What do you think Zelda's placement will be on the June tier list?

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Probably a combination of the two in my case. I was mainly backing up the point that -- against certain characters, mind you -- Zelda sorely lacks good options. Even against their counters (using my main as an example again: Pika vs. Marth), a lot of characters have tools they can use to pull out a win.... with Zelda, she seems to just get shut down by several of the cast.

I'm talking Zelda by herself, btw. Personally, I don't play Sheik, so I know nothing about using them together.

Zelda+Sheik is rockin because you pretty much get to abuse the best aspects of each character

 

[Kataefi]

Let's try and stay on topic and discuss Zelda's tier position along with Sheik! MrEh I'm well sorry I need to remove that picture of snake and ike because of the guidelines ^^ But I challenge you to post the 'family-friendly' equivalent of it though lmao! ^^

I've noticed in the general boards (or was it the tactical boards?) a lot of members are disputing whether or not Zelda/Sheik should have their own tier placement as a completely separate character from an independant Zelda or an independant Sheik.

What do people think of this?

 

[Snakeee]

I've noticed in the general boards (or was it the tactical boards?) a lot of members are disputing whether or not Zelda/Sheik should have their own tier placement as a completely separate character from an independant Zelda or an independant Sheik.

What do people think of this?

I think it would be a good idea, but a lot of people might be against it. It'll be hard to accurately place her on the tier list like that too.

 

[Ochobobo]

It's a good idea, I don't really think we have enough Zelda/Sheik combo results from tournaments to place it though... Or do we?

 

[KayLo!]

I think it would be a good idea, but a lot of people might be against it. It'll be hard to accurately place her on the tier list like that too.

I agree, although I think the same can be said about placing them separately since so few people seem to play them independently. (This goes more for Zelda than for Sheik.... I actually know quite a few Sheik-only mains now that I think about it.)

@Sonic the Hedgedawg: I'm well aware that Sheik/Zelda is more viable than Zelda alone, hehe, I just don't like Sheik's playstyle. I do play Zelda seriously, but she's more of a doubles/fun/soft secondary character for me..... I would never use her in a singles tourney for a matchup that wasn't in her favor. That's what Pika and Snake are for.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

im all for putting Zelda/sheik as their own slot on the list, but like snakeee said it could be hard to place here there.

 

[Deleted member]

I've noticed in the general boards (or was it the tactical boards?) a lot of members are disputing whether or not Zelda/Sheik should have their own tier placement as a completely separate character from an independant Zelda or an independant Sheik.

What do people think of this?

Since you must use each exclusively and you can never use both at the same time, you must be restricted to one or the other. Switching just places you elsewhere on the tier list. After all, where would a Zelda/Sheik slot even be at? A statistic average of Zelda and Sheik? The two totals summed? neither is correct. In the end, the SBR long ago decided that it has no practical purpose, and left them separate.

 

[Brinzy]

What are the tier lists composed of? I'm under the impression of match-ups + tournament results, but I don't really know. If it's match-ups, however, couldn't one argue that they'd be Zelda or Sheik under the best circumstances? Like, say for example Pikachu and ICs are part of why Sheik is where she is now. If someone goes all Zelda for the fight, this would eliminate part of Sheik's issue...

ah, nevermind. It doesn't really make all that much sense.

 

[Kataefi]

Actually... I was under the impression that there would be a position for Zelda and Sheik independently and also a spot for Zelda/Sheik together.

The reason I say this is only because Zelda/Sheik do have completely different matchups than the ratios we've so far determined for solo Sheik and Zelda. It's like a different character altogether.

But I'm looking at it from outside in so I'm no specialist on the topic. I just think together they are that much better than independently playing either, to the point where they seem like a completely different and superior character as one.

 

[Snakeee]

See, there's a lot of questions there. Like are you assuming that both characters would be used in every match up for Sheik/Zelda? Or would it consider that the player could do as he/she pleases with them and use one of the characters by themselves in certain match ups.

If it's the latter, that really wouldn't make too much sense to do, and we could honestly say that Sheik/Zelda is near top tier because that would cover just about every match up with a lot of them being a pretty strong advantage. It's not legitimately one character when we're talking about that. So, I think it would best make sense to have a slot assuming both characters were used, Sheik for damage building, and Zelda for the kills. If this was done otherwise, I don't think it could work out.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

The thing is, is that you rarely get anyone that effectively uses both Zelda and Sheik to their fullest potential and uses both of them in a single match. Most people prefer playing one or the other, and it's very hard, for some reason, for players to adjust to the differences. A lot of times, I guess it's hard to find an opportunity to Transform jump or smash the opponent off stage and transform, though I like transform jump myself.

Nowadays I'm actually finding out how effective using both of them in matches really affect my game. It's hard to switch styles of play, but once you're over that hurdle, then things just get that much easier.

 

[Deleted member]

Actually... I was under the impression that there would be a position for Zelda and Sheik independently and also a spot for Zelda/Sheik together.

I posted assuming this scenario. Ideally, in every match either by the match or player familiarity, one will always be better than the other, and that switching to the other is to make yourself inferior.

I proposed Zelda/Sheik as one character a long time ago for melee, but the idea was shot down in that only Sheik merited a top tier placement. Aside from decided logistic reasons, precedent holds them as individual characters.

 

[Snakeee]

I hate when I make a post that I actually put some thought into and it ends up on the very bottom of the page

and Canvas that's not true, there are a few good players that use both of them in a match. Besides myself, off the top of my head there's Ryoko and NL on occasion. Ryoko hasn't been playing in tourneys but he's still really good apparently

 

[lil cj]

Making Zelda/Sheik their own tier is a great idea

It could be called Secret tier
It would be right below S(nake) tier

They are so much better together

Yesterday in a tourny I was in when my Zelda was getting ***** I just whiped out Sheik at the right time and started doing some heavy damage then I switched back to Zelda not just for the kill but to confuse my opponent so they would have to change up their strategy.

Zelda mains should learn to play Sheik and vice versa
Is there any Sheik guides on SWF??
I dont think Ive seen one

Just a guide for Zelda
There should be a guide for Sheik too

 

[Brinzy]

... Go to the Sheik board. If you read the threads carefully, you'll find the Sheik guide.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

and if you go to the peach boards you'll find 5 guides >.> lol

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda/Sheik = the most advantageous possible combination of Zelda and Sheik for each possible matchup. Anything else would be using the character on a level less than its fullest possible potential.

The character Zelda/Sheik has a MUCH better matchup against Wolf than zelda alone and a much better matchup against the Ice Climbers than Sheik alone, for example. And also has a better matchup against some characters than either alone.

Zelda/Sheik is leaps and bounds better than either of her two counterparts because she's so much harder to counterpick.

 

[Ussi]

Zelda/Sheik = the most advantageous possible combination of Zelda and Sheik for each possible matchup. Anything else would be using the character on a level less than its fullest possible potential.

The character Zelda/Sheik has a MUCH better matchup against Wolf than zelda alone and a much better matchup against the Ice Climbers than Sheik alone, for example. And also has a better matchup against some characters than either alone.

Zelda/Sheik is leaps and bounds better than either of her two counterparts because she's so much harder to counterpick.

I'll give two examples on this being false...


Pikachu will **** Sheik so badly that going only Zelda would have done better since Pikachu CGs Sheik to 100%.

My 2nd example is Ike. Going Zelda is giving him a chance to win. Sheik already does enough to Ike and gimping him with Sheik is much more easier than killing him with Zelda.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'll give two examples on this being false...


Pikachu will **** Sheik so badly that going only Zelda would have done better since Pikachu CGs Sheik to 100%.

My 2nd example is Ike. Going Zelda is giving him a chance to win. Sheik already does enough to Ike and gimping him with Sheik is much more easier than killing him with Zelda.

no. your definition of zelda/sheik is false.

Zelda/Sheik means that you have the OPTION of using one character, the other, or both. Zelda alone ignores sheik and sheik alone ignores Zelda.

Zelda/Sheik can switch between them, but doesn't have to. there is NEVER a penalty for having an OPTION to switch even if you don't take it.

I mean, at the very least, you can switch to zelda or sheik in the above two matchups to refresh your moveset, but you don't HAVE to. And at over 100% damage, Pika can't CG sheik.

So in the instance of Pikachu, Zelda/Sheik's matchup would be essentially the same as zelda's alone and in the instance of ike, it'd be essentially as good as Sheik's alone. HOWEVER, in respect of total matchups, Zelda/Sheik has better matchups for the combined instances of Ike and Sheik than either Zelda or Sheik have alone.

 

[Kataefi]

You've actually proven why his statement isn't false ^^

Sonic said using the most advantageous combination of the 2. Because Sheik is hard countered by Pika, Zelda would be the most advantageous choice out of using the two of them as one character.

In melee, Sheik was dominant over Zelda and would practically always be the most advantaged option in every matchup. In brawl, they're far more equal; transformation is viable providing it gives the greatest maximum advantage possible.

Basically, Sheik/Zelda as one character have matchups split into 3 categories:

1. Solo Sheik Matchups
2. Sheik to Zelda Matchups
3. Solo Zelda Matchups

I believe this is what Zelda/Sheik as one character is comprised of in terms of matchups. Independent Sheik and Zelda mains have completely different matchups regarding categories 2 and 3 for Sheik, and categories 1 and 2 for Zelda.

But I understand why it would be hard to place them =( I think it would be nifty to include them together though xD

 

[Villi]

I think Falco and perhaps Pikachu are examples of Zelda to Sheik matchups. Zelda can fight Falco, but when Falco can't chaingrab Sheik, she has a much easier time chasing him down. The chance to change for Pikachu probably won't come unless you manage to take the first stock off after sustaining some damage. When you manage to get in though, I think he seems like a prime character for tilting [based on the feel of him him because I always use Zelda anyway].

 

[KayLo!]

The chance to change for Pikachu probably won't come unless you manage to take the first stock off after sustaining some damage. When you manage to get in though, I think he seems like a prime character for tilting [based on the feel of him him because I always use Zelda anyway].

Umm, I'd say stay Zelda the whole match. Pika has a much harder time approaching Zelda in general (both for damage and for setting up a kill), and camping isn't as effective against her. Plus, I've never had any major problems with Sheik's tilts when I'm Pika..... he falls fast, but he's still super light.

 

[Villi]

Umm, I'd say stay Zelda the whole match. Pika has a much harder time approaching Zelda in general (both for damage and for setting up a kill), and camping isn't as effective against her. Plus, I've never had any major problems with Sheik's tilts when I'm Pika..... he falls fast, but he's still super light.

The way I think about it: Pikachu can die from ftilt-up smash true combo anywhere from 78-91%. Sheik's needles go through Pika's thunder jolt, which will not kill me even if I'm at high damage. So as soon as I see a thunder jolt, Pikachu is at 18%. If I land an ftilt on Pikachu, I can probably do another one and finish it with up tilt, so 22%. If I land another ftilt, I can probably do it again and finish off with nair, ~20%. Ftilt, ftilt, nair ~18%. Pika's at minimum kill percent and I can either go for the kill and hope he doesn't DI or just do something else to ensure death. If I fail, transform to Zelda. If I can avoid being killed, it's all I have to do. If I have stock advantage, I can pick and choose my openings. If I die, back to Zelda, hopefully having done at least enough damage for a dtilt lock.

 

[Snakeee]

You guys aren't realizing though that you can't just say you're always going to use whichever character you want for each match up. As long as you're playing against someone who plays more than one character, you might end up starting as the wrong one for the match up. This can put you at a disadvantage, or at the least you'll most likely take some damage transforming at the beginning of the match. (Sometimes this is worth it, however)

 

[Villi]

Well, yah. In the spirit of fairness for double blind, I always pick Sheik first against randoms because she has the best match ups. If I know I'm gonna play an IC though, **** that.

I'm considering whether Zelda might be the better character to start with if you win the first match. Sheik has some tough counters, while Zelda's bad matchups aren't unmanageable, at least.

 

[MrEh]

But I challenge you to post the 'family-friendly' equivalent of it though lmao! ^^

Challenge accepted.

It could be called Secret tier
It would be right below S(nake) tier

There's already a secret tier. It's called "Steak Tier."

They are so much better together

Eh, depends.

Zelda mains should learn to play Sheik and vice versa
Is there any Sheik guides on SWF??
I dont think Ive seen one

Sheik boards lol

 

[Darkmusician]

Needs moar SantaDorf!!! lolz Ike has been a bad boy this year. XD

I'm a one trick pony in tournaments so my only game plan is "just win baby!" >:3

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Needs moar SantaDorf!!! lolz Ike has been a bad boy this year. XD

I'm a one trick pony in tournaments so my only game plan is "just win baby!" >:3

yeah, we know, and it's for people like you that we'd want zelda to keep an individual position on the teir list as well as Zelda/Sheik

 

[Ussi]

Challenge accepted.

I swear Ike looks like "Ito Miura" from W Juliet.

 

[Kataefi]

Challenge accepted.

ROFL! Family-friendly indeed! Though Ike HAS been on the naughty list recently xD

If Zelda/Sheik were to ever be placed (I'm *NOT saying they should be)... and considering that they are better together than independently used, where do you guys think they'd be placed considering their matchups and tourney placings?

* missing out words is not fun =(

 

[KayLo!]

The way I think about it: Pikachu can die from ftilt-up smash true combo anywhere from 78-91%. Sheik's needles go through Pika's thunder jolt, which will not kill me even if I'm at high damage. So as soon as I see a thunder jolt, Pikachu is at 18%. If I land an ftilt on Pikachu, I can probably do another one and finish it with up tilt, so 22%. If I land another ftilt, I can probably do it again and finish off with nair, ~20%. Ftilt, ftilt, nair ~18%. Pika's at minimum kill percent and I can either go for the kill and hope he doesn't DI or just do something else to ensure death. If I fail, transform to Zelda. If I can avoid being killed, it's all I have to do. If I have stock advantage, I can pick and choose my openings. If I die, back to Zelda, hopefully having done at least enough damage for a dtilt lock.

Late response, but, umm, as for the tjolting.... Pika can easily outcamp Sheik if it came down to it. He can jump his jolts or QAC forward/backward/onto platforms and tjolt, so even though it's a telegraphed projectile, it's not that predictable. (Definitely not as easy as "Oh, there's a tjolt, Pika's at 18%!") The camping issue vs. Pika is also very stage dependent.... if it's not a completely flat stage, tjolt > needles since it travels around obstacles and platforms.

As for the rest of what you said, in this situation, you're at a high percentage after taking off a stock, amirite? Against a good Pika (i.e., one that knows not to walk into ftilts and whatnot), you'll probably be dead before you can get that much damage on them.

My point was that setting up a kill on Sheik is much, much easier than setting up one on Zelda, so from the Sheik/Zelda POV, it would be more beneficial to just stay Zelda. You can rack up just as much damage when you're Zelda, AND you'll be safer from dying.

For one, QAC tactics don't work against Zelda (rather, they don't work against Zelda's usmash.... ><), and approaching with fair, Pika's main approach/setup, is unsafe because of fsmash/usmash and even NL if you time the IFs right. Sheik doesn't have much to effectively counter either QAC or fair, plus she's fairly easy to Pikastorm (SH'd, lagless dairs). Also, Zelda > Sheik when it comes to camping against Pika, which is better than putting yourself at risk to get a few ftilts in if you're a stock ahead.

I'm not saying Sheik is completely useless against Pika.... imo, the matchup is a little overrated in Pika's favor atm. But it's still not good no matter how you look at it. Zelda's always better -- that's what I think, anyway.

@the Snake/Ike pics: o.O!!!

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

where do you guys think they'd be placed considering their matchups and tourney placings?

Certainly in the top half of the cast. Probably mid-upper C tier?

 

[Villi]

Fair 'nuff, KayLo. The Pikachu matchup is pretty rare around here, so it's good to get info.

Snake rawr.

 

[L-T!]

Personally I think that Zelda should move up in the tier list.

 

[goodkid]

Fair 'nuff, KayLo. The Pikachu matchup is pretty rare around here, so it's good to get info.

Snake rawr.

Zelda's d-tilt cancels out the thunder jolt, but sends her slightly backwards. This matchup is easier as Zelda IMO, Zelda's upsmash can wreck all of Pika's fair/nair shield pressure. Nayru can reflect thunder, but many Pikas are able to aim so they won't be sweetspotted by it. Zelda can kill Pika @ a much lower % than Shiek, but it really depends on who your more comfortable with.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

Uh, Zelda is the only viable choice against PIkachu since Pikachu has a 0-100% CG on Sheik. XD

 

[lil cj]

Yea Zelda ***** Pika in every way
Sheik shouldnt be used in this matchup
Pika has a CG on Sheik to like 100% i think


Zelda should definitely move up
She's great at camping and her defensive game is incredible
And on top of that she can always turn into Sheik
when things get rough...she should be in B or C tier at least

 

[Rawnie]

Zelda just isn't B or C tier material. At best, I could see her getting to top of E tier or bottom of D tier. I still don't see even that happening.

Along with Sheik, I can defintely see them being in around C tier. Together, they have great match-ups. The thing is, Zelda and Sheik are rarely used as a duo.

 

[lil cj]

Zelda isnt that bad at all...she's simple to use but she has massive kill power
Her only flaw is her weight and that can be worked around if you play defensively.

Sheik has potential and might be the next MK
She has the speed, godly ftilt/combos, and gimping ability
Who knows she could end up being one of the best like she was in Melee

Maybe if transform was faster like in Melee
More people would use them together more
Maybe theres some sort of technique that speeds up the transformation time

 

[Snakeee]

Tbh, I can't see Zelda moving up any higher. She should stay about where she is, but if she's going anywhere it will be a couple steps down.

Sheik should go up though, and if they consider using them together like we mentioned, the duo should probably be at least at the top of mid tier.