Who exactly are the viable characters (for winning tournaments)?

[Deathcarter]

There tends to not be agreement on who the viable characters are. Which characters actually have a shot at winning a decently sized tournament? By decently sized, I would say one with an attendence of at least 70. And my standerds of viable are basically something that can win a tournament with minimal use of a secondary.

IMO, the viable characters are:

MK
Snake
Falco
DDD
G&W
Marth
Diddy
Wario
Olimar
R.O.B.
Kirby
Lucario
Donkey Kong (?)
Ice Climbers (?)
Pikachu (?) leaning towards a yes
Zero Suit Samus (?) leaning towards a yes

Do you guys agree/disagree with this? Discuss.

EDIT: Elaborated on my definition of viable more. Also changed Donkey Kong and Ice Climbers to maybes.

 

[Mith_]

I think you got the list about right.

Add Yoshi to the very bottom. Maybe add Pikachu.

And I would consider your choice about Donkey Kong, seeing as he gets infinited and all.

Is this list in any particular order or not?

 

[AvariceX]

All of those characters can win and have won tournaments, so it's a pretty good list and I wouldn't really add anyone else to it. Actually I'd probably drop Lucario too, he's really overrated...although some people (Lee Martin) win with him, so I guess he can stay. The only pika who wins tournaments is Anther. Pika's biggest redeeming factor in tourneys is that it was always thought he had an edge on Snake, but then Ally pretty thoroughly stomped the best Pika (Anther did get a 2-stock in on the first game though) which threw that advantage over Snake into question.

 

[ndayday]

I'd say anything above E Tier is decent. So, I'd say:

Meta Knight
Snake
Falco
King Dedede
Mr. Game & Watch
Marth
Diddy Kong
Wario
R.O.B.
Lucario
Olimar
Pikachu
Kirby
Donkey Kong
Ice Climbers
Zero Suit Samus
Toon Link
Pit

I added Pikachu, ZSS, Toon Link, and Pit.

 

[Freezewish]

@ OP:

Add Lucario and Zero Suit Samus. Outside of that it looks about right.

Im not to sure about ROB and DK though.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

definitely pika. regardless of anther losing to ally, he's still proven that pika's tournament material. We dont say ICs arent viable because Lain lost to Teh Spammer. Everything else looks good

 

[Deathcarter]

All of those characters can win and have won tournaments, so it's a pretty good list and I wouldn't really add anyone else to it. Actually I'd probably drop Lucario too, he's really overrated...although some people (Lee Martin) win with him, so I guess he can stay. The only pika who wins tournaments is Anther. Pika's biggest redeeming factor in tourneys is that it was always thought he had an edge on Snake, but then Ally pretty thoroughly stomped the best Pika (Anther did get a 2-stock in on the first game though) which threw that advantage over Snake into question.

Recently, I have not seen Pikachu as a very capable force in tournaments. He is outprioritized by everyone above him except Olimar and Wario, but they have excellent defensive games to compensate. As I see it, he, Zero Suit Samus, and Toon Link are in a purgatory between viability and unviability. The three of them could go either way. He is quite solid though and I do not see him ever leaving high tier.

@ OP:

Add Lucario and Zero Suit Samus. Outside of that it looks about right.

Im not to sure about ROB and DK though.

Lucario is already on that list. As for DK, he holds his own pretty well against every character in the game except Ice Climbers, DDD, Olimar, and Falco. With Olimar and Falco, they are not really any worse than G&W v. Marth. As for DDD and Ice Climbers, yes they are pretty bad for DK, but fairing well against 6 out of the perceived best 8 is quite an acomplishment. Provided he gets wrecked by ICs and DDD, but for the most part, DK will be carrying his own weight for his player although his player will need a secondary, but as long as it does not overtake the playtime of the main, a secondary is not really a bad thing.

As for R.O.B., he is simply a very solid character. His only bad matchup is G&W, everything else in the top tier is managable. Though I can see why you would question R.O.B.; despite him being in the top 10, most character boards (well, every board except the Olimar boards) do not consider him a significant threat.

 

[tha_carter]

If you mean characters that have been PROVEN to be viable, i would add;
sonic, pikachu, toonlink, peach, samus, luigi, wolf, pit and ZZS....

as they all have placed top 4/5 at 70+ sized tourneys...

If you mean, POTENTIAL to be viable, id say ever character has that....

 

[Veng]

Jas.

Why isn't pikachu on this list?

Anthers placed 1st at least 70 tournaments himself.

Sounds tournament viable to me.

 

[Blad01]

Yeah and Gimpy made Bower viable in Melee, right ?

In theory you shouldn't look at particular players results to determine whether a character is viable or not.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Yeah and Gimpy made Bower viable in Melee, right ?

In theory you shouldn't look at particular players results to determine whether a character is viable or not.

no, gimpy tried to prove bowser was tournament viable. Even he says himself that bowser 'isnt good'

 

[Delvro]

don't we already have quite a bit of data on the viability of characters in tournaments? Ankoku's list?

Their point value is their viability. Seems easy enough, unless you're talking about characters' metagames evolving.

Metaknight has 2670 viability. Link has 10 viability. Everyone else is in between

 

[Sukai]

You know what would make this thread a win?
If you provided a summary of all the viable characters.
That would widen the center of dicussion of viability.

 

[Deathcarter]

don't we already have quite a bit of data on the viability of characters in tournaments? Ankoku's list?

Their point value is their viability. Seems easy enough, unless you're talking about characters' metagames evolving.

Metaknight has 2670 viability. Link has 10 viability. Everyone else is in between

Lolz Ironically, the characters in C rank and above on Ankoku's list are basically the ones I listed and Zero Suit Samus. I haven't even looked at that thread for a while; I basically just listed characters from the top of my head.

EDIT: At Knuxrouge, that is an interesting idea. Unfortunately, I am not versed in the intricicies of any characters metagame. If I were to make a summary (an in-depth one mind you worthy of win), I would need to go over to every character's board and talk with good mains of the character to gather all of the info I could. Only then could I make an accurate enough summary for every character. That is when this thread could be win.

Likewise, anyone who has lurked the boards long enough could make a decent list of good tourney characters while not sounding idiotic. If you do want to see my opinion on each viable character, I would need some time, but I could type them if anyone is interested.

 

[Sukai]

don't we already have quite a bit of data on the viability of characters in tournaments? Ankoku's list?

Their point value is their viability. Seems easy enough, unless you're talking about characters' metagames evolving.

Metaknight has 2670 viability. Link has 10 viability. Everyone else is in between

That list isn't about viability, it's tourney results.
Although it can be argued that it can be interpreted into viability, but I really can't agree with "Fox is more viable than Peach in a tourney".
The Character ranking list is actually more or less the result of a viability, with some calculations on real life player skill and usage.

EDIT:

If you do want to see my opinion on each viable character, I would need some time, but I could type them if anyone is interested.

I didn't expect it to be fast, and it never hurts to get info from others, in contrast to doing it all on your own.
And if I wasn't interested, I wouldn't have suggested it.

 

[Irsic]

Ehhh, for some reason I'm lead to believe Ike deserves to be on the list as well.

 

[mostwins]

I made a thread about this some time ago and i got very different answers.

But Pika seems to be coming up in this thread I'll talk about him

Pika doesn't have any unmanageable matchups really, Marth and Meta are borderline unmanageable, but hey every character has a hard time with MK. So that leaves Marth and one character out of 37 isn't bad.

Wario is pretty tough for Pika but Wario's lack of projectile means you can camp him with Tjolt, and that's a plus.

GnW and ROB are a disadvantage but still very manageable

Diddy is slightly in Diddy's favor because Pika can deal with that bananas better than most.

DK should stay on the list, just because one character (D3) can destroy him does not make him unviable in any way DK is still a good character, besides DK character should have a counterpick for D3 anyways. like Pika! =]

 

[Irsic]

Peach should probably be on that list, too.

 

[Anther]

All of those characters can win and have won tournaments, so it's a pretty good list and I wouldn't really add anyone else to it. Actually I'd probably drop Lucario too, he's really overrated...although some people (Lee Martin) win with him, so I guess he can stay. The only pika who wins tournaments is Anther. Pika's biggest redeeming factor in tourneys is that it was always thought he had an edge on Snake, but then Ally pretty thoroughly stomped the best Pika (Anther did get a 2-stock in on the first game though) which threw that advantage over Snake into question.

People always make up matchups for pika. At best pika vs snake is even, he's never really had a direct advantage over snake. Me and ally's matches tend to be very close overall online and offline, I just didn't have a good set in those finals =]. Quite a few pika players place well all over, so I don't know how he's not viable all of a sudden because there just aren't many pika's =p.
Lucario's also stupid good, no johns. XD

Pika does good against marth because he generally takes a lot longer to die, and has some pretty good tricks against general marth play...
MK's just a slight disadvantage when it comes to edgeguard play, but when it comes to killing MK dies a lot sooner.

 

[King~]

to add to what was just said

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=224329

idk anther, and pika pika winning alot and the rest placing pretty well. im not sure how pika isnt tourney viable, he dosent really have that many bad matchups and none of them are unwinniable.

 

[z5kaento5z]

I'd say that Pika is tourney-viable. The only character that personally gives me a lot of trouble is Marth. Pika actually fares better against MK than many others I'd say.

 

[camzaman]

Ness is tourney viable. discuss.

 

[Xyro77]

Some people think being able to WIN a tournament means that that character is viable.

Thats stupid.

Making top 8 with a character proves he/she is viable. In other words all characters are viable. If a character all across the US can never place top 8 in (decent sized events) then he/she is not viable.

 

[Kinzer]

If you mean characters that have been PROVEN to be viable, i would add;
sonic, pikachu, toonlink, peach, samus, luigi, wolf, pit and ZZS....

as they all have placed top 4/5 at 70+ sized tourneys...

If you mean, POTENTIAL to be viable, id say ever character has that....

LOL no. I know this is silly of me to say, but Sonic can only get so far in a tournament, but he can't get a victory if a tourney has a lot of people in it that are good.

Reason being is because he is a bad character whose metagame revolves mostly around mindgames and fakeouts, and that's all player-dependent.

I'm sure if we had perfect players, Sonic would be garbage, but he's still a tourney threat because nobody is going to be able to keep up with every mindgame/trick Sonic has in his arsenal, even if they do look for the information.

 

[Levitas]

Some people think being able to WIN a tournament means that that character is viable.

Thats stupid.

Making top 8 with a character proves he/she is viable. In other words all characters are viable. If a character all across the US can never place top 8 in (decent sized events) then he/she is not viable.

going into some sort of car race with a lawnmower engine may be possible, but certainly isn't viable.

There are instances of lucas getting top 4, but he's certainly not viable.

 

[hundreds of utilts]

i kinda feel there's alot of over estimation of ZSS, and alot of under estimation of wolf

 

[Xyro77]

going into some sort of car race with a lawnmower engine may be possible, but certainly isn't viable.

There are instances of lucas getting top 4, but he's certainly not viable.

then the name of this thread and the term viable needs to be changed to "what characters can win tournaments"

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

I was going to jump this thread's maker if Lucario wasn't on the list.

Be that as it may, I still think that it's more up to the player than just the character, since some people ARE good at beasting the Mind-Games with Sonic... and despite being bottom tier, there are some people who **** with Falcon as well, who'd and have done wonderfully in tournaments.... YOU LITTLE PEOPLE WHO LIKE PLAYING WITH FALCON NEED TO RISE UP AND SHOW EVERYONE ELSE WHAT YOU ARE CAPABLE OF!

The chances are low that people like that will go to MLG or OTL tournaments and fully clean house.... but it's not impossible. People's minds can turn the tide of battle around just as much as, oh say, Lucario's Aura does.

 

[Sukai]

then the name of this thread and the term viable needs to be changed to "what characters can win tournaments"

You seemed to have missed his point...
To the best of my half conscious comprehension, Being able to win tournaments = viable, more so in this context in this thread than your interpretation.

 

[Sky`]

I see Viable as, Able to win a tournament by themselves, which would X out most of that list.
DK especially, cause he gets infinited.

I'd say, MK, Falco, Snake, Wario.

Those four are tournament Viable.
The rest are Viable if you've got a sub backing you up. =]

 

[Sky`]

Peach should probably be on that list, too.

Nope. Not never.

 

[Albert.]

I see Viable as, Able to win a tournament by themselves, which would X out most of that list.
DK especially, cause he gets infinited.

I'd say, MK, Falco, Snake, Wario.

Those four are tournament Viable.
The rest are Viable if you've got a sub backing you up. =]

UM add Marth. hes good advantage or neutral match ups VS like most of the cast. and his bad match ups don't destroy him

 

[Sky`]

UM add Marth. hes good advantage or neutral match ups VS like most of the cast. and his bad match ups don't destroy him

I was thinking about marth, but I personally don't think he can do it alone, just due to the fact that it's terribly easy to Gimp him. =/

 

[Hive]

If you mean characters that have been PROVEN to be viable, i would add;
sonic, pikachu, toonlink, peach, samus, luigi, wolf, pit and ZZS....

as they all have placed top 4/5 at 70+ sized tourneys...

If you mean, POTENTIAL to be viable, id say ever character has that....

LOL ^^ I'm sorry the carter, samus will never have the capacity to win a major tourney ^^
I think that is a pretty safe bet.
mks, ddds, falcos, and marths all have death win percents on her... there's just no way...
even cracking top 20 of a major tourney of say 200-300 people is almost miraculous for her ^^

On the other hand, i really think zss could be on the edge of viability. i think claw (wcsl) and raretruffle at least proved that it should be considered strongly.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I see Viable as, Able to win a tournament by themselves, which would X out most of that list.
DK especially, cause he gets infinited.

I'd say, MK, Falco, Snake, Wario.

Those four are tournament Viable.
The rest are Viable if you've got a sub backing you up. =]

No offense but that statement is laughable.

Plenty of Top and High tiers don't need a secondary to compete. 60-40's don't need counter picks.

 

[The Real Inferno]

I've always thought of Tournament Viability as: "Can I compete with Meta Knight, Snake, Falco & DDD" If yes then they are viable, if not, then they are certainly not very viable at any tournament where people of a high level of skill who main those characters are present.

 

[Zankoku]

Take any respectable, 32-man or greater tournament, and determine which characters tend to win them. Those are the viable characters.

NOTE: Do not mistake "population" for "respectability." Tournaments in Anime conventions can pull in upwards of 250 entrants, but you're not going to get an accurate measure of character viability from those. At the same time, it needs to be a decent size in order to make sure the character in question can stand the test of versatility and consistency in a large enough field of competition as well as ensure representation from a sufficient variety of possible characters.

 

[Turbo Ether]

MK, Snake, Diddy, Falco, Marth, Wario.

 

[Ismael]

I think you guys are putting things out of perspective. The most viable character would be the character that on average does well and wins tournaments. Not based on the pros that use them.

People are saying "Pika should be in the list... because Anther is good with him". Uh, so???
Boss is good with Mario but that dosn't make Mario a viable character. And the fact that people name only one good player rather than a host of them is even more laughable.

I think we pretty much covered all the characters that really have a decent chance competitively. Mario = Awsome. But Mario = not a very viable choice to win a large tournament.

 

[Cheapless Jared]

True true, but I believe it is someones skill, opposed to the character they use, even though the character they use is important as well.