[Week 12] Zelda's Moveset Discussion: Down B (Transform)

[RoyalBlood]

o: that SOUNDS good.... but down+B kills fox from 0% damage from the center of FD!

But Lightning Kick does it instantly ;3
But when the sweetspot change has happened to me it was with Fair, Fair has more range and Bair has more speed right? :o

 

[-Mars-]

Yes, I personally only use bair though......I have no reason to use fair.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Yes, I personally only use bair though......I have no reason to use fair.

that's silly though... some uses for LKs only work for fair (like the rising fair from the ledge) and, also, if your foe is in front of you in the air, I mean, fair is going to be the only option. also what if bair is really decayed?

it's nice she gets two attacks. it's like she gets only half the decay!

 

[Villi]

Against smaller characters, I take what I can get in terms of lightning kicks. RARing a bair is really quite fast, but when you have to fall before you can hit someone on the ground, fair or bair work equally well and can work in conjunction. Lots of taller human shaped characters can be head-shotted with fairs, so if you need to run and jump before you can RAR, then fair is one of your faster options. Fairing is also easier for me to time out of a full hop because there's less time between inputs for me to misjudge. While I think bair is the better move overall, fair is not much worse and there are situations when it's the better option.

 

[Pappioll]

Fair and Bair are beasty moves. I prefer Bair though like many others do aswell.
Fastfalling Fair seems to sweetspot all the time for me, its awesome.

Am I the only one who miss the tiny sound that came when performing Fair and Bair in Melee? It was a nice touch to the move

 

[SinkingHigher]

I've FW'ed to the edge before my opponent and knocked them back off the stage before, then you can ledge-drop and b-air sweetspot for the KO. It's EXTREMELY sexy. I think there are replies. I do it quite often so there should be at least one or two,.

 

[Villi]

Whatchoo mean replies? *broken up smashes you*

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Question: Because fair takes slightly longer to come out, I don't think I've ever managed to hit a grounded Metaknight with it. However, I have managed to do this with her bair. Is it because of the smaller startup time?

Someone with a copy of Brawl nearby give this a shot.

 

[Villi]

Question: Because fair takes slightly longer to come out, I don't think I've ever managed to hit a grounded Metaknight with it. However, I have managed to do this with her bair. Is it because of the smaller startup time?

Someone with a copy of Brawl nearby give this a shot.

Yeah, it's because of the shorter start-up. You can't get the sweetspot, though...

 

[SwastikaPyle]

I did it just a couple days ago. Try it in training mode.

 

[Oh Snap]

I actually took out a stock with a SH f-air on a stupid Peach. loool.

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

A lot of the time it almost seems to me like Fair has a slightly bigger hitbox for its sweetspot than bair, I've gotten all kinds of weird angled sweetspots with fair but never with bair... Can this be tested?

 

[RedSnowman]

Yeah, it's because of the shorter start-up. You can't get the sweetspot, though...

You can... just not horribly consistently/reliably

Just another tidbit of knowledge too... Luigi's who use fireballs really well to contain and corner you... pay attention if they overspam them because very situationaly if you predice a fireball coming from a Luigi falling to/on the ground you can SH it and land a bair/fair to his face . If the timing/spacing is wrong though he will have time to spot dodge and punish you though.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

A lot of the time it almost seems to me like Fair has a slightly bigger hitbox for its sweetspot than bair, I've gotten all kinds of weird angled sweetspots with fair but never with bair... Can this be tested?

that seems to happen with me too

 

[Oh Snap]

Yeah, when I took out that Peach with a f-air, I don't think my heel was even touching Peach o_o

 

[RoyalBlood]

^This has happened to me too with Peach too o.o It was with a Fair and it sweetspots in front of her face D= I think or...OPTICAL ILLUSION =O

 

[Oh Snap]

lool. Peach likes being kicked in the face. I have a screenshot of that haha.

F-air sucks, but it does come in handy sometimes. Now I have to remember to SH f-air when I fight a Peach. ****, that ***** is annoying to play against.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

well sometimes THAT happens because it automatically makes your foe freeze upright, and if they were contorted in some way when you hit them, your foot won't be anywhere near where it initially hit.

 

[Oh Snap]

I'm actually on time to update this time ^_^

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

oh gosh Din's fire time already?

well we all know it gets stronger and larger the farther it goes. And that itwill continue going the entirely of it's length if Zelda is hit and can be prematurely detonated by terain.


well I have a few uses for it:
-Bait airdodge and punish
-punish misstimed rolls, dodges
-finish off certain combos (after nair a lot)
-edgeguard (especially ROB or gliders)
- Trade with certain projectiles
-force approaches from a good amount of the cast
-short hop glide it to approach/retreat
-wavebounce mindgames
-punish vulnerable foes at a distance.
- recover from high occasionally
-RARE stagespikes


am I missing anything?

 

[Brinzy]

Din's Fire.

Use it on glides, use it when you don't want to take a bigger risk with another move for edgeguarding (so they can come back with more damage... also, just stand away from them, because it's not like them being high really does anything against you), use it when you can read an attack from your opponent but you can't really cut through it (swords), use it to counter some projectile spam, and use it to make sure your opponent isn't really being lazy.

Otherwise, do not use this. Lack of freefall or even being able to cancel it without having it detonate immediately (as if you were hit) would've made this a lot more worthwhile, but oh well.

 

[Oh Snap]

The interesting moves that aren't covered have topics for themselves (Jab, Dtilt, Farore's Wind).

The rest are...well...kinda boring to discuss XD

Don't use Dins' on opponents like Link, Mario, and Squirtle predictibly...you might kill yourself LOL.

 

[RedSnowman]

Din's main uses for me are for mind games and off edge pressure. I don't overspam it off the edge but if I force them to air dodge then they are lower and it sets me up to read them and apply a dair or LK accordingly. If they try to get really high up like a Pit or a Luigi using his 2nd jump and downB and you predict that you can get some easy hits and occasionally a kill. I glide with it occasionally but normally I just pressure a player with it from time to time... and every now and then I will explode it way early baiting a roll and punish with a dsmash. It is a good move imo, not a spammable one, but it adds to Zelda's options and is useful.

 

[Kaffei]

Din's Fire is one of Zelda's most useful skills.

It can be used to approach, bair & even juggle. A lot of people spam it, which makes the Zelda player predicatable, & potentially leading to a loss.

Unfortunately, some characters can absorb Din's Fire, which gives her a disadvantage.

I usually use it to bait, or to give my opponent off-stage-pressure. Too much isn't good.

 

[Silent_Rain]

What I love about Din's Fire is it's HUGE hit box. It is of course not smart to spam it, especially against characters like G&W who can absorb it. When I play against him, I seldom use it but when I do, I make it explode before it actually reaches him so I can trick him to take out the bucket and then use another move to punish him. I also tend to release din's fire when the center is above or not as close to my opponent's character so the tip of din's fire can hit them, thus messing with their timed side-steps or air dodges. Like I said, I love taking advantage of it's hit box.

 

[Kataefi]

Just be aware when and when not to use it. I find din's to be character dependant. Against clumsy and 'slower' characters like ganondorf and d3, it's a blessing. Against nimble characters - Sheik, Sonic, Meta, Marth etc... it's definitely a curse.

As a projectile it's awful, but as a spacing and pressure tool, it's outstanding. It annoys players and can catch them off guard. If Zelda purposely mistimes it, the opponent can get struck. It's a move that makes one desperate to stop it. An opponent will do anything to stop the din's spam, frequently rushing in and approaching Zelda, knowing full well it's a high risk-reward strategy - they'll either get a smash to the face or a strike her successfully.

She can use it to stop the momentum of an approaching opponent. Diddy and Peach spring to mind. She can approach if she SH glides with it into an FSmash or hyphen USmash.

As an edgeguard, it's effective against characters that have to grab the ledge. A forced airdodge can make an opponent miss sweetspotting the ledge XD making for a very satisfying kill. But she mustn't get trigger happy. Din's on many occasions can SAVE opponents offstage than kill them, so be very observant.

Watch the enemy, not din's itself. <-- MY LOVELY ADVICE! XD
Hope this helps in anyway!

 

[Kaffei]

Just be aware when and when not to use it. I find din's to be character dependant. Against clumsy and 'slower' characters like ganondorf and d3, it's a blessing. Against nimble characters - Sheik, Sonic, Meta, Marth etc... it's definitely a curse.

As a projectile it's awful, but as a spacing and pressure tool, it's outstanding. It annoys players and can catch them off guard. If Zelda purposely mistimes it, the opponent can get struck. It's a move that makes one desperate to stop it. An opponent will do anything to stop the din's spam, frequently rushing in and approaching Zelda, knowing full well it's a high risk-reward strategy - they'll either get a smash to the face or a strike her successfully.

She can use it to stop the momentum of an approaching opponent. Diddy and Peach spring to mind. She can approach if she SH glides with it into an FSmash or hyphen USmash.

As an edgeguard, it's effective against characters that have to grab the ledge. A forced airdodge can make an opponent miss sweetspotting the ledge XD making for a very satisfying kill. But she mustn't get trigger happy. Din's on many occasions can SAVE opponents offstage than kill them, so be very observant.

Watch the enemy, not din's itself. <-- MY LOVELY ADVICE! XD
Hope this helps in anyway!

Agreed. It's best to watch your opponent, & have yourself as a peripheral visionary.

 

[Villi]

I think endeavoring not to use Din's has made me a better overall player as Zelda. I'm recently learning though that sometimes a good old fashioned barrage of fireballs is just what the doctor ordered to unnerve a campy opponent.

Usually though, I'll space it for a 9% hitter for them to either run into or just to keep them from approaching. Especially if they're trying to space aerials against me, I find running away and b-reversing a Din's to where I was standing is difficult to punish.

 

[-Mars-]

Lol the two posters at the top of this page have very similar names:0

Yes, Dins is useful in some areas. I certainly don't refrain from using it at all, but I use it sparingly. I use it to finish off the basic usmash-usmash-nair string, force airdodges from crappy recoveries, and it does fantastic damage. The blast radius is huge if it's at furthest, so against slower opponents sometimes it's unpunishable.

Another big use it has is stopping Pit, MetaKnight, and Charizard from gliding on their return to the stage...........that's huge.

 

[Bandit]

I have found it useful to draw opponents into an approach. I know they are coming and explode the dins and quickly draw into shield (or spot dodge depending on situation) and punish accordingly. My personal choice is the dtilt trap. The area I am in does not have a Zelda other than myself and have a real problem with this as they are just seeing it for the first time.

I've also found it at very short distances to hit frequently as people don't expect it. I don't do it often, but it catches people off guard when I do. It allows me to reset the spacing or I can get under the opponent and do some damage.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Against nimble characters - Sheik, Sonic, Meta, Marth etc... it's definitely a curse.

Only if you actually aim them, when they always dodge, but I still use it as a way to stop their approach by detonating it very shortly after starting the attack. If used conservately, they´ll eventually start approaching to hit Zelda and either run into Din´s explosion or need to shield or dodge it, ending up straight into the reach of Zelda´s attacks.

 

[Oh Snap]

I dunno if anyone mentioned this yet, but aim for the floor sometimes.

 

[SinkingHigher]

I dunno if anyone mentioned this yet, but aim for the floor sometimes.

Sometimes when I KNOW I'm gonna get hit I din down and let it flow naturally, in hopes that they will get hit by it and I can meet them in time for a lightning kick.

From what I recall it's not really the most reliable technique, but it's helped me many a time. I haven't really paid much attention to the outcome so I don't know if I can recommend it without some testing.

 

[Kataefi]

I dunno if anyone mentioned this yet, but aim for the floor sometimes.

^ this.

It baits the opponent to jump and airdodge, setting Zelda up for a possible hyphen USmash.

Also, when someone is knocked off stage. Time and explode din's where the enemy will grab the ledge. I do this against falco all the time, and it often strikes him or he'll airdodge and miss the ledge completely.

And Kaffei we do have really similar names! >.>

 

[Kaffei]

^ this.

It baits the opponent to jump and airdodge, setting Zelda up for a possible hyphen USmash.

Also, when someone is knocked off stage. Time and explode din's where the enemy will grab the ledge. I do this against falco all the time, and it often strikes him or he'll airdodge and miss the ledge completely.

And Kaffei we do have really similar names! >.>

Yeah I agree with this too. If for instance you were to get hit while executing Din's, the downward trajectory would already been implemented, which hits the ground, potentially hitting your opponent.

Lol@Similar names. :D

 

[Rykoshet]

Din's Fire is one of Zelda's most useful skills.

I have found it useful to draw opponents into an approach.

I swear to you guys I wasn't lying in wait for this move to come up, and I've been sitting here resisting the urge to respond but come on!

On a positive note I'm glad a large number of you are coming to find yourself relying on it less in situations where it's a gimme response.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I swear to you guys I wasn't lying in wait for this move to come up, and I've been sitting here resisting the urge to respond but come on!

On a positive note I'm glad a large number of you are coming to find yourself relying on it less in situations where it's a gimme response.

Zelda's MOST useful move, of course, is Down+B. but as her only projectile, din's DOES have its uses and it CAN force approaches.

it's just not exceptional like many noobs believe

 

[Oh Snap]

I don't think Dins' can make any character with a projectile approach, except for the one's that're worse than Dins' fire, which shouldn't be a lot since there's a lot of better projectiles that Din's Fire...

 

[PK-ow!]

well I have a few uses for it:
-Bait airdodge and punish
-punish misstimed rolls, dodges
-finish off certain combos (after nair a lot)
-edgeguard (especially ROB or gliders)
- Trade with certain projectiles
-force approaches from a good amount of the cast
-short hop glide it to approach/retreat
-wavebounce mindgames
-punish vulnerable foes at a distance.
- recover from high occasionally
-RARE stagespikes

Aside from all the stuff listed here, I stress that getting the most out of Din's is keeping yourself open for both opportunities to trap and to zone. My performance with Zelda went way up when I saw it as a trapping tool, but I still made the brickwalls when they worked.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=183816

In particular, if you ever go to use Din's just because "it will make it," think about it before you do. Even if it lands, it doesn't always improve things for you. And there could be better options (I've seen *so* many times a Din's come out when a Lightning Kick would have ended it right there).

I mean, I would say the amount of time the uses of Din's apply break down as follows:

-Bait airdodge and punish - 40%
-punish misstimed rolls, dodges - 3%
-finish off certain combos (after nair a lot) - 4%
-edgeguard (especially ROB or gliders) - 34.9%
-Trade with certain projectiles - 5%
-force approaches from a good amount of the cast - applies when it applies
-short hop glide it to approach/retreat - 1%
-wavebounce mindgames - 4%
-punish vulnerable foes at a distance. - 3%
- recover from high occasionally - 0%
- RARE stagespikes - 0.1%

It's not about 'baiting airdodge' in my words; it's just about making them screw up. You send out the Din's with a plan both for if they do airdodge it, and if they don't. You also do it to make them change the way they move in the air.

When I'm forcing an approach, I find myself switching from just throwing it out as a wall, to actually control my opponent. That is, in the first case, I just make his life hard, hoping he'll screw up and take damage with no risk on my part. But as he gets closer, I position myself a bit, drawing out the moment he reaches me, making him engage with the spacing I want.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

There is a couple of frames in between air dodging and when they land in which you can hit them before they bring up the shield. Learn to execute this flawlessy for extra damage whenever you can.