[Week 12] Zelda's Moveset Discussion: Down B (Transform)

[-Mars-]

I've NEVER risked it.

Though I'd love to know myself. I think I'll test it. I want to make a chart showing everything usmash can beat. I'll do that later.

Also, with ganon, I find his dair is very easily telegraphed when he falls towards Zelda. For this reason I short hop to uair. Works even better with tap jump on. A wise ganon won't take the risk, because uair beats EVERYTHING coming down. It is the highest priority Uair in the game.

But back to Usmash, I like to follow down tilt lock with this move at lower percents providing the opponent trips or is laucnhed ever so slightly. A great way at racking up damage.

When an opponent approaches from long distance they expect a din's so they can air dodge. Time the din's right so they jump and air dodge almost above Zelda. On most occasions they'll be caught into usmash.

HI GUYS btw! I'm new to the smash boards but definitely not new to zelda herself. I think she's brilliant in this game, and I'm starting to pick her up again from a long break in using her.

Welcome! hope you contribute to the Zelda community!

 

[Brinzy]

This move is so great. With some characters (see: Ganon and C. Falcon), if you get them in the air, there is really NOTHING they can do to stop it except for get past Zelda to the ground. Usmash beats out all of their moves in the air, and they can't airdodge past it because as soon as they land, they'll get hit.

I think that if it couldn't be DI'd out of, this would be one of the best smash attacks in the game if it isn't already.

 

[Oh Snap]

Oops! I thought you meant dair.

Yes Zelda's Usmash beats Ganon's down b from my experience.

Great! And welcome to the Zelda boards.

Also, the last hit of Usmash may hit even if the opponent to airdodges!

 

[-Mars-]

Another great thing about this move is that most of the knockback is in the last hit, I love when I barely hit someone and they go"WTF!" as they fly off screen.

 

[Villi]

Don't spam it. When I fight other Zeldas, it's my favorite bad habit to punish out of shield. Even if your shield isn't completely fresh, all you have to do is tilt it upward to avoid a shield stab and then enemy Zelda eats a bair/dsmash/dash attack out of shield. Pfft, ironically, I could even punish it with up smash if I wanted lol

Don't get too excited about up smashes when someone is above you and you know they still have their double jump -- all they have to do is double jump at the right moment and punish your lag with a dair. You might be able to out-prioritize them, but if you get baited, you get punished.

For dairs you know better than to try to beat like Link, TL, and G&W why bother risking it. Just bait it by standing where you know they want to hit you, then fox trot away and true pivot an f-smash where they'll land. Much safer.

If you're going to use it for shield pressure, you have to make sure it will stab their shield before you use it. Use Din's to weaken their shield if they shield that. Preceed it with a jab at shield safe distance. Better yet, if you can d-tilt and jab first and they still can't figure out a good out of shield option, you've got a good chance of either shield stabbing them or breaking their shield. If they do reveal their out of shield tactic to you, at least you didn't have to commit to a laggy attack.

Jump canceled up smash out of shield is your fastest out of shield option. If someone is pressuring your shield at close distance like a Peach (floated dair to nair) or a Fox (dair to grab) might, this will take full advantage of your frame advantage. Also punishes a Marth who very poorly spaces his fair -- nair oos is better for less poorly spaced fairs, though.

Up smash is great for punishing spot dodgers. If someone is spot dodging twice in a row a lot or just spot dodging predictably, go to town with your up smash. Works on air dodgers most of the time, too.

It really shouldn't be used as an approach in most situations. A hyphen smash from one point to the other has about as much range as your fsmash. Use it with set-ups like jabs or d-tilt, to juggle at 0%, but the majority of the time it's best used defensively.

 

[SinkingHigher]

Dont know if this has been said, but U-smash to U-smash works at low percentages.

I *believe* it's a guaranteed lock..


At mid percentages you can follow it up with a U-air. At low percentages u-tilt or SHb-air work.

I believe it's a good close-range approach for characters who are air-borne.

(I don't know if I was able to save the replay, but I hit someone with the end of Zelda's first swing (to the right) and they slid across the floor to the left quite far, almost as if I had induced a trip.)

 

[Villi]

(I don't know if I was able to save the replay, but I hit someone with the end of Zelda's first swing (to the right) and they slid across the floor to the left quite far, almost as if I had induced a trip.)

Weeird. It would make sense that the 1 % hits have horizontal knockback designed to suck you toward Zelda... that's probably why people sometimes go into tripping animations if you up smash them under a Battle Field platform.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

The only problem is... it's a smash that's so feared, many characters won't venture into that kind of territory (above Zelda) EVER. I think this hurts her game a lot because she excels having her opponent above her.

that's not all bad.

it forces your oponent into an awkward position because they conciously change their gameplay to avoid it.


Also... Usmash is very fast. Has anyone said that yet?

Or that it chains into itself v. heavies & fastfallers

 

[SinkingHigher]

It's good for punishing d-air spammers too.

Except Tinkerbell. You can block the first spike though to make him bounce, and catch him out of the second.

Oh, and GW . I can't out-prioritize him for the life of me. UpB and D-air are just impossible to attack. I guess waiting for the landing then punishing will have to do...

 

[M@v]

Upsmash is definitely one of Zelda's best moves. Great Damage, good priority, very good knockback. Also. it can hit people standing right next to zelda. I learned that a while back when I tried to dash attack a Zelda that missed me with upsmash. I got sucked into it.

 

[RedSnowman]

I really love her usmash. It racks damage, it kills, it's just a great tool... especially when you get to know the playstyle of your opponent. If you can guess they are going to sh approach you and use a sliding forward usmash in advance they get punished. If you make them air dodge for a potential uair and beat them to the ground you can punish with a usmash. Because of it's massive priority it is useful in a ton of situations. Not only that, but it's a great multi-hit move that punishes excessive spot dodgers and can shield stab sometimes if they shield. I don't know how I could play Zelda w/o this move to be honest.

 

[Oh Snap]

Ganon's downB beats Usmash.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

oh god no it doesn't

DDD's dair does though. So does lucario's and ike's.

 

[Kataefi]

oh god no it doesn't

DDD's dair does though. So does lucario's and ike's.

Yes can I refer everyone to this thread I just made:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201592

Hope it helps!

 

[-Mars-]

Ganon's downB beats Usmash.

Ganons down b has pretty bad priority actually.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Yes can I refer everyone to this thread I just made:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201592

Hope it helps!

<_< you can beat toonies Dair. it requires timing, but you can definitely do it. I'm absolutely positive of this because I've done it. It's hard and so sometimes it's not worth the risk, but it IS doable. Same thing with regular link... the risk is bigger than the reward normally.

 

[Kataefi]

<_< you can beat toonies Dair. it requires timing, but you can definitely do it. I'm absolutely positive of this because I've done it. It's hard and so sometimes it's not worth the risk, but it IS doable. Same thing with regular link... the risk is bigger than the reward normally.

That's why he's in the unbeatable group, because the risk far outweighs the reward in comparison to the other characters. It's something that needs to be done with more the luck of timing than the skill of timing.

It's not like GnW's where the risk and reward are quite balanced (though more risk than reward.)

I suppose I could move TL up a group? What does everyone say? I'll test him again and see what I find.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I suppose I could move TL up a group? What does everyone say? I'll test him again and see what I find.

yeah. that's probably right.

And I'd move ike down. ike shouldn't be dumb enough to misstime it.

 

[Kataefi]

yeah. that's probably right.

And I'd move ike down. ike shouldn't be dumb enough to misstime it.

Yep, done!

I've moved Ike down, but his attack does outprioritise Zelda. It's just the startup lag that hinders him. I think I'll put him in the unbeatable section because players of equal skill won't be messing up, so Ike wouldn't mess up the timing.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Yep, done!

I've moved Ike down, but his attack does outprioritise Zelda. It's just the startup lag that hinders him. I think I'll put him in the unbeatable section because players of equal skill won't be messing up, so Ike wouldn't mess up the timing.

yeah... most of the time he'll be using fair or Eruption anyway it doesn't come up too often.

I do love the multihits of Usmash though.... the can activate counter for ike OR marth with the early hits and still hit him after he counters with the later hits.

 

[Discolicious]

How is the up smash DI'ed? I've heard you can DI the last hit

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

How is the up smash DI'ed? I've heard you can DI the last hit

that's a rumor and is completely unture. you can do absolutely nothing to get out of it.

 

[-Mars-]

Woooah are you sure? I swear i've Di'ed it and have had people do it to me.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Woooah are you sure? I swear i've Di'ed it and have had people do it to me.

*grabs marsulas's leg and squeezes really hard*

YOU CAN'T DO IT OKAY!

NOD YOUR HEAD AND AGREE WITH ME

 

[-Mars-]

Lol, oh I thought you were serious*reminds himself to learn sarcasm better*.......ya ya definitely nothing you can do.

 

[Villi]

*wario waft*

 

[Oh Snap]

I just got pummeled to the sky by Ganon's downB when I used Usmash

I think we traded hits...

Yeah I'll link Kafetei's page to the 1st post when I don't feel lazy hehe.

 

[Oh Snap]

Late update.

If only her fair/bair had the sweetspot size of Ness' bair. I wouldn't mind the cutdown of power, though.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

this move is good... really good.

I think I'll leave it to someone else to explain the basics of this attack because you should all know them already.

Some tactics I uses with lightining kicks:

1. ledge release -> rising fair. It's a great way to get back onto the stage and it aims low so it can even hit small charcters fairly reliably if they don't expect it and sheild it.
2. run off ledge -> bair. This move is pretty much a guarunteed stagespike KO if the foe doesn't avoid it. they often WILL avoid it, but I like the payout... I deem the reward worth the risk.
3. Powersheild -> SH LK. Quite simply... you shold learn to punish anything you powersheild. and most atatcks can be punished with a ligthing kick.
4. grab release wario -> fair. poor poor wario.
5. ledgedrop -> LK if the foe is below you at an angle... it doesn't connect often, but if it's ever unnexpected, boy does it hurt.
6. platform chase -> LK. if the foe is above you, you have an easier time landing LKs... and are far less punishable for it.
7. Sourspot LK -> LK. self explanitory
8. dair on grounded enemy -> LK. Also self explanitory.
9. predict airdodge -> LK. It should **** anyone who is coming out of an airdodge for a nice EASY LK. you might wanna use this for Uair though, depending on the situation.
10. SH Fair-> bair crossover. always a very fun way to punish spotdodgers!
11. Sourspotted LK gimps. certain foes like falco and ness are pretty easily gimped during their recoveries by even the lightest of attacks.
12. (standing on edge) non-powersheild-> LK. the sheildpush knocks you off the edge of the stage and pretty much anything the foe threw at you will leave them prone long enough to sweetspot them with your instant aerial.

that's all for now... I'm feeling tired

 

[-Mars-]

Tired on Halloween?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Tired on Halloween?

<_< don't judge me. I've been averaging 5 hours of sleep a night during the school week.

and, believe it or not, unlike the normal college student, no that's not because of partying or sex.

 

[Oh Snap]

This move really screws Zelda's air game, IMO.

I wish she had a different fair/bair =P

 

[Kataefi]

I always see this as THE comeback move when you're down one stock!

Wow!, sonic pretty much covered everything. I love doing 10. It can be considerd a very viable means of approaching at times. I find it also works on rollers, particularly lucario.

It's best to fast fall them as well. I love doing SH Fair with no fast fall, but I almost always fast wall a SH Bair or Bair in general.

 

[MRTW113]

Ah, the cornerstone of Zelda's aerial game: Lightning Kicks. Not much to say except fall-falling helps a lot to hit, especially on smaller opponents. Fair is a good attack while on the offensive as you can space it, and for me, bair is used as a retreat or surprise kill attack since the sweetspot is closer and it KOs faster.

 

[RoyalBlood]

I always see this as THE comeback move when you're down one stock!

This^ ;3
It helps you in a comeback, it kills Peach from FD center at 60% (fresh) ;o
It kills Fox also at 60% at the center of PS
When facing Heavy Weights the sweetspot may vary, it hits from very weird angles like the leg :o

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

This^ ;3
It helps you in a comeback, it kills Peach from FD center at 60% (fresh) ;o
It kills Fox also at 60% at the center of PS
When facing Heavy Weights the sweetspot may vary, it hits from very weird angles like the leg :o

o: that SOUNDS good.... but down+B kills fox from 0% damage from the center of FD!

 

[-Mars-]

o: that SOUNDS good.... but down+B kills fox from 0% damage from the center of FD!

lol

10ftilts

 

[SwastikaPyle]

The sweetspot doesn't change but it can appear to change because the bair and fair have different spots. I personally favor the bair because the sweetspot is a bit closer to her body and easier to land (also stronger). The bair seems to be inside her heel while the fair is just outside of it.

 

[-Mars-]

Not to mention the bair is a lot faster.......it's also a good OoS tactic.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

the difference in range and power is hard to notice IMO.... but the difference in speed is not. Bair is faster.