Who exactly are the viable characters (for winning tournaments)?

[AllyKnight]

It went like this:

After losing 2 times with Pikachu vs my Snake, Anther switched to Sonic.

Ally: Huh Sonic? No way I'm using Snake, no fun. I'll go Captain Falcon to make it fun.

Anther: Sure.

*Grand Final Last match starts*

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

This is all very interesting. I feel outclassed here... am I allowed to keep looking?

 

[Flipstar]

Kirby - He goes neutral with Meta Knight, only has Snake, G&W and Marth as a 60:40 in the top tier area. And 60:40 is his worst match-up. Viable.

I have to disagree with you there. As a kirby main I have a hella hard time with campy snakes with somewhat decent DI and competant marths that know how to space somewhat. Seriously, Snake will kill at like 90% sometimes and you will kill him at something around 150+ if he doesn't screw up. Marth outranges the crap outta kirby and all kirby's aerial approaches are defeated by a marth ftilt. The only advantage is kirby's ability to gimp marth but getting the hits in is pretty freaking hard.

 

[Samuelson]

Lucario - His worst match-up(s) are 60:40, any character who only goes 60:40 for disadvantageous match-ups is viable.

Lucario can't win a big tourney by himself. He can win local tourney's without a secondary but any tourney with 100+ good players is pretty **** hard to win.

 

[_Phloat_]

GaW gets run over by Snake, Marth, and good MKs.. that hurts his viability a lot. With a secondary, he is beyond fine to play as =]

 

[Falconv1.0]

Kirby - He goes neutral with Meta Knight, only has Snake, G&W and Marth as a 60:40 in the top tier area. And 60:40 is his worst match-up. Viable.

Pikachu - 65:35's with Marth and Metaknight, bad, but not to the exstent he needs to counter pick.

You should read what you are saying. If you have 2 match ups that are 65-35, one of which are super whored out to the max, you reaaaaaaaaaaallllly should consider a counter pick.

All of Kirby's bad match ups are terribly gay and I cant think of a reason not to cp.

 

[Sky`]

Marth - He only has one bad match-up Meta knight, three if you count Snake and King Dedede as bad ones to, none of these are bad enough to need a counter pick.

Lucario - His worst match-up(s) are 60:40, any character who only goes 60:40 for disadvantageous match-ups is viable.

Kirby - He goes neutral with Meta Knight, only has Snake, G&W and Marth as a 60:40 in the top tier area. And 60:40 is his worst match-up. Viable.

Game & Watch - His main worries are Snake and Marth, but neither are bad enough to need a counter pick.

Olimar - Peach, Luigi, and Metaknight are his worries, Marth is debatable. He can handle any of those three without the need of a counter pick.

Diddy Kong - Single banana locks, nice match-ups, he's viable.

Pikachu - 65:35's with Marth and Metaknight, bad, but not to the exstent he needs to counter pick.

1. Listen to Samuelson.

2. Listen to Falcon/Flip.

3. I main GaW. And... Do you realize how bad those matchups are? Marth can Up B out of everything GaW Does, and it actually kills him. Snake kills him at like 3 percent. Those are HORRID matchups. That's why I sub DDD, just for them. He can't do it alone.

4. Olimar? Alone? Really? I can kill Oli at like 3 percent, Grab him off and Edgeguard. Seriously, that character is just culture shocked ATM, he'll be less threatening within time.

5. I live with N4N3RZ, and Falco destroys him. Diddy is Very very good, But I don't think he can do it alone. But this would be the one that if I had to choose one, I'd pick him.

6. No no no, see, Pikachu Mains Anther, not the other way around. Pikachu isn't viable, Anther is.=]

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I have to disagree with you there. As a kirby main I have a hella hard time with campy snakes with somewhat decent DI and competant marths that know how to space somewhat. Seriously, Snake will kill at like 90% sometimes and you will kill him at something around 150+ if he doesn't screw up. Marth outranges the crap outta kirby and all kirby's aerial approaches are defeated by a marth ftilt. The only advantage is kirby's ability to gimp marth but getting the hits in is pretty freaking hard.

Marth's attacks, except Dtilt, aren't safe on block. If you shield his Fsmash, he's got enough lag for you to smack him back with something. Gimping is something Kirby can do effectively on Marth, you can force him to UpB early and he's screwed. With Marth you need to stay on the ground and move around, it is Kirby's worst match-up, but it's not counter pick or lose.

Snake is easier than Marth, Stealing his power makes camping him back a snap. Kirby can force him into the air with a grab, Dthrow -> Utilt -> Bair. Your Bair is also faster than all of his aerials, it is hard, but not Marth bad.

Lucario can't win a big tourney by himself. He can win local tourney's without a secondary but any tourney with 100+ good players is pretty **** hard to win.

It's hard to win any 100+ good people tournament like Hobo events and such.

It's hard to play Melee captain Falcon, yet he's very similar to Lucario and could win despite having to run through his disadvantage match-ups, all four top tiers.

Lucario has enough going for him to make it past these match-ups. It's hard to play against, but it's not impossible.

He isn't hard countered, he doesn't have any "**** me please" stages, some bad ones but no "I give up" stages.

1. Listen to Samuelson.

He talked about Lucario, not Marth.

2. Listen to Falcon/Flip.

That was Samuelson, and I disagree with him.

3. I main GaW. And... Do you realize how bad those matchups are? Marth can Up B out of everything GaW Does, and it actually kills him. Snake kills him at like 3 percent. Those are HORRID matchups. That's why I sub DDD, just for them. He can't do it alone.

They are bad match-ups, but I honestly beleive they are livable bad. Neither of them hard counter G&W, and G&W still has dangerous killing power to watch for, even though landing a kill with G&W won't be easy on these two.

4. Olimar? Alone? Really? I can kill Oli at like 3 percent, Grab him off and Edgeguard. Seriously, that character is just culture shocked ATM, he'll be less threatening within time.

The fact you went with the Grab and edgehog shows you really don't know Olimar.

5. I live with N4N3RZ, and Falco destroys him. Diddy is Very very good, But I don't think he can do it alone. But this would be the one that if I had to choose one, I'd pick him.

No, Falco has an advantage on him, he doesn't even counter him to the degree he needs to counter pick. He can reflect banana's and take control of them, but Diddy has a good enough aerial game and faster smashes to make sure Falco doesn't **** him hard.

6. No no no, see, Pikachu Mains Anther, not the other way around. Pikachu isn't viable, Anther is.=]

Don't try that character mains Azen Anther crap, this is the highest level of play, and Anther does quite well against top level players with Pikachu.

He can actually top and win with Pikachu at high level tournaments, something Gimpyfish couldn't do with Bowser in Melee.

 

[Plum]

GaW gets run over by Snake, Marth, and good MKs.. that hurts his viability a lot. With a secondary, he is beyond fine to play as =]

Totally agree.

At lower levels G&W is perfectly fine on his own and can do amazing.

High levels, you are going to have to work on your matchups but certainly doable.

Top levels, get a secondary. At top levels of play G&W's problem matchups are too common to go it alone unless you can outplay all the time. I would also put Diddy on that list depending on the stage.

Without a secondary though G&W is going to have such a hard time.

Snake kills him so ridiculously early vertically where bucket braking does practically nothing.
Marth is a bit more manageable but you have to space so perfectly, not to mention that Marth can Up B through your longest range/best approach... Bair

MK can Up B through Bair too; but I would say is more doable than the other two. He doesn't have the range that Marth does on his sword which makes spacing easier but he is MK. Problems arise right there

Diddy can stop G&W's ground game but is clearly beaten in the air. But unlike a character like Jiggly G&W has to land on the ground and face him soon after he leaves it.

Does 4 bad matchups against 4 of the best characters in the game make G&W not viable?
He goes even with 3 other good characters; DK, Wario and ZSS and has clear advantages against the rest of the cast.

Going alone with G&W is going to be very hard when his worst matchups are against 4 of the top characters and having a secondary for Snake and Marth especially would be recommended.. but he is still considered viable.

So why should other characters with problem matchups be considered not viable?

 

[risemix]

It went like this:

After losing 2 times with Pikachu vs my Snake, Anther switched to Sonic.

Ally: Huh Sonic? No way I'm using Snake, no fun. I'll go Captain Falcon to make it fun.

Anther: Sure.

*Grand Final Last match starts*

I hope this doesn't seem bromantic, but of all the top players I think you and Snakee are the nicest and most accessible (that is, you pop into threads like this).

As for the thread: ZSS is without a doubt the most underestimated character and is tourney viable. I think Yoshi would be, more so, with better recovery.

 

[Eddie G]

It's a shame that Brawl feels so restricted in a sense that other than MK, you **** near have to use a secondary for some matchups. At least in Melee, there were a handful of characters that could do it alone. Forgive my reminiscent sounding contribution.

 

[Boxob.]

Regardless of what people say. Sonic isn't tourney viable.

Promise.

 

[Plum]

I hope this doesn't seem bromantic, but of all the top players I think you and Snakee are the nicest and most accessible (that is, you pop into threads like this).

As for the thread: ZSS is without a doubt the most underestimated character and is tourney viable. I think Yoshi would be, more so, with better recovery.

I would say Yoshi's recovery is just fine.
Top aerial mobility in the game means that if he is above the stage he will float back no matter what basically. His Up B can extend his recovery a wee bit, not much but it is something, and he won't enter the falling state from it either so he is free to attack again. His double jump has the weak super armor so he can pass through any weak attack, and he can airdodge through any attack that would knock him out of his double jump.

Yoshi's problem is that he basically goes even with everbody. He is rarely going to be in the better position throughout the match. The only thing that really makes Yoshi unique to other characters would be his grab release options but that alone won't turn the tides in his favor.
I would say that yeah, Yoshi has the possibility to win but while he does well in all aspects he doesn't excel in much at all. Yoshi has a good ground game, not the best. Yoshi has a good air game, not the best. Yoshi has a good grab game, not the best. Yoshi has a good recovery, not the best.

 

[BentoBox]

You should read what you are saying. If you have 2 match ups that are 65-35, one of which are super whored out to the max, you reaaaaaaaaaaallllly should consider a counter pick.

All of Kirby's bad match ups are terribly gay and I cant think of a reason not to cp.

If you need a CP for Kirby's bad match-ups, then they really aren't 60-40s~

 

[Falconv1.0]

If you need a CP for Kirby's bad match-ups, then they really aren't 60-40s~

You dont need cp's, there's just no reason NOT TO.

Read the mother****ing post.

 

[goodkid]

Zelda/Sheik should rise up w/ time. I main Zelda, but lately I think picking up Sheik will help in Zelda's horrid matchups like Snake, G&W, & Olimar(rare). Zelda/Sheik are viable together, but not seperate. Pit is viable as well, his camping game is too good, u can easily plank much better w/ Pit than MK because of arrows, once more players learn how good pit is, he will be feared in the future. ZSS as well, she's under the radar, but when people open their eyes, they'll see how good she really is, I mean that paralyzer is too good. She handles Snake pretty well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA7qgaeMZPU

 

[BentoBox]

I read the post, but that doesn't take away from what I said. There is NO reason not to CP for every matchup in which you might be at a disadvantage, regardless of your character, so clearly, stating the obvious isn't leading us anywhere. I was arguing the manageability of taking on these characters. According to you, is Kirby viable? (defining viable as one that can do it alone)

You are one angry bear.

 

[Eddie G]

I read the post, but that doesn't take away from what I said. There is NO reason not to CP for every matchup in which you might be at a disadvantage, regardless of your character, so clearly, stating the obvious isn't leading us anywhere. I was arguing the manageability of taking on these characters. According to you, is Kirby viable? (defining viable as one that can do it alone)

You are one angry bear.

Told you so. Most of his posts consist of blatant trolling anyway. XP

Contribution to the topic: I myself believe he is viable despite his sketchy couple of matchups.

 

[Irsic]

Lucario can't win a big tourney by himself. He can win local tourney's without a secondary but any tourney with 100+ good players is pretty **** hard to win.

But this basically a ridiculous statement since big tournaments have big names, and not everyone is a big name. This is where skill is a big factor as you have to have someone that is as skilled with Lucario as they are with the biggest names out there. Lee Martin disagrees with you at CoT4.

 

[Falconv1.0]

I read the post, but that doesn't take away from what I said. There is NO reason not to CP for every matchup in which you might be at a disadvantage, regardless of your character, so clearly, stating the obvious isn't leading us anywhere. I was arguing the manageability of taking on these characters. According to you, is Kirby viable? (defining viable as one that can do it alone)

You are one angry bear.

I have said multiple times I believe he is viable, but I would much rather cp against his gay match ups.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I have said multiple times I believe he is viable, but I would much rather cp against his gay match ups.

This summarizes my point.

It is easier to counter pick bad match-ups than to play them out, none of them at this moment, are forced to counter pick or lose.

 

[BentoBox]

I thought we were done with stupid **** like this last year. Holy crap, Gimpy did not make Bowser viable at all, people who played characters that beat Bowser bad that were even close to Gimpy's level beat him. Bowser isn't viable, Gimpy is just so good that his skill allowed him to get far, but in the end Bowser weighed him down.

@Sky-Hasn't Chudat won tourneys or at the least done very well with Kirby alone? I mean, I myself have said he should have a sub, but I dont see it being that impossible.

You should read what you are saying. If you have 2 match ups that are 65-35, one of which are super whored out to the max, you reaaaaaaaaaaallllly should consider a counter pick.

All of Kirby's bad match ups are terribly gay and I cant think of a reason not to cp.

I have said multiple times I believe he is viable, but I would much rather cp against his gay match ups.

Multiple times? Really? The closest thing to claiming he was viable is you stating that you don't see it being that impossible. But k.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Multiple times? Really? The closest thing to claiming he was viable is you stating that you don't see it being that impossible. But k.

I meant in general on the boards, but I get your point.

 

[M@v]

This should be changed to "Viable by themselves". Almost any character can be used in tourneys if you pick your secondaries right. Ex. Fox/Lucario covers most bases well, with only some slight trouble from marth, mk, and GW.

 

[Pr0phetic]

I'm surprised this thread is still open 0.o

@Post about Lee Martin: He used MK aswell.

@Goodkid: Planking doesn't have to do with arrows 0.o That's camping. And Pit's an average character, in good hands he is viable, but not as much as other top-tier charcters.

 

[Gindler]

I think you got the list about right.

Add Yoshi to the very bottom. Maybe add Pikachu.

And I would consider your choice about Donkey Kong, seeing as he gets infinited and all.

Is this list in any particular order or not?

I agree with this, he's probably on the VERY bottom of the viable characters list since he rarely ever has a BAD matchup. The only real problems are GW and Marth and for those he has to play like a campy lil' ***** (like olimar)


Oh and he has a good recovery. how often to people get footstooled anyway, that's what rising airdodge/aerials are for.

 

[PolMex23]

Luigi is an actual strong possibility, but with D3s u must CP so maybe...

 

[yummynbeefy]

anyones viable if used correctly

 

[AranOcean]

will PWANCH your way to victory. I promise.

Spoiler

OK, I lied. He sucks. To win a tournament, I'd probably go with overpowered Snake.

 

[hundreds of utilts]

anyones viable if used correctly

QFT


(except maybe gannon lol)

 

[Falconv1.0]

QFT


(except maybe gannon lol)

More like quoted for scrub tastic lies. If you seriously think Gimpy didn't place really high in tourneys with Bowser because people were so much better than him your on drugs.

 

[Nixernator]

The point of the matter is that if you are way better (like M2k to scrub better) than your opponent you could win any tournament with any character, its just that noone is the ridiculously good so it doesn't happen.

 

[tgrove69]

anyones viable if used correctly

Exactly. Most of the characters are evenly balanced anyway. It all boils down to tactics and skill.

 

[Eddie G]

Exactly. Most of the characters are evenly balanced anyway. It all boils down to tactics and skill.

I wish I could agree with you on that but it simply isn't true unless you are playing on the absolute lowest skill level possible. With competition, new discoveries, and advancement of the metagame; balance between characters in the roster is heavily influenced and certain characters are shown to be clearly better than other characters, despite "tactics and skill". Again, as I pointed out, "tactics and skill" only heavily influences an otherwise difficult or nearly un-winnable matchup when the matchup is being played at a very low skill level.

In short: Top level competition says "GTFO" to that theory.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Exactly. Most of the characters are evenly balanced anyway. It all boils down to tactics and skill.

Did you miss my post like two posts up from yours dude.

They are not even close to being evenly balanced, get out of fantasy land.

 

[Ussi]

if this were balanced, the tourney results would say so.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Exactly. Most of the characters are evenly balanced anyway. It all boils down to tactics and skill.

Wai-wha- I ca-I do-

WTF IS THIS!?
/wrists

Seriously though this is not true.
Metaknight, Snake and DDD are characters who are MUCH better than Mario, Bowser and Samus.

If it were balanced, we would see the latter characters doing much better. We have seen however, that they do not, and this tells us there is an imbalance.

 

[Falconv1.0]

DDD has more bad match ups than Wario last time I checked. I'd appreciate it if we didn't over rate him so much.

That being said I still think DDD is gay as ****.

 

[Sosuke]

Toon Link.

imo. =)

 

[Nibbles 2]

I believe there's a magical list, full of wonder and joy, known as the 'Tier List' that ranks characters. You could use that to look at viable characters...

Just saying.