Diddy's achievements). So, I also give you ADHD's recent results:

Anime Spring Fest (March 14)
Out of 32 entrants:
1: ADHD ($224.00) - Diddy
2: NinjaLink ($96.00) - Marth, ROB, Luigi, Lucario.
3: Snakeee - Sheik, Zelda, ZSS.
4: D1 - Falco, MK.
5: Rookie - Fox
5: Blackanese - Snake
7: Drk.Pch - Peach
7: Wes - Sonic

Road to Veridian City (March 7)
Out of 97 entrants:
1: ADHD ($385.00) (Diddy)
2: Shadow ($192.50) (Metaknight)
3: Snakee ($115.50) (Zero Suit Samus, Zelda/Sheik)
4: D1 ($38.50) (Falco, Metaknight)
5: Rogue Pit ($19.25) (Pit)
5: Ninjalink ($19.25) (ROB, Diddy)
7: Wes (Sonic)
7: Pierce (Marth)

Also, don't slash the Ice Climbers, Meep has been getting top 3 a lot recently in MD/VA and I think even recently won a tournament.
Cultivate your hunger before you Idealise


There's another Meep in the EC? Meep is like Nor-cal's #1. Huh.

However viability in my opinion is limited to tournaments that are regional. EX: Axis. Bio II, CoT4, etc.

Though those results are impressive, they still don't lead me to believe that a Diddy will come close to winning Genesis alone.

However.

I'm willing to compromise on the grounds that a proper Diddy Kong has not been exposed to me in tournament or by any other means. Brawl is still in a sense, 'new' so the metagames for said characters are still miles away from being finished. I've recently picked up diddy due to the magnitude of his potential.

But what will you do on a stage like Rainbow Cruise? Say you're in the grand finals, and your opponent plays Falco. My assumption would be that you would have banned Japes, is that right? So then your opponent CPs you hardcore, and takes you to Rainbow Cruise. He/she knows that you would be staying diddy, (Another disadvantage. If people know you only have one character, they are going to capitalize on that to the highest degree.) And then they would choose MK or even Kirby, or GaW for Rainbow. Having said that, not only are you at a matchup disadvantage with those characters, but you're also at a severe level disadvantage.

Are the statistics pointing in the direction of impossible at that point? If they are, I'm almost certain that... the matchup between MK and Diddy on RC is so bad... that it's safe to round it off to impossible.

But again, My knowledge of Diddykong is rooted from Nanerz and TC1. Correct me on any point if I'm wrong, I'm eager to learn.​


Motivate your anger, and make them all realise...
 

AlphaZealot

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Though those results are impressive, they still don't lead me to believe that a Diddy will come close to winning Genesis alone.
So long as M2K is around then technically the only viable character to win is MK. This also means that the only characters capable of winning in Melee at current are Marth and Jigglypuff. You should notice that in Road to veridian city, which is basically a regional/large local, that NL got 5th place. What place did NL get at COT4? 5th. So, different tournament, not "national" or "regional" but NL gets the exact same placement, which should give you an indication of the type of skill level at the tournament ADHD won (ie NL at COT 4 gets 5th with the best from the MW, SE, TX, MD/VA, CAN in attendance, then NL gets 5th at a tournament with just the strong NY/NJ players for the most part).

At the top of the chain it is largely about the players skill level. Characters obviously factor into it some (you can only go so far with Jiggly in Brawl), but there is only so much that can be done against the likes of M2K. Essentially, characters that don't have any completely poor match ups, like Diddy or MK or Snake, can win tournaments because it comes down to who the better player is. If you are better than M2K skillwise then you can win with Diddy/Snake/a few other characters. It is that simple. Also, you should note, that I believe Diddy is the only character M2K has lost full sets to in tournament (where MK was not banned) since last summer.

But what will you do on a stage like Rainbow Cruise? Say you're in the grand finals, and your opponent plays Falco. My assumption would be that you would have banned Japes, is that right? So then your opponent CPs you hardcore, and takes you to Rainbow Cruise. He/she knows that you would be staying diddy, (Another disadvantage. If people know you only have one character, they are going to capitalize on that to the highest degree.) And then they would choose MK or even Kirby, or GaW for Rainbow. Having said that, not only are you at a matchup disadvantage with those characters, but you're also at a severe level disadvantage.
Diddy is not helpless on other stages, this is a common misconception. I banned RC against Snakeee at COT4 because I knew that was his best stage and he took me to Norfair because he assumed like most do that Diddy is bad there. It didn't work, even though on paper you would say ZSS vs Diddy on Norfair is lopsided, possibly heavy, in ZSS's favor, Diddy has all the tools to deal with anything on every stage. I played this MW player named Infern (who came very close to knocking Ally out of winners at a tournament 2 weekends ago) 3 weekends ago and banned Pirate Ship against his Ike, he took me to Norfair instead and I 3 stock him only taking 61% (after he barely, barely lost the first game against, I was over 100%). That said, as Diddy, I expect to LOSE my CP. I don't even care about my CP half the time and usually just use it to mess with an opponent/figure the opponent out. All the weight of a set for a Diddy player is on the first game. I will win that first game against anyone I'm better than, and I will win that third game against anyone I'm better than, and in the end its about who wins the set and not who wins some random CP stage (which Diddy isn't all that bad even).

Examples from the first 2009 MWC event:
-Kel I decisively (1 stock low or mid %) beat game 1 and 3 and barely lost game 2 on his CP of Frigate while using MK (admittedly I played bad that game, overall I'm 3-2 against Kel's MK on Frigate)
-Needle of Juntah I 2 stocked games 1 and 3 (almost 3 stocked him game 3) but game 2 I lost barely by a lucky 9 from his GW.
-YBM I beat decisively 1st game and by 2 stocks the 3rd game. Game 2 I barely lost on Brinstar.

Heck, in pools, three different people tried to CP Luigi's Mansion against me, using Ice Climbers, MK, and Lucario. All three lost. I even 3 stocked the MK player.

That is basically my typical tournament. Game 3's all over the place, but in the end Diddy prevails because he can WIN the CP's if he really needs to, but he mainly just has to win game 1 and 3 (like every character, except Diddy is strongest on neutrals).

Essentially though, to make this simple:
-You overrate Diddy's weaknesses on stages
-You overrate Diddy's weaknesses against characters (his worst matchup is probably Falco and its just a slight advantage for Falco)
-You assume people always try to CP to their biggest advantage. This is false, rarely does anyone CP to give themselves the biggest possible stage/character advantage. The potential exists, it is just extremely rare.
-You also assume people can play multiple characters. Most, if not all, can't. Typically people have one really good character and then a secondary that is about 3/4ths of what the main character is, so still good but if you were going even against Diddy with one character and lost (chances being that character was roughly even with Diddy, like all characters) and then you switch to another character that character will probably get wrecked. For whatever reason people have attachment issues with characters. I could switch to MK or Falco or Toon Link or whatever, but I'm not going to, I like Diddy, he is my homeboy. Do some people have multiple characters? Yea, duh, Azen. But I would put money on ADHD against any character of Azens (except maybe Lucario, stupid Lucario is up with Falco against Diddy, plus its Azen so you know he is going to do everything right and nothing wrong ever ).
 

Marcbri

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Sky you are overrating falco there, you say Diddy isn't viable cause he gets ***** in Rainbow ride by MK, but you said Falco is viable. that must mean falco can win a MK of the same level in rainbow ride lulz.


X character being horrible in Y stage doesn't make them unviable.
option A is they ban that stage, and if there's more than one ( for example against olimar falco is screwed on luigi's mansion and corneria, bad stages for falco and good for oli) then he just loses the second game and wins the third. that simple.

oh, and the ones saying Pikachu isn't viable even if Anther wins tourneys cuz its just one person... you are wrong.
viable = character that can win tourneys if you have the skills to do it.

Anther wins tourneys with pikachu = Pikachu is viable.

and don't come here saying '' So Bowser in melee is viable cause of Gimpy?'' , if you ask this you are dumb, Gimpy didn't make in melee what Anther is doing in brawl, theres a large difference between being good with a character and constantly winning tournaments.
 

Neon Ness

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All I know is that DK isn't viable in florida since half the people here play D3
:laugh: So true, so true. I wonder why that is.

By definition viable means practicable. If it hasn't been proven through practice, i.e. if a major tournament hasn't been won by the character, then technically they can't be considered viable. But then that begs the question what counts as a 'major' tournament, as well as a lot of other things.

I don't think it matters to make a 'list', of viable characters, though. It's not as if there's some invisible line separating the viable from the non... viable. Choosing the character one spot below the bottom character on the viable list won't greatly decrease your chances of winning or anything. At the same time I guess it's not hurting anyone, though...
 

Kitamerby

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But I would put money on ADHD against any character of Azens (except maybe Lucario, stupid Lucario is up with Falco against Diddy, plus its Azen so you know he is going to do everything right and nothing wrong ever ).
Harharharharhar.


I love my main sometimes.


I really do hope Diddies start appearing more. It'll keep the other guys in check so that Lucario might become truly viable, too!
 

BentoBox

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Falco is probably gonna require a mandatory 2ndry now because of Pikachu
Pikachus are as scarce as ICs though. And both are counters.

MK, Snake, Marth, Diddy, Wario, Lucario, Kirby and ZSS are arguably only D+ characters with no matchups under 40:60~
 

Snakeee

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Pikachus are as scarce as ICs though. And both are counters.

MK, Snake, Marth, Diddy, Wario, Lucario, Kirby and ZSS are arguably only D+ characters with no matchups under 40:60~
For ZSS, I think Falco is at least 65/35 his favor. It may be the same against Metaknight and Diddy Kong too now.
 

SSJ5Goku8932

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Pikachus are as scarce as ICs though. And both are counters.

MK, Snake, Marth, Diddy, Wario, Lucario, Kirby and ZSS are arguably only D+ characters with no matchups under 40:60~
Not with tha CG lurking

People are just going to flock to him now.

They have found a one that is now........ I am not going to blab this one.


Hint: The law of nature is reversed (I am talking about a character)
 

Eddie G

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neohmarth216
~KBizzle

I've been screwing around with Pika before some stupid chaingrab became public news. Lol @ people flocking to characters for such silly reasons.​

~Midwest Represent!
 
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