What do you think Zelda's placement will be on the June tier list?

[-Mars-]

It fell off because someone whined about it being off topic.

As if we didn't have enough useless tier list threads with nothing of value in any of them........

 

[Rykoshet]

*shrug* All the same really.

 

[Snakeee]

I'm considering just using Sheik's DACUS early to build damage, then go Zelda to d-tilt lock him. I don't remember the exact percentages, but NL told me something like it locks him from 50%-85% o_O. Correct me on this please.

I'm not sure if this is worth it though, and if anything I may just use solo Sheik because she gets the kill easily enough if you instead decide to save the up smash. It seems like it isn't as much of an uphill battle as it can be for ZSS at the highest of levels, so I'm going to experiment some more.

And to the guy that said not to use single needles, that's not true at all. You need to use them a lot in general in this match up, and you don't always have time to charge them. A single needle will break anything. It's very useful to use them in the air to break the tornado for one thing. You should try to camp with them while you can before he gets close. I also don't get gimped very often at all anymore because I use the needles strategically in my recovery.

 

[KayLo!]

I'm considering just using Sheik's DACUS early to build damage, then go Zelda to d-tilt lock him. I don't remember the exact percentages, but NL told me something like it locks him from 50%-85% o_O. Correct me on this please.

Something like that. I haven't gotten to MK's hitstun from dtilt yet, but based on other characters' info and what NL's told me as well, ~50% sounds accurate.

I doubt it goes all the way to 85% (unless they give up on DI'ing altogether), but you can probably get a good 20% on him before he can break out, if not a bit more.

The problem would be executing this fluidly.... even if you managed to pull it off without taking too much damage the first time, it'd be REALLY hard to catch a good MK with the same strategy more than once. Zelda would probably take a lot of damage before he put himself in a position to get locked again.

Using Zelda to kill MK seems like a good idea in general, though, vs. going all Sheik. I don't use Sheik, mind you, but from going purely Zelda against MK (only in friendlies..... the matchup is dumb hard), he dies sooooo early, especially from uair.

 

[Kataefi]

That's why you always dtilt > dsmash every time the moment he gets to 50% as opposed to the lock.

You get off roughly 20% anyways with this combination - the dtilt stales, the dsmash damages the enemy as compensation to make the next dtilt you do have enough stun to combo into dsmash again.

It's whether you want to use the lock to do quick and easy damage... or whether or not you want to do dtilt > dsmash for bigger damage but you'll need to land a dtilt more often.

Iirc it's 46% exactly for MK when he cannot shield from the next dtilt.

 

[Villi]

If you're using a fresh dtilt at any percent after you can get a dtilt lock (define: 9 dtilts in a row without the chance of a perfect shield), you can always either combo into another dtilt after the first one thereafter unless you launch them.

 

[Kataefi]

You can't... dtilt will stale too much, which is why after doing the lock and they SDI out, trying the lock again will be ineffective as they can powershield on reaction.

Instead of doing dtilt > dtilt > dtilt > dsmash once per stock for a grand total of whatever percent, you can instead do dtilt > dsmash over and over, because you're building damage whilst decaying it only once, whereas the former you're building just a slightly bit more damage yet decaying it three times, reducing stun.

It's whether you want a quick build damage (the former method), or something more damaging but you need to invest more time landing dtilts (the latter method).

 

[Villi]

You can't... dtilt will stale too much, which is why after doing the lock and they SDI out, trying the lock again will be ineffective as they can powershield on reaction.

Think about it this way: at ~50%, if all a Marth does is hold his shield down when you dtilt him, you can dtilt him until he reaches a percent where a fully decayed dtilt will launch him (probably around 200%). This implies that dtilt itself causes enough damage to keep up with its own decay at 50% on Marth, even with damage scaling. ***


If you use another move at any point between dtilts, that's perfectly fine because dtilt will be refreshed by that. The only reason I see for not dtilt locking someone to the full extent your opponent's ability allows is that it simultaneously makes your dtilt stale while putting your opponent at a percentage when a fresh dtilt could launch them into an uptilt or upsmash.

You can SEE him doing SDI and react to it. If he starts getting too far away from you to lock for much longer, react with dsmash before he's out of range. If he trips, you can react to it with a mix up of your own creation. No need to give up control so easily when you acquire it by dsmashing too early.

If he DIs out of a dtilt lock /or rolls out of his tripping animation/ and you follow him with more dtilts, nothing has changed except both of you moved to a different **** scene. It doesn't matter if dtilt hasn't refreshed; it's caused enough damage that another dtilt can still combo into itself.

A dsmash at those percentages though sets up for spikes or edge guards anyway, especially if they're in BAD DI from SDIing your dtilts correctly. They're really kind of ****ed in the dtilt situation if you understand their options are extremely limited. They try to SDI out of dtilt when they could be dsmashed at any time while they input back, or down-back. If they don't do that which you will plainly see, you can dtilt them until they will die from dsmash anyway.

*** If I'm wrong about 50% because I forgot the exact number, it only means his dtilt lock percentage might be 51. Here is the way I tested this. I went to versus mode and picked a percentage to start dtilting. I held my opponent's shield button down while I dtilted. Then I counted to 10. If they could shield at any time between those 10 dtilts, I would know I couldn't truly lock them. I adjusted by killing Zelda then increasing the opponent's percentage by a small amount until I could do 10 dtilts in a row without them being able to shield.

 

[Kataefi]

The lock is only for a small percentage window from what I've been testing... for example, (and yeah I'm using random numbers here to show my case), Marth's lock would probably range from 50% to 70%, in which if you use consecutive dtilts post 70% from 50% it will be decayed enough for him to start powershielding the next ones and avoiding the lock.

If you dtilt > dsmash, that should work every single time from 50%, until it starts popping them up. So in the long run it's more damaging but you need to be landing even more intial dtilts in the first place. If you also decay it 3 or 4 times, there will be a good setup for utilt in which dtilt should pop them up around 100% but doesn't, in which case they will get the maximum +10 frame stun disadvantage for utilt to combo truly.

I tested the exact same way as you actually. I made a controller setup where all the buttons were shields and one was attack so I would shield easily whilst Zelda would dtilt. I used fox on the side to build up damage to test fresh and decayed dtilts. The lock works but it 'runs out' due to decay. If you're opponent is also silly enough to waste their shield, the lock also works because it pokes beneath the shield where they cannot defend against, so they don't have a frame 1 options are either forced to attack (which adds frame advantages to zelda), or they have to SDI out.

I should test this some more if we're getting different things.

 

[Dark.Pch]

If More Zelda players were to start placing well in tournaments, then she would move up. Until then, she won't If people dont see her doing anything in tournaments, it will not give them a reason to boost her up. From what I know, there arent any Zeldas hitting high placings in tournaments in the USA

 

[Kain6th]

My best friend is really good with her. A lot of her moves seem to have good priority. I definitely think she should be a little higher on the list than she is.

Maybe if I get my friend to go to some touney's we may see her rise. I live in the L.A. area, so ill be going to the UCLA tourney in May and I'll bring him with me. He just wants to do doubles, but maybe if I get him to practice more I can convince him to do singles too.

 

[Metatitan]

from what ive seen there are only two zelda users consistently placing atm: DM and NL. unless more pple enter tournies (or im missing a bunch of zelda goers at tournies) then she won't move up

 

[Dark.Pch]

What? NL does not use Zelda alot in tournaments to a point to boost her ranks.

 

[MrEh]

NL doesn't even use Zelda in tournies, but he does use her well.

DM is the only Zelda that actually places in tournaments, and that's in Hawaii no less.


She's going down unless people step it up.

 

[KayLo!]

Think about it this way: at ~50%, if all a Marth does is hold his shield down when you dtilt him, you can dtilt him until he reaches a percent where a fully decayed dtilt will launch him (probably around 200%).

It would be way before 200%. Even fully staled, most characters pop up around the low-mid 100's, and Marth is light, so for him it would be closer to the low end of those percentages.

Btw, I'm doing the frame data for this, so I'm not just pulling these numbers out of my booty.

The lock is only for a small percentage window from what I've been testing... for example, (and yeah I'm using random numbers here to show my case), Marth's lock would probably range from 50% to 70%, in which if you use consecutive dtilts post 70% from 50% it will be decayed enough for him to start powershielding the next ones and avoiding the lock.

Kataefi's right. Because the hitstun of dtilt changes so radically depending on how much it's staled, the lock only works for a small percentage window no matter how fresh or stale it is when you start it.

I don't have specific numbers yet, but I'm estimating that most locks are around 20%-30%. You definitely wouldn't be able to get Marth from 50%-200% by any means.

If More Zelda players were to start placing well in tournaments, then she would move up. Until then, she won't If people dont see her doing anything in tournaments, it will not give them a reason to boost her up. From what I know, there arent any Zeldas hitting high placings in tournaments in the USA

unless more pple enter tournies (or im missing a bunch of zelda goers at tournies) then she won't move up

Truth.

I really like Zelda, so I'm trying to use her more in tournies, but biweeklies don't really count for much. Apex will be the first large-ish tournament in which I'll have a chance to use her, but it's just so hard.... because she really can't compete well with some of the top characters (AHEMMKAHEM), and when I have a main that does so much better...... x.x

 

[MrEh]

Here's the main thing.

We can talk about how Zelda has tons of untapped potential and that her metagame has greatly improved with a lot of recent discoveries. However, that doesn't mean anything to the SBR unless Zeldas actually start placing. Theorycraft is one thing, but proving that all of the theory actually works is another thing entirely.

I do think that Zelda has the potential to rise, but the rise would require good tournament placings. And even then, the rise probably wouldn't be more then a few places anyway.


If Zelda drops into low tier, you guys should be happy about it. Then you can use Zelda in low tier tournies! lol

and when I have a main that does so much better...... x.x

There's no reason to use Zelda when you can use the rat.

 

[KayLo!]

There's no reason to use Zelda when you can use the rat.

Very true. The only one of my secondaries who's really necessary is Snake (to cover Martha), but like I said.... I love playing Zelda. She's fun. And she does come in handy in two cases:

Pika dittos. At CoT4, I ended up going against another Pika main in pools, and I lost our first match when we did a ditto..... so I went Zelda and won the second match. (Lost the third.... because of ignorance about hitstun and B moves.... I know better now. ) In this case, Zelda > Snake -- my other real secondary.... Yoshi is more for low tiers -- because the matchup is better for me and people generally have less Zelda experience than Snake experience.

Switching up my playstyle. Especially now that Pika's getting more popular nowadays, Zelda has even more of a surprise factor than the rat has (or used to have ).... and they play so differently that people have no idea what to do against Zelda at first.

Good players figure it out pretty quickly, but it usually wins me at least a match or two.

I think the "There's no reason to use Zelda when you can use ______" argument applies for a lot of people. But imo no character is completely useless despite your main (unless it's MK)..... I don't need Zelda, but I've still found ways to use her effectively simply because I like using her.

 

[MrEh]

But imo no character is completely useless despite your main (unless it's MK)..... I don't need Zelda, but I've still found ways to use her effectively simply because I like using her.

Use Zelda to beat Bowser. lol

 

[KayLo!]

But thundering Bowser is so much fun.....

If only I could combine thunder and LK on one character.....

 

[Kataefi]

I think Zelda's character in general is quite unappealing to a lot, she only appeals to a niche audience - she's quite feminine in terms of her magical fairy attacks and whatnot. I know that sounds silly, but it's a factor to consider in a game where big guns, swords, hammers, wings and other gadgets and gizmos are quite popular.

She's never really had her own game where she was the main protagonist. She's generally silent (you can't really place a personality on her), she hardly says a word and so she leaves a lot to be desired, and she probably has the stigma from melee where there she really was an awful character.

These sorts of factors can go into choosing a character you like and who you main. Add to that she's light, slow and isn't very agile and so a lot of people dismiss her.

 

[KayLo!]

.... she's quite feminine ....

.... Add to that she's light, slow and isn't very agile ....

I think those are the main reasons people don't want to consider playing her -- and honestly, those things do hinder her. They don't hold her back as much as people who don't play her might assume, but she really is just too slow to keep up with some characters. (I'm referring to her ground speed and the startup/cooldown on her attacks.... I know her aerial speed isn't bad.)

That and, imo, her aerial game leaves something to be desired. On the ground, she's sort of a fortress.... played defensively, she does pretty well.... but in the air, her options seem really limited, especially since they gave her two very similar attacks for some reason. x.x

I really wish her fair was something different.

But anyway. As far as her air game, she gets juggled really easily, lacks a really good combo breaker, and all of the sweetspot/sourspot shenanigans on her aerials are unfortunate.

I guess that's what Sheik is for, since they were likely designed to work as a pair.

 

[Kataefi]

Yep very true! I think the sweetspot mechanism is a double-edged sword.

I actually find nayru's to be a decent combo breaker on occasion. But she doesn't have that super quick attack, like peach's and luigi's nairs to break out of things very quickly. She's forced to rely on good DI in order to escape devestating aerial 'combos'.

 

[Ochobobo]

she's quite feminine in terms of her magical fairy attacks and whatnot.

At least she doesn't actually pull out a fairy in a taunt. That's probably why Link is at the bottom of the bottom tier, lolol.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

and she probably has the stigma from melee where there she really was an awful character.

You take that back right now, she´s awesome in melee! LKs are so easy to connect!

jk of course, she´s quite horrible but still very fun to use in melee. Of course that might just be me, since I´ve never mained a character higher than middle tier

 

[Dark.Pch]

I think I should start playing Zelda again.

 

[Kataefi]

I liked your spacing as Zelda dark when you had those videos. You had this really solid style iirc ^^ Would be good to see more videos from you. I know you're passionate about Peach though, maybe have Zelda on the side and bring her out as a wild card or something similar?

 

[Dark.Pch]

That would never happen cause I am not the one to counterpick.

But I am failing with Peach anyway and suck. so I have lil to no need Keep pushing it. My Zelda I really don't think it was all that. But I like to give it a shot to help with her placings. So I would do it like this.

First match: Peach

If I lose the first match: Use Peach round 2 and three if I win round 2.

If I win the first match: Zelda Round 2. If I lose round 2 with her, round three I have to choice but to finish it off as Peach.

Ether way they would both get the same amount of rep and tournament status. Also they be working as a team. I'm not doing this to counterpick, for any character I face round 2 if I was to win round one, I bring out Zelda. Also as a team, they balance each other out.

Peach Can rack up damage and Edgeguard people pretty well. And But a hell alot of shield pressure. Good to froce people out of shields or eat it for a possible shield break or shield stab. And has many good ways to approach. And don't get me started on her godly spacing.

Zelda Pretty much takes care of what Peach has trouble with. Which is killing well. Zelda has alot of good kill moves. We have options with this character. She also has a spike that is not all that hard to land if done right. Not something to rely on but it does help. And I did not think her spacing was all that. Done right her spacing is kinda godly to me. Really with a option of attacks that kill well. Zelda may not have good aproaches. But she can make up for it by making it hard to get inside. I sometimes have trouble or am afriad to go inside Zelda.

So I think this could work out of rht ebest. If I can help with her rankings, then cool, If I can't........I tried..

 

[<π]

personally i think sheiks isn't any better than hers. edgehog covers both shieks recoveries and her vanish doesn't go as far....nor does it have a reappear attack...

Better double jump.
multiple recovery options in chain and Vanish.
0 start up time on Chain.
two sweet spot points for vanish.
comparable distance for vanish. (I think vertically they give the same distance)
The initial explosion for vanish forces characters to clear the ledge.
Lagless landing of vanish.
Way less recovery time (land lag) on Vanish.

Sheik's recovery over all is way better I've never met a situation where I wished I was zelda instead of shiek off stage... or... ever. In fact its is more commonly the opposite.

since the day came out I was very shocked by zelda's position. She is far from a good charcter. long syanding disjointed hit boxes and all are nice but she just lacks the speed and overall recovery time to give her any truely viable defensive or pressure tactics. A horrible reflector, useless projectile, and low movement speed make her crazy easy to out camp. and her poor air game makes getting inside to actually use her Dtilt stuff incredibly hard against people who actually know what the word spacing means and how it applies to video games...

Zelda sucks she should be way lower than she is right now... way lower.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Better double jump.
multiple recovery options in chain and Vanish.
0 start up time on Chain.
two sweet spot points for vanish.
comparable distance for vanish. (I think vertically they give the same distance)
The initial explosion for vanish forces characters to clear the ledge.
Lagless landing of vanish.
Way less recovery time (land lag) on Vanish.

Sheik's recovery over all is way better I've never met a situation where I wished I was zelda instead of shiek off stage... or... ever. In fact its is more commonly the opposite.

since the day came out I was very shocked by zelda's position. She is far from a good charcter. long syanding disjointed hit boxes and all are nice but she just lacks the speed and overall recovery time to give her any truely viable defensive or pressure tactics. A horrible reflector, useless projectile, and low movement speed make her crazy easy to out camp. and her poor air game makes getting inside to actually use her Dtilt stuff incredibly hard against people who actually know what the word spacing means and how it applies to video games...

Zelda sucks she should be way lower than she is right now... way lower.

This is one of the most bias post I ever seen for a character. And they let people like you in the SBR? No wonder half the stuff that comes out of there is BS.

 

[<π]

I'm not in the sbr.

I've had no success with zelda in competitive environments so I guess thats whats made me sour to her. Please DarkPch correct me where I'm wrong.

 

[SinkingHigher]

<3 what were you tihnking?

Lagless enging of Vanish? Vanish takes about the same amount of time.
You can still get gimped when trying to tether, and if you do that, you won't be recovering with vanish.
The first part of Vanish doesn't really help you, since it's the last part that will get you to the ledge.
Sheik is VERY easily gimped when she gets knocked below the stage at mid-high percentages. Honestly, if you get knocked past a certain point (where Vanish takes you as far as the ledge), a point which Zelda can still recover from, all hope is lost. You might as well DI towards the edge. Both her recoveries stop working at the same distance. Not useful.

It seems you've never played a good Zelda. Imo one of the best reflectors in the game. Do you know any other reflectors that can, amongst other things, set up 0% KOs?

She is not by any means slow, imo. Compared to Sheik, yeah, her running speed is slower and her frame rates tend to take longer (though some are faster), but she's not Sheik. If you're trying to play Zelda that way you will fail. They're two different characters. Zelda baits all her attacks and predicts approaches, Sheik waits for an opening and strikes.

Her projectile, once again, both is a KO move and EASILY baits KOs. I have no idea what you're basing this on.

I cannot comment on the camping thing since I've never been camped.

Poor air game? lols. I'm starting to think that whole post was just you being sarcastic. From above, she has a hard time but if you "actually know what the word spacing means" you can get around this before any damage is done.

D-tilt is not as hard as you make it out to be. Punish rolls and spotdodges or airdodges with it that you've baited. Most characters have some laggy moves or lower-priority moves that get them in the lock.

Note: I'm not being hypocritical and saying Sheik is the lowest of the low, but you're saying that Zelda is practically trash and Sheik, in comparison, is Godly. False.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Oh yea. Thats not a brawl backroom icon. I dont think they have one for it.

Now let me break it down to you about Zelda.

Zelda can space very well. I do this alot. Like spaced Fairs to Ftilts if they wanna jump to me or Dtilts. And that Jab is a sick one for it. its quick and has good knock back. So of I was to hit your shield, It be hard to punish me out of it. For if you tried:

- You be pushed too far back to punish oput of shield
- You try ^ and you will eat another Jab or Dsmash.

And it has decent range for she tuns her body a lil to the side.

Sheik recover is not better than Zelda:

- Has more Vertical range
- Her more Horozontal range
- The start and the end of her Up-B do damage.
- Does not get gimped that as easy as shiek.

Also, Zelda has a defensive came. Her approaches are not that great. But makes up for it in her defense. He can be hard to get inside cause of this. I'm even afraid to apporach her and I am Peach, character with so many good aprroaches.Spaced and times Jabs/tilts and even smash attacks, Zelda can be hard to get a hit off when going to her.

Zelda does not have much of an air game, but can kill peoples air gamees on the ground. So lets get at that. Si imagine if her air game was on point. be too much of a Goddess.

Horrible relfecter? Only thing i seen horrible about it is reflecting turnips. Does not send them back far. be let me tell you something about it:

- It is quick (faster than melee one)
- Can be used well out of shield.
- they are behind you and get caught, It send them right in front of you and can lead too good options.

Useless projectile? Zelda has a projectile not that can kill of stage and well. Also it has a large hit box. I dont need to hit you with it directly to hit you or even kill you. I can mindgame people with this. Do a F-B have way and set it off, thus catch them in thier side steps or air dodge. Or set if off behine them to catch them.

Zelda has good running speed. She has on boots so it step her speed up.

what game have you been playing sir, melee?

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Zelda has good running speed. he has on boots so it step her speed up.

I think this should be added to Zelda guide immediately.


@ <3: Sure, Zelda isn´t high tier material (IMO), but she´s nowhere near as bad as you made her sound. I don´t think there´s a reason for me to really explain that anymore, since Dark.Pch and SinkingHigher both already posted good explanations of her good points.

 

[<π]

@SinkingHigher
A moveset that needs to be played bassed on prediction is a bad one IMO. dins won't kill 1v1.

That said I play every character spare a few at a high level of play. Bowser was my secondary for a time before I realized how much **** meta's UpB is agianst him. Unlike zelda bowser doesn't get punished for his predictions because of his rediculous range and lower cool downs. when people get past his green zone they have a fortress to get through next.
So believe me when I say I understand how to play diifferent characters. The only match ups where I've been sucessful have been against character with poor lateral speed and/or poor range. Ice climbers, gannondorf and bowser, jiggs, and most of the few I can think of that fall into the catagory. other characters punish me big on when I predict wrong. zelda doesn't have any moves that are safe to use against characters with high movement speeds (meta, shiek) or good range (Dk, Zsam, Link).

as far as an aerial game zelda boasts very small hit boxes every where except uair and are all pretty slow spare nair. And while nair is awesome, don't get me wrong, it's hit box won't hold up well against any of the higher teired characters if they are spacing well.

Love, move favorite move in melee (next to bombs) has been nerfed to hell for no reason (crazy huh?) you become un invincible on the same frame your stupid shield hits meaning you will more often than not trade hits instead of beat or dodge them. the disadvantage on shield is rediculous. another prediction move that if you fail you get punished big by everyone.

:/ That said if you are baiting people to roll next with zelda chances are they aren't very good. The only people I've seen do very well with zelda clearly out skill their opponents by a long shot or there opponents have no idea what is going on for the match up.

What can you think of that zelda can do that would make you want to roll next to her? the only ones I can think of are ones that result in her getting punished: Dins.
And while I'll agree she can easily bait air dodges it's always safer to go for an edge or plat. most higher teired characters have a way to sort of clear a landing or avoid a conflict all together. like meta's gulide or snake with his C4. Even low teir characters will counter bait with stalls(fox,kirbs, jiggs) floats(peach), teleports and other movement options(zelda, falolcon) projectiles ect.
As link for example I'll rather throw a bomb at a shield and hit myself than be forced into a grab or big punishment situation.

Sheik isn't a god, but her recovery is so much better than zeldas. the only characters I die to when recovering are meta and people with crazy strong aerials when I'm at high percents. Zelda's recover is very one dimentional and See through. with sheik you have to grab the edge early to anticipate the chain then she can force you off with vanish. and recover relatively safely. her edge options are way better than zelda's too IMO simply because of sheiks speed and hard to read get ons.

 

[<π]

@DarkPch
personally I think melee zelda is better than brawl I could spam fair and bair safely the sweet spot was huge. Love was awesome, comparable to melee bowser's fortress IMO.

jab comes out at like 10 frames now? melee zelda's jab was so good.

Din's got buffed but give a good player who's never experienced it a match and they'll be reading right through it just like everyone else out there. I only dins kills I get are squall hammer recoveries. Everyone else nairs through it or dodges it as the slowly float down from my perfect 45 degree angle kill moves.

 

[Dark.Pch]

A moveset that needs to be played bassed on prediction is a bad one IMO. dins won't kill 1v1.

Are you serious? Yes it does and yest it will. Off stage for edgeguards

That said I play every character spare a few at a high level of play. Bowser was my secondary for a time before I realized how much **** meta's UpB is agianst him. Unlike zelda bowser doesn't get punished for his predictions because of his rediculous range and lower cool downs. when people get past his green zone they have a fortress to get through next.

You are just bad with Zelda.

Bowser has a one frame up-B out his shield with invincibility. Only thing he has going to him. Besides that, Bowser can be punished just like everyone else. His air moves lag expect when you full hop a Fair. And he is SLOW.

So believe me when I say I understand how to play diifferent characters. The only match ups where I've been sucessful have been against character with poor lateral speed and/or poor range. Ice climbers, gannondorf and bowser, jiggs, and most of the few I can think of that fall into the catagory. other characters punish me big on when I predict wrong. zelda doesn't have any moves that are safe to use against characters with high movement speeds (meta, shiek) or good range (Dk, Zsam, Link).

No you dont understand how to play different character if you speak like this and your previous post.

Meta is slow in the air unless he is gliding. And Zelda can shut that down with her upsmash. And Zelda does have good Range with her Fsmash, Ftilt, and even Dtilt. And it's not only about predicting, its about knowing what the heck you are doing, cause if you wanna throw that out there, I can predict my player as well and just end it.

as far as an aerial game zelda boasts very small hit boxes every where except uair and are all pretty slow spare nair. And while nair is awesome, don't get me wrong, it's hit box won't hold up well against any of the higher teired characters if they are spacing well.

Dude, her Nair, all I have to do is tip you with her FINGERS, and you are inside the move and taking damage, thats how serious it is. Soace the move and it is done. Tha moves gets at DDD. And her air hitboxes are not very small, the hell?

Love, move favorite move in melee (next to bombs) has been nerfed to hell for no reason (crazy huh?) you become un invincible on the same frame your stupid shield hits meaning you will more often than not trade hits instead of beat or dodge them. the disadvantage on shield is rediculous. another prediction move that if you fail you get punished big by everyone.

..................................................

Some one who mains Zelda take care of this one. I can't deal with this after he went on to say bombs been nerfed.....and then compareing it to NL

:/ That said if you are baiting people to roll next with zelda chances are they aren't very good. The only people I've seen do very well with zelda clearly out skill their opponents by a long shot or there opponents have no idea what is going on for the match up.

Smart/Top players/M2K gets bait, so I guess they suck too.

What can you think of that zelda can do that would make you want to roll next to her? the only ones I can think of are ones that result in her getting punished: Dins.
And while I'll agree she can easily bait air dodges it's always safer to go for an edge or plat. most higher teired characters have a way to sort of clear a landing or avoid a conflict all together. like meta's gulide or snake with his C4. Even low teir characters will counter bait with stalls(fox,kirbs, jiggs) floats(peach), teleports and other movement options(zelda, falolcon) projectiles ect.
As link for example I'll rather throw a bomb at a shield and hit myself than be forced into a grab or big punishment situation.

What can Zelda do to make you roll?

- Just walk to then and then done move. They will **** thier pants and think you will attack and w/e, and they will roll or side step.

- Pin them to a corner and keep that distance for pressure.

Also, You can't punish Dins fire if I am not near you, or if you are not about to shoot at me with something when I am about to do it. Thats what stupid people do.

Sheik isn't a god, but her recovery is so much better than zeldas. the only characters I die to when recovering are meta and people with crazy strong aerials when I'm at high percents. Zelda's recover is very one dimentional and See through. with sheik you have to grab the edge early to anticipate the chain then she can force you off with vanish. and recover relatively safely. her edge options are way better than zelda's too IMO simply because of sheiks speed and hard to read get ons.

Her recovery is not better.

With Zelda I dont have to grab the edge early to get on. My attack explods on impact of her teleportation. Yours does not, making it easier to just edgehog you. Or blast of off the edge to your death.

And egde options are better?

- Fair, if spaced on your shield over even hits it, hard to punish
- Nair on stage and back off to grab the edge
- N-B
-Uair. For it goes through the stage and has a big hitbox.

Shiek is not hard to read man of the edge, this most common and safe thing she can do if Fair in stage. We have options getting back on, you have lil. Oh, and Zelda Can gimp shiek easy.

The way you talking, sounds like you playing melee Zelda here. You wanna know what you are doing. You are basing this off YOUR Zelda. and since it is bad, you refer your bad experince to Zelda in general. So you can't come in here saying all of this as if you are right and know it all about Zelda. Cause you seriously dont, at all

 

[KayLo!]

dins won't kill 1v1.

Lol. You're doin' it wrong.

Even if it doesn't kill outright, like others have said, it sets up kills like a mofo. They either get hit with Din's or airdodge/nair/whatever and usually get hit afterwards.

I've had no success with zelda in competitive environments so I guess thats whats made me sour to her.

*cough*

Just saying. Zelda's not high tier or anything, and she has her definite weak spots that can be hard to work around vs. certain characters, but she's not trash.

As for comparing Zelda and Sheik, they play very differently and pretty much succeed individually where the other fails, so comparing them like this ("mine is better!" "no, mine is better!") is silly. It'd be much smarter to use them both and focus on how they complement one another in competitive play.

(No, I don't use Sheik with Zelda, but I fully accept that doing so would be the wise thing to do.)

 

[Brinzy]

Love, move favorite move in melee (next to bombs) has been nerfed to hell for no reason (crazy huh?) you become un invincible on the same frame your stupid shield hits meaning you will more often than not trade hits instead of beat or dodge them. the disadvantage on shield is rediculous. another prediction move that if you fail you get punished big by everyone.

Nayru's Love has NEVER had invincibility on top of the attack. Amongst other things, what the hell are you talking about?

@DarkPch
personally I think melee zelda is better than brawl I could spam fair and bair safely the sweet spot was huge. Love was awesome, comparable to melee bowser's fortress IMO.

jab comes out at like 10 frames now? melee zelda's jab was so good.

Din's got buffed but give a good player who's never experienced it a match and they'll be reading right through it just like everyone else out there. I only dins kills I get are squall hammer recoveries. Everyone else nairs through it or dodges it as the slowly float down from my perfect 45 degree angle kill moves.

I actually share similar feelings about Melee Zelda being better off than Brawl Zelda, but...

Jab comes out on the same frame, if I'm not mistaken. Melee Jab was good because it didn't "radiate" and it also hit mostly everyone, but Brawl Jab's radiation adds on to her lingering hitboxes and the cooldown is incredible.

Din's is part of the reason why she can force approaches from Rob and DDD. It imps Ness and Lucas fairly reliably (unless they are not forced to PKT), adds on damage to opponents that want to absorb a hit for a better chance to recover (so don't use it if you think you can get the kill), and is pretty much safe when opponents are far away.




I'm not even gonna finish replying to whatever else you're saying because you're basing this off of personal experience and you're just flat out WRONG about stuff (45 degree aerials? lol try 90).

 

[<π]

@DarkPch
Bowsers UPB doesn't come out on frame one.
Bowsers short hopped fair is lagless.
The areial klaw is always lagless.
bowsers ftilt comes out of frame ten... just like zelda's jab, awesome.

@ SoR
fsmash, ftilt, nair, bair, fair, her kill throws are the only moves, spare dsmash that hit off stage really they all send you opponent at a nice 45 degree angle. where it becomes purty easy to avoid dins kills.

@Everyone
but yeah what ever... It's like you guys aren't listening to what I'm saying. Zelda is bad, or at the very least "not good"; why would you say that is? You guys are making it out like she has no flaws. Be realistic.
"You have to guess what they are going to do."?

 

[Snakeee]

Din's is actually pretty useless 1 vs 1 if your opponent is competent.
Like I said in that other thread though, I think Zelda can actually go up now after I'm realizing newthings while playing as her.