What do you think Zelda's placement will be on the June tier list?

[lil cj]

I got this idea from the Marth boards
Do you think Zelda is going to stay where she is, move up, or go down on the new tier list coming out in June?
I think she will go up 2-3 spots
or at least be in D tier passing Wolf but still below Peach
Players like Dark Musician are really making Zelda shine at tournies
Zelda doesnt deserve to be in E tier...she's too good(and even better with Sheik)
She just needs more representation at tournies...she does very well in doubles if that counts and she isnt too bad in singles
Lets keep making Zelda look good in tournies Zelda mains
And she will get the spot she deserves on the next tier list

 

[lil cj]

*Crickets chirping*
lol

 

[-Mars-]

Zelda will move down a couple spots and she is not better than Wolf lol.

 

[Kataefi]

She will move down. Sheik will eventully overtake her, so will Bowser. I don't think Ike will though. She was doomed from the start.

I still think she's a lot better than people give her credit for though, but that's probably character bias. The fact they sticked that fairy fountain thread (lolname) means they're paying attention, and some broomers did say they see potential in her to grow... we'll see anyways ^^

 

[-Mars-]

Zelda is so much better than Ike.....I still think Zelda is better than Fox as well. But yes, Bowser and Sheik will jump her and if the Back Room ever has enough brains to rank Pokemon Trainer on an individual basis....then I think Charizard is a better character as well.

 

[Nitrix]

Zelda will be moving down, imo. She just isn't that deep at all, and it seems like other characters are still developing while Zelda is becoming stagnant.

and if the Back Room ever has enough brains to rank Pokemon Trainer on an individual basis....then I think Charizard is a better character as well.

The SBR isn't that stupid.

 

[-Mars-]

The SBR isn't that stupid.

Go suck their sack then.

 

[Kataefi]

Lol have you been reading the stickies?... she has some degree of depth (not as much as the faster characters). Depends on how you want to use her... she'll be lacking in it if you're nice and predictable with smashes here and there, but read the stickies and then tell me she's a one-dimensional character. I've been recently experimenting different styles with her with mixed results, but she's definitely really good at conditioning opponents into believing she'll do something...

They won't rank PT individually because of fatigue, simple as. But they should put Sheik and Zelda together. I reckon they could contend with the likes of kirby and others if put together.

She might move up if we flesh out some of the ideas we've been thinking of though, as broomers like 'potential'. Kaylo's getting us frame data, hopefully on some of her hitstun inducing moves. We'll see how that turns out. I still love playing as her though, and it doesn't bother as much anymore because I know she can contend with those higher than her on that list easily.

 

[MrEh]

and if the Back Room ever has enough brains to rank Pokemon Trainer on an individual basis....then I think Rock Smash is a better character as well.

fix'd

She's definately going down.

I think to the bottom of E tier.

 

[lil cj]

Why is everyone saying she will move down
She isnt that bad at all...just misunderstood
Well at least she's better than she was in Melee
Sheik surpass Zelda???
Hows that so?
In Brawl they switched places Sheik needs Zelda(to KO)
just like Zelda needed Sheik in Melee
Sheik is good, just not as good as Zelda
It doesnt matter though b/c they are deadly when they work together

 

[goodkid]

No she will move up no doubt, but it will take some time. She is just a simple character at a first glance, but hopefully we'll find something that will soon help her compete at a higher level. She really is just underepped. Maybe we should really consider using Sheik/Zelda together, they really work together better than just Zelda...maybe its just me who hasn't made the transition >_<

 

[Brinzy]

It's more like other characters will move up past her moreso than she'll move down, even though they're physically the same thing.

We need more tournament representation for her. (**** college.)

 

[MrEh]

Why is everyone saying she will move down
She isnt that bad at all...just misunderstood

Ask yourself the question:

"How many good Zeldas are actually going out and placing in tournaments?"


We could always say that "our character has lots of potential," but talk is cheap unless that character actually begins placing.

 

[Kataefi]

Ask yourself the question:

"How many good Zeldas are actually going out and placing in tournaments?"


We could always say that "our character has lots of potential," but talk is cheap unless that character actually begins placing.

This is quite possibly the best thing I've heard about Zelda... the only thing she needs is that representation.

 

[SinkingHigher]

This is quite possibly the best thing I've heard about Zelda... the only thing she needs is that representation.

I totally would if tournies ever came here. Calgary is lame.

Anyway, I doubt her placing will change drastically. Probably nothing more than a couple of places. Most likely down from what I gather. Zelda's no MK, but she's definitely no Captain falcon either. I see her "potentially", with good representation, reaching a peak of, say, top D or low C.

 

[Darkmusician]

I will be very surprised if Zelda doesn't move down slowly but surely.

It's not the discovering of new techs that will help Zelda mains win tournaments. It's the application and execution of all the basics.

And unfortunately my placing high in Hawaii is not going to do much to influence anything really. Hawaii is Hawaii. We are quite literally in the middle of nowhere. We don't travel, and we only compete once a month at the most. We also don't get many visitors cept maybe once a year or so. I mean we have a Bowser placing in the top 5 for goodness sake. A freaking Bowser. (Zelda ***** Bowser up the shell) jkjk

If Zelda is to have any chance of being higher in the tier list it's gonna be up to the people in the states with more tournaments. Or if you don't have tournaments you can do what I did and start your own circuit. It's way better than nothing. Going to tournaments or starting some in your area and building a community is the most important thing you can both for Zelda and for developing characters in general.

And I actually don't really mind wether Zelda rises to the top or hits rock bottom. I've never really cared about who is better than who. I don't fear better characters...just better players.

 

[Rykoshet]

<_< Ike mains are placing more and more in tournaments as time progresses, and we started off considered a terrible character, zelda has never been in that category as far as stigma goes.

Time to throw fuel on the fire, ike is a better character than zelda is.

Hate to say it, but I'm not even trolling.

 

[-Mars-]

<_< Ike mains are placing more and more in tournaments as time progresses, and we started off considered a terrible character, zelda has never been in that category as far as stigma goes.

Time to throw fuel on the fire, ike is a better character than zelda is.

Hate to say it, but I'm not even trolling.

I'm gonna take the bait cuz i'm bored lol.

Why? He's a power character that has trouble even landing a kill move, his recovery is one of the worst in the game, his only REAL safe move is his jab.......honestly take away his jab and Ike is complete crap.

He has his fair and his jabs......there isn't much depth to the character really. He has no reliable setups into his kill moves.......the better Ike players are limited to tricking the opponent into running into a KO move.

 

[Rykoshet]

Jab to up tilt is a legitimate killshot, able to land it at any point past 110. Down air is easy as hell to land and is a legitimate common 0-death scenario. Bair autocancels, is safe on block, comes out on frame 7, can be used for spacing, and again is a rather easy to land KO move. Farore's wind is as easy if not easier to harass than aether is, don't get it twisted. She's slow which makes her easy to camp (no change from ike), her projectile is impractical which makes her easy to spam (again, no change from ike), her reflector is rarely if ever actually used as a reflector.

All in all she's a power character without the weight to back it up.

Saying "take away his jab and he's crap" doesn't change that he has the jab. That's like saying "take away fox's up smash and he cant kill for ****"...

 

[Kataefi]

We're better off spending our times researching our characters and developing their metagames than going 'my character is better than yours' whilst poking tongues out or whatever like little kids.

Both have different matchups, so no one should be caring whether Zelda's better than Ike or whatever unless they use her in a situation or matchup where she actually is better than Ike and vice versa.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

Metagame is whatever on Zelda since she's rather simple and straightforward to begin with like Ike. Most AT's aren't too useful since they are a little hard to pull off and is rather situational. Much like some of Peach's ATs (Ex. Free turnip Pull)

In my honest Opinion, Zelda is going down a couple notches. Not because Zelda is a bad character, it's just that she's not progressing competitively as much as some characters are. Honestly, Tier list relies too much on popularity to really be reliable.

@ Rykoshet: Sorry, but I loled at you just because you aren't very articulate about Zelda. Sorry, your ignorance really brightened up my day.

 

[Rykoshet]

The fact that you think that I, of all people, am ignorant about zelda only goes to show how ridiculously off you are. Just because I'm succinctly wrapping up my points doesn't mean that they are inarticulate.


I'm not really going into whether or not zelda is bad but rather why she's not any better off than Ike is.

 

[SinkingHigher]

@ Rykoshet: Sorry, but I loled at you just because you aren't very articulate about Zelda. Sorry, your ignorance really brightened up my day.

Hello Irony my old friend.

 

[MrEh]

It's not the discovering of new techs that will help Zelda mains win tournaments. It's the application and execution of all the basics.

This.

I mean we have a Bowser placing in the top 5 for goodness sake. A freaking Bowser. (Zelda ***** Bowser up the shell) jkjk

That Bowser sounds silly. I wonder who it could be...

Or if you don't have tournaments you can do what I did and start your own circuit. It's way better than nothing. Going to tournaments or starting some in your area and building a community is the most important thing you can both for Zelda and for developing characters in general.

DO WANT.

 

[lil cj]

Doesnt Ike have more bad matchups than Zelda?
Most of Zelda's matchups are neutral so the Zelda player just has to be the better player to win most of the time.
Ike is all about punishing the opponent for their mistakes
Both are great characters
But Zelda has Sheik to back her up
Ike has his incredible KO power

 

[MrEh]

Both are great characters

No they aren't. XD

 

[Rykoshet]

^ This, both are honestly pretty lackluster.

 

[Kataefi]

True... but instead of making everyone pessimistic and making potential players go 'oh, you know what??? I WAS going to main Zelda and help her in tournies but she's **** and crap because everyone says so', we could take a more optimistic approach and start posting findings in that research thread and finally get some motivation going.

Does anyone here have frame capture devices? Also MrEH were you ever going to test Zelda's air releases? I might test them myself.

It's de-motivating and frankly uninspiring IMO to see players come here and whine about Zelda this, Zelda that. All characters in this game are capable with the right strategy, why else would bowser be placing top 5?

 

[Rykoshet]

At no point do I mean to discourage someone from playing zelda, however I think there's a far departure from "Zelda is flat out bad" and "Zelda is better than ike", unless you're just of the mindset thayt ike is the quintessential bad character. Basically what I've said is that it's on you to decide where that line is, but comparatively, the mid-tier sword user is in no way worse than her in ways tht don't just apply to her all the same (easily gimped recovery, telegraphed kill moves, able to be camped/spammed, etc).

<_< as for why certain pretty average characters place top whatever, it's because the person playing said character is just flat out that much better than the top-tier users around them.

 

[-Tempest-]

All this talk makes me wanna switch between my Toon Link and my Zelda at the next tourney I go to. Both of them are underestimated, it seems.

 

[Darkmusician]

Doesnt Ike have more bad matchups than Zelda?
Most of Zelda's matchups are neutral so the Zelda player just has to be the better player to win most of the time.
Ike is all about punishing the opponent for their mistakes
Both are great characters
But Zelda has Sheik to back her up
Ike has his incredible KO power

Not if the opponents using said neutral match ups figure out how to fight Zelda. There's nothing to it really once you know how to fight against Zelda.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

True... but instead of making everyone pessimistic and making potential players go 'oh, you know what??? I WAS going to main Zelda and help her in tournies but she's **** and crap because everyone says so', we could take a more optimistic approach and start posting findings in that research thread and finally get some motivation going.

Does anyone here have frame capture devices? Also MrEH were you ever going to test Zelda's air releases? I might test them myself.

It's de-motivating and frankly uninspiring IMO to see players come here and whine about Zelda this, Zelda that. All characters in this game are capable with the right strategy, why else would bowser be placing top 5?

It's a bit of a catch 22. People try to win tournaments with the lower tiers, they fail, thus they go play the higher tiers, which in turn only improves their placing on the Tier's list and leaves the lower tiers in the dust.

That's why I tend to think of the Tier's list as a big popularity contest.

 

[sniperworm]

Hey now guys, let's not rag too much on Bowser. He is just one spot lower than us on the tier list. If he's that bad, then what does that make Zelda...

 

[MrEh]

I might test them myself.

Don't bother. I tested them awhile ago and the results were pretty disappointing. Zelda is just to slow to utilize any sort of grab release shenanigans. You have them on Wario, but that's it. A fat load of good that does you though, especially since Wario is annoyingly hard to grab.

All characters in this game are capable with the right strategy, why else would bowser be placing top 5?

Not a day goes by when I don't ask myself the same question. I get lucky I guess. Or maybe it's because Bowser doesn't get ***** by Meta. *shrugs*

Hey now guys, let's not rag too much on Bowser. He is just one spot lower than us on the tier list. If he's that bad, then what does that make Zelda...

I've always said that Bowser was bad, just no where near as bad as people think. ^^

I'm pretty sure that Bowser's going to drop in the next tier list though. No one uses him and no one places with him. Bowser is 2nd worst in tourney results, only beating out Link. No wonder people think he sucks. XD

 

[Darkmusician]

MrEh always places consistently high because he outsmarts his opponents. Baiting, spacing, punishing and trapping. He combines that with Bowser's best available techniques for each situation.

I highly encourage everyone to follow MrEh's example and play with a good balance of brains and tech.

 

[-Mars-]

Jab to up tilt is a legitimate killshot, able to land it at any point past 110. Down air is easy as hell to land and is a legitimate common 0-death scenario. Bair autocancels, is safe on block, comes out on frame 7, can be used for spacing, and again is a rather easy to land KO move. Farore's wind is as easy if not easier to harass than aether is, don't get it twisted. She's slow which makes her easy to camp (no change from ike), her projectile is impractical which makes her easy to spam (again, no change from ike), her reflector is rarely if ever actually used as a reflector.

All in all she's a power character without the weight to back it up.

Saying "take away his jab and he's crap" doesn't change that he has the jab. That's like saying "take away fox's up smash and he cant kill for ****"...

Past 110.....why even have power if your most reliable KO setup isn't even viable until well after 100%. How you can say his dair is easy as hell to land is mind-boggling to me. Zelda has GUARANTEED setups into her lightning kicks off of her dtilt as we have just found out. She actually has viable ways of disposing of characters before 100%.

Her recovery is better than Ike's. She can actually recover from those deadzones that some dsmashes trajectory sends you on. Farore's may not be great, but at least it has fantastic distance in 16 directions while Ike's is easily telegraphed, easily edge-hogged, and can't cover horizontal distance. She also can stall with Naryus and her fair doesn't have the significant lag of Ike's fair so it allows her to actually risk attacking potential edge hoggers.

I agree that she gets camped pretty bad.....but so does Ike so I don't see what was the point of bringing that up.

All in all Ike is a character that lacks the kill setups to match his weight and dies if he goes more than a few feet offstage.

 

[goodkid]

MrEh always places consistently high because he outsmarts his opponents. Baiting, spacing, punishing and trapping. He combines that with Bowser's best available techniques for each situation.

I highly encourage everyone to follow MrEh's example and play with a good balance of brains and tech.

True, this is the only thing I try to improve on, the smarter opponent wins in most situations. Maybe we just need to camp better like Wario :embarrass Warios never really approach & only attack when they have to. If u think about it, Zelda is similar to Wario as she can hit like a truck @ high %. She just doesn't have the maneuverability as Wario does.

 

[Darkmusician]

True, this is the only thing I try to improve on, the smarter opponent wins in most situations. Maybe we just need to camp better like Wario :embarrass Warios never really approach & only attack when they have to. If u think about it, Zelda is similar to Wario as she can hit like a truck @ high %. She just doesn't have the maneuverability as Wario does.

She's also lacking in recovery options, weight/vitality. Heck Wario just has more options in general. Wario has the ability to move in and out while thowing out arials (all his arials are good for this reason) very quickly so he very rarely puts himself in a bad position by commiting to an approach.

 

[goodkid]

She's also lacking in recovery options, weight/vitality. Heck Wario just has more options in general. Wario has the ability to move in and out while thowing out arials (all his arials are good for this reason) very quickly so he very rarely puts himself in a bad position by commiting to an approach.

Thats why I like to teleport to a safe spot on the ground away from my opponents. We really just have to avoid being sent under the stage & get gimps whenever possible. Like if you can predict a jump from the ledge, a dair right when they jump will spike or using Uair or Kick is still fine.

 

[Rykoshet]

Past 110.....why even have power if your most reliable KO setup isn't even viable until well after 100%.

Because a guaranteed killshot at 110 in brawl is not common, and considering with DI people are fully capable of living at 150+, a power character having a 100% way to kill at 110 is not bad at all. Secondly, I say dair is easy to land because dair is easy as hell to land.

She can actually recover from those deadzones that some dsmashes trajectory sends you on.

And subsequently get hogged, smashed, whatever. Having the distance means nothing if you're going to die regardless of how far you went. Fine, if I get hit with one of 3 down smashes I'm not making it back, those rarely if ever hit me to begin with and send me off the stage. If they do, I accept my stock loss and keep going. If you get clipped out of fw at all, let alone get scouted, you're good as dead.

There's ONE character in the game that outright takes ike out if he's offstage, and he has wings.