JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
i find Dins more often than not a meh camping tool, so shes not really the best of campers.
her recovery is kinda meh too and shes not that simple cause she has precision needs and bad at approaching.
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What do you think Zelda's placement will be on the June tier list?
- Thread starter lil cj
- Start date
MrEh
Smash Hero
Her camp game is abysmal. It's good for forcing an approach against those with no way around it, but nothing else. Seriously, Zelda is outcamped by nearly everyone that can fire a projectile faster then herself, which is almost everyone really. (or someone like Wario, who can just dodge Din's all day)
And predictable.
Haha, no. That would mean that Zelda is almost as good as Wario or ROB, which is clearly not true.
Kill power does not equal good. If that were true, Ganon would be top tier.
Her only flaw is her weight? How about her predictability, lack of options, and her horrible approach?
No, because unlike MK, Sheik's recovery sucks and she can't kill anything. Sheik can't compare to MK.
But she can't kill. Unless you plan on gimping MK for all 3 of hsi stocks. In that case, go ahead and try.
You can't be serious. lol
Darkmusician
Smash Master
There are a couple things I don't agree with.Zelda isnt that bad at all...she's simple to use but she has massive kill power
Her only flaw is her weight and that can be worked around if you play defensively.
Sheik has potential and might be the next MK
She has the speed, godly ftilt/combos, and gimping ability
Who knows she could end up being one of the best like she was in Melee
Maybe if transform was faster like in Melee
More people would use them together more
Maybe theres some sort of technique that speeds up the transformation time
1. Her lack of vitality (light weight) is one of her flaws for sure but to say that is her ONLY flaw is far from the truth. And I have played enough Zeldas to know that playing defensive does not help her much. I have played Zeldas on wifi who have literally stood still like statues and just wait. Playing defensive isn't the answer. You have to play smart. That includes being defensive but also selectively aggressive and clever. I cannot stress enough how important it is to play smart. Zelda's potential comes from reading, spacing and baiting more than anything. I strongly advise all Zelda mains to focus more on this aspect than constantly relying on percent combos down tilt locks and frame data. This is of course not to take anything away from said locks and other technical data. Those do have their uses too.
2. Sheik will not even come close to being the next MK. No...just...no. With the current characters the way they are now Sheik will have no chance at being top tier. And one of the HUGE difference between Sheik/Zelda and MK is that Sheik and Zelda have bad/horrible match ups. They also have bad stages and can be brick walled be certain characters. MK doesn't have to worry about stuff like this.
However, I do agree that Sheik should and quite possible will move up the tier list. How dramatic of a jump it'll be I don't know.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
Dark where do you find these statuesqe Zeldas? i haven't seen one of them since aug08
Darkmusician
Smash Master
Most of them have either left swf or have quit altogether. I've fought several via youtube and my other various contact sites.
It's annoying because I can just stand there and do nothing and they'll do the exact same thing. The statue method I've experienced on different extremes but overall I would say definitely lacking in balance of offense and defense.
Zelda dittos (or vs Zelda in general) is my favorite match up so I see alot of weird stuff. And on the other hand I also see alot of players with talent and potential.
It's annoying because I can just stand there and do nothing and they'll do the exact same thing. The statue method I've experienced on different extremes but overall I would say definitely lacking in balance of offense and defense.
Zelda dittos (or vs Zelda in general) is my favorite match up so I see alot of weird stuff. And on the other hand I also see alot of players with talent and potential.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
oh i see. *goes back to work on offensive strategies*
lil cj
Smash Lord
I guess i was wrong about Sheik
but remember MK was thought to be sucky too at first and everyone thought he couldnt kill either now look at him...maybe i exaggerated when i said Sheik would be the next MK lol
Marth has a better chance of that happening
As for Zelda...i dont know why people dont see what I see in this character
She has potential to be great
DM Ive seen all of your vids
and Ive seen you beat most of Zelda's bad matchups
Even MK and Snake
That proves something
Its because you play smart and know what Zelda is capable of
but remember MK was thought to be sucky too at first and everyone thought he couldnt kill either now look at him...maybe i exaggerated when i said Sheik would be the next MK lol
Marth has a better chance of that happening
As for Zelda...i dont know why people dont see what I see in this character
She has potential to be great
DM Ive seen all of your vids
and Ive seen you beat most of Zelda's bad matchups
Even MK and Snake
That proves something
Its because you play smart and know what Zelda is capable of
I actually find frame data really useful... ^^
I think you can play smart whilst knowing about potential tilt 'locks' and good damage-building setups in mind. Just don't abuse them in a really predictable way xD
I think one can incorporate said locks and setups smartly instead of ignoring them altogether though.
EDIT:: with MK and Snake, she needs to take huge risks against them whilst on the other hand they can camp to their heart's content.
I think you can play smart whilst knowing about potential tilt 'locks' and good damage-building setups in mind. Just don't abuse them in a really predictable way xD
I think one can incorporate said locks and setups smartly instead of ignoring them altogether though.
EDIT:: with MK and Snake, she needs to take huge risks against them whilst on the other hand they can camp to their heart's content.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
MK also has a 2frame move that can KO even when decayed to hell and back.
sniperworm
Smash Ace
Unfortunately this is true. I love Din's, I love to camp, and I love to outcamp people with Zelda. That being said, you have to know your character's limitations and Din's is pretty limited as far as pure camping.
Argh, you being so truthful is killing me Chad.
If grab-release DACUS counts as a gimp, then yes, I intend to gimp him EVERY SINGLE LIFE, lol.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Darkmusician
Smash Master
She has potential to do good. Not great. As of right now MK has no equal and I don't see any character catching him in terms of tournament usage/dominance.I guess i was wrong about Sheik
but remember MK was thought to be sucky too at first and everyone thought he couldnt kill either now look at him...maybe i exaggerated when i said Sheik would be the next MK lol
Marth has a better chance of that happening
As for Zelda...i dont know why people dont see what I see in this character
She has potential to be great
DM Ive seen all of your vids
and Ive seen you beat most of Zelda's bad matchups
Even MK and Snake
That proves something
Its because you play smart and know what Zelda is capable of
Thank you for watching my videos. I appreciate it.
Honestly I see so much theory but I have yet to see any massive application in tournaments. And I never said that the techs/locks weren't important. It's just that seems to be the sole focus for alot of Zelda mains and it's not enough to get the job done. And I also want to add that my playstyle took a very long time to evolve to what it is today and you really have to be dedicated to making adjustments and admit what's not working. Playing smart isn't something that you can pick up over the weekend.
I'm just being honest.
Villi
Smash Lord
The direction the Zelda boards are going with their theories isn't toward a bad place with the understanding that many of the new discoveries are situational at best and gimmicky at worst. Creating a Zelda who constantly makes the right choice situation after situation does take a lot of work and finesse. Integrating her setups in a homogeneous way will only make Zelda stronger in a fight when those situations present themselves or are properly set up.
Jab setups are ok, and jab is an ok move; but just look at where she is open during the attack compared to where she strikes. It's slow on startup and quick to end -- it's just not a powerful move offensively or defensively. Situations where a jab is precisely the correct move to have used are far between. Will a situation occur between 40-50% where jab is a good option? It's just one thing to look for, and although it would be her best damage output at that specific point, doesn't mean it's gonna happen.
Dtilt is a good move. This is a move I have personally applied in tournament matches with success. It sets up for damage, kills, and puts opponents in situations where they are at a strategic disadvantage. At 50%, a fresh dtilt leads into another dtilt and if the opponent commands any respect (correct ASDI) in that situation, finish it off with a dsmash for a spike set up. On trip, it's possible to roll chase with more dtilts or a lightning kick (run shield; you have 19 frames to note their reaction -- if they roll - shield stop dtilt, if they get up - bair from behind them). If only two dtilts have been used at 50%, it should be refreshed enough to set up an up tilt/up smash kill at an appropriate percentage.
And while I think she has decent tools at her disposal, I still think she's overestimated on the tier list. I like her. I main her and use her alongside Sheik in tournament, but she needs to be very quick and very careful in order to out play her opponent.
Jab setups are ok, and jab is an ok move; but just look at where she is open during the attack compared to where she strikes. It's slow on startup and quick to end -- it's just not a powerful move offensively or defensively. Situations where a jab is precisely the correct move to have used are far between. Will a situation occur between 40-50% where jab is a good option? It's just one thing to look for, and although it would be her best damage output at that specific point, doesn't mean it's gonna happen.
Dtilt is a good move. This is a move I have personally applied in tournament matches with success. It sets up for damage, kills, and puts opponents in situations where they are at a strategic disadvantage. At 50%, a fresh dtilt leads into another dtilt and if the opponent commands any respect (correct ASDI) in that situation, finish it off with a dsmash for a spike set up. On trip, it's possible to roll chase with more dtilts or a lightning kick (run shield; you have 19 frames to note their reaction -- if they roll - shield stop dtilt, if they get up - bair from behind them). If only two dtilts have been used at 50%, it should be refreshed enough to set up an up tilt/up smash kill at an appropriate percentage.
And while I think she has decent tools at her disposal, I still think she's overestimated on the tier list. I like her. I main her and use her alongside Sheik in tournament, but she needs to be very quick and very careful in order to out play her opponent.
Tristan_win
Not dead.
With all honestly I thought Zelda would drop like a rock on the coming up tier list but after seeing this convincing counter argument I have to say my thoughts have changed.
Now I think Zelda will be okay, I mean seriously, look at this
Mattbachnick is soo good.
Now I think Zelda will be okay, I mean seriously, look at this
Mattbachnick is soo good.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Canvasofgrey
Smash Ace
His female characters have the same general face structure, I noticed. XD
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
You'd think that her buffs would boost her on the tier list. Oh well.
Also, I'm of the opinion that it's harder for her to recover in this game than in Melee.
Also, I'm of the opinion that it's harder for her to recover in this game than in Melee.
gm jack
Smash Lord
But being able to damage and ledge stealing with the end of Fayore's does take away some of the ease of gimping her when she is send far enough that she can only just grab the edge.
As for Zelda's placement, I do feel that Ninjalink is right in the point where we need to consider tactics and playstyle to a higher level rather than just get the few setups we know she has refined further and further. Knowing the % that a fresh Dtilt sets up to a Dsmash is useful, but finding ways to catch them off guard may have more of a impact on improving her. For example, Pikachu can "bounce" out of quick attacks into aerials, which is going to catch you off guard if you have never seen it, of if it comes out of the blue.
EDIT And if people are really trying to boost the ranking, it may be worth considering setting up some communication with the Shiek boards for a way to discuss the best ways to use the two together. For a lot of matchups, swapping between the two is more effective than one or the other. There are some where it is best to stick as one, but the Zelda/shiek character is clearly better than one of them on their own, as you can still just stick as one of them if one of the pair gets destroyed in a certain matchup.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Right, the hitbox on the end of Farore's is definitely a very nice addition for the move in general, and it can be used for even more than recovery (like a follow-up if you decide to warp away for spacing but you actually land the first hitbox).
It's just that nowadays, players know how to abuse the slow start-up and negate that. The problem I have with her recovery in this game is the fact that it's harder to warp somewhere far into the stage than it was in Melee. For example, in Melee Battlefield, she could be quite far away and warp to the top platform of Battlefield, even if she reappeared "through" it. In Brawl, she just keeps falling in a helpless state because of how hard it is to get her full body above the platform without doing something super obvious. You could do that on Dream Land 64 and Yoshi's Island, too. Plus, people don't expect you to warp into them in Melee, while in Brawl, it's standard to just shield, so it doesn't really do all that much if you're trying to pick a spot and you're hoping for the hitbox to help.
My main qualm, however, is how hard it is for me to sweetspot the edge in Brawl, but that's more my fault *coughedgescough*.
But whatever, while her recovery isn't the best, it's not the biggest reason for one to be turned off by Zelda unless you can just stay off the stage. My personal biggest/current problem is that I cannot get off the ledge and on the stage. I don't know what the hell to do. I can scrape together an approach, but I can't get on the stage safely at all, and I think this is part of the reason why I started on her recovery in the first place.
It's just that nowadays, players know how to abuse the slow start-up and negate that. The problem I have with her recovery in this game is the fact that it's harder to warp somewhere far into the stage than it was in Melee. For example, in Melee Battlefield, she could be quite far away and warp to the top platform of Battlefield, even if she reappeared "through" it. In Brawl, she just keeps falling in a helpless state because of how hard it is to get her full body above the platform without doing something super obvious. You could do that on Dream Land 64 and Yoshi's Island, too. Plus, people don't expect you to warp into them in Melee, while in Brawl, it's standard to just shield, so it doesn't really do all that much if you're trying to pick a spot and you're hoping for the hitbox to help.
My main qualm, however, is how hard it is for me to sweetspot the edge in Brawl, but that's more my fault *coughedgescough*.
But whatever, while her recovery isn't the best, it's not the biggest reason for one to be turned off by Zelda unless you can just stay off the stage. My personal biggest/current problem is that I cannot get off the ledge and on the stage. I don't know what the hell to do. I can scrape together an approach, but I can't get on the stage safely at all, and I think this is part of the reason why I started on her recovery in the first place.
Lol I know! xD So long as we don't drop her though it's all good ;D
I wonder if her melee self was actually better? You could at least sweetspot easier and get a lot of early kills there. I don't think she's abysmal in brawl though (especially for half a character), I think she's a decent enough character and much much better with Sheik together (I think Sheik needs Zelda as much as vice versa also).
This generation of smash is all about the MKs and Snakes sadly. But I'm still fighting for a spot for Sheik/Zelda on the tier list, because they are that much different from their solo counterparts imo - they deserve one ^^
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
The thing about Melee and Zelda is that while she was still slow as all hell (compared to the rest of the cast), she couldn't really be hardcore camped in that game. Camping in general wasn't to the degree that it is in Brawl. Early kills with Zelda was not a problem, and she had a better combo potential while still not being a combo heavy character, which is a very good thing because she didn't lose out much there in the transition. However, she lost wavedashing, something that took care of her approaches for the most part.
I don't know about better because of how easy it is to get killed in that game, but it just feels like the same thing again, just a different type of game.
I don't know about better because of how easy it is to get killed in that game, but it just feels like the same thing again, just a different type of game.
Brawl's taken a horrible direction (for Zelda at least) with camping and purely 'gaying' out the opponent. Other fighters are similar, but not to the extreme extent brawl has taken it.
Still, she has a good quality in brawl and that's killing. Some characters are lucky to have 2 or 3 kill moves, whereas she has quite a few options. This is what she was designed in mind, otherwise Sheik wouldn't be so weak and fast. It's just a shame we have to stale those smashes in order to build up damage in the first place using her solo.
A lot of character boards are going through phases where they're doubting their main or dropping them altogether... In essence, there's only one character brawl cares about and that's MK.
Still, she has a good quality in brawl and that's killing. Some characters are lucky to have 2 or 3 kill moves, whereas she has quite a few options. This is what she was designed in mind, otherwise Sheik wouldn't be so weak and fast. It's just a shame we have to stale those smashes in order to build up damage in the first place using her solo.
A lot of character boards are going through phases where they're doubting their main or dropping them altogether... In essence, there's only one character brawl cares about and that's MK.
Darkmusician
Smash Master
Zelda was far worse off in Melee than she'll ever be in Brawl. It's not even close.
I have no problems playing a camping war with Zelda with certain characters. I practice against a certain Zelda every weekend. ^_^
Mix up her moves and save her smashes and you'll get kills much easier. This is something I still practice everyday.
A question I want to ask is if Zelda does continue to decline in the tier list possible moving down as much as a whole tier, would you give her up and main someone else?
I have no problems playing a camping war with Zelda with certain characters. I practice against a certain Zelda every weekend. ^_^
Mix up her moves and save her smashes and you'll get kills much easier. This is something I still practice everyday.
A question I want to ask is if Zelda does continue to decline in the tier list possible moving down as much as a whole tier, would you give her up and main someone else?
Or even worse...many people switching over to Brawl+
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
well i still main JP and poor Fox so thats my answer to Zelda.
Ochobobo
Smash Lord
Of course not, and you know it lol.
People skilled with Zelda can still perform well with her, no matter what her tier placement is. It's just an arbitrary measure of how often she's used in Tournaments. It doesn't affect her character.
Though I would like to see her represented more, lol
Palpi
Smash Hero
...The tier list is how good the character is not how often used in tournaments. Lucas is better than captain falcon, but captain falcon probably has a lot more tournament appearances. Same goes with other characters. Metagame developing of other characters better and faster than zelda would be a result in a decline of tier list.
lil cj
Smash Lord
No i would never stop using Zelda
I love Zelda too much to give her up
Ochobobo
Smash Lord
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Maybe she is. There were still things about her in Melee that did give her edges in areas where she could use that boost now (having, arguably, a different (universal) way to start approaches, a jab that didn't radiate, though the lag did leave something to be desired, etc.). I just don't remember having as much trouble warping to a spot where I could move again before getting hit (unless it was like a Fox on the edge and using Illusion). This happens to me far too much in Brawl because I can't warp on platforms without being stupidly close.
I would never drop Zelda if she continued to fall down a) because I think she can still compete very well with those above her (that some Zeldas have proven), and b) I absolutely just fell in love with her as a character lol ^^ I do a lot of scriptwriting and designing characters as part of my course at uni, and I like characters that leave a lot to be desired, ones that have a strong presence. I think Zelda fits really nicely into that archetype. So that's my reason for sticking with her! ^^
I think Ganon fits into this as well, and he would have been my second main if he wasn't so clunky to use (I just can't use him well for the life of me).
Edit:: and also, there's really no point dropping her anyways if one has mained her for a long time - a drop on the tier list still makes her the exact same character that she was before and the exact same character after. I just don't want tourney-newcomers to feel less inclined to pick her up because she's so low.
I think Ganon fits into this as well, and he would have been my second main if he wasn't so clunky to use (I just can't use him well for the life of me).
Edit:: and also, there's really no point dropping her anyways if one has mained her for a long time - a drop on the tier list still makes her the exact same character that she was before and the exact same character after. I just don't want tourney-newcomers to feel less inclined to pick her up because she's so low.
MrEh
Smash Hero
This.EdreesesPieces said:
Brawl has advanced to the point where I doubt any new AT will be discovered for Zelda. And if one is, it will probably be a gimickly useless one. Zelda doesn't need new techniques to win. She needs better players.
Lol... she NEEDS players in the first players before she starts getting better ones xD
I've been keeping track with that thread since Peach is a fun character for me to use every now and then, and it's just a shame that so many people are going through this 'if you're not MK, you're not winning'/'this character just isn't viable' type of mentality. But Edrees is most definitely right =D
I've been keeping track with that thread since Peach is a fun character for me to use every now and then, and it's just a shame that so many people are going through this 'if you're not MK, you're not winning'/'this character just isn't viable' type of mentality. But Edrees is most definitely right =D
MrEh
Smash Hero
Snakeee
Smash Master
I try to make up for the fact that I use mid tiers by using 3(4) of them. I have every character covered now, except maybe Meta...I'm finding Sheik/Zelda to actually be pretty decent against him though with the strategy I'm building up now.
GodAtHand
Smash Lord
Elaborate on that for me, I have a tournament tomorrow... possibly... (^_^)
SinkingHigher
Smash Lord
Sheik has an easy time getting through his zoning. She's much swifter than Zelda for sure. Needles are harder to punish and easier to connect with than Din for one thing. Sheik has the GRUST to KO MK at about 90%.
Zelda on the other hand has a lot of multi-hit attacks and power moves that can get rid of the floaty ******* quickly. Din can be intimidating but use it for mindgames instead of actual attacks. F-smash works really well against MK. Unfortunately his multiple jumps makes it hard to organise a spike setup. Lightning kicks are also a challenge since Zelda really can't get past his zoning as well as Sheik.
Basically with Zelda you want to stick with smash attacks and tilts. U-air works well if you can predict and bait MK's glide or if he mis-spaces a shuttle loop. Special moves don't work too well against him. Fortunately all of these options are kill moves (bar d-tilt, which is a gateway move though).
Now for sheik, I've heard MK cant get through her chain, but I can't seem to master this. Mostly because I don't see the need for it in my own playing. Needles can get MK out or whorenado. Boostgrabbing him is fairly easy and can set up an aerial.
Unfortunately, chaining any attacks is near impossible. He floats out of f-tilt and he jumps away from f-air or b-air chains. Smash attacks might be hard if MK spaces himself well. You can't play aggressively here. An opportunistic Sheik is your best option. Wait for MK to come at you, avoid the attack and come in for an f-air > ftilt or something like that and retreat. Fortunately retreating means you can charge your needles. They decay fairly quickly anyway so imo, spam the hell out of them, but don't shoot singles. Always keep them fully charged.
Anyway, once you've got him to about 100% with Sheik it's time to transform and start spamming smashes.
Note this is just a guideline. Depending on your playstyle and whatever works for you feel free to switch it up.
Ultimately, this match is all about the basics. The one thing you have a solid advantage over is projectiles. Apart from that, it's all fundamentals.
Block his attacks and sheildgrab.
Space yourself just outside the edge of his sword zone.
Counter his laggy (hah) attacks -- coming in diagonally from above helps. Timing is key.
Try to follow up attacks but if you doubt you can connect the next hit, it's not worth the risk.
Zelda on the other hand has a lot of multi-hit attacks and power moves that can get rid of the floaty ******* quickly. Din can be intimidating but use it for mindgames instead of actual attacks. F-smash works really well against MK. Unfortunately his multiple jumps makes it hard to organise a spike setup. Lightning kicks are also a challenge since Zelda really can't get past his zoning as well as Sheik.
Basically with Zelda you want to stick with smash attacks and tilts. U-air works well if you can predict and bait MK's glide or if he mis-spaces a shuttle loop. Special moves don't work too well against him. Fortunately all of these options are kill moves (bar d-tilt, which is a gateway move though).
Now for sheik, I've heard MK cant get through her chain, but I can't seem to master this. Mostly because I don't see the need for it in my own playing. Needles can get MK out or whorenado. Boostgrabbing him is fairly easy and can set up an aerial.
Unfortunately, chaining any attacks is near impossible. He floats out of f-tilt and he jumps away from f-air or b-air chains. Smash attacks might be hard if MK spaces himself well. You can't play aggressively here. An opportunistic Sheik is your best option. Wait for MK to come at you, avoid the attack and come in for an f-air > ftilt or something like that and retreat. Fortunately retreating means you can charge your needles. They decay fairly quickly anyway so imo, spam the hell out of them, but don't shoot singles. Always keep them fully charged.
Anyway, once you've got him to about 100% with Sheik it's time to transform and start spamming smashes.
Note this is just a guideline. Depending on your playstyle and whatever works for you feel free to switch it up.
Ultimately, this match is all about the basics. The one thing you have a solid advantage over is projectiles. Apart from that, it's all fundamentals.
Block his attacks and sheildgrab.
Space yourself just outside the edge of his sword zone.
Counter his laggy (hah) attacks -- coming in diagonally from above helps. Timing is key.
Try to follow up attacks but if you doubt you can connect the next hit, it's not worth the risk.
gm jack
Smash Lord
Seems fairly solid, as you cover what both on their own lack against MK. Shiek really struggles to kill bar the GRUST, and Zelda struggles to rack up damage without decaying all the kill moves. I suppose when you transform to Zelda you just have to play as cautiously as possible, and Dtilt => Dsmash, Fsmash or a side or up aerial as soon as they leave themselves open.
The Sheik/Zelda matchups against MK have been discussed so many times it's really not even worth it anymore. The only way I could ever see Sheik competing against MK at the highest possible level of play would be to master the chain......Zelda I doubt will ever fare well against MK.
Also I am very sad that I wasn't around to debate with Ryko more on Ike being better than Zelda.....anyone care to fill me in on how that debate went?
Also I am very sad that I wasn't around to debate with Ryko more on Ike being better than Zelda.....anyone care to fill me in on how that debate went?
Rykoshet
Smash Champion
It fell off because someone whined about it being off topic.